In What Moral Universe Can Owen Jones Watch the Hamas Massacre Video – Then Sow Seeds of Doubt About its Horrors?

Andrew Neil has written a powerful column in today’s Mail about Owen Jones’s bizarre, 25-minute YouTube video in which he reacts to being shown footage of Hamas’s barbaric attacks on October 7th. Here is an extract:

While accepting – several times – that Hamas did indeed commit war crimes on that terrible first Saturday of October, Jones nevertheless proceeds to nitpick, undermine, question and sow seeds of suspicion about the veracity of parts of the video. It is a worrying, disturbing, chilling, often irrational performance which descends into incoherence as it reaches its weary end.

Jones regards the IDF video as Israeli propaganda designed to justify the death and suffering that it has since rained down on northern Gaza in retaliation for October 7th.

If that is its purpose, then it has clearly failed. As the death toll of civilians, including thousands of women and children, mounted while much of Gaza City was reduced to rubble, public opinion across the globe has turned against Israel, as it always does when it responds to some terrorist atrocity.

Even America, the only ally that matters to Israel, is insisting that – with hostilities breaking out again now hostage swaps are over – the IDF must be more careful, considered and proportionate in its efforts to wipe out Hamas.

Israel has indicated it is listening and will behave differently in the next phase of its war on Hamas. But Jones is wrong. The real purpose of the video was not to pave the way for Israel’s invasion of Gaza. It was to show the world exactly what Israel is up against.

How can you negotiate with people capable of such barbarism? What is the point when the Hamas leadership has already pledged to launch more October 7s the moment it has re-established the capacity to do so.

Its aim is not to force Israel to the bargaining table but to wipe it off the map. It revels in killing Jews simply because they are Jews. Exactly what kind of ‘peace deal’ can you do with people committed to your extermination?

Throughout his long ramble, oddly cold and calculating, Jones fails to confront or respond to any of these points. Instead, he concentrates – curiously, perhaps even immorally – on trying to establish that, though Hamas are indeed evil, perhaps they are not quite as evil as the Israelis are making out… and anyway there are lots of evil Israelis too.

It has long been an outrageous conceit of the British hard Left – and proof positive of its moral bankruptcy – that Hamas, a bloodthirsty terrorist group, and the IDF, the military arm of a thriving, disputatious democracy under constant threat, are two sides of the same coin.

Jones is certainly keen to give Hamas the benefit of the doubt and cut its killers the sort of slack he would never grant the IDF. He accepts that Israeli women and children were massacred but is strangely keen to point out that the IDF video provides no “conclusive evidence” that babies were beheaded, women raped and children killed “intentionally”. What kind of bizarre mindset, what sort of moral vacuum leads anybody to posit such crazy caveats?

Worth reading in full.

Stop Press: Brendan O’Neill had a similar reaction to Andrew Neil when viewing the Owen Jones reaction video. He writes: “It provides the starkest proof yet of the collapse of moral reason and plain decency that has occurred on the middle-class left these past seven weeks.” You can read the rest of his piece in Spiked.

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varmint
2 years ago

He will probably get some thumbs up on this website from the Islamophiles that post here. But then Toby, you believe in free speech and so do I, so we cannot complain when that speech might be abhorrent can we?

Tyrbiter
Tyrbiter
2 years ago
Reply to  varmint

Makes it easier to recognise your enemies.

transmissionofflame
2 years ago
Reply to  varmint

I don’t think there are many “Islamophiles” that post here. Most of the anti-Israel stuff seems more motivated by dislike of Israel, rejection of “Zionism”. I seem to find myself instinctively pro-Israel in this discussion, but some of the points made here about the recent history of Israel do seem to me valid.

varmint
2 years ago

Well maybe you need to review your assessment as I see I have 5 down votes and you have 4.

Mathison
Mathison
2 years ago
Reply to  varmint

11 down votes for you now.

