Who Knew the Police Were Such Staunch Defenders of Free Speech?
If, like me, you’ve spent the last three years battling to defend the right to free speech, often from over-zealous police officers, the policing of yesterday’s pro-Palestinian protest was a bit of a shock. Apparently, you can be arrested for comparing a WPC to your “lesbian nan”, but chanting “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” – code for wiping Israel off the map – is totally fine. In one bit of footage circulating on Twitter yesterday, a protestor clambered down some scaffolding, having been shouting slogans from a rooftop, and was handed back his Palestinian flag by a police officer who’d been holding it for him.
So, where should the police draw the line?
Robert Jenrick, the immigration minister, thinks the Met granted yesterday’s protestors far too much latitude. He told Sky’s Sunday Morning With Trevor Philips: “Chanting ‘Jihad’ on the streets of London is completely reprehensible and I never want to see scenes like that. It is inciting terrorist violence and it needs to be tackled with the full force of the law.”
The Times has some of the gruesome details of the protest:
As the pro-Palestinian march began, riot police were stationed beside monuments along the route, including the statue of Winston Churchill in Parliament Square and Eros in Piccadilly Circus, following intelligence that some demonstrators planned vandalism.
Among posters seen at the march were ones stating “Stop the new Holocaust” and “Zionism is the new Nazism”. One demonstrator held a poster that said “From London to Gaza, globalise the Intifada”. One protester who had a placard stating “Gaza is a holocaust” had it confiscated by officers and was asked to attend a police station.
Ten arrests were made in London relating to the use of fireworks, affray, a public order offence and the assault of an emergency service worker. Five Metropolitan Police officers suffered minor injuries.
The force earlier said it had identified a hate crime offence after footage was published on social media of a small group of protesters chanting the words “Yahud”, the Arabic word for Jew, and “Hamas”.
The words “Nazi Israel” were scrawled on a building in Piccadilly, while protesters graffitied “Free Palestine” on a wall of the Dorchester hotel on Park Lane.
Speakers at the rally included Mick Whelan, the general secretary of the Aslef train driver’s union, and Daniel Kebede, the leader of the National Education Union. Jeremy Corbyn, the former Labour leader, and John McDonnell, the former shadow chancellor, also attended.
Last week, the Met said there had been a 1,350 per cent increase in hate crimes against Jewish people since Hamas attack, compared with the same period last year.
At a separate rally in the capital, about 300 supporters of the Islamist group Hizb ut Tahrir protested outside the Egyptian and Turkish embassies, claiming those countries were not doing enough to help Palestinians. At one point, a speaker asked the crowd, “What is the solution to liberate people from the concentration camp called Palestine,” to which one attendee shouted: “Jihad, jihad, jihad!”
The Met said that counter- terrorism officers had reviewed the footage of the man shouting Jihad but they had “not identified any offences arising from the specific clip”.
The force said: “The word jihad has a number of meanings but we know the public will most commonly associate it with terrorism … However, recognising the way language like this will be interpreted by the public and the divisive impact it will have, officers have identified the man involved and will be speaking to him shorty to discourage any repeat of similar chanting.”
In the Spectator, Andrew Tettenborn points out that the Met has been less tolerant of pro-Israeli protestors than pro-Palestinian ones:
On Wednesday, pro-Palestinian protesters encountered one of these vehicles in Parliament Square. They stood menacingly in front of it, shouting anti-Israel invective. What did the police do? Instead of preventing an attack on the van and clearing a passage for it, they stopped it and spoke to the driver. They told him they could not allow him to proceed and shortly later ordered him to switch off his display immediately and leave the area. The chief executive of CAA, when he arrived, was prevented from crossing to speak to the driver. Nothing, it seems, was done about the protesters.
What were the reasons for this apparent exercise in suppressing the speech of one side but allowing that of the other? At the time, the police present used phrases like “breach of the peace” and “your own safety”. In a subsequent statement, they said they had acted for “public safety” and to prevent the van “becoming a point of tension or conflict”, and added, slightly disingenuously, that they had earlier prevented an ugly mass march on the Israeli embassy.
