Is It Moral to Arm a Country Under Martial Law?
Back in early March, when the war in Ukraine was only 10 days old, I asked whether it was wise for Western countries to pour arms into Ukraine, since this could easily prolong the conflict, leading to many more Ukrainian deaths. Other commentators have raised the same question, including the New York Times editorial board.
A common answer is that Ukrainians want to fight. In other words, even if pouring arms in does prolong the conflict, that’s a risk Ukrainians are willing to take. And certainly, many Ukrainians do want to fight. But is this true of enough Ukrainians to give the argument force?
After all, Ukraine is under martial law. As of 24th February, able-bodied men aged 18–60 are banned from leaving the country – a measure which arguably violates their human rights. Even citizens who live abroad but happened to be visiting on the date of Russia’s invasion have been unable to leave.
At the present time, only soldiers and reservists are obliged to take up arms. But as losses mount, others could be drafted. And evidence suggests that losses are mounting. Zelensky recently told Newsmax that Ukraine is losing about 600 men a day – 60-100 killed, plus 500 wounded. Over a month, this adds up to 18,000 men. These figures almost certainly underestimate total casualties, as they refer only to the Donbas, and may not include those who are missing in action.
In a recent interview with Channel 4, one British man who went to fight said he wouldn’t stop others from going “as long as you understand the reality that you will be used as cannon fodder”.
Supplying arms to a country that has banned men from leaving is fundamentally different from supplying arms to a country that has a wholly professional (i.e., volunteer) army. In the latter case, everyone who takes part in combat was aware of the risks when he signed up. In the former case, this simply isn’t true.
Weapons the West has supplied to Ukraine may end up in the hands of men who never wanted to fight. And some of those men may die. Back in April, the New York Times spoke to a number of men who did not want to fight. One said he had two nephews in the Russian army, and did not want to “kill my own family”.
If the West is to continue arming Ukraine, we should – at the very least – insist that those men who wish to leave the country be allowed to do so.
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Britain is still under Martial Law so the answer is no
We are not in 1970.
When was martial law in the 1970’s?
Not exactly. I would say that Britain was occupied by an enemy force. The fact that neither they nor we fired a shot during this occupation does not make it any less of a conquest.
What? You do understand martial law, right? It means you cannot leave your nation without permission. Guess what, we can leave freely. It means they have total control of messaging. Well clearly they don’t because neither of us is being arrested. It means counts defer to government. Ours hasn’t.
i agree March 2020 we came dang close to it. And I ignored the rules that I could, That was close, and we must never allow such again. But we were also under martial law from early 1940 to 1944. Then it was valid because someone was trying to erase our nation. I assume you are okay with that one.
“Then it was valid because someone was trying to erase our nation”
Utter nonsense: the Germans were trying to defeat us after we declared war on them.
If anybody is trying to erase our nation it is governments since 1997.
Oh those poor Germans, minding their own business, occupying nothing but sun loungers, expressing nothing but good will to all mankind and they get picked on for no good reason by the English who just want to fight them on the beaches. History is indeed written by the victors…
Couple of interesting titbits – In 1938 Poland annexed a part of Czechoslovakia for the same reason Germany did
2 weeks after Germany invaded Poland so did Stalin – we never declared war on Russia
Because Churchill correctly assessed that the alliance between Stalin and Hitler was unstable, and that one day the SU could be an ally.
I don’t think you will find Churchill had much to do with ‘Barbarossa’ .
Stalin would have been quite happy to continue the arrangement.
For awhile yes, but Churchill understood that Hitler was not the most reliable ally in history…
Fingal bollox alert.
Spouting shit as usual.
Careful, Luke Warm. This bit of history is the scene of one of your all-time dumbest contributions.
Ey up, Ursula von der Leyen and the Nearhorburian Division have given me a downtick.
“Utter nonsense: the Germans were trying to defeat us after we declared war on them.”
They would not have left us alone.
In fairness, it was Cecil who wrote that we are under Martial Law (hyperbole). Dodgy Geezer actually wrote that we aren’t.
Imo you and he are correct, we aren’t under martial law. But he’s also correct that we are in effect under enemy occupation, though it’s a bit like communist countries where the occupying force was mostly indigenous fanatics and opportunists.
Our woke globalist ruling elites hate Britishness as much as they hate normality in all it forms and have been trying to extinguish it for decades.
‘… we can leave freely.’
Have you tried that without going through Passport control with a valid Passport?
Just buy a RIB.
I am well aware of the provisions of Martial Law, and as mentioned below, I did not claim that we were under it. I claimed that our living conditions now resemble conquest by an enemy force – very much as Mark points out below….
Yes, when are the MPs going to wake up repeal Johnson’s “Special Powers” and restore Parliamentary Sovereignty?
Baked in now mate. Sorry.
Why would they do that? Nothing in it for them.
When the most battle hardened of them all Azov surrenders, you can guess that ‘all ukrainians wanting to fight’ is just another propaganda myth
You do understand that was no all of Azoz. Azov units are fighting in Donbas & Kharkiv. As to them surrendering, you wanted them to die in a blaze of glory? The Alamo or Thermopile? And the deal struck to allow surrender is those troops are to exchanged for Russian POWs and dead. That was why they agreed, with the goal they can fight again elsewhere.
i assume you believe that the fact British troops surrendered in spots (some of our best) meant we had no will to fight Hitler.
are you able to share more details of the ‘deal’ you mentioned? as Russia and LDPR say they’re not going to exchange Azov members, who are going to be tried by the court instead. And there is more than enough Ukrainian POWs to exchange for Russians.
Azov members stated on record: ‘no Mariupol, no Ukraine’. you’d assume they meant fighting till the end, but they’ve changed their mind.
At least you’re not talking about ‘evacuation’ anymore. Hope is not lost.
Well it’s easy to say fight to the end until you’re starving in a bunker with no hope of survival. There are very few that mean it. Ultimately, 99% of us cling to every moment of life.
it’s not me who’s saying ‘fight to the end’ it was Azov themselves
Thermopile? Is that some sort of nuclear weapon?
Battle of Thermopylae q,v.
’twas but a joke inspired by the good doctor’s spelling.
It was called Chernobyl and that pile got pretty damned thermo.
Morning after a night on the Guinness.
And a curry.
I thought it was a medical condition.
“As to them surrendering, you wanted them to die in a blaze of glory?“
Certainly the world is the better when such murderous zealots are gone.
Prokopenko and “Volyn” in mid-April:
“But last night, commander of 36th marine brigade Serhii Volyna and commander of the ultranationalist Azov regiment Denys Prokopenko posted a video saying they will never surrender to Putin’s forces.
…
‘These are real men who have chosen the path of war.
‘Don’t make heroes out of deserters and men who surrendered. They chose the path of shame. In no way should these people be heroised.‘”
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10717957/Ukrainian-marines-post-video-Mariupol-Azov-battalion-criticising-comrades-surrendered.html
Prokopenko and “Volyn” in mid-May:
The commander of the 36th Marine Brigade Sergey Volynsky “Volyn” got “evacuated”
“The commander of the 36th Marine Brigade Sergey Volynsky “Volyn” left the territory of Azovstal and surrendered.
Commander of the Azov* Denis Prokopenko (Radish) and Deputy Commander Svyatoslav Palamar (Kalina) also surrendered to the Russian military.
Then entire Azovstal complex was liberated. More than 2,400 soldiers have surrendered.“
Fantasy induced drivel.