Mogwai
2 years ago
Reply to  varmint

Let’s hope no female family member of Jones ever reports being raped as he’d no doubt not believe her until forensic evidence was forthcoming as proof she was telling the truth. Or not, if the female happened to be non-Jewish, seemingly. And why wouldn’t these women be believed and taken at their word? Shall we start by looking at what the Islamic teachings say about taking infidel women as sex slaves? Shall we go ask some Yazidi women who recount their personal experiences after being enslaved by the barbarians, or do Hamas adhere to higher moral standards than ISIS? FFS! And the silence and lack of condemnation of Hamas from so-called ‘Feminist/Women’s rights groups’ the world over has simultaneously been deafening and spoke volumes; ”Sarah Hendriks, deputy director at UN Women, was pressed in a CNN interview on Wednesday about the group’s silence on the issue. Hendriks said that the agency is “deeply alarmed at the disturbing reports of gender-based and sexual violence on October 7,” adding that “we absolutely unequivocally condemn all forms of violence against women and girls.” CNN anchor Bianna Golodryga asked Hendriks why the group has failed to “specifically call out Hamas” in the wake of… Read more »

Scunnered
2 years ago
Reply to  Mogwai

We already know of the contempt in which Jones holds women.

varmint
2 years ago
Reply to  Mogwai

All so called truth seekers will tear strips off anything Christian or Jewish. They will mock the old testament (probably rightly so). Even powerful voices like Richard Dawkins though who famously rips into religion will draw back from any criticism of Islam. ——Why? Because they don’t want to risk being shot on their doorstep

Mathison
Mathison
2 years ago
Reply to  varmint

You’re just a racist Varmint. That’s clear.

varmint
2 years ago
Reply to  Mathison

A “racist”? —— Lets ask all the parents of the thousands of young wite girls raped by mainly Pakistani men in places like Rotherham. Telford, Oxford etc if they are happy to be called “racist” by idiots deciding it is better not to upset multicultural dogma than arrest these scum. Are you aware that also in places like Sweeden, Denmark and Germany that many many times more sexual assaults and rapes are committed by immigrants.? Or don’t you even care? Does it make people “racist” for pointing that out?

Mathison
Mathison
2 years ago
Reply to  varmint

There are way more white rapists – check the data. You hate Muslims because you are a racist.

varmint
2 years ago
Reply to  Mathison

I didn’t use the word hate….You did.——- I don’t approve of people cutting of a girls clitoris.——- Is that racist? Nope it isn’t.—- I don’t approve of wanting to execute apostates. —-Is that racist? No, it is not. I don’t approve of women having to provide 4 male witnesses to their rape. Is that racist? ——-No way. —I don’t approve of stoning women to death for so called adultery and making sure the stones are not big enough so the woman dies quickly. —-Is that racist? —-Nope, none of anything I have said is in the least bit racist. ————You are simply a race card player trying to defend the indefensible.

Coup detat
2 years ago
Reply to  Mathison

Bingo!

Mathison
Mathison
2 years ago
Reply to  Mogwai

Read the Talmud. It’s all the same.

Coup detat
2 years ago
Reply to  Mathison

They don’t know what that is Mathison.. Never heard of it That’s the problem.
They are ignorant, ignorance created by the msm….

godknowsimgood
godknowsimgood
2 years ago
Reply to  varmint

Are you trying to be ironic or sarcastic or something? Believing in free speech doesn’t mean you can’t complain, or criticise or condemn abhorrent speech.

Coup detat
2 years ago
Reply to  godknowsimgood

When you post an article from The Times of Israel who knows where she’s at…..

Dinger64
2 years ago
Reply to  Coup detat

Oh hello! I thought you said you’d done with DS?

Coup detat
2 years ago
Reply to  Dinger64

I have…. TY won’t be getting a penny more off me..

Is that alright with you…

Dinger64
2 years ago
Reply to  Coup detat

Crickey, just wondered! it was stated in your post after all

huxleypiggles
2 years ago
Reply to  Coup detat

Post of the day.😀

Epi
Epi
2 years ago
Reply to  Coup detat

It’s all right – look it up!

varmint
2 years ago
Reply to  godknowsimgood

I am not sure what you mean. I will rephrase —. I did not say we cannot complain about abhorrent speech. I said we should not complain that the abhorrent speech appears.

godknowsimgood
godknowsimgood
2 years ago
Reply to  varmint

So you think Toby Young wasn’t complaining about the abhorrence of Owen Jones’s speech, but that he was only complaining that it has appeared!

varmint
2 years ago
Reply to  godknowsimgood

I am sorry——–I will have to leave this discussion for the moment. I really don’t get what you are on about.

NeilParkin
2 years ago
Reply to  varmint

It is the inevitable outcome of the ‘hierarchy of oppression’, that seems to operate in the minds of the left rather than a simple moral code of who did right and who did wrong.