In a way, you can understand the actions of the harassed coppers on the ground, who were clearly out of their depth and one suspects lacking determined leadership. They deserve sympathy rather than brickbats. Indeed, they may even have been acting lawfully. (The CAA are currently investigating the legalities, and it is certainly true that the existing law is not entirely certain when it comes to how far a person is entitled to speak his mind amid a hostile crowd threatening violence.)
Nevertheless, this whole development is distinctly worrying.
Worth reading in full.
Stop Press: Met police chiefs will be summoned to the Home Office to explain their failure to arrest protestors chanting ‘Jihad’ yesterday. The Telegraph has more.
Stop Press 2: It looks as though the only people on Saturday’s march that got into trouble for waving an inappropriate flag were a couple of lads holding up an England flag. You can see our boys in blue hard at work apprehending these dangerous, far Right hate-mongers here.
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I think if you really believe in freedom of speech it’s best to say that anything goes. As soon as you try to cherry pick what you think should be allowed, you are setting yourself up for a fall.
Trouble is, if you take that approach then you cancel out hate speech. Should actual hate speech be allowed? It’s dodgy terrain because who gets to set the parameters or definitions for either?
I would allow “hate speech”, whatever that is (in the eye of the beholder). Obviously if you import a large number of people who may given the right circumstances be inclined to not really respect your culture, it becomes more difficult to put up with – hence the “trilemma” referred to by Mr Noah Carl in his excellent piece: The Diversity Trilemma and Free Speech – The Daily Sceptic
“Which illustrates a point I made earlier this year in article titled ‘The diversity trilemma’. You can pick two out of the following three: social stability, civil liberties, non-selective immigration. If you pick non-selective immigration, as France has done, you can’t have both social stability and civil liberties.”
We have also had non-selective immigration for decades. Firstly, open borders with the EU (and let’s not pretend that everyone who took advantage of that was a native European …. we have a large contingent of “Dutch” Somalis as well as “French” people from their former colonies and immigrants to the EU from further afield).
Then generational cousin-marriage which is practised in one particular “community” has also imported people on a non-selective basis; as has the university route as “students” ship in their families.
And finally, the so-called points system Johnson put in place lowered the criteria to the point that virtually anyone who has the equivalent of 2 GCSEs can gain entry. Oh, and the shipping in of 100,000 criminal migrants since 2019.
Selective, my ar$e. We have had open borders to extremists in the middle east, Asia and Africa …. and the consequences are now being seen on the streets of London, Edinburgh and other cities.
Yup, totally agree
“Hate speech” is a convenient banner under which to control the narrative.
Hand-in-hand with this is “inciting hatred” which is a convenient way of censoring those with a different view. Some people react negatively to what they hear through choice or a lack of self-control. Other people and organisations understand this and take advantage of it. The government is one such group that weaponises such people but it’s a case of weaponisation for me but not for thee.
There is only speech (and speech people hate). The bad law here should be reformed. Inconsistencies and hypocrisies would dissolve.
I dislike the phrase ‘hate speech.’ It is almost always used as a political device. A long time ago someone said to me, “hate is a very strong word.” The description (at the time it was an admonition) has stuck When you listen to how it is used, it is very clearly overused. Consider it this way, if you hate someone, they have immense power over you. They are in some sense consuming you. I can honestly say I can’t think of anyone I hate. There are people I dislike intensely. Justin Trudeau is one. But hate, no, I wouldn’t grant him anything remotely approaching the privilege. IMO this way of thinking should be born in mind when talking about hate speech and then it becomes abundantly clear, there is almost no such thing. What remains is merely politically disliked speech or speech that someone has decided to take offence by.
Who gets to decide what is and what is not “hate” speech?
Also, we have sufficient legislation as it is to deal with those who overstep the mark. “Hate” speech is part of free speech. Else there is no “free” speech. As we are witnessing.
