Should the Freedom to Protest Really Trump the Freedom to Express Our Gratitude To Those Who Made the Ultimate Sacrifice?

When people are imbued with an ideology, they generally don’t reason their way to conclusions, but instead rely on prepackaged and relatively fixed ideas that function as heuristics for easy, kneejerk decision-making: “Four legs good, two legs bad.”

We are very good at identifying this flaw in others. But as a general rule we are terrible at identifying it in ourselves. And so it is with modern liberals and the shibboleths and slogans which dominate their thinking. When it comes to an issue such as whether or not a Pro-Palestinian protest should go ahead on Armistice Day, they imagine themselves to be “refusing to accept oversimplified interpretations of reality or outsourcing decision-making capacities to an already established creed”, all the while mouthing precisely the kind of oversimplified, creedal slogans that they so decry in others. And so the argument is trotted out, as it always is: “But enlightenment values! But autonomy as long as it doesn’t encroach upon the rights of others! But tolerance of intolerance!” And the result is liberal’s great error: complete inertia when it comes to the protection of dearly held values, including freedom itself.

Let’s go back to basics. As Stanley Fish once put it, there is no such thing as free speech – and it’s a good thing too. Freedom of expression for people buying and selling child pornography would be bad. So would freedom of expression for slanderers. So indeed would freedom of expression be bad for teachers in indoctrinating children with whatever stuff and nonsense pops into their minds. So would it be for sexual fetishists who wish to parade their peccadillos in public, including in front of children. So would it be for people who possess state secrets. And so on. Sane people all realise this. John Milton, often wheeled out as one of the first advocates of freedom of speech (or at least opponents of censorship) was all in favour of ‘extirpating’ people who had what in his view were dangerous opinions (i.e. Catholics). The difference between him and us is one of degree rather than of kind; we basically are happy for Catholics to have freedom of expression (although not if they silently pray outside abortion clinics or speak too loudly about the contents of the Bible), but not child pornographers, who we metaphorically burn at the stake.

So when it comes to freedom of speech, what we really mean is that we want free speech within acceptable limits. The limits are the rub; that is what we are arguing about. And the important thing about the limits is that they very often themselves derive from competing freedoms, and indeed competing freedoms of the same kind. Two people have the right to exercise freedom, and those freedoms clash. And it is of course necessary, in those circumstances, for somebody (the State) to decide which freedom wins; otherwise the victory will just go to the side who shouts the loudest or has the biggest (literal or figurative) stick.

The issue of the Pro-Palestinian protest is precisely this sort of problem. On the one hand, yes, we have the freedom of protestors to protest. But on the other hand we have the freedom of people who wish to publicly express the sentiments they bear towards members of the armed forces killed in war. Those freedoms are not reconcilable, because the manner of the protest (which will be loud, boisterous, etc.) will clash with the manner of the act of remembrance (which requires quiet and solemnity). In short, the State has therefore to pick which freedom it chooses to protect – that of the protestors or that of the rememberers. There is no middle ground. There is a winner and a loser, and the State has to decide which is going to be which. If it doesn’t, the victory will by default go to the ones who are willing to shout the loudest, and there are no prizes for guessing which side that will be.

The point, as trenchant critics of liberalism (Stanley Fish among them) have always observed, is ultimately that the idea of freedom for everyone is a fantasy. Freedoms clash. And when they clash, decisions have to be made as to which freedom wins. Those decisions will always ultimately be political ones, and will therefore rest on judgments about value. And those judgments will not derive from objective reason, but feeling. The issue of the Armistice Day protest, seen in this light, is therefore actually a very simple one. We have to decide which freedom we want to win. Is it the freedom to protest? Or the freedom to express gratitude to the dead? I know which one, on this particular day, I think matters more.

The wider issue, of course, is that – to go back to an earlier point – if one does not choose which freedoms one wants to protect, and by extension which values one wishes to enshrine, then the alternative will be that freedoms will default to those with the muscle and vocal cords to exercise them. The problem for liberals, then, is that their own “four legs good, two legs bad” thinking (we might summarise it as “tolerance good, intolerance bad’) blinds them to what is actually at stake, and shuts down precisely the kind of rational thinking which they claim to embody. Freedom is never absolute, only contingent, and if you don’t choose which freedoms are important to protect, based on the values you think are important, then somebody else with a bigger stick and a keener sense of the values they support will get to decide instead. And whoever that is, they are probably going to be a lot less tolerant and nice than you are.