If you do terrible things…but…against someone who you believe is oppressing you, then you kind of get a free pass to do it. Like poor people let off for shop lifting, or Ecowarriors found not guilty of things they plainly did. Israel’s actions are its right to defend its borders and people, but are seen as ‘oppressing’ the Palestinians. There is no ‘right vs wrong’, there is no nuance, and no proportionality. It is a false morality, where victimhood triumphs over all.

Scunnered
2 years ago
Reply to  NeilParkin

100%; accurate observation.

Mathison
Mathison
2 years ago
Reply to  NeilParkin

Israel is the occupier in case you forgot. Why didn’t it defend itself when it had been warned by more than one nation and its own security force of an impending attack and when Israel itself released footage of Hamas training IN THE OPEN?

varmint
2 years ago
Reply to  NeilParkin

Which is why Social Justice Stinks and Equal Justice is the only real justice. But the Liberal Progressive virus is spreading all over the western world faster than covid.

Dinger64
2 years ago
Reply to  varmint

The very picture of Owen Jones above speaks volumes to me!

Scunnered
2 years ago
Reply to  Dinger64

It really is a face you’d never tire of slapping.

Mathison
Mathison
2 years ago
Reply to  Dinger64

Yep – the Sayanim are out in force. Just can’t help themselves.

Free Lemming
2 years ago

Andrew Neil? And Spiked? Giving their opinion on morals? They can f*ck off. Filthy pieces of sh*t.

Dinger64
2 years ago
Reply to  Free Lemming

Please don’t hold back Lem, say what you really feel! 🤣

DHJ
DHJ
2 years ago

If you hear reports then watch a video and that video does not provide evidence supporting those reports, why is stating this an issue?

If only the COVID Inquiry could be equally observant.

Jane G
Jane G
2 years ago
Reply to  DHJ

What is annoying is how certain viewpoints are taken on trust and others are doubted unless documentary, forensic, sworn testimony and live footage with UN observers provided.

Mathison
Mathison
2 years ago
Reply to  DHJ

Exactly. Shames Jones didn’t do the same forensic work with the jabs.

Coup detat
2 years ago

Israel knew all about what was going to occur on the 7th a year prior to the event.

With the knowledge of how Israel/Mossad have been directly involved in many other global atrocities over the years I’d personally say they were involved and orchestrated this event.

Screenshot_20231202_093612_com.android.chrome
A Y M
2 years ago
Reply to  Coup detat

These days, if it’s hard to believe an atrocity could be allowed to happen to further political ends, and wild horrific propaganda is made to stir up the tribes, well if you haven’t learned your dog is being wagged, there’s not much hope for you.

Coup detat
2 years ago
Reply to  A Y M

This is paramount AYM..

Until people wake up, theres very little point in anything.
Iam wholly absorbed by the futility…

A Y M
2 years ago
Reply to  Coup detat

Yeah me too but I try (often fail) to not let it get to me and just accept that people wake up (if at all) in their own time and there is not a lot that can be done about it, and it’s not worth getting down about it/them.

Just point it out and hope the cognitive dissonance breaks one day.

Jane G
Jane G
2 years ago
Reply to  A Y M

There is plenty of doubt flying around.

I still wonder how Oct 7 was able to happen, given the Intelligence from Egypt and the famously OTT status of Israeli security. I’ve wondered about that from the beginning.

Maybe the paraglider thing is how Hamas got around pressure sensors – I just don’t know, I’m not a security expert.

I do know that I’ve been rocked to the core at the savagery of what happened on that day and can’t find it in me to support a people who can do this.

(*Cue an Owen Jones- style dismissal of any footage or claims )

I just don’t want the fall-out happening in my back yard.

A Y M
2 years ago
Reply to  Jane G

Assuming that the savagery of that day was exactly how it was portrayed (which it clearly was not, or at least there is scant evidence of it like 40 beheaded babies, rapes…) and assuming many of the deaths were not a result of “friendly fire” and that warnings from IDF soldiers threatened by higher ups for saying something was happening behind the walls…etc) meant this was all a big surprise (cock-up):

Assuming everything Israel media and regime representatives say about that day was true, how can you support the savagery of the response?

Is it not possible to hold both actions insupportable AND not lay blame on the entire collectivities, be they Palestinians, or be they Israelis?

Or is one worse than the other?

Jane G
Jane G
2 years ago
Reply to  A Y M

I think you are presuming to read my mind and making some wrong assumptions. Don’t accuse people of things you might be doing yourself.

