Russia’s Muted Response to Finland’s Interest in Joining NATO Suggests its Invasion of Ukraine Was Nothing to do With NATO Expansion

After some weeks of national polling, discussion and debate, and following Wednesday’s signing of bilateral security agreements with the U.K., it now looks all-but-certain that Finland and Sweden will apply to join NATO – perhaps as early as next week – and that if they do, they will be welcomed with open arms, swelling the ranks of the alliance to 32 members.

But Finland sits directly on Russia’s western border.

Indeed, amongst European nations, Finland has the dubious distinction of possessing the second-longest land border with Russia – second only to Ukraine’s. So why hasn’t this expected eastward expansion of NATO been greeted with the same hand-wringing from those in the West, and the same threats from Russia that we’ve seen in past years with respect to Ukraine’s “provocative” ambition to join NATO?

The reason is that NATO’s eastward expansion was never viewed by Russia as an existential threat – at least not militarily. In fact, the factitious and pretextual nature of Russia’s claimed fears over Ukraine’s closer ties to NATO couldn’t be clearer: on April 8th, Dmitry Peskov repeated Russia’s long-held position that if Finland and Sweden were to join NATO, this would be a threat but not an existential threat. His remarks were repeated by RT in a clear confirmation of the official line:

Moscow opposes the expansion of NATO, but the inclusion of Finland and Sweden in the bloc won’t become an existential threat to it, Kremlin Press Secretary Dmitry Peskov told Sky News on Friday.

This is despite the fact that Finland has a large, modern and well-equipped military (soon to include F-35A “stealth” jets), is geographically very close to Russia’s second city, St. Petersburg, and has the will to defend itself – as well as something of a track record against Russia. The Finnish attitude – reminiscent of Jim Mattis – was exemplified just yesterday by Pekka Toveri, Finland’s former military intelligence chief, who said:

We just want to be left in peace – but if you f—— come over the border, you will pay the price.

It would be difficult to believe – prior to the full-scale invasion of Ukraine on February 24th, at least – that Russia viewed the Finnish armed forces as anything less than the most potent military force on its western border. So why is Finnish NATO membership not the threat that Ukraine’s accession to the alliance would supposedly be?

The reasons are (in no particular order) historical, demographic, cultural, financial and political. But when talking of Ukraine in this context, it should be noted that much of these observations would apply equally to Georgia, whose developing ties with NATO are of similar concern to Russia.

Historically, Ukraine (as well as Georgia and the Baltic states) was of course governed from Moscow as part of the USSR, the collapse of which Putin rues:

Above all, we should acknowledge that the collapse of the Soviet Union was a major geopolitical disaster of the century. As for the Russian nation, it became a genuine drama. Tens of millions of our co-citizens and co-patriots found themselves outside Russian territory. Moreover, the epidemic of disintegration infected Russia itself.

It’s clear from Putin’s words and actions, first in Georgia in 2008, and later in Ukraine in 2014, that he follows an irredentist policy which is tied to, and in his mind justified by, the concept of ‘ethnic Russian’ identity. The tactics employed – of claiming ‘ethnic Russians’ are under threat or attack by the governments of those nations in which they find themselves – mirror precisely the tactics employed by Nazi Germany in respect of the Sudetenland, Gdansk, and so on. As with Nazi Germany, these claims have been reinforced by a stated desire to protect shared culture and traditions, and in this case the sense that Russian culture is under direct assault from Western liberal values. But what really animates this line of thinking is the demographic crisis in Russia.

Much like the rest of Europe, Russia has been facing declining birth rates amongst its core ethnic population, and a relative increase in its other ethnic minority populations, notably Muslims. It has sought to compensate for this by importing ‘ethnic Russians’ from other former USSR states. And since the invasion, forced transportation of Ukrainians to Russia has been in the news, with some as-yet-unsubstantiated claims putting the figure in the hundreds of thousands or even above a million.

The other key reasons for Russia’s invasion of Ukraine are financial and political. A successful invasion of Ukraine would have left Putin in a much stronger – practically unassailable – political position, giving him control of a client state and effectively expanding Russia’s territory and overall economic (and military) power – a war of conquest. But there are undoubtedly more personal financial motivations, having to do with the workings of the Russian state and its thoroughly kleptocratic and corrupt nature. Control of the Ukrainian economy might enable Putin to buy an even bigger palace and another superyacht, but it would also be a chance to reward his cronies and further cement his position as dictator-for-life.

With this in mind, Ukraine has the twin advantages for Russia of being both rife with corruption (as mocked in Servant of the People) and possessing important industries and vast natural gas reserves (including the large Yuzivska gas field, discovered in 2010) – as well as being a major global player in agriculture. In the Yanukovych era, the pro-Russian faction was busily co-opting natural resources, aping Putin’s Russia, and was well on the way to turning the country into an entrenched kleptocracy. Had Yanukovych not lost power and ignominiously fled Ukraine in 2014, the ‘need’ for Russia to invade would have been absent: control of Ukraine’s economy would have been enough for the short term, and in due course Russia’s political domination would have turned it into another Belarus.