Dr. David McGrogan is an Associate Professor of Law at Northumbria Law School. He is the author of the News From Uncibal Substack.

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huxleypiggles
2 years ago

https://thenewconservative.co.uk/a-storm-is-brewing/

Frank Haviland’s take on the likely result this weekend.

It’s brutal but then I suspect so will this weekend be.

Mathison
Mathison
2 years ago
Reply to  huxleypiggles

Whip up that hysteria Huxley. Only the article writer can’t be bothered to do any research. How exactly is a march scheduled to start at 12:45 going to get in the way of a 2 min silence at 11am?

huxleypiggles
2 years ago

https://photos.app.goo.gl/XxtdHdBPMto77mUG6

I hope this link works.

A recent film from London. A taster for the weekend?

10navigator
10navigator
2 years ago
Reply to  huxleypiggles

Bring back the birch!

TheGreenAcres
2 years ago

The freedom to protest doesn’t mean you have the freedom to protest any time, any place, on any subject under the sun. When the rights of competing groups clash, there is always a necessary judgment call on who loses out.

The problem I suspect is that in private both Rowley and Sunak want the armistice day march banned. But neither has the balls to order it himself. So weak leadership is what has led to this, there are plenty of laws that can be used but neither party will take responsibility.

Boomer Bloke
2 years ago
Reply to  TheGreenAcres

It’s not about winners and losers or who got there first. It’s about behaving appropriately and doing the right thing. And in our culture it is not right to schedule a protest on Remembrance Day or the the Sunday following. There’s the problem.

stewart
2 years ago
Reply to  Boomer Bloke

So… nothing from “our culture” can be protested?

To be clear. I like Rememberance Day. I Don’t agree with Pro-Palestine protestors. I would rather they didn’t protest on Rememberance day, or any day for that matter.

But therein lies the challenge of free speech. Accepting that which one doesn’t like.

Boomer Bloke
2 years ago
Reply to  stewart

Not what I said. Nice try with the straw man though. No cigar. Read it again

stewart
2 years ago
Reply to  Boomer Bloke

I’m not building a strawman, I’m arguing in good faith.

So, for example, what happens if I were to be against remembrance day celebrations because I think it pretends to be about peace but in fact glorifies war and our military past and makes us more likely to be dragged into wars. (Just playing devil’s advocate)

So, can I not have that protest?

Boomer Bloke
2 years ago
Reply to  stewart

Read what I said

stewart
2 years ago
Reply to  Boomer Bloke

So I assume your answer in your curt and arrogant way is that, no, in your view no protest is appropriate on Rememberance day, not even a protest against remembrance day.

Well, I disagree.

I think free speech stands above pretty much anything.

Boomer Bloke
2 years ago
Reply to  stewart

You still didn’t read what I said, as your goalpost moving backpedaling muddying of the waters demonstrates. You can make all the assumptions you like, wise ass. Curt and arrogant, thanks that’s what I was intending.

stewart
2 years ago
Reply to  Boomer Bloke

Backpedalling?

Tell me what back pedalling?

Why are you so angry, btw? Why can’t you just have a civil discussion?

JohnK
2 years ago
Reply to  stewart

We don’t have to participate in either of them, of course. But a cynic might note that while the normal Remembrance celebration on the Sunday takes place, there are actually a few wars going on (at least Ukraine, Israel, Syria, Yemen, Sudan), some of which are good for the shares of certain companies based here. But it is a useful reminder for the younger generations as to how bad it can be. Note that with next year being a leap year, it will be several years ahead when Armistice and Remembrance occur on the same day, with R always being a Sunday.

Jonathan M
Jonathan M
2 years ago
Reply to  stewart

Yes, of course you can, and I’d defend your right to do so. But I would also support the Metropolitan Police if they insisted that such a protest should not take place near Whitehall. Not that the cowards would, of course.

Mathison
Mathison
2 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan M

It isn’t near Whitehall. So they don’t need to insist.

Corky Ringspot
2 years ago
Reply to  stewart

I’m not quite sure yet where I stand on the substantive issue addressed by this article, but yes, you are building a straw man, though your concern is clearly to debate politely. Boomer Bloke referred specifically to Remembrance Day, which you then implied represents his view on all things included in “our culture”. But he didn’t say that.