Many things don’t add up in this business. I didn’t mention beheaded babies; that report was downgraded within a couple of days but the story was beamed around the world by then.

I have heard what seem to be trustworthy reports of abominable acts done to pregnant women; I’ve seen the response of bystanders to released hostages. You will question how much of this is actually true and how much is CGI or something.

There is a case to be made that the Israel response has gone on long enough but it’s not my decision; in their place I might feel differently.
I just know that if my opponent’s ideology was to wipe me out I would put up a very strong resistance.

A Y M
2 years ago
Reply to  Jane G

I didn’t presume anything about your mind. I was posing a question. Hamas changed its charter a while ago. The wiping Israel off the map thing doesn’t exist. “In 2008, the Hamas leader in Gaza, Ismail Haniyeh, stated that Hamas would agree to accept a Palestinian state along the 1967 borders, and to offer a long-term truce with Israel. In 2009 interviews with the BBC, Tony Blair claimed that Hamas does not accept the existence of Israel and continues to pursue its objectives through terror and violence; Sir Jeremy Greenstock however argued that Hamas has not adopted its charter as part of its political program since it won the 2006 Palestinian legislative election. Instead it has moved to a more secular stance. In 2010, Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal stated that the Charter is “a piece of history and no longer relevant, but cannot be changed for internal reasons”. Hamas has moved away from its charter since it decided to run candidates for office. The 2017 charter accepted for the first time the idea of a Palestinian state within the borders that existed before 1967 and rejected recognition of Israel, which it terms as the “Zionist enemy”. It advocates such a… Read more »

Mathison
Mathison
2 years ago
Reply to  Jane G

And Hamas is putting up a strong resistance to those trying to wipe out Gaza. Hamas does not have the wiping out of Israel in its Charter/Covenant. That’s just another trope like the beheaded babies.

Dinger64
2 years ago
Reply to  A Y M

I must admit, the video doesn’t show a lot! Is there more of it or is it too distasteful to show? Show it in full and be damned I say!

Mathison
Mathison
2 years ago
Reply to  A Y M

Israel is worse. They are the occupiers expecting infinite sympathy from the world because of WWII. Turns out that sympathy wasn’t infinite.

Mathison
Mathison
2 years ago
Reply to  A Y M

Indeed.

Marcus Aurelius knew
2 years ago

False Flag attacks are a real thing. We must consider it as a possibility here.

That being said, I don’t yet think that’s what happened here.

But I do have many unanswered questions. Just like I have many unanswered questions about 9/11… Gravitational free fall, for example, and WTC7, and the huge lack of damage at the Pentagon.

Coup detat
2 years ago

It’s blatently clear is was a false flag event.

JFK.. CIA /Israel
911…. CIA Israel
7th Oct 23… CIA Israel /Mossad

And the next will be in the heart of Europe….

Marcus Aurelius knew
2 years ago
Reply to  Coup detat

Yes.

Coup detat
2 years ago

And you still have “unanswered questions” re 911…

Really!!!

Its about time you woke up….

A Y M
2 years ago
Reply to  Coup detat

Take it easy. He’s more awake than 99% of people out there!

Marcus Aurelius knew
2 years ago
Reply to  A Y M

Why, thank you!

Marcus Aurelius knew
2 years ago
Reply to  Coup detat

I guess I am just making the point. I know how sensitive people are.

varmint
2 years ago
Reply to  Coup detat

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Sometimes people like you believe so firmly in something that you adopt the idea that what you believe must be ultimate truth. —-I had a friend like you who got himself into a tizzy trying to tell me how the twin towers collapsed, despite having no knowledge of construction or achitecture. He was also convinced UFO’s were everywhere. ——-The problem is that when you believe things that aren’t true you get yourself into a whole lot of bother and mental breakdown is what comes next.

DHJ
DHJ
2 years ago
Reply to  varmint

“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”

Only when it doesn’t fit with the accepted worldview or a promoted narrative. Who decides what is “extraordinary”?

Coup detat
2 years ago
Reply to  varmint

You’ve never had a friend like me Varmint.. That is one thing I can assure you of…. You’re far too much of a muppet.

