Reform Prison Tsar: No Reason Why Men Shouldn’t be Accommodated in Women’s Prisons
Reform UK’s new justice adviser says biologically male trans women shouldn’t face a blanket ban from female prisons. The Telegraph has the story.
Vanessa Frake, a former prison governor who oversaw the detention of Rose West and Myra Hindley, has joined Nigel Farage’s party. …
In an interview to mark her appointment as an adviser, she said that trans women should not automatically be barred from women’s prisons.
Ms Frake called for cases to be assessed “on an individual basis” and said that sexual offenders may need to be held in a male facility.
She told the Times: “There are equally vile women as there possibly are trans women. So it’s all about the risk assessments for me, and each has to be done on an individual basis.”
The former governor, who also served as head of security at HMP Wormwood Scrubs, said trans prisoners she had overseen were “accepted” by other inmates.
“People who want to just say a blanket ban clearly have never stepped foot in a prison and seen how prison runs and how see how risk assessments on individuals happen,” she added. …
In February, Mr Farage attacked “transgender indoctrination” in Britain, but he has previously defended his record on trans rights, pointing to some trans people who had served as elected representatives in Ukip, his former party.
Asked if he agreed with Ms Frake’s stance, Mr Farage said on Monday: “I personally never worked in a prison, so I can’t answer [that].” …
Figures published last year show that two thirds of trans women prisoners are sex offenders.
Worth reading in full.
Stop Press: Labour MPs are openly rebelling against the Supreme Court’s ruling that “sex” means biological sex, according to the Telegraph.
Stop Press 2: Nigel Farage has doubled down on Vanessa Frake’s position, saying whether trans women should be accommodated in women’s prisons should be determined by a “risk assessment”.
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Reform are coming perilously close to losing my support.
As a new Party they have to find their way, but they appear to be in danger of losing it.
Don’t its the Uniparty play book they will try to destroy it by planting people like Vanessa Fake.
Rubbish. Open your eyes. The person doing most damage to the anti Uniparty cause is Farage himself. Wonder who started the “rumours” about his ill health? Well the only person talking about it is the man himself. He’s planning his exit so if Reform get anywhere near the keys to number 10, he’ll hand over to MZY and Hey Presto, our first Muslim PM. Farage & Yusuf aren’t the answer to the Uniparty, they are controlled opposition. I’m watching where Rupert Lowe chooses to go and I’ll follow. Now that’s a true leader and he’d make an excellent PM
I’m afraid so 😵💫
They lost mine some time ago and I was a branch Treasurer. They’ve also lost the support of entire branches which have shut down. Welcome to the party, better late than never
Somebody we met in Salisbury at a New Culture Forum event in Salisbury told me that Farage was a Fabian.
I know for a fact (100%) that’s not true, but he does seem like a Wolf in Sheep’s Clothing.
It is important to listen to people who clearly know what they are talking about. I imagine a person with male XY chromosomes but who has had his offensive equipment removed is not likely to be a sexual predator.
Well that’s my opinion, which is the same as my position on toilets and changing rooms. At least you know a man has made the full commitment to living as a woman if he’s gotten rid of his tackle and now possesses a fauxgina, breasts and looks the part, therefore he can surely never be considered a sex pest. I would have no problems using she/her pronouns or getting changed next to them. Penis owners obviously belong in a men’s prison.
The main thing these people should never be allowed to do is enter women’s sports, as they’d obviously still have a male advantage.
If there’s a Y, they’re a guy… and the same advantages exist, wherever they find themselves, for at least as long as their body can stand the rigours of putting the wrong hormones into it, and osteoporosis sets in…
Even then they seem to display remarkable levels of what might be termed ‘male anger’, and is apparently the very last thing they relinquish.
They do not belong with vulnerable women, regardless of the state of their genitals.
I think you have a very over-simplistic view of this issue. Where is your evidence that these MtF trans people display’ ”remarkable levels” of ‘male anger’? The amount of testosterone somebody has in their body does not automatically translate to them being more aggressive. Anger and aggression are emotions, they’re psychological. And these individuals have a marked decrease in testosterone anyway, due to cross-sex hormones and reassignment surgery.
I think there’s something to be said for Frake’s assertion that cases need to be looked at on an individual basis.
The biggest threat a woman faces when she goes to a women’s prison is violence from other inmates, but this pales in comparison compared to the risk from both physical and sexual violence a man faces in a male prison. So can you imagine what a field day these male inmates would have if a feminized MtF trans person gets admitted? They’d have to be kept separate with the nonces for additional protection. Put this person in a women’s prison and I can’t see how they would pose any greater risk than the worst, most violent women already doing time there.