186NO
186NO
2 years ago
Reply to  stewart

The right to protest was revalidated in the 20th century many many times and none more so than the two WWs. What you have to deal with, If I may be allowed to state, is that those protesting in a manner which undermines this country’s Laws, customs traditions and culture, maintained over many hundreds of years despite repeated threats, who support in any way a proscribed illegal terrorist organisation and breaks the Law of this country in ANY way, can only do so because of the sacrifice of all combatants on either side of the particular conflict. People who have sought some kind of refuge in this country (who then turn against this country) can express that dissent and are free to do so, in a manner that they may not be able to do so “elsewhere”. To me that is the most egregious exploitation of a country that offered “sanctuary” and I think more and more people are becoming unreconcilably fed up with that continuing exploitation – and that has been happening for decades. If that is anywhere close to being a “good faith” argument as you put it, the UK PTB MUST uphold the Law without favour; there… Read more »

Mathison
Mathison
2 years ago
Reply to  stewart

Spot on. ‘I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it’. The request to shut down free speech, be it a protest or a speaker at Hyde Park Corner is the thin end of the wedge and what the government is aiming for. Those asking demanding it now might regret it later.

huxleypiggles
2 years ago
Reply to  Boomer Bloke

Hear hear.

huxleypiggles
2 years ago
Reply to  Boomer Bloke

Nobody who genuinely believes in Britain and their right to hold a British passport would dream of holding a protest let alone a protest march on Armistice weekend.

Corky Ringspot
2 years ago
Reply to  huxleypiggles

Depressing to see significant numbers of people downticking that comment. When concerned with attracting public attention and mass-promoting our national stories, we do one thing and one thing only on Armistice weekend: we remember the war dead and their colossal sacrifice. Any distraction from that activity is a straightforward signal of disrespect to what they did and how they saved our skins.

huxleypiggles
2 years ago
Reply to  Corky Ringspot

Exactly. Thank you for your support.

DevonBlueBoy
DevonBlueBoy
2 years ago
Reply to  huxleypiggles

And therein lies the rub

huxleypiggles
2 years ago
Reply to  DevonBlueBoy

Cheers DBB.

Mogwai
2 years ago
Reply to  Boomer Bloke

I agree. There’s enough pent-up hostilities, tension and unrest within our societies. To allow this to go ahead is being deliberately antagonistic, not to mention disrespectful. And like we’ve said on here loads now, WTF has any of it actually got to do with yet another kick-off in the Middle East? It’s like a volcano that can lay dormant for a time but it will inevitably erupt again and again. What exactly does a load of extremists and useful idiots marching and exuding hostility and hate towards a specific group of people actually do, meaningfully, with regards to this long-running conflict? It’s all by design of course, but apparently hundreds of thousands of muppets are too ignorant and hate-filled to see they’re being played, like mere pawns. They’re all doing exactly what was intended.

Mathison
Mathison
2 years ago
Reply to  Mogwai

The useful idiots are the ones pushing divide and rule, demanding the clampdown on freedom of speech – doing the governments job for them is the definition of ‘useful idiot’.

Mathison
Mathison
2 years ago
Reply to  Boomer Bloke

‘In our culture’ – What is our culture? Apart from bombing the bejeezus out of foreigners in lands far away – it’s tolerance. Tolerance Boomer. Try it.

soundofreason
soundofreason
2 years ago
Reply to  TheGreenAcres

Rather than calling it a protest why not call it a demonstration? The demonstration of remembrance was booked first – jog on you other lot. Demonstrate later – and behave yourselves.

Mathison
Mathison
2 years ago
Reply to  soundofreason

London is a BIG CITY sound of er… ‘reason’. The US Embassy is 5 miles from Whitehall. Get a grip.

huxleypiggles
2 years ago
Reply to  TheGreenAcres

“The problem I suspect is that in private both Rowley and Sunak want the armistice day march banned.” I strongly suspect this to be the case but for various reasons: Sunak wants the civil strife that will erupt this weekend because it is as his masters order – Rowley is Common Purpose so he’s on the same side and will simply fall in line. He is also spineless, an abject coward. Sunak is not British so Armistice Day / weekend in this case means nothing to him. If it did he would ban the islamists march because even he must know that it is deliberate provocation. We have honoured our war dead with Armistice Day since 1919 and it is an integral part of the nation’s psyche. The holding of this commemorative event has therefore far more importance and symbolism than the wailings of a bunch of rag heads who wish to defile London in support of a proscribed terrorist organisation. So… “the freedom to protest doesn’t mean you have the freedom to protest any time, any place, on any subject under the sun. When the rights of competing groups clash, there is always a necessary judgment call on who… Read more »