Stick to the facts and diagnose the situation as you would have done as a doctor.
More than half the worlds population do not think Putin is wrong.
WTF make you so right?
I don’t think it was a right or wrong situation. He felt threatened and believed he had a moral argument too. It clearly would’ve looked like a good decision at the time. He’s been watching the West’s woke decline and probably didn’t expect anything more than screams of complaint.
But just maybe, the whole thing is a setup. Sanctions that bounce back on us, more money passed to industrial-military complex. Ukrainians & Russians die to help the NWO in the West. Putin was a WEF young leader and at the end of the day it all comes back together.
My hope is that the West’s panic and ire is because Putin has stuck a finger up to Soros and the WEF.
I doubt, on the whole, that the East wanted to fight
I had not considered this issue and don’t know what I should think of it even as my instinctive response to this point, hopefully informed by a good overall sense of the situation. I am glad you have questioned my stance and will try to give the issues further consideration. Thank you.
You are not alone…..I learnt many a valuable lesson during Covid, about people, how they like to think in black and white terms…how easily swayed they are…particularly by the media….how easily they believe the MSM, even when a little thought shows they are talking nonsense….I think this is the same.
Being part of the ‘moral outrage mob’ feels good…everything is black and white, easy..no need to think for yourself or do any independent research….you’re part of the ‘good’ team?. You get to ‘legitimately’ unleash hate on the “enemy”, and be rewarded for it with affirmation from others in the group…it’s a kind of weaponisation of ‘moral outrage’…which the MSM assures you is the ‘current thing’ to be concerned about….manipulating guilt…anger..and the ‘need to do something’….in this instance….to prolong a hopeless war in a country most people know nothing about.
Regrettably people like to hate and inflict pain. They know it’s wrong but give them a means to justify …
Sorry; I left out a key phrase in my earlier comment indicating my general support of support for the actions taken in the Ukraine which you have caused me to consider anew. Thank you.
In the absence of any real news to report about Ukraine, Noah has come up with this.
More Kremlin-loving crap from Putin’s biggest fan.
Go play on a roundabout Fungus
If he has to ask a question about armed militias, it should about about America. Why on earth does the country with the strongest military in the world feel it necessary to tool up its entire population?
It isn’t the strongest military in the world. Dolt.
Many thanks for your interesting contribution to world knowledge.
My pleasure. No, honestly.
You are being self deprecating, aren’t you?
It hasn’t.
The people have armed themselves.
The US armed forces are of absolutely no use in preventing crime.
Only because they haven’t been given the job. Although if they were you can expect a lot more unnecessary shootings, they probably aren’t trained for restraint.
Oh look, a squirrel.
Because the founders of the Republic understood what a tyrannical Government looked like.
“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”
Imagine what Biden’s puppet masters would do undeterred by an unarmed population.
Whataboutery.
More shit from Fingers.
Has the reasons for their 2nd amendment escaped you? It was so the people could resist a tyrannical government, namely us at the time. It is why the Dems are so keen to abolish gun ownership, they plan to be the new tyrannical government. Also with a country already so full of guns; “If you outlaw guns the only gun owners will be outlaws”.
I know why they do it. What I don’t get is why someone should think it’s ok for the US to tool up the population, but not Ukraine.
Considering Ukraine is actually at war.
“Fungus the Bogey Man” and the world of slime – whatever happened to him?
I’m worried personally. I have read Daily Sceptic since near the beginning and agree with 90% of what goes up here. But the commentators have gone full conspiracy lover. It’s like London Calling where James has become both predictable and off the rails. When you start to believe all facts are 180 off of what is reported on BBC, you have lost touch with reality. I’m more Team Toby, trust slowly and verify. The brutal facts remain: as was done in Chechnya and in Syria is now being done to Ukraine. Turning cities to rubble so they are uninhabitable, stealing from populace, extra-judicial killing and rape. Putin has stated he wants to see the end of the Ukrainian identity. That’s at least ethnic cleaning & likely genocide. And yes, Ukraine has neo-Nazis. So does Russia, but he isn’t arresting those guys. Every Western nation had them. Ukraine’s have no popular support, their leaders forced from military, and were never as numerous as Germany, Austria or Italy. During existential Battles nations impose drafts and levies. They make illegal parties that support the enemy (look at the UK during WW2). Ukraine is acting exactly like the UK then, including begging for weapons!… Read more »
where and when?
Absolutely, people are asking Ukraine to do what we would never for a second agree to do ourselves.
I don’t know about you, but I’d be quite happy to refuse to be a nazi and to stop shelling my fellow citizens, but then I’ve never really been into that sort of thing.
Actually Hitler never attacked anybody – they just shelled themselves.
You really aren’t firing on all cylinders today. Is the real Fingal on holiday and the back-up version powered up?
🙂
You demonstrate that the “Parallel Universe” really does exist.
Background reading and research is so important.
The lady who was spreading the rape stories, Lyudmila Denisova, has just been sacked as Ukrainian human rights ombudsman because the Ukrainian government were so embarrassed by her “evidence free” tales of sexual violence, even they don’t believe them. For something to be so mendacious as to shame the Ukrainian government, it has to be pretty bad.
As usual, the problem is what you “know” that isn’t true. Much of what you asserted there is either flat false or grossly distorted.
You absolutely demonstrate the desperate need for places like DS. Like the victims of the covid panic, you genuinely believe all the nonsense you are fed, and think those questioning it are deluded.
That’s be the Biased Brainwashing Cult that always has its own political agenda?
Start getting your news from something reliable and not the BBC.
When you start to believe all facts are 180 off of what is reported on BBC … you are starting to see reality.
Hey, Coxford, you have spotted my msm strategy. I always assume that the BBC completely inverts the truth.
I’ve agreed with many of the things you’ve said in relation to covid but I think you’re flat out wrong here I’m afraid. ‘Conspiracy lover’ ? There have in the truest sense of the word been conspiracies. Criminal conspiracies between big Pharma, regulatory agencies, governments, the media. It is extremely naive to believe otherwise. And with regard to Russia, I suggest you look into Syria a little more closely. Were it not for Russia protecting the country’s sovereignty and territorial integrity it would right now be a number of failed states and caliphates, with America, Britain, Turkey and France squarely to blame. The US still illegally occupies the oil rich region of Syria. Why?
Astonishing. He flips from rational, factual covid scepticism to hysterical, emotional Putin Derangement Syndrome.
I have pointed out elsewhere that DS was a convenient outlet for those who thought themselves sceptics, but in reality they woke up momentarily, then went straight back to sleep.
There’s a bloody big conspiracy going on called establish the NWO at any cost.
Stop drinking the industrial strength Kool Aid FFS.
Zelenskyy shot first, for seven days before Russia intervened.
If Russia wanted to occupy Ukraine it could have, with it’s 2,000,000 troops instead of 150,000.
If Russia wanted to destroy cities it could have with a few conventionally armed hypersonic missiles.
If Russia is the aggressor, why hasn’t the west intervened with boots on the ground? Under UN policies, it’s required to.
Stop being such an over emotional simpleton FFS!
Same lie, repeated.
I think Ukraine has been shooting each other since 2014. I certainly am confused that Russia has been so constrained. I don’t think we were in Iraq for the simple reason it minimises your own casualties.
“Putin has stated he wants to see the end of the Ukrainian identity.”
Has he stated he wants them dead? I think he believes they should be part of Russia.
Anything that doesn’t align 100% with the agenda you have swallowed or are promoting (delete as appropriate) is “Kremlin-loving crap” to you, isn’t it? Go back in your cave, Fingal.