All that is beside the point; which is that they are not women. Give into this and the same tautological arguments could apply to say women’s shelters etc.
if they don’t want to be in men’s prisons, build gender neutral ones.
i can’t see why they get a choice anyway.
It’s not besides the point, though. Let’s say, hypothetically, we have a MtF version of Lucy Connolly or Wayne O’Rourke. Two political prisoners banged up merely for posting angry tweets. Clearly they are non-violent, they couldn’t make any more changes to their bodies if they tried and they’ve been living as women for many years. Would you seriously send them to a male prison based purely on their sex chromosomes? Can’t you see the sense in what Frake is saying in that people need to be looked at on an individual basis if they’re situation is more complex than your average offender? I think sending my hypothetical trans person to a men’s prison would be an infringement upon their human rights and their right to dignity, respect, and above all, a risk to their personal safety.
Now contrast that with another MtF person who goes on a mass stabbing spree and is clearly violent and dangerous. Where would we put them? So this issue is far from as cut and dried as many people seem to think. I defer to experts and people with considerable experience, such as Frake, in such matters.
Well said Mogs. Vanessa Frake comes across as a sensible practical woman with direct experience of day to day management of prisons & prisoners. I’d trust her advice anytime. Wouldn’t trust Farage at all
Cheers, Liz. Yes I’m just trying to be realistic here and I think too many people see this as a black and white issue and want to reduce everybody down to their sex chromosomes and that’s the end of it. If a man has had all the relevant surgeries/medical interventions and has been living as a woman for years and gets convicted of a non-violent crime, should this person really be sent to a male prison based purely on the fact they’re biologically male? Contrast with a man who gets sent down for raping a woman or physically attacking a woman, then once he’s inside he doesn’t really like prison life very much so decides he wants to identify as a woman in order to get himself transfered to a female prison, which acts as a nice incentive for such a human scumbag because he”ll be locked up with an endless supply of victims. I mean, the variables are endless here, which is why I keep saying it’s great Frake is highlighting the fact that these more complex cases need assessed on an individual basis. I think it’s ridiculous to discount somebody with such a wealth of experience in this… Read more »
i wonder if he’d make such a commitment if he had to pay for the surgery, hormones etc on his own dime rather than the increasing quantity of incandescent with rage taxpayers.
No woman could feel entirely safe even then.
Males are on average stronger and more aggressive. They should not be put in prisons with females.
Frake is saying that no man is average, and each case should be judged on its merits.
What is wrong with that?
I think it comes down to a comment made elsewhere – why do we have separate men’s and women’s prisons? If we don’t think there is a good reason for that, then we can change it. But then why have any separate facilities then? Some may think it an arbitrary distinction. Why not separate them according to some other set of criteria that are more relevant? It’s a point of view – not one I especially share (I don’t care who I share toilet facilities with, but I am a man). But if you have separate facilities, then saying some men can be mixed with women just doesn’t make sense to me and seems to be accepting that they have somehow sort of become women, which seems like nonsense to me.
You don’t do nuance at all then? Just deal in absolutes? I thought we were grown ups in this forum. I suggest you watch Vanessa Frames interview on GBNEWS. I’m sure it’ll be available on YouTube
I like to think I do nuance.
Rather than calling me a child, feel free to provide some counter arguments to the points I have made above.
Because it implies that men can be treated as women men if they play nicely.
and, that the actual women are obliged to pretend that they are.
in other words, you must believe that men can become women at will.
its not about being kind, it’s about knowing what is true and working with that.
So you think women are at risk from gay men?
Unfortunately they are not all gay, as the prison service in Scotland has recently found out.
Sex-change can involve a number of step changes, and different conditions. Some are content with dressing and behaving, living the lifestyle, of a female, others do thus then go on to undergo pharmaceutical treatment to bring about physiological changes but stop short of surgery. Others go the whole mile.
Given the number of rapes in women’s prisons by other inmates who are biological males “identifying” as women, clearly offensive equipment was still intact.
So? Still not a woman.
Sometimes experts are wrong.
I think a man will always have physical advantage over a woman, whether he has his bits cut off or not.
From the photo, it looks as if Ms Frake is also trans.
Nigel doing anything to appeal to the widest range of voters…
Surprised she is not Black, Mongolian, Ecuadorean mix of a Trans. Farage is missing the plot.
She started her career at Holloway, in 1986, well before all this nonsense started. She is married to another woman and, like many gay women has adopted a short hairstyle.