Mogwai
2 years ago
Reply to  huxleypiggles

Well I’m not a free speech absolutist and I do believe there should be limits, otherwise it’s too easy for ‘free speech’ to morph into ‘hate speech’ with people suffering the consequences. We’re seeing the repercussions of this now, as a result of these constant demos and marches, with an increase in hate crime towards Jews and it’s happening everywhere. An elderly Israeli supporter was recently killed by a pro-terrorist supporter in the US after he struck the man over the head with a megaphone. A Jewish woman was stabbed when she answered the door in France, the attacker painting a swastika on her door before he fled. Just two more extreme examples. For instance, here is the rise in the Netherlands. 818%! Tragically and alarmingly, many of these incidents are happening in schools amongst school kids. ”The Center for Information and Documentation on Israel (CIDI) reported an alarming increase in anti-Semitism in the Netherlands since the outbreak of the Israel-Hamas war. According to CIDI, the number of incidents since the violence started in Israel on October 7 is now 818 percent higher than the monthly average of the past three years. The University of Amsterdam has apologized for its handling of… Read more »

RW
RW
2 years ago
Reply to  huxleypiggles

Hmm … what precise business do English internet publications have with the naming of nurseries in rural backwater towns in Germany? That of the habitual busybully perhaps?

JohnK
2 years ago
Reply to  huxleypiggles

And the boss is the Mayor, Sadiq Khan, who is out of the loop between Sunak and Rowley, according to the press. At least, he’s a bit quiet on this matter.

Matt Dalby
Matt Dalby
2 years ago
Reply to  huxleypiggles

Sunak isn’t of British heritage but he has far more British values than a lot of Muslims or their useful idiots who march with them.
The Cenotaph honours Commonwealth, not just British war dead. Given that millions of Indians fought in both world wars and tens of thousands died for the Empire, as it was then it’s likely that members of Sunak’s family are commemorated at the Cenotaph, so Armistice Day/Remembrance Sunday is likely to mean a lot to him.

Mathison
Mathison
2 years ago
Reply to  Matt Dalby

You’re the useful idiot Matt – Divide and rule – worked for centuries.

huxleypiggles
2 years ago
Reply to  Matt Dalby

If Armistice Day means a lot to Fishy he has a ruddy warped way of showing it. Anybody participating in this demonstration this weekend is effectively sticking two fingers up to this country. They are showing their allegiances and those do not include Britain. They have no place in this country.

Mathison
Mathison
2 years ago
Reply to  huxleypiggles

Oh dear. Rag heads, Islamists, terrorist organisation…. The irony is, all those soldiers in WWII died for nothing. What was the point in keeping out the fascists, when they were already here.

huxleypiggles
2 years ago
Reply to  Mathison

It is beginning to look as if you belong amongst the useful idiots.

The people rejecting our sacred traditions have no place in my country and I do not want them living amongst us.

Simple as.

(I do not capitalise ‘islamists,’ that has been forfeited.)

RW
RW
2 years ago
Reply to  huxleypiggles

The people rejecting our sacred traditions have no place in my country and I do not want them living amongst us. I’m trying an ad hoc translation of a text written by a German soldier of WWI from a popular history book from the 1920s here. It’s about the 3rd battle of Ypres, called Flandernschlacht 1917 in German. More so-called great attack days. On the 20th and 26th of September, on October 4th, 9th, 12th, 22nd, 26th and 30th. Always the same picture. Artillery barrages on either side and in between, puny infantry action. Incomparable martydom. Desolation defying any attempts at rendering it into words. On 12th of November, English troops take the site of the former village of Passchendale. No further territorial changes will occur. The barrages don’t care. They keep raging on senselessly for a while until they finally realizes that the battle is over. Local outcome — in four months, territorial gains of at most 5 miles depth on 12 ½ miles of the frontline. A desert of mud the moon would be proud of. Millions of tons of shattered iron. And in between, the remains of 200,000 people. Strategical effect: inconsequential. I’ll let that stand as… Read more »

stewart
2 years ago

So when it comes to freedom of speech, what we really mean is that we want free speech within acceptable limits. No WE don’t. The author does and he does the very typical sleight of hand to shut down debate, namely – this thing I am claiming is so self evident that it is beyond discussion. Well, no, I’m afraid freedom of speech for some of us means no limits. The “reasonable limits” argument and the child pornography, trademark violation, etc examples used to show how there are reasonable limits conflate speech with other crimes. They can all be legally pursued under other laws. You don’t need to adjust free speech laws. Using the “limits to free speech” argument is just an add on. A way to make it even more illegal, easier to shut down and pursue. In the case, of the child pornographer, you can do him for taking sordid pictures of children, but you can also do him for distributing them. It’s about clamping down harder. And the price of that tacking on free speech limitations to make it easier to stop things we don’t like comes at a heavy price – the gradual erosion of free… Read more »

huxleypiggles
2 years ago

A first rate and cogently argued stance which would be difficult to overturn.