It’s a non story. He hasn’t got anything to say, so he made up this.
You make everything up Fingers, so you know it when you see it.
Hi LukeWarm. How about you write an insulting comment wherever you see my name?
Oh – I see you already have!
Today I am going to be staying less than 20 miles from the western Ukrainian border. I can assure you that healthy men under 60 are currently using the opportunity to have an extended holiday in Europe during the current “war”. I’m sure it is no coincidence that they all seem affluent and flush with cash. The locals are pretty pissed off that at the end of their stay, the Ukrainians often buy a new high-end car to take home with them as a souvenir (seriously). They are wondering why their media keeps showing poor Ukrainian refugees but all they see for themselves are families of rich business men, filling tourist attractions and the restaurants. Ukrainians also get free train travel, entrance to museums and other perks, while the prices for locals simultaneously doubled.
During a war or other social disruption there are always profiteers. We saw the same thing happening in Britain during both world wars, as well as during the Covid epidemic…
Are you referring to the government ministers?
🙂
oops ignore, can’t find delete, only edit
Well where does quite a chunk of Western funny money “aid” end up?
Interesting. So who is fighting, the poor?
Do you have any corroboration?
Is It Moral to Arm a Country Under Martial Law?
What has morality got to do with it?
If the country which is fighting is allied to you, or it is in your interests that the country should win its war, then it is worth you supporting them. It is a straightforward calculation of foreign policy aims. Morality does not enter into it.
In what sense are we “allied” to Ukraine?
Or how do we gain if Ukraine wins. We already appear to be worse off as a nation.
Corruption.
Britain didn’t want to be allied with Poland and Romania when voting Brexit, but suddenly we’re allied with Ukraine… because BBC says so, obviously
Pretty much, I think.
For Ukraine it’s mostly a case of “worse than a crime, it’s a blunder” (from the pov of the people of Britain, as opposed to those making the decisions, obviously).
According to several sources (not the mouthpieces of the CIA, or the local UK MI6 rags you usually tout on here), Voldomor Ekenskyyyy is likely to be no more shortly and what’s left of Ukraine will be left to the “Russian hordes” (eh Fungus, Monro et al?) as well as the Polish who are already making inroads into the North Western provinces, and to the south, Moldova and Transnistra.
The only “people” prolonging this SMO (that ought to trigger our resident parasites) are the Empire of Lies.
Wow, selective sourcing there. Hey if you don’t listen to BBC, Telegraph and others but listen to my sources, Boris Johnson is planning a coup. Don’t doubt it!
I believe in testing the credibility of all species. But I don’t automatically exclude those of mainstream media because surprise they are often right.
Or you could make some sort of relevant comment.
About climate change? perhaps WMD’s?
Maybe covid? Or by chance BBC employed child abusers?
Grow up sonny.
I’m not alone. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣👍👍👍👍
Well it’s for certain that if they want to stop this disastrous for everyone war they’ll have to give Zelensky a new identity, a few million and hide him somewhere or someone will kill him. I think we help compliant leaders or the next ones ignore us.
But I don’t think they’ll stop until sure the damage is locked in or the Great Reset may fail.
He already has a few million it was reported in the Panama papers.
Some of the weapons sent to Ukraine are being sold in other countries, that’s one place where money is being made (no point in wasting a good weapon by firing it at someone, when you can sell it and make a few quid).
It appears that many Ukranian civilians were threatened and had to join up.
Young trainee Ukranian soldiers are now being sent to fight. What chance do they have against trained Russian soldiers?
No way Ukraine could be doing this well against was supposed be the world’s number 2 army, if what you say were true.
It may be a common answer, but how true is it?
Updated 1st june here: https://sonar21.com/ukrainian-military-units-betrayed-by-their-commanders/
ImpObs, I’m afraid hard facts like those you shared are simply spilling your seed on stony ground when it comes to our fact-lite blog parasites from the 77th.
But do keep it up, it annoys the hell out of. ’em.
These threads are a surreal comedy (if you don’t engage them) it’s almost as bad as these “battles” staged for Ukranian TV home viewing…
https://southfront.org/breaking-staged-battles-of-ukrainian-army/
I was confused by the many pictures I’ve seen of airsoft weapons in a lot of Ukranian pictures in the last few weeks. But as you can see in the video, they use them to fire flashbang shots special effects to provide action shots for the cameras.
Videos have been shown to be stolen from Video Combat Games.
par for the course, I recall ITV airing a video game sequence claiming it was the IRA. This is slightly different though, actually staging combat footage to air on Ukranian TV, though not quite as bad as the BBC Panorama program staging false flag chemical attacks with the White Helmets.
So where are the heavy weapons going? $40B of them!
Seems most of it will never get converted into weapons, it is all a big money laundering scam. Another 2008 moment for the western financial ponzi scheme.
Slightly off topic, but…
“As of 24th February, able-bodied men aged 18–60 are banned from leaving the country”. Where were all the articles from the many very vocal feminists screaming about equality. Strange how their version of equality never extends to wanting a job down a sewer or dying on the battlefield. Nope, something as repulsive as this, and the feminists are nowhere to be seen
Well, to be fair several million have left the country and left their blokes to it.
But to ad little balance we have seen propaganda pictures of pretty young Ukrainian women defiantly holding guns in Kiev, but none from the front line.
Many Ukrainians have been trying to get out of the country since the CIA Maidan coup of 2014 when the economy tanked – many more have now taken their chance. Hardly any are from combat zones.
Reports in Western Media of their crossing into Poland to get into the EU over the last 8 years have been there for all to see.
Apparently Poland is now withdrawing automatic benefits for the large numbers arriving.
my grandfather was at the upper end of available age category with 3 kids when he was forced to fight in WW2. Key word forced. He was wounded severely in Belgium in 1944. But you know, that is what nations do when facing an existential crisis. Unless you argue it was immoral for nations with draft in WW2 to be armed, your argument has no merit. If you think to is immoral to do so, then you clearly wish that Germany would have won that war (and WW1). Is that your belief? As to continuing the bloodshed, you do realize that a ceasefire now only allows for Russia to grab territory equal to the size of England and Wales to Newcastle, rearm, and complete the oft-stated vision by Russian government and media to erase Ukraine. Which will result in the mass incarceration and murder of hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians (think I’m exaggerating, listen to Putin’s comments and those of RT daily). As to bring nothing more than target practice for Russians, yes. They are. Because we still have not given them enough ammo & long-range weapons to succeed everywhere. But take a look at Russian losses and the fact… Read more »
Think you’re exaggerating? why, yes.
Putin is oft heard repeating the exact same SMO boundaries, no more, no less. So, source your claim that he has stated that he wants to “erase Ukraine”. You can’t. Its propaganda.
You talk of Ukraine as if it had a unified purpose. It is not a single unified nation and that is the whole point of this conflict, it is about a large, officially repressed group of people fighting for self determination.
Ukraine is every bit as united as Russia.
Which means, not entirely in either case.
Is that relevant? Nor is this country. Nor is America
I agree it’s not relevant, so why did you say it? The fact that Ukraine is not 100% unified does not justify Putin’s invasion.
Are you feeling well. You seem to be significantly underperforming. Back to your cave for a rest.