Now here’s a guy that knows exactly how to maximize his new-found right to freedom of speech/expression. Yes it’s Sweden’s friendly neighbourhood ex-Muslim with a death wish Koran burner, Salwan Momika. I’m torn between admiration, because he’s clearly got balls of titanium, and disbelief, because he’s behaving like some sort of suicidal masochist with sauerkraut for brains. This is his latest antics;
”Amidst the ongoing war between the State of Israel and Hamas, activist Salwan Momika expressed his solidarity with the Jewish nation by stepping on the Quran and waving the Israeli flag.
The incident took place in the Swedish capital of Stockholm on Saturday (21st October). Salwan Momika, an Iraqi refugee living in Sweden, was also seen kissing the Israeli flag and trampling a copy of the Quran with his foot.
A video of the incident has now gone viral on social media.
A day earlier on Friday (20th October), Salwan Momika announced, “Tomorrow I will raise the Israeli flag, declare my solidarity with Israel and burn the Quran and the Palestinian flag in Stockholm.”
https://www.opindia.com/2023/10/sweden-activist-salwan-momika-steps-on-quran-waves-israeli-flag-stockholm/
Oddly enough the only muslim I know at all well is kind of lapsed, or maybe he has apostatised.
The only Muslim in my village is so lapsed that until the hot spell in summer 22 I’d assumed she was a Cypriot.
We were walking our dogs at 10pm and, after chatting about all the juvenile hedgehogs we were encountering, I asked her where she was from.
“Tehran”
I thought they weren’t keen on dogs (one of the few things I have in common with them).
If she came as a result of revolution she might be pretty “moderate”. My mum befriended some Persians who left in ’79 and they are quite westernised, at least on the surface.
Asked her where she was from!!!?
You’re lucky 6 of our brave Plod didn’t turn up to lecture you before sending you to the Gulag for waycism.
Exactly. Allow anyone to say anything and let society decide who should belong in it. We don’t need someone upon high to decide what we can/can’t listen to. Let us be and we will organically judge and serve sentence.
What about saying things that are/could be an incitement to violence e.g. “If you see a TERF punch them in the f***ing face”? Surely there’s a case to be made that this kind of speech should be a criminal offence.
Making it a criminal offence removes the responsibility from those who get triggered by such a comment and commit that crime. This is another way of saying: the population is too feeble minded to control themselves so the government needs to provide that control.
The government could be accused of inciting hatred on a regular basis but I can’t see the incitement laws being applied there.
I think if you shout ‘jihad’, encouraging violence, your free speech rights are gone.
Well who defines “violence” and “encouraging”? How would you define them? Your definition would need to cover cases where you think support for one side in a conflict was legitimate.
I think it’s arguable that the damage done to freedom of speech by having exceptions outweighs any damage done by allowing people to “encourage violence”.
Someone could argue that encouraging people not to get “vaccinated” against “covid” was “encouraging violence”. Given the right circumstances, such as a “deadly pandemic” that represents a “public health emergency”, it seems you can get courts to go along with almost anything.
Encouraging people not to get vaccinated though is the same thing as encouraging them to get it. Since there have been excess deaths as a result of vaccinations. So are we to assume that death from covid is a bad thing but death from vaccine is acceptable?
It’s not about whether encouraging people to get “vaccinated” or not to get “vaccinated” is encouraging violence, it was merely an illustration of how I think any wording restricting speech on grounds of “encouraging violence” could be twisted to suit any purpose, including suppressing speech that quite a few of the btl posters here would not think should be suppressed.
There is a difference between free speech and incitement to violence.
We have always had “free speech under the law.” The law forbids incitement to violence.
I despise the hundreds of thousands marching in support of a terrorist group which slaughtered private citizens in Israel, but they should be allowed to march – in silence.
See my reply to Myra above.
I’ve seen very little of the protests but I am sure I wouldn’t like everything I saw – I am vaguely pro-Israel in this business, in an uninformed way.
But marching in support of something even if you remain silent is still giving “moral” support and “approval” and apparently those two things are against the law.
What’s the score in Israeli v. Palestinian, civilian/children deaths?
I always thought we championed the underdog.