Thank you Dr McGrogan.

Mathison
Mathison
2 years ago
Reply to  huxleypiggles

It’s drivel. If this is the current level of ‘teaching’ we’re doomed.

Mogwai
2 years ago

If freedom of speech/expression is for all and intended as a blanket term to apply across the board then why were the police taking down posters of the hostages, telling men holding British flags to put them away and also the van that was driving around with billboard posters lit up of the hostages got stopped and the driver warned? All of this the police’s doing. Even Billboard Chris got a telling off and that wasn’t even to do with the conflict, rather some intolerant pro-Hamassholes started getting hostile and in his face because they didn’t like his sandwich board! Perhaps Chris should’ve drove around with a billboard van promoting Jew-killing and Jihad, he’d have fared better! In Germany they don’t seem to like free speech that isn’t pro-terrorist, as these couples found out. They now have a police investigation to deal with just because they held up signs saying ”Hamas = murder” ( in German ) ”Two married couples stand up for Israel on the sidelines of the pro-Palestinian demonstration on Sunday evening in Siegen. The police consider the chance encounter to be an “unregistered gathering” – and initiate an investigation. Two couples who didn’t know each other until then,… Read more »

RW
RW
2 years ago
Reply to  Mogwai

In Germany they don’t seem to like free speech that isn’t pro-terrorist, as these couples found out. They now have a police investigation to deal with just because they held up signs saying ”Hamas = murder” ( in German )

This is not true. According to the law about public demonstrations in NRW (the German state in question, quoted in the article):

Versammlung im Sinne dieses Gesetzes ist eine örtliche Zusammenkunft von mindestens drei Personen zur gemeinschaftlichen, überwiegend auf die Teilhabe an der öffentlichen Meinungsbildung gerichteten Erörterung oder Kundgebung.

Public demonstrations have to be communicated to the authorities in advance in Germany and according to the law (excerpt) quoted above, a public gathering of at least three people who act to express a political opinion in public counts as public demonstration. The police asked these people who their organisational leader for the event was and one of the women answered “Me”. Hence, this counted as unannounced and thus, illegal public demonstration and a police investigation had to be initiated.

Like it or not, but My heart bleeds for the RIGHT people! doesn’t mean you get to break the law with impunity, not even if the law might be somewhat silly.

Mathison
Mathison
2 years ago
Reply to  RW

Public demos have to be communicated to the police in advance in the UK. And trying to stop the carpet-bombing of Gaza isn’t political, it’s humane.

RW
RW
2 years ago
Reply to  Mathison

Public demos have to be communicated to the police in advance in the UK.

I’m pretty sure the citizens of Fiji also have to follow some rules in this regard. But that’s irrelevant for the wrong claim that German police had started an investigation just because someone showed a Hamas – Murderers sign in public.

And [whatever polticial cause we happen to champion] isn’t political.

Yawn. There’s a German proverb, Hochmut kommt vor dem Fall. In English, this would be (sanctimonious) self-rightousness oftentimes precedes a downfall.

Mathison
Mathison
2 years ago
Reply to  Mogwai

Cherry picking again. The union flag guy was arrested for shouting racist slogans. The posters were taken down as they included unsubstatiated reports of some elements of the Oct 7 attacks and were therefore shameful for using the hostages to promote the fake news elements of what was already a heinous attack. I’m guessing you never read The Times of Israel or Haaretz.

jburns75
jburns75
2 years ago

This article assumes -erroneously in my view – that freedom of speech and freedom to disrupt are the same thing. It also equates a freedom to share illegal content with ‘freedom of expression’, which is patently false: there are clear legal boundaries between expressing opinions and engaging in illegal activity. In these errors, the author veers into the same arguments the illiberal left have been using as justification for their increasing authoritarianism. Freedom of speech must be absolute within legal boundaries. What is good for the goose must be good for the gander. A non-violent protest whose participants cannot be claimed to be inciting violence, discrimination or other illegal acts; which does not cause undue disruption, inconvenience or threat to non-participants should be supported by anyone who supports free speech, even if they find the subject of the protest morally repugnant. In the current situation, it seems likely that protests could descend into violence. The scale, timing and nature of the protest is confrontational, and participants in similar protests have a track record of threatening words and behaviour, already covered by existing legislation. Responding to this either with preventative measures and / or through rigorous zero-tolerance policing of the boundary… Read more »

Monro
2 years ago

Corbyn got just shy of 13m votes.