I think you’ve been reading too much BBC fella. The continuation of the West to arm Ukraine has led to more destruction and loss of life than if they had agreed (or at least acknowledged it as a starting point for negotiations) to Putin’s offer back in March; that is beyond doubt. It didn’t happen because the war appears to be a proxy one with the US at the helm, so Ukrainians are not necessarily even fighting for their own land – they are dying for US’s grand regime change plans. How many more deaths are you willing to see before you recognise that a long conflict here is worse than a short one? Maybe you think nuclear escalation is a risk worth taking? Are you willing to put yourself and your family in mortal danger? Or does your support of death and destruction only extend as far as the end of your sofa? Your belief that Putin intends to capture the whole of Ukraine is one that has been fed to you by various propaganda channels; if you have any evidence of your assertion then please provide it. I would say that anyone who sees this conflict as black… Read more »
It absolutely does not follow that opposing Putin’s invasion means a black and white view of Russia or Russians.
Russia itself is suffering under a dictatorship. Putin has sent young Russian men to die pointlessly in Ukraine and doesn’t give a damn about it.
Russia is not under a ‘dictatorship and nothing in terms of corruption can ever compete with the 2020 stealing of the US election revealed now daily on a grand, previously unimaginable scale!
In any case what has the Russian system of Government for the largest and arguably most “diverse” county on earth got to do with an overcrowded little European off- shore island with fading glory and sad delusions of Imperial Grandeur?
6th of January “insurgents”, still detained without charge 18 months later.
Guantanamo bay and extraordinary rendition unique to the USA and UK.
Fingers would be a cretin, but he’s just too stupid.
Russia didn’t invade, it intervened.
Russia is a democracy and it’s population has been free to come and go from the country since 1989.
Putin has been principle in building 30,000 Christian Churches across the country. Not the behaviour of a dictator.
Fingers, making shit up as usual.
What on earth are you talking about now? Dictators can use religion if it suits
I don’t think Putin is 100% democrat!
But I’m sure it’s been better under Putin than the SU.
The big mistake was not integrating Russia after the fall of the SU. Why didn’t we?
anyone who still sees this conflict as black and white is most likely clinically insane
let Ukrainians fight so that Biden’s son can have a better life…
That is what happens in wars. I don’t know why you got down ticks. I’m not sure they want to “erase” Ukraine beyond their Western alignment. Ok maybe the extremists that were already attacking Russian speakers before this.
World’s 3rd most corrupt nation.
Not a member of NATO.
Not a historic ally of the UK.
Not in the UKs strategic, vital, national interest.
Centuries of conflict between Russia and Ukraine over this land.
Not our fight.
I think I’ve heard this before…some bloke called Chamberlain…’a quarrel in a far away country between people of whom we know nothing”.
That worked out well, didn’t it?
Well, that is not exactly what happened, now, isit? As ever you over-simplify to try to draw a rather stupid parallel.
Declaring war on Germany in 1939 was one of the most self-destructive acts ever by a UK government.
I suspect that even on the Daily Sceptic you’re in a minority when it comes to saying we shouldn’t have fought Hitler.
What did we gain from it?
At least after WW1 we got their African colonies, though they were hardly worth the death of a single serviceman.
Whether we gained is a different question from whether it was the right thing to do. Not least because the counter factual are impossible to work out.
From a military point of view I think we would have done better to declare war in 1938 instead of signing the Munich Agreement. (It would have been a smaller war, the German people might not have supported it, and the trade blockade on Germany might have worked, in the absence of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact). But in this alternative world we might have ended up with other world wars based on Japanese or Russian imperialism – who knows?
‘The right thing to do” – the favourite phrase of Tony Blair and Yvette Cooper!
The whiff of posturing, sanctimonious, moral superiority and hypocrisy fills the air!
Meanwhile the rest of the world practices “Realpolitk”!
I didn’t specify moral right. Very possibly, taking on Hitler was the right thing to do in every possible way, because he might well have come for us anyway later (or at the very least relieved us of our empire, which seems to be what troubles Mr Beaton.)
I have no doubts he would’ve come for us. In the nature of the beast.
In the end we gained nothing and lost everything – in 15 years virtually the entire Empire had gone – we were not even allowed by the US to protect our own investment in the Suez Canal.
We would have lost the empire anyway – as in, granted independence to anyone who wanted it.
You seem to forget that in 1939 Britain was only 20 years away from the previous bout of German expansionism. It was still very fresh in peoples’ memories and experience.
It is silly to try to judge the reasons for his decision a century on from that conflict.
Agree. He would not have stopped in France.
Yes ! The old FO was stunned when Chamberlain offered this unique undertaking. They knew it was totally unsustainable and unsupported by any physical means. It perhaps even encourage the Poles to more readily face the possibility of war as they expected British help… which never came..
The alliance with Poland was a last-gasp attempt to persuade Hitler not to attack. It made him hesitate a few days, but no more than that.
It’s different. Putin doesn’t behave like Hitler (yet).
Putin is no Hitler, but he has used very similar tactics in foreign policy. Using ethnic Russian speakers as an excuse for invasion – that’s straight out of the Hitler playbook.
And the arguments about whether it would be better to let him get away with it – it’s uncanny how similar they are.
But Putin is no Hitler.
So true…but it’s the fight of the US Government, our very bestest friend so we know (and are definitely told) what we have to do
Neatly put!
You know what, Noah? Go to Ukraine and ask the local man about it and see what happens. You can also try to explain them your other statements.
If you are not brave enough come here to Czechia ant try it try it on one of the hundred thousand wives of the men who stayed at home in Ukraine
Which Ukrainian man should he ask? One from the west of the country or one of the “third class citizens” (Ukrainian government description of the Russian speakers in Donbass) from the east?
This conflict started because some Ukrainians wanted to fight other Ukrainians, and this is still the case. The West decided to support and arm one group, Russia chose to support and arm the other group.
And if Putin hadn’t armed the rebels back in 2014, the whole thing would never have started.
lol better go fact check ABCnews
https://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2014/04/ukraines-offensive-falters-as-elite-units-defect-to-pro-russia-side
Check some more, and you’ll find massive Russian involvement both before and after that date.
Well of course, they were all part of the same Soviet Union not many years ago.
So you think we should bring back the Soviet Union?
Did I say that? Of course I didn’t. There you go making it all up again.
Fingal? Make shit up?
Never……
Show us the evidence Fingers.
Oh wait, you never provide evidence for anything.
You just make shit up.
As if the US hadn’t already got its sticky fingers in the pie. How long will it take you to realise that this is not simply big, bad Russia repressing poor little Ukraine?
Russia has always been vastly more interventionist in Ukraine than the US – just off the scale in comparison.
Colour me totally unconvinced by your lack of cogent argument. An assertion is not fact without at least a little bit of evidence, and the trouble with finding evidence is that people hide it, so you never get to see a lot of it.
Following the end of the SU, Russia ran proxy governments in Ukraine using the massive hydrocarbon bribes which turned the country into one of the most corrupt in the world (as Belarus still is).
Russia never allowed Ukraine to be a true independent country, and intervened to prevent them gravitating towards the EU.
In recent years Russia intervened in the most destructive way possible, with multiple invasions.
Whatever funds or encouragement the US may allegedly have given, it wouldn’t touch the sides of the Russian bribes which came in barrels of oil and cubic metres of gas.
Just keep making shit up dummy.
Never, because it’s not an opinion, it’s a script.