Ps, you never answered the question did you…. 🙄

varmint
2 years ago
Reply to  Coup detat

“Muppets” “Retards” “Plonkers” “Imbeciles” ——-Yes the Islamophile in chief on the Daily Sceptic (Coup detat) certainly has the biggest and widest name calling vocabulary. ——-And you certainly need that because your arguments are not worth a s..t. —-Name calling is all you got. ————PS— The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Go figure that one out you brainwashed dreamer.

Coup detat
2 years ago
Reply to  varmint

Never ever used “retard” so you are simply making this up now, which doesn’t suprise me..

But on reflection I your case think it’s perfectly apt.

You retard 🤣

Coup detat
2 years ago
Reply to  varmint

You are demented to bring in to this personal attack UFOs and the twin towers collapsing narrative, you’re demented because have never mentioned UFOs and only the 911 attack itself.

Mate, you really are pathetic…

varmint
2 years ago
Reply to  Coup detat

Have ever thought to read what people write first before you start your frenzied typing stacked with your favourite verbal abuse terms? Nope I don’t suppose so. ——All you need is to see the name “Varmint” and your laptop gets another bashing. ——-ha ha ha jeez .

Coup detat
2 years ago
Reply to  varmint

You’re clearly the “frenzied” party here matey boy..
I must of hit a nerve… A seriously woke one at that 😁

varmint
2 years ago
Reply to  Coup detat

My wife and I don’t watch comedy on TV anymore. ——We find we get more entertainment by just logging into the Daily Sceptic and laughing at all the funny stuff you type. ———Christ I never laughed so much at Morecambe and Wise, or Norman Wisdom. ——–The Marx Brothers were hilarious too. Do you recall the one where Groucho sneaked into a room at a party and was kissing a woman when other people came into the room and he tried to hide under a cushion on the couch —–ha ha aha jeez so funny. ————–But not nearly so funny as YOU. —ha ha ah jeezus

groucho_2363267k
Coup detat
2 years ago
Reply to  DHJ

When you come to terms and realise that they are willing to murder 3000 people on 911 for their own means the world becomes one sinister place indeed….

DHJ
DHJ
2 years ago
Reply to  Coup detat

Given history, when it comes to governments and global corporations, the question should always be: why wouldn’t they sacrifice large numbers of people to suit their own ends?

A Y M
2 years ago

I like Toby Young a lot, Owen Jones is quite annoying.

But hmmm, which one is the real skeptic in this subject matter?

How oddly the world of narratives can flip and manipulate those open to partisan and identity politics, no matter which side of the world you view things.

Andrew Neil, the worst of the covidians is now right on October 7th?

Yeah right.

Coup detat
2 years ago
Reply to  A Y M

TY and Skeptic don’t belong in the same sentence..

Time after time this is the case…. I mean who isn’t aware of Kissingers history?? ….SIX, SIX pro articles on Kissinger..

Really??? Thing is I don’t believe and it’s plain to see that he’s not stupid…. Which begs the question…
He’s sold out.. He’s a Shill..

A Y M
2 years ago
Reply to  Coup detat

I don’t agree that TY is a schill. He has always stayed within a certain Overton window. He is also consistently optimistic that the world of politics is full of mistaken people. He is friendly with many lizards in Conservative circles and I think loyal to the desire to keep things civil.

Of course I think he means well but is incapable of even entertaining the possibility the world is run by evil men, with evil plans and evil methods.

Coup detat
2 years ago
Reply to  A Y M

You can keep things civil and still remain balanced in regards to reporting Kissingers obituary.. Which would have meant at least one article that “questions” even his decades of unfriendly policies.. Blimey, is that too much to ask from an alleged “alternative” media source??

I don’t think it is…which begs the question…

A Y M
2 years ago
Reply to  Coup detat

No it is definitely not too much to ask.

varmint
2 years ago
Reply to  Coup detat

When you say “civil” does that include calling people “morons” “plonkers” and “imbeciles”? Because that is what you do regularly. Maybe no one should be getting any lessons in civility from the likes of you.

A Y M
2 years ago
Reply to  varmint

Moron and Plonker? Really? Don’t think so.
I may have lost my temper and said imbecile once.
I guess you are keeping score on civility then.