These marchers are Corbynites, a definite power in the land.

Of course they should be allowed to march.

‘The British soldier likes to see his man’

Field Marshal Slim

Mathison
Mathison
2 years ago
Reply to  Monro

No they’re not Ian.

Monro
2 years ago
Reply to  Mathison

Yes they are, Trevor

Ten of thousands of pro-Palestine supporters have attended a demonstration in central London at which Jeremy Corbyn was loudly cheered as he accused Israel of committing “war crimes” in Gaza.’

‘Pro-Palestine protesters cheer as Corbyn accuses Israel of ‘war crimes’

Jewish news 14 Oct 2023

Mathison
Mathison
2 years ago
Reply to  Monro

Doesn’t make them all Corbynites Ian, does it.

Alan M
Alan M
2 years ago

Sadly, the freedom to protest does override the expression of gratitude, but the protesters should have the grace to realise how much offence they are giving with their actions and delay the protest. Sadly, I think that thought is pie in the sky. There is only one word to describe anyone who would do this and it rhymes with blunt.

huxleypiggles
2 years ago
Reply to  Alan M

The most obvious way to hi-light your anti Britishness is to join any protest march this weekend.

The protesters are making quite clear their anti British views and are indirectly asking for a ticket back from whence they came and if they bleat about being born here to the country from which their original invaders immigrant forebears originated.

Mogwai
2 years ago
Reply to  huxleypiggles

Now we’re a few weeks in, and much footage constantly being uploaded, I’m firmly of the opinion that anyone taking part in these demos is an extremist and/or terrorist-supporter, until proven otherwise. As I’ve said before, you’ve got no excuse for not knowing what you’re chanting about and the meaning of terms such as “intifada” and the “from the river to the sea..” etc. Couple that with the steep rise in antisemitic complaints/crimes since Oct 7th, then there’s your profile of your average protestor right there.
And I don’t see any mass protests being organized for any of the other conflicts going on, with many thousands of civilian casualties and atrocities being committed, but none of the others involve Jews, so that rather says it all that this is all about the Jew hate.

stewart
2 years ago
Reply to  Mogwai

I agree. And yet, I wouldn’t want to rob them of their right to express their abhorrent views. Just in case one day I want to express views that to almost everyone else seem abhorrent.

Like for example, and not having to go back very far, the right to express the view that lockdowns are a form of torture, as are masks, as is the compulsion to take an experimental jab.

Those opinions were at one point of absolute societal hysteria considered equivalent to advocating the death of millions and vigorously suppressed.

Mathison
Mathison
2 years ago
Reply to  stewart

Good to know calling for a ceasefire in Gaza is now an ‘abhorrent view’. And no, this view is not abhorrent to ‘everyone else’. Just those with no humanity, the useful idiots keeping divide and rule alive for the gov and calling a halt to free speech. Well done ‘Free Speech’ Union.

huxleypiggles
2 years ago
Reply to  Mogwai

I completely agree Mogs 👍

Mathison
Mathison
2 years ago
Reply to  Mogwai

Of course you are. It’s because you’re a racist. Had you actually attended one of the marches or even watched from a distance without judging from the limited prism of DS and legacy media, you’d have seen many Jews (and Jewish orgs) at the rallies. The River to The Sea does not mean the destruction of Israel, merely the equality and freedom of Palestinians within that enclave. Nobody shouted ‘Intifada’ BTW. And you are clearly unable to profile yourself (research ‘shadow side’) & have had not once attended a rally to get first hand testimony, you’re in no position to profile anyone else.

Mathison
Mathison
2 years ago
Reply to  huxleypiggles

It’s mostly English BTW and families at that – just that MSM and DS pick the ‘Islamic types’ with dodgy posters as they know the useful idiots will help promote divide and rule. Arabs and Jews walked side by side and there are several Jewish orgs represented though many of course can’t protest on the Sabbath so they’ve asked if the marches can be moved to Sundays – not this Sunday obvs. You are coming from a position of bling ignorance as you’ve never attended one of the rallies.