According to Aljazeera today, it’s roughly 5:1 death ratio Palestinan/Israeli. However, the accuracy of such figures is doubtful.
Factor in the deaths of Hamas operatives, Hamas supporters into these ‘innocent Palestinian death’ stats supplied by Hamas controlled Min of Health.
Or just keep a closed mind because you hate Israel?
During WW2 no doubt you’d be trumpeting Goebbels’ propaganda. Maybe move to Gaza and see how Hamas treats you?
Yes, the ‘deaths by proxy’, in that Hamas are physically stopping civilians escaping to safety so they end up getting bombed by Israel, the latter getting the blame even though they gave advanced warnings of any bombings. Yeah, never saw that one coming…
“Civilians escaping to safety” = ethnic cleansing.
It would only be ethnic cleansing if there was any indication civilians wouldn’t be allowed to return to their homes once the conflict was over. Your comment is typical of the way far too many people treat Israel, dammed if they do dammed if they don’t. It’s groups like Hamas, Hezbollah etc. that want to practice ethnic cleansing by wiping the state of Israel off the map.
Well, Israel has a history of ethnically cleansing the indigenous population, while Hamas – an Israeli creation – and Hezbollah are expressing intentions.
Do you seriously think Israel intends to let them back?
Surely the residents of Gaza would be better off anywhere but Gaza?
We do; that’s why we’ve been swallowing Jihadi propaganda uncritically for decades. Tell me, how did Hamas think Israel would react?
Exacly as they are doing.
Hamas and similar were increasingly worried about the prospect of Israel normalising relationships with big Arab players in the region, paricularly Saudi.
There’s little chance of that happening now.
Yes, so given Hamas’s behaviour and intent quite why Israel is the villain of the piece is a mystery to me. Unless people expected them to sit on their hands after the events of 7th October?
The Met Police requires root and branch reform. It’s rotten to the core.
More arrests for anti woke and opposing vaxxes than for Islamist terror supporters.
Shame, shame on them.
Isn’t it amazing how the MET managed to produce some heavily armed thugs to break up Lockdown demonstrations a couple of years ago but are now somehow only able to assist Jihadists in their distinctly provocative and threatening antics. It’s almost as if there are different police forces.
Fishy wouldn’t be up to something?
Would he?
Yes, hux. This contrast in policing says it all. Where do their loyalties lie, because it sure as hell isn’t with the native people? I’ve seen lots of this now. It says a great deal when ISIS flags fit right in but English flags are deemed racist;
https://twitter.com/BFirstParty/status/1716031781508460908
https://twitter.com/LozzaFox/status/1716101900834058552
Mogs, are the plods deliberately trying to upset ordinary, free- thinking English-speaking people by any chance? The trouble-causing Khant would love such provocation and Fishy owes his allegiance anywhere but to the people of this country.
Hux, I think they are just morally bankrupt cowards to be honest.
Do you think this Hamas guy was there? Seems the UK caliphate is coming along nicely, especially when the British government is harbouring and indulging members of a known terrorist organisation and the police appear to be protecting them;
A HAMAS chief is living in a London council house despite previously running terror operations in the West Bank, a report has revealed.
Fugitive Muhammad Qassem Sawalha was given a £112,300 discount on the £320,700 two-storey home by Barnett Council.
Considered Hamas’ “representative in the UK”, Sawalha’s discount was £500 short of the maximum allowed through Right To Buy.
He and wife Sawsan, 56, live mortgage free in the Colindale house, which has a garden and garage, The Sunday Times reports.
Sawalha, 62, was born in Tubas, West Bank, but arrived in the UK from Jordan in the early nineties as a fugitive.
He previously fled Israel after helping Hamas establish a terror presence in his homeland during the late 80s.
He evaded Israeli security services using a relative’s passport.
Despite his activities, he was granted a British passport in the early Noughties and handed a council house in 2003.
A 2004 US probe revealed he was holding secret talks in the UK about “revitalising” terrorism in Israel.”
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/24482299/hamas-chief-living-in-council-house-muhammad-qassem-sawalha/
“he was known to MI5”
So perhaps he wasn’t that crafty but MI5 needed to avoid stepping on the toes of an MI6/Mossad asset?