“Mr Farage attacked “transgender indoctrination” in Britain, but he has previously defended his record on trans rights”
Oh for goodness sake what are “trans rights” you dummy? What rights do “trans” people NOT enjoy that others do? The leader of the UKs only right wing party is using the bullshit language of the woke left.
Equality means everyone has the same Rights, yet we have women’s Rights, Gay Rights, workers Rights, Trans Rights.
Oddly there are no men’s Rights, Straight Rights, employer’s Rights, or Rights for Anglo-Saxon-Celt Peoples, and no anti-discrimination legislation protecting them.
Something’s not “right”.
Most of these rights are really just grift, a way to game the rules of the system to get an advantage..
Deep down everyone knows this but they sort of accept it out of some strange sense of fairness, persuaded by the proposition that this group or that are somehow disadvantaged and so the system needs to be gamed a bit in their favour.
Farage will say anything to get more gullible people to support him and subscribe. He’s totally untrustworthy as I and many other Reform branch workers know to our cost. Don’t ever question Nigel Fragile or you’re OUT
I am afraid my default assumption is that all politicians are to an extent untrustworthy. I would like them to have much less power, but my fellow citizens seem mainly to disagree. Failing that I just want the ones who will do the least damage, who are not completely beyond hope. Reform seem to tick that box, for now.
She often appears on GB News and does know what she is talking about and I would probably bow to her experience on an area like this especially as she rejects the blanket acceptance of men with penises being put in women’s prisons. With some of the people that are joining Reform we are seeing people with experience in the area they are to comment on. This is the complete opposite of the government where ignorance and incompetence are rife. I always thought she looked like a lesbian.
She should be sectioned.
Her experience is in prisons not psychiatry or sex-dysphoria.
She looks like a man
So? She’s a lesbian married to another woman and has short hair. You have a problem with that little boy?
Yes, you’re probably aware there’s quite a few bigots dwell on this site. They can be assured of getting regular validation on their views, therefore they feel encouraged and empowered.
These are the people who ‘other’ and disparage anybody who doesn’t look like them, act like them or think like them. Quite the echo chamber for certain individuals, this site.
She’s married to a woman… so, yes.
‘Biologically Male Trans Women’Frake should be expelled from the party immediately for that insane statement. She is saying that a male with a penis can be a woman, she needs help in a mental hospital.
“Trans” means across. “Trans women” is gibberish.
Correctly, a man who considers himself to be a woman because of a well recognised mental disorder – dysphoria – may be physically and/or physiologically transformed to resemble a woman. This used to be called, aptly, a sex-change.
A mentally disordered person who thinks they are Augustus Caesar is not a “Trans emperor”.
Time to reclaim the English language instead of allowing words to be manipulated to further political and ideological aims.
If Nigel Farage carries on the way he’s going, he will discover New Labour.
I think he needs to decide what Reform UK is.
Farage wants to be all things to all people. He doesn’t actually want to be PM – he’d hand over to MZY in the blink of an eye. Can you imagine him being interested in the day to day business of government? It would bore him to death. Look at his track record ,- he never crosses the finishing line
I have cancelled my membership of Reform. I cannot support a party with extreme views and insane ideology. I now have no party to vote for except Britain First. Unlikely to have a candidate in my area.
I am sure Reform are breathing a sigh of relief.
You never had a membership to cancel. You were a subscriber, nothing more. You had no rights. It’s Nigel’s way or the highway, Reform doesn’t do democracy
This isn’t particularlty surprising: The more Reform becomes real-world political force, the more interesting does it become to people who “invest in elections” to ensure that political choices are made in their favour. As can be seen by an influx of faux experts who use appeals to authority to support certain policy choices. Like Vanessa Frake does here.
Separate comment avoid conflating the two logical criticisms: This also strikes as circular. I think Frake’s real stance on expertise could be worded as
Because I’m favour of transisms, I have put men in women’s jails and therefore, my expertise with men in women’s jails qualifies me to judge whether or not men should be put into women’s jails while people who are opposed to this policiy have no expertise with implementing it and hence, are not qualified to have an opinion on that.
Excellent point.
The question of risk is a matter that is entirely separate from the trans ideology and whether or not the latter should be accepted, even if there were no risk. Is it to be believed – and be recognised in law, and taught as an equivalent to biology – that someone born male can, if they have had all their genitalia completely removed and have been reconstructed to have some physical resemblance to a person born female, be deemed to be a woman, even if their body cannot produce neither male nor female gametes? A person born female who has had a hysterectomy cannot produce female gametes. Is she therefore no longer female but in some unsexual state? Can Reform, should Reform, defend feminism at the point it had reached before the trans ideology? This is not the world of the 19th century. To do so would not be conservatism, but would be conservative of that point of development. At the very least, this announcement from Reform demonstrates that they are unlikely to think conservatively, should that be required. It may be the case that there would not be widespread public support for it. Nevertheless, it is certain that Reform… Read more »
Nigel needs to get rid of people like this, she is undoubtedly someone who has joined to cause this sort of disruption in the Party and bring it into disrepute, probably a Labour/Conservative plant.