Coup detat
2 years ago
Reply to  varmint

Only where is due Varmint, only where’s its due…
You plonker… 😁

Dinger64
2 years ago
Reply to  Coup detat

I’m a plonker,moron and an imbecile! But I do enjoy reading all your different veiws on topics like this, it’s what makes a good debate! 👍

Coup detat
2 years ago
Reply to  Dinger64

Don’t think I’ve ever called you that, but even if I had, so what??.. Would you really care, hopefully not.
I don’t do woke, folks have swallowed the narrative and are so offended these days, it’s quite pathetic tbh…

Dinger64
2 years ago
Reply to  Coup detat

No you haven’t, I’m just saying how good the debate is on here!
There a lot of carefully researched info to read through

Coup detat
2 years ago
Reply to  Coup detat

.

Screenshot_20231202_192013_com.facebook.katana
varmint
2 years ago
Reply to  Coup detat

What a silly sad individual you really are. Is that all you really have in your life? Trawling through places like this, not to give a point of view but simply to verbally abuse anyone you think does not share that view. ———A Punch and Judy show is all you are here for isn’t it? Do you think abuse gives you power?—- It doesn’t. All it does is show you to be weak. Your a feeble person hiding behind a laptop. Do you think your silly name calling has the slightest effect on me?

Coup detat
2 years ago
Reply to  varmint

Yes!!… It obviously does, have a look back at your multiple diatribes.. 😂😂😂

What a complete muppet you are mate…. Honestly..

varmint
2 years ago
Reply to  Coup detat

Diatribes against politicians, phony planet savers, and lockdown nut jobs, plus defenders of the clitoris snippers yes. ———Oh and silly people that think they know what is true about everything rather than it just being their own silly world view. ——Like you. An easily manipulated brainwashed dreamer.

A Y M
2 years ago
Reply to  Coup detat

This report from James Corbett is a good primer on Henry New World Order Kissinger

https://www.corbettreport.com/episode-106-meet-henry-kissinger/?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email

You have probably seen it already but just in case…

186NO
186NO
2 years ago
Reply to  Coup detat

If you are so convinced of Mr Young’s position which is very evidently not yours why do you and all the other “ TY antis” continue to appear “here”? Branding anyone a “shill” is unlikely to cause a change of mind. Have you ever considered that you are being manipulated in the same manner that you accuse him?? Or is your insight “ settled” ?

Coup detat
2 years ago
Reply to  186NO

Because I paid, I got drawn in by TYs alleged anti establishment rhetoric, Ive been had, I’ll be the first to admit it, but since the complete and utter lack of balance re the reporting of 7th Oct and middle Eastern affairs plus Kissinger et al it’s blatently clear to me that something doesn’t quite add up here, do you think there’s a balanced approach???

So when my subs run out, I’m gone, TY will not be having a penny more from me, I don’t pay to read such msm nonsense nor hear such msm belief from 90 % of the contributors.
But there again, I might remain and continue to wind Varmint up, cause thats been worth every penny 😁

Scunnered
2 years ago
Reply to  A Y M

Jones doesn’t have a sceptical bone in his body; he thinks women have penises. And, lest we forget his Covid glory days.

A Y M
2 years ago
Reply to  Scunnered

I don’t want to be in the position of defending OJ, however, he has entertained doubts over Covid policies, and he has entered into civil debates and discussions with people he does not agree with.

Yes he’s hopelessly lost on climate and wokism but that doesn’t make him wrong on everything. Just as many on the right were good on anti wokism and free speech, and only variably right on Covid and the jabs but then fall for the same old war propaganda they had before. And they are often pretty awful in debates.

Candace Owens is one prominent pundit that seems to get it right all the time on every issue. IMO

Scunnered
2 years ago
Reply to  A Y M

OJ launched a vindictive, fact-free hatchet job on Prof. Gupta. Maybe you missed that.

Ron Smith
Ron Smith
2 years ago
Reply to  Scunnered

He looks approachable, friendly and an easy going character, but much like Mathew Wright (The Write Stuff before Jeremy Vibe) be was a real Lockdown and jab zealot who would happily see people right of centre marched off to a modern day Gulag.

Scunnered
2 years ago
Reply to  Ron Smith

Exactly; I remember in the wake of the Sarah Everard vigil policing debacle that tw@t was yelling “where are all the feminists??” on Twitter. Er…you’ve blocked them all, ya halfwit. The guy is an abject cretin; anyone finding themselves on the same side of the argument as this modern-day Stazi nitwit should do a sense check.

186NO
186NO
2 years ago
Reply to  Ron Smith

Whenever I happened to be watching when he appeared, his expression “ doleful”, I cannot get away from the impression he appears to be reading from the text of an essay written for a mock A level exam …. whether he passed seemed doubtful, every time.