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/24482299/hamas-chief-living-in-council-house-muhammad-qassem-sawalha/
Now why would the Sun be allowed to print such a story?
Lord Sumption had something to say about this in his Unherd interview.
The German law is also quite clear and correct, I shared it here B4.
My 5cts: I am a free speech absolutist, but even if one isn’t, if in doubt, err on the side of it.
Those who resort to hatespeech discredit themselves over time, the audience isn’t that stupid (yet), as one can see in the, widely and deliberately misinterpreted, poll (the correct interpretation is that 2/3rds can see both sides points/don’t give a fig).
The real issue here though is that Covid protesters were an easy and compliant middle of society target, radical Muslims aren’t and the police as well as civil servants are sh*tting their pants when they are forced to deal with them.
Those who are here legally have the same rights as we have.
That we should never have let them and most others in and had better listened to Enoch Powell is a different issue.
What will be cheaper and safer for The West?
Option A: Find a way to safely evacuate all Jewish Israelis, just under 8 million, I believe, to friendly Western nations and set them up with new homes and give them head starts to prosperity. At the same time, stop the idiotic importation of millions of “refugees” and “immigrants” from bleep-hole countries where the Religion of Peace is dominant.
Option B: Continue the importation of millions of “Refugees” from the Religion of Peace and in the meantime watch the inevitable destruction of Israel and the second genocide of Israeli Jews later followed by the genocide of Jews living in newly Islamified Western countries. Or, possibly we could have the nuclear holocaust that results from defending Israel from the maniacs in power in Iran.
The Mainstream Media is hoping for Option B, it appears. I’m not terribly optimistic for the long term survival of Israel but it sure would be nice to save the people there.
Imagine if the Ashkenazi Jews had moved to Noo Joysey instead of Palestine….
If only it could be that simple but the reality is the various branches of Islam also despise each other and would soon start fighting even if there were no Jews left in Israel. They link this latest conflict to the talks between Israel and Saudi Arabia on trade.
If our government is supporting Israel, that must be because such support is against our interests.
After all, all governments since 97 have acted against the interests of our country, people and culture.
(I’m not saying no governments before 97 acted in such a way – decimalisation and metrication were vicious acts of cultural vandalism – but they weren’t anywhere near as open about it and the rate of destruction was at least an order of magnitude slower.)
Re the video:
How or why is waving the national flag of England – in England – racist?
If people are being shot or punched or otherwise physically attacked, the police should intervene.
Other than that, leave well alone.
Trouble is, our policepeople are scared of things actually getting violent where this specific bit of trouble is concerned. Says a lot.
The likes of you and me, peacefully protesting about having centuries of hard-won freedoms trampled all over in the name of “safety” and “the NHS” because of a flu virus were so much easier to boss around because they knew that we’re basically peace and freedom-loving people.
Tricky, isn’t it, Mr Plod?
It is ofcourse against the law to support terrorism and that includes moral support or approval. But as is often the case this is at the Home Office’s discretion. Which effectively means government can pick and choose for political reasons who is and who isn’t to be prosecuted, making a mockery of law.
It was my impression that the duty of the Police is to ENFORCE the law.
Now it seems, they INTERPRET the law. I’m not sure that that is their job
Yes
We are told by our security forces that we have imported 1000’s of jihad supporters i fact a JIHAD ARMY on their watch so was this army against the Uk in any of the marches?
This fundamentalist army experienced our weak woke police force and are now emboldened.
Their fellow soldiers coming across the channel emboldened by our weak woke RLNI and navy.
I believe in free speech too. This was a marching army for the future Uk caliphate.
My understanding is that Muhammad was a warlord which predates the red herring Isreal.
This is theocratic totalitarianism on our streets and still arriving.
Time to reinstate the riot act perhaps?
Or have a quiet word with those calling for Jihad by pointing out that the only place it can happen is on the streets of Gaza city.
I wonder if the seeming boldness of the marchers is anything to do with our famously unarmed police force?