The only thing our government’s support of Ukraine usefully demonstrates is our political class are selected not elected. They promote the aims of distant overlords of various types, none of whom care about us or Ukrainians. If we were sincere about tackling existential crises here or anywhere else, this is the top list of things that are an actual threat to the existence of Britain as a sovereign nation and the British as a distinct people: Mass immigration from the third world the demographic changes we already see may not be survivable; the promotion of diversity and inclusion is propaganda to excuse what most historians would recognize as colonization of the UK by foreigners; every major western nation is facing this Economic ruin multiple causes, but the effects are visible and difficult to fix; this will cause very real economic hardship to ordinary people The destruction of individual responsibility and the downplaying of resilience these are the traditional hallmarks of the British; our own grandparents would not have accepted lockdowns and related commands; we are mentally weaker than that generation I don’t care about Ukraine. I do not want the UK government to be involved at any level. We have… Read more »
Amen to that.
There is no point debating the morality of the war until you end the war. That means getting the US and UK (predominantly) to stop interfering…The Ukrainian government must be allowed and enabled to make peace.
As part of that enablement the west should drop all sanctions, return stolen foreign reserves, and work to stabilize the world economy.
Only after peace is secured can a rational discussion take place over the morality of ALL the actions (Russian, Western, and Ukrainian) that led to conflict……
(what will happen though is simple…if you want a fire to keep burning…just throw on more fuel……)
I get that you’re pro Russian, but how you can come up with this as a credible solution beats me. You’re asking Ukraine to completely give up – let Putin take control – and then see if he’s willing to be nice.
It’s called the Surrender Strategy.
This is every bit as pointless as those who argued we should talk peace to Galtieri while he was in possession of the Falklands. He was never going to withdraw by negotiation.
If Putin gets control, he’s never going to give it back voluntarily.
As I never agree with a single thing you say, I will reply once and once only.
You think anyone who doesn’t think that Ukraine and Elenskyy are whiter than white, totally right and moral…is pro—Putin, so forgive me, but you are talking nonsense…but not only nonsense, but trying to stifle any debate with the ‘righteous indignation’ of a ten year old.
When this is all over and Ukraine is either no more, or fighting continues into year seven and eight…come back then and tell me how they ‘won’…
Who do you see stepping up to stop what is happening? How long do you think it can continue? How many Ukrainians have to die so you feel they have a win?
Elensky himself is talking, constantly, of the need to find a diplomatic solution…why won’t the West let him, or assist him?
I appreciate you can’t/won’t think about that because it would necessitate having to look at the West’s agenda for Ukraine….something you pretend isn’t happening….
The agenda for the West is that Ukraine should be free to run its own affairs and one day, perhaps, be eligible to join the EU.
Not exactly evil.
That may be what the west says its agenda is (and I am not sure that that is actually what they said) but you have to be extremely naive to accept that at face value.
Do you think Putin is ok with Ukraine running its own affairs including applying to the EU, if it wants to?
I think it’s all tied into the Great Reset one way or another.
No it’s not but …
How about if Scotland wants to join the Russian Federation and have exercises with Russian troops?
OK not identical but principally similar.
Is it moral to spaff £Billions of taxpayers money on weapons of war for another country when you have already shut down the economy in your own country by imposing needless lockdowns, causing the destruction of the economy, the NHS and the national work ethic apparently, incurring a huge national debt and rampant inflation?
It simply doesn’t matter to us where the border between Russia and Ukraine is, and our behaviour in Serbia, Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan and Syria reveals our government as utter hypocrites when they claim to be upholding the sovereignty of states or international law.
Deaths would clearly be minimised by a swift Russian victory.
And even more so by a swift Ukrainian victory, as it will prevent the creation of a new Palestinian-style diaspora.
” a swift Ukrainian victory” isn’t going to happen.
Er – in case you haven’t noticed, neither is a swift Russian victory.
But they are on their way to a victory nevertheless. I don’t believe it was the Russians who said it would be quick. That was one of the many claims made by the West that have proved to be way off the mark.
The Russians are moving slowly forward through in-depth defensive lines that the Ukrainians have been constructing for years as if they knew they were going to be needed.
Niether the terrain nor the defences are conducive to blitz-krieg tactics, that will come once the Russians move past Kramatorsk and Sloviansk.
And none of this is something 4 HIMARS systems can do anything about, the Ukrainians will need tanks and they are pretty much on their uppers in that respect. Perhaps they should order some more from Russia, but with extra reverse gears.
But more than that. They are losing experienced troops at quite a rate and conscripts even faster.
It is frankly totally foolhardy for St Z to prolong this conflict, and the longer he does the worse the settlement terms will become and the more young and not-so-young men will die.
Anyone who says they know how this war is going to end is kidding themselves.
Russia started with a massive advantage in almost every type of equipment. But their heavy armour advantage seems to have been neutralised, while their aircraft are not operating as freely as you would expect. However they retain a massive advantage in artillery and missiles, and this is where almost all their success is coming from.
Are they going to keep that advantage? You absolutely can’t assume that. In this war, Ukraine’s equipment is actually improving, while Russia’s is degrading.
But the fog of war is thick so it’s hard to see how’s going to play out.
The greatest advantage they have over the West is that their leader has said that ‘Mothers are Women and Fathers are Men’. It puts them streets ahead of the West morally, ideologically and also biologically.
Just to remind you, one of Hitler’s big mistakes till late in the war was to basically leave the women in the kitchen, rather than build them into the war machine.
Irrelevant burbling. You misunderstand my point.
Social conservatism doesn’t help you win military victories.
Do you seriously believe what you are saying?
I posted this here a few months back (I think before the SMO), so apologies if you’ve seen it already. An interesting Russian pov, though, I think.
The Right to Insanity: A New Ideology of “Woke” Western
Elites and Its Consequences
I don’t think anyone thinks Ukraine will achieve a military victory, and that includes the Yanks who are desparately seeking an off ramp that doen’t completely sink the Dems in the mid-terms.
I have no idea how you came to the conclusion that Russia’s equipment is degrading. Their factories are operating flat out to supply munitions and equipment via secure, established supply chains and are clearly not running out of cash thanks to inept financial measures from the west. Contrast this with Ukraine’s position of taking hand-out from their puppetmasters.
But the most crucial factor is that the Russians have professional military people running their campaign, and Putin lets them get on with it. Not only that, but they are also being allowed to develop their tactics in such a way that they are going to be a much more formidable opponent to any agressor in a conventional European war. I am sure that is another one of the unforeseen consequences of the West’s ineptitude.
Our government don’t appear to be too worried about upholding the sovereignty of Northern Ireland, or doing anything about the incursion of thousands of invaders across the south coast of England, which is also an issue of sovereignty.
Morality doesn’t come into to it – we are talking Political Theatre and cheap propaganda.
Is this ‘moral’? PARIS Interpol expressed serious concern on Wednesday about the delivery of small and heavy weapons to Ukraine that can end up in the hands of criminals in Europe. Agency head Jurgen Stock urged countries supplying military equipment to Kyiv to focus on tracing mechanisms. The European police agency Europol is concerned about who will end up with the weapons supplied by the European Union to Ukraine, Deutsche Welle reports. Director, Catherine de Bolle said her department plans to create an international working group to develop a strategy in this matter. She noted that Europol records the secret movements of terrorists known to the authorities and extremists ready for violence between Ukraine and the European Union. The US government is struggling to track large quantities of “lethal aid” shipped to Ukraine in recent months amid raging conflict in the country, according to a stunning new revelation. Top security officials were quoted as saying by CNN on Tuesday that the US intelligence agencies had “almost zero” ability to follow the consignments to their final destination, referring to it as “the largest recent supply to a partner country in a conflict.” “We have fidelity for a short time, but when it enters… Read more »
There is no way Ukraine will be allowed to join the EU any time soon with all the weapons freely available to anyone.