These motives for the Russian invasion of Ukraine could never remotely translate to Finland, which was never part of the USSR and whose ‘ethnic Russian’ population is tiny. In addition, Finland’s economy would have provided Russia with no easy opportunities for looting and plunder, besides which its polity is already infused with those ‘Western’ values that Putin so despises, making it much more difficult to corrupt. In sum, Russia can’t keep Finland in its orbit, because Finland was never in it. Thus, Finland joining NATO poses no ‘existential threat’ to Russia, so it has done the diplomatic equivalent of shrugging its shoulders, sending out its spokesman with some tired and weak threats.

Of course there is a military dimension to this, in that a NATO presence in Ukraine would have permanently prevented Russia from invading, but it was Ukraine’s rejection of Russian domination, its increasingly closer ties with Western liberal democracies, its keenness to adopt Western values and to be part of ‘the West’ that offended Russia and threatened its goal of imposing a corrupt, anti-democratic and pro-Russian ethno-nationalist regime on the country. But the threat was not primarily a military one, it was rather a matter of values – such as they are, in Russia’s tortured soul.

The ‘NATO provocation’ explanation of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine was always weak. Besides any other considerations, one can simply look at the current map of NATO member states: Latvia and Estonia, both member states, also border Russia. And NATO has no intention of attacking Russia – that would be mad, and not since Bertrand Russell has anyone seriously proposed a first strike. But to be fair, proponents of this hypothesis, such as John Mearsheimer, are aware that it doesn’t make much sense in the West, so they fall back upon a reduced hypothesis, saying it’s “irrelevant” whether it seems rational to us, so long as Russia believes that NATO’s expansion towards its borders is an existential threat.

That might be a valid theoretical consideration, but it’s lazy and serves only to disguise Russia’s true motivations, which are not militarily defensive, but defensive on an ethno-nationalistic level: Russia fears its own decline, and sees the more ‘modern’ Western values as corrosive – a view shared, incidentally, by many conservatives in the West. This is why Russia objected just as much to EU influence in Ukraine, despite the EU having neither an army per se, nor a collective defence treaty. In fact, a cynic might say that this is as much a war about gay rights as anything else; but that would have about as much merit as the ‘NATO expansionism’ argument. The truth is that this war concerns the sovereignty and self-determination of a nation state: a core and immutable Western value, older than the Treaty of Westphalia, that flows from the Christian belief in individual sovereignty. Finding reasons to agree with Putin’s excuses, while glossing over the true causes of his war, is like volunteering to polish the gold toilet-paper holder on his yacht.

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Aleajactaest
3 years ago

existential means immediate nuclear engagement. Russia is very clear about that.

Russia was also very clear about the SMO and has not budged nor strayed from those tasks

Putin doesn’t bluff.

He has warned Finland to expect a measured response if they join NATO. These will be conventional (Finland imports 60% of their NG from Russia, Russia will switch that off)

As one wag put it on the Saker blog, ” time for the Finnish to get the Grandfather’s axe out of the shed. It’s going to be a long cold winter”

Backlash
Backlash
3 years ago
Reply to  Aleajactaest

and Russia and its sick regime loses another customer.

rockoman
rockoman
3 years ago
Reply to  Backlash

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-05-12/russia-oil-revenue-up-50-this-year-despite-boycott-iea-says
Russia Oil Revenue Up 50% This Year Despite Boycott, IEA Says

Rouble up 25% against the Euro compared to pre-invasion.

https://www.xe.com/currencyconverter/convert/?Amount=1&From=EUR&To=RUB

Rouble up 17% against the Dollar compared to pre-invasion.

The sanctions are ‘safe and effective’

Aleajactaest
3 years ago
Reply to  rockoman

and Germany and Austria have cried Uncle.

It’s about time our Fat Controller gets his Ukrainian comeuppance.

David Beaton
David Beaton
3 years ago
Reply to  Aleajactaest

Along with his ‘cakegate’ comeuppance, his vax scam comeuppance, his mask farce comeuppance, his Lockdown disaster comeuppance ,his fake Brexit comeuppance, his NI protocol sell-out comeuppance , his Carbon Zero insanity comeuppance etc. etc .

I expect a few ‘ladies’ might seek his ‘comeuppance’ for personal resons as well.

TheyLiveAndWeLockdown
3 years ago
Reply to  rockoman

If you like your Dollar you can keep your dollar!

/Obama’s QE Dollarcare.

Rowan
Rowan
3 years ago
Reply to  Backlash

While the those very clever Finns led by a WEF groupie will freeze to death. Now that’s a proper backlash.

twinkytwonk
3 years ago
Reply to  Backlash

Anther one who doesn’t understand that modern luxuries are reliant on oil

David Beaton
David Beaton
3 years ago
Reply to  twinkytwonk

Like washing up liquid and plastic for example?