Get shot if they don’t know the difference between a Male and Female the SNP/ Lib Dems or Labour will probably be a better fit.
Farage seems to be very wishy-washy with regards to his stance on Muslims, migrants and now the trans ideology.
It’s like he’s pandering to all of them because he’s worried about upsetting anyone. Well I don’t think it’s going to be from these camps that he’ll be getting his votes anyway so I think he should just be more plain-speaking and consistent, like Orban or Trump. People would respect him more for it and Reform voters wouldn’t be inclined to jump ship due to losing confidence in the man.
But another aspect to consider, regarding the above article, is the amount of male cons who only decide they want to be a woman *after* they’ve been arrested or sent down. This is so commonplace it’s like a formula now. So the male paedo or sex offender, for example, wants to start identifying as female and wishes to undergo a sex-change but also wants to transfer to a women’s prison because ‘trans rights are human rights’. The UK isn’t so bad for this but countries such as the US, Germany and Spain are dreadful for allowing ‘intact’ violent men in women’s prisons just because that’s how they identify.
Must admit, from that photo I thought it was 2 blokes, one of them Farage.
By all means get people with real world knowledge of their subject matter, but not if they also support some deranged ideology that has been officially explained and defined by our so-called Supreme Court – as surprising as that decision was considering the provenance of that particular “court”.
So you form your opinion of someone from a single photo? Really? How about watching the interview on GBNEWS and then see what you think of her opinion? Just a thought
We are in a war in Britain today. A war being fought against Truth, and in this war we need, as all military commanders do, to decide which are hills to die on, to be taken at all costs. This is not a hill to die on. Nigel Farage is the most courageous and effective political leader of my lifetime, although Margaret Thatcher probably ties with him. Unlike Thatcher he has suffered physical abuse, threats to his family, and attempts on his life. I can live with this policy, strange though it may seem, particularly if it stems from someone who has real-world experience, and doesn’t make blanket statements but suggests things are taken on a case by case basis. Real world experience is an asset in itself, something rare in Britain’s Left-leaning political class and public sector bureaucracy. We should remember that the hills to die on are: Mass uncontrolled immigration The Net Zero/ Climate change enslavement agenda Freedom of Speech, as stamped on by the Online Harms Act. Unlike the Conservatives, Labour, Lib Dems and so-called “Greens”, who are committed to supporting these outrages, Reform are pledged to address these strategic hills, and will face enough pushback from… Read more »
I do agree, its by no stretch a hill to die on! However giving a free pass to such egregious and just plain wrong ideas and ideologies can in sum become very corrosive. What consenting adults do to themselves and each other is of no concern or interest to me, if it is illegal it should be treated as such. What does bother me, is when their fetishes or perversions – or whatever you may chose to call them impact others who do not choose their influence or choices! If its wrong to allow biological males into women’s spaces (and it is), sports, changing rooms and toilets, it must also be equally wrong to admit them into women only prisons. Even if a plurality of women prisoners were to “allow” certain Trans prisoners in their midst, what of those who oppose or fear such a move? Prisoners have few rights, but women prisoners should have a right not to be abused or raped by a biological male. When I first saw this headline, I assumed I must have misread it, or that someone in Reform was pointing out it was happening (and being hidden), it had not occurred to me… Read more »
A prison governor is certainly part of the public sector bureaucracy.
I think this is key. Being idealistic about what Reform should and shouldn’t do is all fine and dandy, but in the end, it has to be deliverable. It has to work with the reality of where we are going to be, not today but in 2029 when the uniparty and blob have had four more years to entrench their positions, tie the legislation in knots and brainwash themselves to greater and greater hysteria. Assuming Reform take the vote and become Government, It will have to force every change and every repeal through the blob. If you think, ‘Getting Brexit done’ was hard work, you aint seen nothing yet.
Making the treatment of a tiny number of prisoners a resigning matter is just pathetic, imo. You aren’t going to turn back the clock, and right now there is no alternative to Reform, unless you consider having the Uniparty (as George Carlin would say) shove its phallus up your bum every single day is the way to go.
That’s all very well but why are they even making a thing of it then? If it’s not important, why the announcement.
I actually do think it’s important. Truth is important. “Trans rights” is utter bullshit.