I find it refreshing that a country fighting an aggressor has banned it’s primary resource for combatting the aggressor from leaving, in fact it makes perfect sense both morally and militarily.
It seems to me Noah Carl’s argument re-Ukraine is like saying, if a friend gets set upon and gets beaten up by a gang, we should stand to one side and tell him he should have seen it coming, could have avoided it if he wanted to, and – oh dear, knives could come out – so, other friends, don’t get involved, because he’s not “that good enough” of a friend and intervening might just encourage the gang to use knives.
“I’m pretty sure it will be safest and best if we stand back and let him get knocked out quickly, at that point they will probably leave him alone and hopefully won’t stab him. I’m pretty sure it will be over quicker if we do nothing. It would be really silly to help because then we might just be encouraging them to use the knives and goodness, we might also get stabbed.”
And yes we might. If life is a dead cert. there is no such thing as bravery.
one of those most flawed arguments. No one’s preventing US/NATO/Europe to enter full scale conflict with Russia with boots on the ground, risking nuclear annihilation. That would be the metaphorical ‘standing up to a gang…’. Instead, US/NATO/West cowardly sends weapons (a lot of them old and outdated) which only prolongs the conflict and cause more Ukrainian solders and civilians to suffer.
Something tells me you’re not on the front line either calling for more deadly supplies. A bit pathetic.
No, Noah Carl’s argument is don’t even throw your friend a weapon to protect himself with in case the gang notices and comes for the friends. Let’s just hope he get’s beaten up quickly and the gang stop there and don’t notice the group of “friends.”
A good illustration of the dangers of abuse of the domestic analogy.
That analogy is inherently questionable, bu especially so when, as you do here, its terms are structured in order to predetermine the outcome you wish to see.
A structure closer to the reality here would be that the city mafia boss living on the other side of town (US) encourages a little guy (Ukraine) to pick a fight with his much bigger neighbour (Russia), who has been obstructing the mafia’s operations, and then uses [Russia’s] resistance as a pretext to accuse him of violence and to whip up a mob against him.
*Every* analogy is limited and not wholly applicable (it would have to be the thing itself rather than an analogy not to be) and also almost every analogy is chosen to point out the side to the argument the person using it wishes to convey. That is rather the point of making an analogy. It doesn’t predetermine the point though because anyone reading it is free to compare and contrast. That is also the point of an analogy. Yes it is a domestic analogy. The interesting thing is the point you have made and the link you have provided do nothing to counteract the central point the analogy makes. The academics try to sound smart but being academic doesn’t make them right. Indeed when it comes to standing up to someone making a fight, they are all too likely to have no idea. The domestic analogy becomes entirely applicable because it is base human emotional drives of those involved more than the pretence of sophisticated politics that actually drive the outcome. Something Trump inherently understood when he childishly, but practically got right to the point the time he told Kim Jong-Un “I have a red button too only mine is… Read more »
“*Every* analogy is limited and not wholly applicable (it would have to be the thing itself rather than an analogy not to be) and also almost every analogy is chosen to point out the side to the argument the person using it wishes to convey. “ Of course, but some analogies are better – more apt – than others. “The domestic analogy becomes entirely applicable because it is base human emotional drives of those involved more than the pretence of sophisticated politics that actually drive the outcome. Something Trump inherently understood when he childishly, but practically got right to the point the time he told Kim Jong-Un “I have a red button too only mine is bigger than yours and it works.”” The problem is that the domestic analogy is a naturally appealing one, but is inherently false in certain core particulars that make it inherently potentially misleading. In this case one of the core differences is central to Carl’s argument that you are trying to analogise here – namely that humans are unitary, unlike states. There is no meaningful equivalent in humans to the constituent people of a state, which in turn are central to the argument made by Carl.… Read more »
“In this case one of the core differences is central to Carl’s argument that you are trying to analogise here – namely that humans are unitary, unlike states. There is no meaningful equivalent in humans to the constituent people of a state” I would disagree with this point in relation to Putin because he is a dictator and is an individual, one man, who has determined this conflict should occur. Indeed, one way to put the point I am making is, that, Noah Carl raises various recent historical points (and continually talks as though the motives and intentions of men are entirely indisputably perspicuous from those points – and Putin didn’t want war but was forced into it by Nato). Of course there is some historical context and background and it is to a greater or lesser degree relevant, but IMO it is all *entirely* secondary to the primary base emotional drives. Is Putin really concerned to revive Russian historical splendour and pride over and above the desire for power and willy waving? Anyone who thinks he is driven by intellectual purity and sophisticated tsarist historical revaunchist concerns as distinct for a concern to further his own power and myth, is… Read more »
“I would disagree with this point in relation to Putin because he is a dictator and is an individual, one man, who has determined this conflict should occur.“ No, and on this rather fundamental point you are just flat wrong, like someone who believes the Earth is flat. Russia is not a dictatorship and Putin is not a dictator. He’s a powerful executive President, much like the US or French presidents but more personally established, who can certainly choose to take his country to war (as Bush did in Iraq) but whose decisions invariably take into account wider political issues and views and rely on constitutional approval, and cannot be implemented in isolation from that kind of political basic sanity check. There’s no way I can persuade you of your error because like the flat Earther you are just ignorant of the reality and determined to remain so, and will just insist that any source disagreeing with your belief is lying. “This is why a basic analogy at the level of individual human conflict is entirely appropriate and why he should be treated as a man-child bully.“ This is exactly the kind of childishness that the propagandist’s insistence on personalising… Read more »
I use the walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck definition of a dictator and on that score I am *definitely* right.
No doubt, but you do so based on uncritically believing sources that lie to you, because it’s in their interests to establish a false understanding of the situation..
You are certainly right about your basic mind.
what about the other Ukrainians? You know, from the Donbass, Crimea, etc?
What about the other Russians who don’t want to be Russians?
Always, you see only one side.
I wholeheartedly approve of this analogy.
I’ve largely ignored all the Ukraine/Russia stuff as I know there is a lot of hatred and corruption in the area and I don’t trust our MSM.
But hasn’t Russia now tried and tested its hardware and now has battle hardened troops? Where as we can only field less than 30k troops with no battle experience with no or little battle hardware testing.
It’ll be fine. Our rulers are making sure our militaries are politically correct.
Ukrainians are entitled to debate whether to conceed all that Russia demands but Ukraine has decided to defend itself. This article suggests citizens of a country are entitled to leave the fighting to others and themselves escape to safety in the west. From there to criticise and undemine their own country. I do not agree with that as a general principle.
From what we know Ukraininans in Ukraine strongly support theiur government, whatever criticisms might be made of the way it came in to being. If is hardly less democratioc than its northern neighbours.
you’ve hardly done any research before posting this. pretty much every major political party has been banned by Zelensky and if you voice any alternative opinion re the war or support any sort of compromise, your life is in real danger. Ukraine is as far from Democracy as a country can be.
Surely you mean Russia here.
They’re not even allowed to call it a war at all.
it is not a war as surrender was not an evacuation. if BBC says so, it doesn’t mean it’s true.
OMG. You actually think it’s a ‘special military operation’.
Both sides are as bad as each other. Neither is a shining, wonderful democracy with exemplary values. There again, nor is modern Britain.