Nicholas Britton
2 years ago
Reply to  Alan M

I can’t imagine why you think that lot are capable of showing any “grace”.

huxleypiggles
2 years ago

Quite.

Mathison
Mathison
2 years ago

‘That lot’? You don’t know who they are. You’ve never been.

Mathison
Mathison
2 years ago
Reply to  Alan M

Have you been to London Alan? The US embassy is 5 miles from the Cenotaph and the march 2 hours after the minute of silence. Get a grip.

Just Stop it Now
2 years ago
Reply to  Mathison

Point of order – US Embassy is 2 miles or 40 minutes walk.

Mathison
Mathison
2 years ago

Nowhere near then.

Scunnered
2 years ago
Reply to  Mathison

Proximity and timing is irrelevant; if they had any decency and respect they’d avoid the day altogether. But they don’t, so they won’t.

huxleypiggles
2 years ago
Reply to  Mathison

The US embassy is 5 miles from the Cenotaph”

“Nowhere near then.”

We are still waiting for your apology.

JXB
JXB
2 years ago

There is no ‘freedom to protest’ but freedom of expression and association.

BUT… under Common Law you may not enjoy your freedom at the expense of the freedom of others.

Nothing in freedom of expression or association gives freedom to block the King’s highways, pavements, to be aggressive, violent, intimidate, frighten, cause nuisance, damage public or private property, stop another going about their lawful activities or enjoying their property.

We supposedly have – used to have – a police force to ensure the Rights of all are observed, not to assist their subjugation.

So in answer to the headline:-

NO!

Mathison
Mathison
2 years ago
Reply to  JXB

A protest doesn’t reduce anyone else’s freedom JXB – calm down dear.

Nicholas Britton
2 years ago

Freedom of speech and freedom of disruption are different things. It’s been easier in the past when we tolerated people saying things we disagree with or even found offensive but they were just words with few consequences. Groups like XR and JSO have taken things to a new level where lives are severely disrupted or even endangered as shown in an article in todays DT. We will have to see what happens at the weekend with the pro-hamas protests but I am not confident they will pass peacefully. The authorities, especially the Met, have failed to grasp this nettle, meaning the situation will be beyond their control. That was a huge logistical mistake on their part. This could be a flashpoint where the bottled-up resentment of two radically opposed cultures finally boils over.

huxleypiggles
2 years ago

This could be a flashpoint where the bottled-up resentment of two radically opposed cultures finally boils over.”

….could be? I have been saying for the last few days that there will be casualties and probably fatalities.

This is just what Fishy and his masters are hoping for.

What would Maggie have done?

MikeAustin
2 years ago

Oh my goodness me! Here we go again, deliberately and mischievously provoking argument, division and conflict!

This is all predicated on two groups occupying the same space. But that need not happen – and responsible people from both groups will ensure that it doesn’t happen.

There will always be irresponsible people who try to cause problems, but that has nothing to do with either of the groups here. It has more to do with those who whip up discord with articles such as this!

Nearhorburian
Nearhorburian
2 years ago
Reply to  MikeAustin

If responsible people were in charge of the pro-Hamas march they wouldn’t have chosen this weekend.

Mathison
Mathison
2 years ago
Reply to  Nearhorburian

It’s not pro-Hamas. It’s a WORLWIDE call to stop the bombing in Gaza.

Jabby Mcstiff
Jabby Mcstiff
2 years ago

If you have a brain cell left then you celebrate consciousness and the highest exemplars of it. That’s all we have. Maybe there is more but we can’t see it. As long as you understand that you’re no better than anyone else and don’t go around slicing people up then you’re good to go.If you cannot see that another human being is a spark of the divine then you need to work on yourself more.

Philip Neal
Philip Neal
2 years ago

Where has this non-issue come from? 

Armistice Day is always 11th November, whatever the day of the week (this year, Saturday 11th), and Remembrance Sunday is the nearest Sunday (this year Sunday 12th). The main commemorations are on the Sunday, with a brief ceremony at 11.00 a.m. on the 11th. A pro-Palestinian demonstration is to be held on the afternoon of Saturday 11th, and there was never any question of it being routed past the Cenotaph.

Here is conflation in action. No doubt it will serve its purpose in averting carnage on a scale not seen in peacetime since the Tonypandy Massacre.