Scunnered
2 years ago

He’s got a handful of pals on this site.

For a fist full of roubles

I take my hat off to all those who claim to know with certainty what occurred.
With the advent of AI graphics generation and the effort and money pumped into propaganda by all parties in any conflict, it is impossible to know the truth unless you were personally involved.
Climate, Covid, Ukraine, immigration, and now Gaza are all victims of mis- and dis-information.

GlassHalfFull
2 years ago

I don’t normally agree with Owen Jones and he blocked me years ago but on this point he is correct.
Israel are past masters at lies and propaganda.
Any video will be to show Hamas in the worst possible light some of which may be doctored.
When Hamas fighters broke out from their openair prison armed Palestinian civilians, with a decades long grudge, also escaped through the broken fence.
Some atrocities may have been committed by the Palestinian civilians as Hamas had strict instructions on who to target.
The kibbutz ring around Gaza is there to defend Israel.
Armed security guards and even IDF members are stationed at each kibbutz. These and the armed settlers and reservists were Hamas targets.
This is how Palestinians view female IDF reservists and settlers.
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It is likely that Hamas was unaware of the impromptu Nova festival as the nearby kibbutz was their target.
It is a fact that Israel used Apache helicopters against Hamas fighters at the festival which killed a number of Israeli civilians. Naysayers on The Daily Sceptic say this is a “conspiracy theory” but they are wrong.
It is also a fact that Israel used tanks against Hamas fighters at the kibbutz which also killed many Israeli civilians.
There is no evidence of 40 beheaded babies or of rapes or other made up atrocities but they should be investigated.
In conflicts bad things happen.
There are well documented atrocities by the French resistance and even by the French army against German civilians for their “occupation” of France for 4 years.
Palestine has been “occupied” by a foreign force for 75 years.
The taking of civilian hostages and killing of “innocent” civilians is a crime for which Palestinians should be prosecuted.
The killing of 20,000+ civilians including thousands of “innocent” women and children in retaliation is a much bigger crime.

Sforzesca
Sforzesca
2 years ago
Reply to  GlassHalfFull

The moral gymnastics of the pro Israel faction is indeed something to behold.
I have to applaud them for that at least.
I do wonder though how many dead Palestinian kids it would take before some maybe rethought matters.

It appears some on here wish all Muslims dead?
I really don’t know.
Please tell me how many dead kids it would take before you actually criticised the powers that be in and controlling Israel.

GlassHalfFull
2 years ago
Reply to  Sforzesca

Unfortunately many on here believe all Palestinians are terrorists and not resistance or freedom fighters.
Retribution when you don’t know all the facts is a strong emotion.
I would imagine that some on here also don’t like Palestinians because they have brown faces and/or are Muslims.
Their racism and Islamaphobia is not going to change and it is likely that there is no limit to how many dead Palestinian kids there are that would change their warped minds.

Sforzesca
Sforzesca
2 years ago
Reply to  GlassHalfFull

I’ve asked the numbers question often on here.
Nobody has given a coherent answer.
Plenty of downticks though and that I’m just a jew hater/Hamas sympathiser.

It’s almost as if they’re afraid to answer lest they be seen for what they truly are.
Which is a shame, because most on here have seen through the propaganda re –
Climate
Covid
Lockdown
“Vaccines” aka gene therapies
Woke bollocks
Russia

Yet they follow the Western propaganda on Palestine?

Jane G
Jane G
2 years ago
Reply to  GlassHalfFull

Yet more projections from unreflective persons. Keep talking – you reveal more of yourself each time.

FYI, for my part I have always been sympathetic to the Palestinians and argued their cause against my OH who favours the Israelis with their skill at ‘greening’ the desert and optimising the challenging conditions compared to the Arab population’s more traditional ways.

I would still hope the two peoples could live amicably side by side but there must be a reason why neighbouring states will not touch Palestinians with a bargepole or allow them in to their territory. What could that possibly be, I wonder. Memory of the plane hijacks of the 1970s and various acts of terror, perhaps.

I felt less inclined to champion their cause after 7/10. Nothing to do with brown skins. It’s interesting that it only seems to be Palestinian babies and children that are mentioned as casualties: maybe their elders ought to do a better job of sheltering them since they seem very adept at digging tunnels? Perhaps stop hiding behind them?