Having accepted that, Russia is winning the war. The wunderwaffen will not change the tide. So, what do you want to do? Carry on with the killing for ever?
How many wars has Britain fought where we were losing at first, but went on to win? Look at Germany in WW1 in the first weeks.
Putin determined the day of the attack, the location, and he had a massive advantage in material. Of course he’s winning so far.
But in so many other ways he’s also losing. Above all, he has driven Ukraine forever towards Europe. He may be able to occupy some areas for awhile but it will also be just that – an occupation.
That’s Fingal’s world. Reality is probably a lot more like: Ukraine Beyond Day 100 – Breaking Resistance, Deep Operation, A New Country As for speculation about the likely future: “Disarming Ukraine Looking at this map I believe that the most advantageous end state for Russia would be the creation of a new independent country, call it Novorussiya, on the land east of the Dnieper and south along the coast that holds a majority ethnic Russian population and that, in 1922, had been attached to the Ukraine by Lenin. That state would be politically, culturally and militarily aligned with Russia. For economic reasons I later added a bit to that: Novorossiya roughly includes the red and yellow areas in the above map. It also includes the valuable Soviet developed iron ore mines and factories of Kryvyi Rih west of the Dnieper river. Iron ore from Kryvyi Rih, coal from Donbas, oil and gas from the eastern coast and the port of Mariupol together constitute the heavy industry that was the economic heart of Ukraine. Together they would constitute a viable and even well off country with 80+% of the GDP Ukraine previously had. Russia can now afford go slow with this project. Time is on its… Read more »
What’s the point of this? Pick a date, pick a boundary.
The whole of Eastern Europe has changed boundaries times beyond counting.
Let’s put it this way. Odds are the boundaries next year, or within a very few years, will look a lot like some of those on that map.
If they are, then the war will still be going on.
Doubtful.The present dead ender Kiev regime will probably be long one and replaced by sane moderates.
It will be just a matter of cleaning up the few fanatic terrorists Washingtion has (yet again!) ensured have access to huge quantities of black market military weaponry. But that’s a policing issue, not a war.
What is it Fungus?
‘Ukrainian’ – is there a homogenous Body Politic? Looking at a demographic there appear to be a number of different groups by ethnicity, language, locality.
It also appears they are not in agreement en bloc.
‘This article suggests citizens of a country are entitled to leave the fighting to others and themselves escape to safety in the west. ‘
And what would your opinion be if German citizens in 1940 onwards had left Germany, leaving the fighting and guarding the concentration camps to others, and themselves escaping abroad?
When a county is at war being invaded and threatened with destruction, it has a the right to declare marshal law and call up male citizens to defend the county.
If you want to campaign about human rights then, the suppression of the opposition and rounding up of state enemies would be more relevant lines of approach.
Ukrainian citizens groaning under the hated Russian yoke in Melitopol:
Please help me wipe pieces of my exploded head off the computer screen!!!!!!!!
and facing the arrival of the hated and feared Russian monsters in uniform in Svetlodarsk.
What the hell is going on here???????
Are there Ukrainians who hate and fear the Russians? Of course. The point is that the simplistic narrative presented by the BBC et al is an intentionally manipulative propaganda lie, no different from all the covid fear propaganda or the nonsense about “saint” George Floyd or about supposed deaths from global warming.
That’s why we in the US sphere need places like DS, where the manipulative writ of the Official Truth does not run.
Jacob Dreizin is brilliant. Guess you also follow his You Tube channel.
The Duran, Military Summary and The New Atlas You Tube channels are also my other go to sources of information. Not sure if you have come across those.
The BBC is just fake news. Very sad. My father grew up in WW2 and always saw them as presenting the facts. That may have been true then (by and large) but they have totally lost it in the past couple of decades. With respect to Ukraine, they are like the TASS of the Cold War.
Fascinating that our society projects onto Russia much of what we are becoming!
“The Duran, Military Summary and The New Atlas You Tube channels are also my other go to sources of information. Not sure if you have come across those.“
Yes. I’ve also always liked antiwar.com as a news aggregating site. On the Ukraine SMO in particular, Defense Politics Asia is good for comparing with Military Summary’s analysis.
For the Russian pov, Southfront and (in Russian only but easy to machine translate via your browser), https://voenhronika.ru/.
Also for interesting discussion, Larry Johnson’s blog and on Russia, this one:
https://awfulavalanche.wordpress.com/
And Gilbert Docturow’s blog:
https://gilbertdoctorow.com/
“Fascinating that our society projects onto Russia much of what we are becoming!“
It is interesting. There are probably fundamentals of human nature at play there…
I tend to view it as Cold War in reverse – we are now the nations in the grip of an uncompromising, aggressively universalist ideology of extremists who will tolerate no dissent and no exceptions to the rule of their beliefs.
Also, for the indy leftist, anti-imperialist pov, MoonOfAlabama and The Saker, though the latter has a tendency to be a little over the top.
consortium news publishes some good pieces on Ukraine. If you’re already at the level when you suspect BBC might not be totally honest and impartial, this article can be a good start.
https://consortiumnews.com/2022/06/02/us-state-affiliated-newsguard-targets-consortium-news/
Yes, also TheGrayzone:
https://thegrayzone.com/
I’m not always fully on board with the politics and wider viewpoints of these sites, but they do publish genuinely independent coverage.
The basic truth is that the CIA want to keep the cold war going.
Just an empty statement. Putin shows more sign of wanting to bring back the old order.
There is a more fundamental question: if you have a weapons industry can you have a completely amoral market driven approach to that industry. It strikes me that you can’t really shout your mouth off about this or that human rights abuse when you will sell your technology to anyone. Why do we just allow it that we arm the worst of people. You can’t just say that we manufacture and they buy. If you say that then you are asserting the neutrality of financial systems which contradicts any case for economic sanctions.
I agree. Many US Senators are funded by the military industrial complex. Hawkish Neo Con think tanks such as the ISW are also seemingly funded that way too. Another long war with an indeterminate outcome is almost ideal for defence contractors. The Neo Con ideology and economic self interest then go together. Very similar to how the interests of the Pharma industrial complex coalesced with “safety ism” ideology with respect to Covid.
Our situation is one in which we have no idea how to cleanse our system of these influences. They have mastered the mechanisms and captured things from top to bottom. And shortly we will see the fruits of their labour. Their pathology is like that of an addict. They know that it is all going down but they will do anything for that last buzz.
I agree!
20 members of Congress personally invest in top weapons contractors that’ll profit from the just-passed $40 billion Ukraine aid packageAt least 20 federal lawmakers or their spouses hold stock in Raytheon Technologies and Lockheed Martin, which manufacture the weapons Western allies are sending to Ukraine to fight Russian invaders, according to an Insider analysis of federal financial records.
It’s the usual revolving doors…it doesn’t even surprise anyone anymore….
US Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin, used to work for Raytheon…..plus ca change!!..
Unless one believes the western propaganda that Putin is the new Hitler who will send his tanks through to the Channel given half a chance then it is hard to see how any British interest is served by arming Ukraine. But he lacks an army of the right size and set up to do anything of the kind. His logistics (for example) are rail based and the Russian gauge is different from most of Europe’s. Such ideas are fanciful but designed to scare the masses and invoke the British interpretation of Munich in 1938 if anyone stands against the hawks. We do not really know what Ukrainians think either. There has been a civil war since 2014 and western hands (plus probably Russia’s) have been all over that fomenting it and intensifying it. No doubt some Ukrainians hate Russia (there is complex history) but many others see them as liberators. The morality is deeply ambiguous as to who is right and ought not to be any of our business really. But western leaders clearly have an agenda to fight Russia, and the Biden administration seems to have a particular hatred of Russia and of Putin. Silly and flighty Johnson has… Read more »
It will be interesting to hear the outcome of the talks between the African Union and Putin this afternoon. It is rumoured that Putin will facilitate a similar system of payment using twinned dollar and rouble accounts to enable the African nations to buy grain and fuel, thereby sidestepping the SWIFTrestrictions.