RedhotScot
3 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

The computer he’s vomiting his bilge from.

Rogerborg
3 years ago
Reply to  Backlash

Indeed, but there’s no shortage of demand from points Eastwards. Europe needs Russia a lot more than Russia needs Europe.

JXB
JXB
3 years ago
Reply to  Backlash

As any business manager will tell you, some customers are more trouble than they are worth.

And meanwhile Russia has increased oil deliveries to India… that tiny Country not in NATO or US lapdog.

RedhotScot
3 years ago
Reply to  Backlash

Sick regime. LOL Biden and Boris. 🤣 America and the UK overtly invoking censorship on their citizens. Shovelling money and weapons into the corruption capital of the world, which isn’t even a NATO member. Biden ignoring the baby formula shortage in the US, and delivering stocks of the stuff to illegal immigrants. Biden stealing an election, now beyond doubt following the release of 2000Mules. Both main political parties known to have been partying whilst they imposed lockdowns on the country. Meanwhile, China, India and Latin America, amongst many other nations refuse to condemn Putin for legally invoking UN Article 51 to resist the ethnic cleansing of Russians from Donbass. In the aftermath of the Rwandan genocide, the United Nations (UN) and countries including the United States, Great Britain and Belgium were condemned for their lack of action in response to the mass killings. They failed to support the force and mandate of the United Nations Assistance Misson [sic] for Rwanda (UNAMIR) peacekeepers, while the government of France were accused of alleged support of the “Hutu Power” regime that culminated in genocide. (The Ethnic Cleansing Of Rwanda Genocide) Perhaps Russia doesn’t want to be tarred with the brush of western neglect… Read more »

David Beaton
David Beaton
3 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

Great post!

Alter Ego
Alter Ego
3 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

Agreed.

Why didn’t Donbass lives matter?

With honourable exceptions here and there, only the Russians seemed to care about what was happening to people in the Donbass for eight terrible years; as deliberate Ukrainian government policy, aided and abetted by the US and executed by people proud of their identification with Nazis.
.

mojo
mojo
3 years ago
Reply to  Alter Ego

The USA do not care about lives. Neither do the UK. In Syria and Iraq they used scorched earth tactics where millions of citizens were wiped out. This was never how the British did war before joining the Globalist controlled EU. The UK never, ever invaded a country unless they asked for help or invaded us first. Everything changed when the Americans became a global power.

Fingal
Fingal
3 years ago
Reply to  Alter Ego

Casualties have continued on both sides. Russia’s statistics are never, never accurate.

But for Putin, there never would have been breakaway republics and there never would have been a war.

mojo
mojo
3 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

Well said. Best post

mojo
mojo
3 years ago
Reply to  Backlash

More and more EU countries are now signing up to Gazprom and paying in Rubles. The Ruble is now the best performing world currency. It doesn’t matter how patriotic I am, I have to acknowledge the UK never left the Brussels cartel and USA controls the West. Because of a few people in Washington wanting to hide their nefarious investments and money laundering in Ukraine, Europe will now see a generation, maybe two, of poverty and falling living standards. Our leaders are part of a globalist/USA agenda to destroy us in order to control the world. That agenda is failing because the majority of the world is not complying.

Fingal
Fingal
3 years ago
Reply to  mojo

The dollar is also rising.

The rouble is not fully convertible right now for locals, so its value is not entirely what it seems.

Currency exchange rates are only part of the economic story. Russian inflation is touching 20% and a 10% fall in GDP is forecast.

The economy won’t stop Putin in the short term, but longer term he has deprived Russia of its biggest customer for by far its biggest product.

Proveritate
3 years ago
Reply to  Aleajactaest

Rubbish.

Oh yes, 60% sounds like a big number, doesn’t it? Except that it’s not even 3% of Finland’s energy budget.

They have time to replace that little bit of gas before it cools down again in September.

The Finns are anything but stupid, and will have factored all this in and made provision for the worst.

They know what a Russian invasion is like, the country that stole 10% of its land in the 1940s.

What do you think Finland did to keep warm before they had Russian gas? And now they have lots of nuclear power.

Alter Ego
Alter Ego
3 years ago
Reply to  Proveritate

Finland was offered Russian land in exchange for some security with regard to the approaches to Leningrad, its second-largest city.

It decided instead to side with Nazi Germany, and took part in the invasion and attacks which resulted in the loss of hundreds of thousands of lives in that city alone.

Finland might have decided to forget. The Russians are anything but stupid and they have not.

I pray, and I mean this sincerely, that Helsinki and no other city on the face of this earth ever suffers the fate of the people of Leningrad.

mojo
mojo
3 years ago
Reply to  Proveritate

The Fins have a Global Leader trained by WEF. That changes everything. A neutral country now puts itself under the control of a nuclear power who has no regard for human life. What a very calculated and dangerous decision for a Government to make.