GlassHalfFull
2 years ago
Reply to  Jane G

Your government and their Zionist presstitutes in the mainstream media will be pleased you have believed all their lies and propaganda.

Scunnered
2 years ago
Reply to  Jane G

Whatever the whys and wherefores, neighbouring Arab nations know that Gaza is a radicalised and indoctrinated hot mess. A sane parent would have got their kids out of there decades ago.

186NO
186NO
2 years ago
Reply to  Scunnered

I am trying to understand why Egypt and Jordan do not appear to want any Palestinian from Gaza – King of Jordan unequivocal in refusing to take a single refugee – why would he/they be so opposed. Many reasons occur to me – the whole gamut from sensible to tribally motivated. Why is it that no one mentions the Iranians who seem to be very content to see their Arab brothers die for the “Iranian cause” – that seems to be “ok” to be levelled at “The West” by some posters here regarding Ukraine , eg , but strangely absent here .. do I detect an incoming “ aaah, but that’s different “ ….

Ron Smith
Ron Smith
2 years ago
Reply to  Scunnered

And sane people would not want them dispersed all over Europe. It was said to be in a classified document.

Coup detat
2 years ago
Reply to  Jane G

The Israelis built the tunnels…..

So many on here don’t know what they talk about

Jabby Mcstiff
Jabby Mcstiff
2 years ago

Not someone who I ever thought I would find commong ground with but having looked at his sources etc he is absolutely right. Mr Jones I salute you.

Mathison
Mathison
2 years ago

In what moral universe is it ok to carpet-bomb a 3rd world enclave, with no navy or air force and blockaded at both exits? ‘Public opinion across the globe has turned against Israel, as it always does when it responds to some terrorist activity’ – when it responds disproportionately Andrew – and 6,000 dead kids for 1 dead Israeli baby (official figures as per Red Cross, UN and Save the Children) is not proportionate. As it has now become clear that Israel knew about the intended attack, it is also obvious they wanted it in order to invade Gaza. Now they’re backtracking as the world turns against their own barbarism. Neil cites Hamas’ pledge to launch more Oct 7th attacks – never pointing out of course that Israel is the Occupier – or mentioning Bibi’s ‘Amalek’ threat, the multiple Israeli news channels calling for ethnic cleansing of Gaza & the nuke threat from his own cabinet. Israel whines Hamas wants to wipe it off the face of the map while at the same time doing exactly that to Gaza. (Hamas removed the destruction of Israel from its charter in 2006 – this is even cited on the UK Gov website… Read more »

WyrdWoman
2 years ago
Reply to  Mathison

Agreed. Yet Bibi is persisting with the ‘Amalek’ trope despite deliberately misqoting the Bible (tell a lie often enough, etc….), as Michael Hudson has eloquently pointed out: By a sleight-of-hand like that of a stage magician trying to distract the audience’s attention from what really is happening, Netanyahu has evoked what he claims to be a Biblical excuse for Israeli genocide. But what he pretends to be a covenant in the tradition of Moses is a vicious demand by the judge and grey eminence Samuel telling Saul, the general whom he hopes to make king: “Now go and smite Amalek [an enemy of Israel], and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys” (1 Samuel 15:3).  These were not the Lord’s own words, and Samuel was no Moses. And there was no blanket promise to back the Jews regardless of their behavior. And indeed, in following Samuel’s demand for conquest – as a means of making Saul popular enough to be made king – Saul broke the Lord’s commandments about proper religious ceremonial and dietary behavior. One would have no idea from… Read more »

Mathison
Mathison
2 years ago
Reply to  WyrdWoman

Well hopefully he never read the Bible and has now stepped in a world of poop.

Phil Warner
Phil Warner
2 years ago

I have not watched the video as I wouldn’t waste my time but, suffice it to say, Andrew Neil v Owen Jones and their understandings is enough to make your stomach turn.

Epi
Epi
2 years ago

Owen Jones is an odious runt and what Hamas did was more than despicable but no one has ever answered the question about why the IDF let these people through their defensive system so easily. Anyone?

Mathison
Mathison
2 years ago
Reply to  Epi

So they could invade Gaza, Israel expansionism plus oil and gas. Every invasion is built on lies and carried out because of for money, expansionism, arm sales and/or ‘energy security’.

Mathison
Mathison
2 years ago

Being as few Israelis trust their own government (4% approval rating for Bibi who Israeli citizens refer to as a murderer), why is it such a big deal that anyone else doesn’t?