What’s needed is for Putin to agree to stop attacking Odessa so the sea route can open up. There’s no way more than about a fifth of the grain is going to come out by land.
Still desperately pushing the big lie, eh Fingal?. The Russians have always (since March at any rate) said that merchant ships are free to enter and leave, it’s the Ukrainians who have blockaded them in.
Russia, Ukraine trade barbs over obstruction of wheat shipments to Egypt
“However, Russia denied the Ukrainian accusations. The Russian Embassy in Cairo said in an April 5 statement that the Ukrainian army is laying mines in the sea of the ports of Ochakov, Chernomorsk, Odessa and Yuzhny, with the aim of halting shipping traffic from and to ports.
The Russian Embassy noted that its naval vessels are ensuring the commercial ships’ freedom of movement through a safe humanitarian corridor that has been operating daily since March 25, but it accused Ukrainian authorities of preventing ships from leaving the ports.”
No, The Ukraine War Has Not Stoked A Global Food Crisis.
Ukraine has mined the approaches to Odessa because Russia has been invading from the sea.
As Putin is still attacking Odessa, and offers no guarantees to stop, then Ukraine can’t drop its defences.
It’s entirely in Ukraine’s interests to export the grain. It’s in Putin’s interests to block it (so long as you don’t mind starving a few million Africans, which he does not.)
Putin has zero domestic pressure to take responsibility for the side effects of his invasion on the world food supply.
There’s no world in which Russia just sails its ships into port in Odessa – weren’t you just boasting about supposed Ukrainian missile strikes on Russian ships tens of miles away?
If they hadn’t panicked the Ukrainians could easily have kept a safe passage out of the port. That’s standard practice.
The reality, of course, is that the propaganda use of the “Russian grain blockade” is far more valuable to the Ukrainians than the money for the grain, given they depend completely on sugar daddy Washington anyway.
Well Mark, ships can sail back again closer to the coast, if they need to support a land attack.
Until Putin guarantees the safety of Odessa, it can’t operate as a trade port.
“Well Mark, ships can sail back again closer to the coast, if they need to support a land attack.”
That doesn’t appear to have any meaning relevant to reality. You see to think Russian warships could sail along a narrow designated mine-free path right up to the port, waving at the Ukrainian anti-ship missiles and artillery batteries pre-registered to the path, and then along the coast, with impunity.
To write it is to understand how ridiculous it is.
“Until Putin guarantees the safety of Odessa, it can’t operate as a trade port.”
The Russian aren’t going to “guarantee the safety of” anywhere, let alone in a naturally Russian area like Odessa, where pro-Russian protesters were mass murdered in order to suppress resistance to the Kiev regime in 2014/15..
Mark, no merchant navy in the world is going to sail into a port under active threat of attack, whether or not there is a mine free channel.
And yes, if that channel is wide enough for merchant ships, of course it’s wide enough for military.
“Mark, no merchant navy in the world is going to sail into a port under active threat of attack, whether or not there is a mine free channel.”
It’s called blockade running. See, it even has a name.
But in reality, the Russians have said from the start that they’ll cooperate with merchant ships. The whole point of agreeing time windows is to enable protection of merchants in transit.
The halting of merchant shipping is 100% down to the Kiev regime, and its US backers who can control the insurance issues.
“And yes, if that channel is wide enough for merchant ships, of course it’s wide enough for military.”
Not sure what the point of that drivel was. It has nothing to do with anything I wrote.
This is nonsense, insurance would be unobtainable.
It’s not a matter of couple of ships rushing in by night, it’s a huge operation.
You make the most unreal comments about Ukraine. None of this is remotely possible.
Insurance is wholly under the US sphere’s control. If they want to subsidise it, impose it, or negate it for particular situations, they can do any of those things.
Funny how they can use these things as weapons against Russia and you wouldn’t say a peep, but your kind still insists blindly that “oh they couldn’t possibly bend the rules in that way!”.
Wake up, FFS!
“It’s not a matter of couple of ships rushing in by night, it’s a huge operation.”
That’s why the Russians have been “ensuring the commercial ships’ freedom of movement through a safe humanitarian corridor that has been operating daily since March 25″. It’s not remotely difficult to do, it’s just that the Ukrainian side haven’t wanted to do it, and people like you wring your hands and pretend it’s so awful, while point blank refusing to accept any proposed solution that doesn’t involve you getting your way.
In many ways you are a perfect exemplor of US sphere regime thinking. Entitled, profoundly dishonest, and manipulative
Just like Putin claims everyone he’s at war with spend their time bombing themselves, now you’re claiming Ukraine is blockading itself.
Why?
Why?
Because you insist on twisting words in order to make them seem absurd and then asking, wide eyed: “why are you saying something that sounds absurd?”
But you knew that.
it’s a serious question – why would Ukraine blockade itself?
Of course it isn’t a serious question from you, because I’ve already explained the situation. It’s you that tried to make it sound silly as “blockading themselves”. As I pointed out, the Ukrainians mined their own ports – nobody disputes that, and the propaganda value of the “Russia food blockade” lie is evidently greater than any value in the exports.
But you knew that.
So your idea is that the Ukrainians are sabotaging their own major industry, in order to make Russia look a little bit worse than it already does and…well, that’s it.
Wow.
Do you disagree that Ukraine mined its own ports?
Of course they did – why would Russia prevent their own attack?
Did any of the Allied amphibious operations in 43 or 44 involve sailing into ports?
What’s that got to do with it? Russia has already used its navy to assist attacks along the coast.
It means that mining their ports wasn’t about preventing Russian amphibious operations.
The Dieppe raid determined later operations.
How do you work that out?
How much do you think a few shiploads of grain are worth as a percentage of the ongoing US subsidy? Just wondering what kind of sense of perspective you have on this.
You do understand that they are also shipping grain out via other routes?
They are shipping what they can by land, but the estimate is 20% by this method at best.
If this goes on much longer it will wreck next year’s crop as well
What estimates. Show us Fingers.
But you won’t because you just make shit up.
Mark, do not feed the trolls.
Insurance has a clause for the event of war dummy. It’s null and void.
Do you imagine the convoys across the Atlantic in WW2 were insured?
What planet are you really from Fingers?
Terrific interpretation . 👍
nicely put
“he lacks an army of the right size and set up to do anything of the kind. “
Don’t know if you saw this previously, but it seems very apt to your point here:
NATO admits Russia focused on Defence
A little anecdote about life in Kiev before the SMO.
My son was learning Russian on line and one of the on-line Russian coaches was a woman from Kiev whose day job was hairdressing. They met up when he visited Kiev a few years back and she explained that she had to start doing on-line tutoring becuase hairdressing didn’t pay. It wasn’t so much that it was poorly paid but her profit margin was way down because of the protection money she had to pay the local mafia in order to keep her salon open.
She confirmed that this was a fact of life for all small businesses in Ukraine. And you wonder why so many were happy to have a legitimate excuse to leave.