Emerald Fox
3 years ago
Reply to  Aleajactaest

Stocked up for 3 winters – we have two of these ‘cages’ (about 6 cubic metres of birch logs) and a boathouse filled with another 7 cubic metres. Takes a year for logs like this to dry out.

Emerald Fox
3 years ago
Reply to  Emerald Fox

Wood cage.

woodcage6.jpg
Beowulf
Beowulf
3 years ago
Reply to  Emerald Fox

Does the Finnish Air Force still use the swastika insignia?

Fingal
Fingal
3 years ago
Reply to  Beowulf

Is Russia’s Nazi Wagner Group still fighting in half a dozen countries?

Beowulf
Beowulf
3 years ago
Reply to  Fingal

Why are you asking me? I’m not Russian, I don’t live in Russia, but I do love Wagner, especially the Ring Cycle, so maybe that’s it, who knows?

Fingal
Fingal
3 years ago
Reply to  Beowulf

You ask lots of pointless whataboutist questions, so I thought I’d join in.

It’s quite fun.

David Beaton
David Beaton
3 years ago
Reply to  Beowulf

As they were flying Gloucester Gladiators gifted by the UK in 1940, perhaps it was just a “good luck” talisman?

And they were pale blue!

Emerald Fox
3 years ago
Reply to  Beowulf

I don’t know. You could write and ask them?

Doom Slayer
3 years ago

So the US factor is not mentioned once. Maybe a bit of investigation into US close ties to and influence in Ukraine Ian. Then compare to Finland.

Aleajactaest
3 years ago
Reply to  Doom Slayer

see my reply to the 77th shill below

David Beaton
David Beaton
3 years ago
Reply to  Doom Slayer

Yet another Eisen/Nuland operation then?

There is just too much paper mnehy in the world!

RedhotScot
3 years ago
Reply to  Doom Slayer

The west stood by and watched the Rwanda genocide.

Thankfully, Putin isn’t spineless enough to ignore the full scale invasion and subsequent genocide of Donbass, planned for immediately prior to his intervention.

In excess of 5,000 artillery strikes by Ukraine on the region in the seven days prior to Putin chasing them off.

Something completely ignored by the western media.

David Beaton
David Beaton
3 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

All truth is ignored by Western media. The problem is that the sleepwalking masses still actually believe what the Media (especially the BBC) tell them . They have failed to understand the fundamental transformation of Western media into a single, monotone, voice propaganda-machine just peddling lies and now actively suppressing censoring individuals and forcing the Globalist tyranny forward, crushing truth to advance the agenda of the most evil and corrupt dictatorship the world has ever seen!

Time was when crass ignorance in others was just rather sad and annoying – eliciting a shake of the head and a shrug…but now it is becoming life-threatening for all of us and psychopathic war mongers taking us all to the edge of social and economic breakdown and even nuclear war.

Apart from the mentally deranged now running the west, ‘Stupidity’ is now our biggest threat and enemy.

The first stage of ‘enlightenment’ is so very easy – people should stop believing, watching or reading MSM news coverage whatever.
Lies are now the ‘New World Order” truth!

They should try Mark Steyn before he is censored, cancelled and “gaslighted.” Can’t be long now!

ImpObs
3 years ago

The reason is that NATO’s eastward expansion was never viewed by Russia as an existential threat – at least not militarily.

But that’s just like, your opinion man…

You have to avoid the 4 min flight time for nukes to Moscow issue to make comparrisons with Ukraine.

This is despite the fact that Finland has a large, modern and well-equipped military

Despite the fact Finland has no nukes… unitl they join NATO!

Moscow has said it will be forced to strengthen its defences in the

Baltic if Finland and Sweden join Nato, including by deploying nuclear

weapons https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/14/russia-says-it-will-reinforce-borders-if-sweden-and-finland-join-nato

.

We just want to be left in peace

Funny, that’s what the civillians in the Donbass have been saying since Russian forces helped the LPR/DPR forces to liberate them and they crawled out of the cellars after 8 years of arty barrages

Putin bad Blah blah blah…That might be a valid theoretical consideration, but it’s lazy

As lazy as avoiding the US involvement, and the nuclear flight time elephant in the room to make your opinion appear valid?

Nope, sophistry doesn’t work on us Ian, must try harder.

For a fist full of roubles
Reply to  ImpObs

They haven’t joined NATO yet. Apparently all Nordic countries are idealogically opposed to nuclear weapons, and as part of joining NATO they would have to agree to having nuclear weapons on their soil. I am surprised that Norway has agreed already.

David Beaton
David Beaton
3 years ago

The ‘useless eater’ plebs don’y have to ‘agree’ to anything any longer – the CIA just fix the elections to make sure their man/woman ‘wins’!

If it can happen in the US it can happen everywhere.

“We are living in a post-democratic age” ( P. Mandelson)

RedhotScot
3 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

Just happened in Tower Hamlets.