Jabby Mcstiff
Jabby Mcstiff
2 years ago

There is more to the final sacrifice than emotion allows. It is one thing to be fired up by propaganda in your culture so that you will join up and fight. It is another thing entirely to absorb the entirety of our moment and assert yourself within it.True fighting is in full consciousness and normal boundaries of energy disappear. You can be dispirited by our times but really these dismal times are a call to energy.

Jabby Mcstiff
Jabby Mcstiff
2 years ago

Don’t stop it. Like Pete Seeger said, Die Gedanken Sind Frei. We need to open up the European mind again. There is a lot of energy and potential stored up in the young I think it can be done.

Jabby Mcstiff
Jabby Mcstiff
2 years ago

I remember watching Laurel and Hardy on BBC2 as a child and thinking that this is a world of impossible beauty which can’t last long.I think we can go back to that I think we are ready for it despite fifth dimensional warfare. Like Bob Marley him say, chant down Babylon.

Free Lemming
2 years ago

Another one I’ve wrestled with. If it wasn’t for the complete capture of everything by the Left, then I’d say let them protest. I’d say let them walk on the Cenotaph and let the indigenous masses of this country respond. Social boundaries are always best policed from within. However, the Left have captured everything. Any conflict will be blamed on the ‘far-right’, not the Arabs that are dishonouring our dead. The state knows this full well. Whatever the outcome Big State will move closer to its goal. – Ban the protest? Well, Big State now has precedent for making harmful protests illegal – the definition of harmful protests will encompass any protests not in the interests of the people e.g. lockdown, ‘vaccines’ etc. – Ok, so let it rip then? Well, now Big State has to protect us from all from those horrible ‘far-right’ thugs that inflamed unrest. Definitely more surveillance, further justifications for digital IDs etc – Maybe nothing happens, that’s good surely? No. They have run another experiment and studied the behaviour of the masses. They’ll get to further understand group behavior and which group will do what given a certain set of circumstances. Whatever the outcome they… Read more »

RW
RW
2 years ago

Can’t help posting this: 11/11 is also a very special day in Germany. It’s the official start of the carnival season.

Mathison
Mathison
2 years ago

Selling child pornography has nothing to do with free speech. Slander has nothing to do with free speech. You can say pretty much whatever you like about another individual so long as it isn’t a lie. Teachers have for centuries unwittingly filled children’s heads with nonsense, it’s in the curriculum – nothing to do with free speech. In regard to the Palestinian protest, this does not clash with Armistice Day in practical terms as London is a big city and the US Embassy is 5 miles from the Cenotaph. No middle ground? The State gets to choose? A winner and a loser? The freedom to protest and the freedom to express gratitude to the dead are not mutually exclusive. You cite boisterous vs. peaceful. Perhaps, as you’re in Northumbria, you might like to look online at a map of London. Aside from the fact the Palestinian march doesn’t begin until nearly 2 hours after the 2 min silence at 11am, it goes from Hyde Park Corner (if anyone can hear the march over the ducks, joggers & general noise of the large Green Park I’ll buy you a pizza) – and again – ends at the US Embassy five miles… Read more »

Just Stop it Now
2 years ago
Reply to  Mathison

See above comment – its 2 miles away.

RTSC
RTSC
2 years ago

Freedom of speech has always been qualified by “under the law.”

The law these days restricts freedom of speech if you are white, heterosexual, Christian, conservative, working class, believe in bodily autonomy and don’t subscribe to the Climate Change Religion.

If you are Muslim, or a supporter of Hamas, you are free to call for Israel to be obliterated, Jews to be murdered and a Religious “war” to achieve both.

I believe the hordes of Palestine Terrorist Supporters should be allowed to march – and they should be allowed freedom of speech under the law. In which case, a very large percentage of them would be arrested and charged.

However, they should not be allowed to march where they want and when they want. November 11 is a day of national mourning/commemoration and they should not be allowed to defile it.

Let them have their march ….. on another day, and on Dartmoor.

186NO
186NO
2 years ago
Reply to  RTSC

I find it very curious that the Met have not insisted that all those “marching” cannot have any face covering so they can be video’ed – given that CCTV cameras proliferate all over London and elsewhere to provide “intelligence” to Plod for “future reference”.

huxleypiggles
2 years ago
Reply to  RTSC

Hear, hear.

Myra
2 years ago

Freedom to protest.
But there are rules, so why not set these out clearly?
No flying of flags of terrorist organisations, no calls for Jihad or violence if any sort.
Make this clear beforehand. Arrest people on the spot if they disobey these rules.
And honestly, why not move the protest to Friday or Monday?
I am worried this weekend won’t be pretty.