Seems like the ‘expert’ went a bit off piste, judging by how fast the ‘not our policy’ statement has come from Nige.
Farage doesn’t like anyone who expresses an opinion that he hasn’t approved in advance. He’s a control freak which is why Reform is a ltd co with no democratic control, subscribers rather than members. So many of his fanatical supporters fail to notice this important distinction
Agree tof. I have just posted similar but then I hadn’t read your post.
Other choices are available. I resigned from my position in Reform because I could see how odious Farage & his cohorts actually are and that was shortly before the Rupert Lowe saga became public. I’m watching what direction Rupert Lowe chooses to go and I’ll follow his lead. I’ve joined his Restore Britain movement which is an open forum unlike Reform which is a dictatorship. Rupert Lowe is a true leader, Farage is not
Margaret Thatcher nearly lost her life in the Brighton bombing.
The morning after that appalling event was IMHO her finest hour, Hux. I remember it well: conference started on time, she stood there immaculately turned out, hair done, make up on, jewellery on. What a woman, the courage and fortitude! She showed the IRA that they would not win whilst she was in charge. RIP Norman Tebbit who was stretchered out of the rubble in his PJs and covered in dust.
The very idea of comparing her to the charlatan Farage makes me feel sick
This issue is really a non issue that does not warrant Farage or Reform making public statements on. Why did he have to get involved in trans issues which in any case affect a miniscule percentage of the population? Why deliberately seek to antagonise the ordinary British man or woman? All this will achieve is a negative response. Such stupidity calls in to question the validity of Farage as potential PM material. On this showing he’s out of his depth. Massively.
You mean more out of his depth than most if not all recent PMs.
Regrettably, talented, can do, qualified, knowledgeable people with successful life and business experience are loathe to team up with Farage. He has a penchant for throwing them under buses should they draw acclaim and attention away from the narcissistic Farage.
Spot on Smudger. Rupert Lowe had to go and MZY even reported him to the police. MZY should be prosecuted for wasting police time
I wish I could give you 100 upticks!
Do not even mention that charlatan Farage in the same breath as the Blessed Margaret
I think she is trying to bring a degree of realism to the discussion. I’ll start by stating my belief anyone who thinks they are born in the wrong body has a mental health condition that needs treatment, which is not stuffing them full of drugs and carrying out unnecessary surgery on their body. I also firmly believe that someone who commits a crime, any crime, and has a Damascene conversion to think they are born in the wrong body should never see the inside of the prison they are trying to get into. Born a man, commit a crime and then claim you are not a man and you should go straight to a male prison. But, and this is a huge but, if a man, years ago, had the surgery to change his appearance so he now looks like a woman and this week commits a crime entirely unrelated to his condition, it is probably better for him and the management of the prison that he goes into a women’s facility.
I think the central question which seems to be being avoided is: Why do we have separate Men’s and Women’s prisons?
Either the prisoners are being adequately protected from each other (as well as being confined) or they’re not. If not, why not?
Good question. From what one reads they are not being adequately protected from each other, and putting men in women’s prisons is certainly not going to help that. But the people who think it’s OK to put some men but not others in women’s prisons need to explain their logic.
Vanessa Frake did explain that yesterday on GBNEWS. I’m sure the interview will be available on YouTube
Well she’s a firkin big help.
FFS !
These ‘risk assessments’… are they completed with the same thoroughness as the ones that have allowed prisoners to be put in a place where they can assault prison officers, have sex with female wardens and allow Muslim gangs to take over entire wings?
Meanwhile, TR has joined Ben Habib’s AdvanceUK…. https://www.youtube.com/live/2KREK7-J0KQ?si=D76D2emTzI8Y5I7k – Ben always seems to speak sense.
It’s when Farage says things like this I question my support for Reform.
Well the view at my Branch Reform meeting last night was extremely negative on this issue and a few members are seriously considering dropping Reform for Advance. The Reform members i know all agree that the Reform hierarchy are completely adrift of their membership.
Not members Hux, subscribers
This is a distortion of what Vanessa Frake said which people would know if they heard her interview yesterday on GBNEWS. I’m no longer a Reform or Farage supporter but Frake is a sensible woman. She isn’t in favour of a blanket ban of trans women in women’s prisons – she gave the example of someone who had been living for 30 years as a woman who had been convicted of a non sexual crime. Should s/he be forced out of her current prison and into a men’s prison? Too many people dealing in slogans and absolutes, she’s dealt with prisons and prisoners every day on her life in her former job. I would trust her advice – but I still wouldn’t trust Farage as far as I could throw him
If Reform f***s up their chances and the right vote becomes split I won’t forgive them!