David Beaton
David Beaton
3 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

No surprise.

JXB
JXB
3 years ago

Or it’s all posturing to put the pressure on Putin so he says sorry and runs away.

Noah Carl
3 years ago

In 2008 when he was working at the U.S. embassy in Moscow, William Burns wrote the following memo to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice:

“Ukrainian entry into NATO is the brightest of all redlines for the Russian elite (not just Putin). In more than two and a half years of conversations with key Russian players, from knuckle-draggers in the dark recesses of the Kremlin to Putin’s sharpest liberal critics, I have yet to find anyone who views Ukraine in NATO as anything other than a direct challenge to Russian interests.”

Does Ian regard Burns, who is now CIA director, as a “Putin apologist”?

Aleajactaest
3 years ago
Reply to  Ian Rons

and security isn’t “an interest” eh Ian?

Alter Ego
Alter Ego
3 years ago
Reply to  Aleajactaest

Spot on – we’re looking at a very obvious case of sophistry.

Noah Carl
3 years ago
Reply to  Ian Rons

Interests include security interests. And regardless of whether one sees those interests as “legitimate”, NATO expansion clearly does matter (see my reply here). In his prize-winning article in the journal International Security, the political scientist Joshua Shifrinson notes that:

“during the diplomacy surrounding German reunification in 1990, the United States repeatedly offered the Soviet Union informal assurances against NATO’s future expansion into Eastern Europe. In addition to explicit discussion of a NATO non-expansion pledge in February 1990, assurances against NATO enlargement were epitomized and encapsulated in later offers to give East Germany special military status in NATO, to construct and integrate the Soviet Union into new European security institutions, and to generally recognize Soviet interests in Eastern Europe.”

He further notes that:

“There are numerous reasons to condemn Russian behavior in Georgia and Ukraine, as well as against states in Eastern Europe, but Russia’s leaders may be telling the truth when they claim that Russian actions are driven by mistrust.”

TripleJabbed
TripleJabbed
3 years ago
Reply to  Ian Rons

Surely in recognising the Donetsk Republic, Russia also broke the Budapest Treaty that guarantees Ukrainian territorial integrity?

Rogerborg
3 years ago
Reply to  TripleJabbed

The “Budapest Treaty” covers the international recognition of the deposit of microorganisms for the purposes of patent procedure.

You may be thinking about some memorandums of understanding that were penned in Budapest. If so, you either haven’t read them, or didn’t understand them, or are lying about what they say.

Which is it?

RedhotScot
3 years ago
Reply to  TripleJabbed

Section 2. The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defense or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations. (my emphasis) UN Article explicitly empowers Russia with the authority to intervene in Donbas. Under Article 51, there can be no doubt as to the legitimacy of Russia’s contention that the Russian-speaking population of the Donbass had been subjected to a brutal eight-year-long bombardment that had killed thousands of people.… Moreover, Russia claims to have documentary proof that the Ukrainian Army was preparing for a massive military incursion into the Donbass which was pre-empted by the Russian-led “special military operation.” [OSCE figures show an increase of government shelling of the area in the days before Russia moved in.] (Mike Whitney, The Unz Review)It is hard to conceive of a more pressing case for the need to act in defense of the nation. While the UN Charter prohibits unilateral acts of war, it also… Read more »

TripleJabbed
TripleJabbed
3 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

What a load of old hooey. It explicitly doesn’t empower Russia to do anything, these arguments are of the same pathetic quality as Tony Blair justifying the invasion of Iraq to find the WMDs.

David Beaton
David Beaton
3 years ago
Reply to  TripleJabbed

No.It is trumped by the right of self-determination of people and basic Human Rights .

Donbas Russian speakers were not very happy to live under a Government than banned their language, shelled their homes and schools and generally tried to kill them. It actually succeded in killing 14,000 in 8 years.

RedhotScot
3 years ago
Reply to  Ian Rons

Idealogical claptrap. Geopolitics operates on trust. There’s not a treaty in the world that can’t be violated, so the word of a political leader is probably worth more that mountains of paper. Why did this ‘invasion’ (in reality a humanitarian intervention under UN Article 51 to prevent genocide in Donbass following seven days of 5,000 artillery strikes by Ukrainian forces on the region) not take place under Trump? principally it seems, because Trump was more critical of NATO than anyone else and he and Putin trusted each other. There’s not a war begun without breaking treaties or agreement of one sort or another. UN Article 1441 was violated by America and Britain when they invaded Iraq. The Minsk agreements were a series of international agreements which sought to end the war in the Donbas region of Ukraine. (Wikipedia) This was drawn up in 2014 and the assault on Donbas continued for eight years, so it wasn’t Putin who violated the protocol, it was Ukraine. Why should Putin respect an agreement which isn’t respected by his counterparts. Your article is typical Putin Derangement Syndrome propaganda. Utterly reprehensible that anyone could simply ignore yet another attempt at genocide western media has watched and… Read more »

Fingal
Fingal
3 years ago
Reply to  Ian Rons

The crucial meeting in 1990 was not Gorbachev-Baker in Feb (which everyone quotes) but 6 months later when the deal was actually agreed.

The Russians summarised the Kohl-Gorbachev meeting thus: ‘…(Gorbachev) confirms his agreement to unified Germany’s entry into NATO. Kohl is decisive and assertive. He leads a clean but tough game’.

Gorbachev agreed to NATO expansion because the SU was broke and they sweetened the pill.

Fingal
Fingal
3 years ago
Reply to  Noah Carl

The real focus of the 1990 talks was about whether a united Germany could remain in NATO. Absorbing East Germany meant expanding NATO by default.

Most people on this site only ever quote from the first meeting, in Feb. But no deal was struck in Feb. When the deal was struck 6 months later, Gorbachev did indeed concede to NATO expansion. He did so because they sweetened the pill financially, and the SU was broke.

JXB
JXB
3 years ago
Reply to  Ian Rons

Isn’t a Nation’s Security of interest to it?

David Beaton
David Beaton
3 years ago
Reply to  Ian Rons

Not so – false distinction.

Security is perhaps the principal interest of any State. Without “security” there is no State.

Sontol
Sontol
3 years ago
Reply to  Noah Carl

A) Ukraine has not entered into NATO

B) Simply stating that you are not going to allow liberal-democratic countries to enter into defensive alliances (mainly because they are fearful of your own fascist-expansionist agenda) is the exact opposite of an excuse to actually attack them.

Noah Carl
3 years ago
Reply to  Sontol

To quote myself:

Petro Poroshenko, the man who replaced Yanukovych, announced that “we’ve decided to return to the course of NATO integration”. NATO troops began military exercises in Ukraine later that year. Then in 2019, the Constitution was amended to include joining NATO as a strategic goal. By June of 2020, Ukraine was recognised by NATO as an “Enhanced Opportunities Partner”. And in November of 2021, the US and Ukraine signed a “Charter on Strategic Partnership”, which declared that the US “supports Ukraine’s right to decide its own future foreign policy course free from outside interference, including with respect to Ukraine’s aspirations to join NATO”.”

Sontol
Sontol
3 years ago
Reply to  Noah Carl

All of that is a by-the-by to my main point, which I will repeat:

Simply stating that you are not going to allow other countries to enter into defensive alliances (mainly because they are fearful of your own fascist-expansionist agenda) is the exact opposite of an excuse to actually attack them.

David Beaton
David Beaton
3 years ago
Reply to  Sontol

Seen the collage of the multiple images of the Nazis marching in Ukraine, runic banners flying ?

Ever heard of Bandera?

Thought not.

Sontol
Sontol
3 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

Seen the collage of the multiple images of the Nazis marching in Ukraine, runic banners flying ?

If you are talking about the march held in Kyiv in Spring 2021 commemorating the Second World War Nazi collaborating Ukrainian Galicia / SS Division

A) it was attended by a grand total of 300 out of a population of 44 million, or 0.0007%.

B) The current Jewish President Volodymyr Zelensky stated about it that “We categorically condemn any propaganda in favour of totalitarian regimes, in particular National Socialist ones, and attempts to revise the truth about World War II”.

In general Zelensky has made his vigorously anti-Nazi and anti-fascist positions entirely clear.

Ever heard of Bandera?

You mean Stepan Bandera who died in 1959?

Without going into details of his extremely chequered political career and military activities (with Ukrainian nationalism being the only consistent thread) the Hero of Ukraine award posthumously given by Viktor Yushchenko in 2010 was annulled the next year, and again rejected by the Ukrainian parliament in 2019.

So I have no idea of his relevance to the Russian invasion of February 2022.

David Beaton
David Beaton
3 years ago
Reply to  Sontol

No, I am talking about a collage of images and so many videos over the last eight years of the marching Nazis and interviews with them and photo shots of their 2nd SS Panzer Division Das Reich’s “Wolffengel’ runic device on flags, t-shirts, arm bands – and the black sun , and the deaths head – all on show openly since the Maiden Coup staged by Nuland.and the US Deep State.

Have you never heard of the Azov Brigade and its massive expansion since 2014?

Has you seen the video footage of the “Odessa burnings” of Rusian speakers in 2014?

As for Bandera, here is an ‘idea ‘of his relevance – his followers carry his image down the streets and support his policy of ‘ethnic cleansing’ of Russia speakers to create a “racially pure” Ukraine .

Srtike any chords or relevance?

Sontol
Sontol
3 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

No, I am talking about a collage of images and so many videos over the last eight years of the marching Nazis and interviews with them and photo shots of their 2nd SS Panzer Division Das Reich’s “Wolffengel’ runic device on flags, t-shirts, arm bands – and the black sun , and the deaths head – all on show openly since the Maiden Coup staged by Nuland.and the US Deep State. You can find Nazi and neo-Nazi imagery in pretty much any country. The only relevance to the Russia invasion of Ukraine in February 2022 is that the current Zelensky government is unambiguously opposed to neo-nazism and fascism in general. Have you never heard of the Azov Brigade and its massive expansion since 2014? The Azov Brigade has now been incorporated into the official Ukrainian army and all extremist political beliefs and propaganda banned. Has you seen the video footage of the “Odessa burnings” of Rusian speakers in 2014? Well the exact nature and cause of that horrific event is disputed, but whatever happened in Odessa 8 years ago lends no justification whatsoever to the mass murder and destruction currently being carried out by Russian forces (including in the Donbass)… Read more »

RedhotScot
3 years ago
Reply to  Sontol

You can find Nazi and neo-Nazi imagery in pretty much any country. You don’t find them integrated into the armed forces which is what happened with the Azov battalion. Hiding in plain sight. See attached image. Well the exact nature and cause of that horrific event is disputed, but whatever happened in Odessa 8 years ago lends no justification whatsoever to the mass murder and destruction currently being carried out by Russian forces (including in the Donbass) Would that include the 5,000 artillery rounds fired into Donbas from Ukrainian forces in the seven days prior to Russia’s intervention? “You can see that by the time Putin invaded Ukraine, the war had already begun. The shelling of ethnic Russians had already intensified by many orders of magnitude. People were being slaughtered in droves, and tens of thousands of refugees were fleeing across the border into Russia. And, all of this had been going on since the 16th of February, a full week before Russia crossed the border. (Moon of Alabama has compiled the data on the bombardment that took place in the Donbas preceding the invasion: “The February 15 report of the OSCE Special Monitoring Mission to Ukraine recorded some 41… Read more »

Screenshot 2022-05-13 at 15.58.48.png
David Beaton
David Beaton
3 years ago
Reply to  Sontol

In ‘most countries’ it doesn’t form part of the Army, parade in the streets with the Swastika and directly seek to revive the conflicts and “ethnic cleansings”of WW2.

Russia may be the largest country in the world but spends less on its Military than the UK.

Wherever did you find any evidence that the Ukraine Government is “anti-fascist” ? Banning use of the Russian language among Russian speakers is “anti-fascist”?

Sontol
Sontol
3 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

Wherever did you find any evidence that the Ukraine Government is “anti-fascist” ? I have mentioned some of it already, in response to a neo-Nazi event in 2021 President Volodymyr Zelensky stated that “We categorically condemn any propaganda in favour of totalitarian regimes, in particular National Socialist ones, and attempts to revise the truth about World War II”. Also in 2015 the Ukrainian parliament passed a law banning the use of Nazi (as well as Communist) propaganda and symbols. Banning use of the Russian language among Russian speakers is “anti-fascist”? The preclusions only apply to the use of non-Ukrainian languages (including Russian) in the public sphere (eg education, state matters, business, theatre and films etc). Printed and online publications can be in non-Ukrainian languages (again including Russian) but are required to have a Ukrainian translation. There is no ban whatsoever on the use of Russian privately. All countries have both legal and de facto monopolistic language policies in most areas of public life; obviously English in the UK, though the SNP is trying to shoehorn in an old language spoken by a tiny minority (Gaelic) for purely political purposes. I agree that the 2019 ‘Law on Supporting the Functioning of… Read more »

Proveritate
3 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

Oh, do stop banging on about the Azov Brigade. They were volunteers and kids in 2014, but since then part of the Ukrainian National Guard, professionalized and a battalion. Yes, I’ve seen those silly pictures from 2014, kids larking around making Nazi salutes.

The idea that Ukraine is infested with neo-Nazis is just silly. You’ve been sucking the teats of too much Russian propaganda.

You can always selectively produce a few images to support your lying narrative. The Azov battalion have shown themselves to be outstanding patriots and heroes since February 24.

Mark
3 years ago
Reply to  Proveritate

Hiding behind civilians? Your ilk used to call that “terrorism” when people you didn’t like did it.

Shooting prisoners in the legs or in the head? I suppose it’s fair to say your “kids larking around” have grown up a bit.

You’d wet yourself if there were some of those “outstanding patriots and heroes” in your neighbourhood and you were a member of one of the races or cultural groups they hate and despise.

So easy to glorify or trivialise thugs when they’re “your thugs”.

Proveritate
3 years ago
Reply to  Mark

But you’d like them defending you Mark if the Russians rolled in, wouldn’t you?

Beowulf
Beowulf
3 years ago
Reply to  Proveritate

The Russians have no intention of “rolling” into the UK (unless you’re suggesting they’re assembling a fleet of rubber dinghies in Calais), but if they were, no I wouldn’t want a bunch of Ukrainian Nazis defending me.

greggsy01
greggsy01
3 years ago
Reply to  Proveritate

you can find past articles about neo nazi in Ukraine and their influence in pretty much any western mainstream media, members of US congress themselves expressed concern that US supports and trains them. you’re saying that Putin pays Reuters?

Emerald Fox
3 years ago
Reply to  greggsy01

Shouldn’t we be worrying more about the neo-Nazis in the UK?

https://shieldsafety.co.uk/resources/blog/covid-marshals-what-are-they-and-how-to-identify-them/

“Every supermarket in Southend is being visited four times a week by enforcement officers amid mounting Covid compliance complaints, it has been revealed.
Covid marshals are visiting each supermarket in the town to make sure each shop is adhering by the rules, as it emerged Southend Council has been “inundated” with complaints and tip offs surrounding businesses flouting the regulations.”

https://www.harwichandmanningtreestandard.co.uk/news/south_essex_news/19038044.covid-supermarkets-checked-marshals-four-times-week/

scummarshalls.jpg
David Beaton
David Beaton
3 years ago
Reply to  Emerald Fox

Just “Waiting in the wings” for ‘the trumpet call”?

Proveritate
3 years ago
Reply to  greggsy01

“you can find past articles about neo nazi in Ukraine and their influence in pretty much any western mainstream media”

HaHaHaHaHa. And am I supposed to believe the MSM? If you’re not a woke leftist you are a neo-Nazi according to them.

greggsy01
greggsy01
3 years ago
Reply to  Proveritate

And yet you believe msm about an existential threat from Russia just because US wants to fight Putin by the hands of Ukrainians? True that MSM can be right and wrong depending on the order of the day and who’s paying. If you don’t trust MSM on the neo nazi stories, read independent western journalists and you’ll learn a lot of interesting things. Like zelensky being elected on the promise of a peace deal in Donbass and then threatened by neo Nazis for that who accordong to MSM are irrelevant and don’t posses any influence.

Aleajactaest
3 years ago
Reply to  Proveritate

You lot really must try harder. Azov battalion, patriots and heroes –

Next you’ll be telling us that the Right Sector are Kindergarten Teachers and the SBU are Ukie Community Officers.

Proveritate
3 years ago
Reply to  Aleajactaest

Don’t try and put words into my mouth about Right Sector.

But yes, the Azov battalion have proved themselves to be outstanding heroes in the face of aggression from across the border.

Perhaps you need to look up what a hero actually is.

ImpObs
3 years ago
Reply to  Proveritate

yeah, watched a video of them shooting PoWs in the legs…

“outstanding heros”

You’re a real piece of work SMH

Aleajactaest
3 years ago
Reply to  Proveritate

Arse.

David Beaton
David Beaton
3 years ago
Reply to  Proveritate

What abusive rubbish you write!

eastender53
3 years ago
Reply to  Sontol

A Liberal Democratic country that imprisons the opposition leader and closes down anti government media? You must have gone to a different school to most of us.

Sontol
Sontol
3 years ago
Reply to  eastender53

If you mean measures which have been carried out since the Russian invasion of Ukraine all liberal democratic countries suspend many civil liberties in times of war, especially when they are actually under invasion and occupation.

On the other hand totalitarian regimes such as Russia have far more draconian measures in place all the time.

RedhotScot
3 years ago
Reply to  Sontol

Clearly, you have no idea what fascism is.

The west is far more of a fascist entity than Russia.

We have allowed, nay, encouraged the growth and intervention of big industry, in particular Silicone Valley and big pharma to dominate our politics. The very definition of fascism.

Unethical business (that’s not to say all business is unethical) has clearly demeaned and corrupted our Democracy, evidenced by the MSM’s and Social Media’s ability to, without any legal mandate, practice censorship on individual citizens and organisations of the nations it operates in.

By almost any definition we are losing or Democracy.

In complete contrast, Putin has been steadily building the Russian state in order to ensure the Democratic process prevails over technocracy.

Without a state being dominant over commerce there can be no Democracy.

Putin has an 83% approval from Russian citizens for his intervention in Ukraine.

The vast majority of the worlds population, represented by their leaderships, including China, India, Africa and Latin America refuse to condemn Russia’s intervention in Ukraine to prevent the genocide of ethnic Russians in Donbas.

The US, UK and Europe are, without a doubt the rogue entities in this equation.

CovidiousAlbion
3 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

“Without a state being dominant over commerce there can be no Democracy”

What about the people being dominant over both?

Sontol
Sontol
3 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

Clearly, you have no idea what fascism is. Fascism is a form of ultra-nationalist tyrannical government (usually with a supreme leader) where all free speech and dissent is suppressed. Methods of silencing include intimidation, and where that fails closing down problematic organisations (especially independent media), having individuals fired, political imprisonment (including on trumped up non-political charges such as financial corruption), execution or (especially in the case of Russia where official capital punishment is on a moratorium) extra-judicial assassination. One clear illustration of the current Russian state’s fascistic nature is the recent law threatening opponents of the Ukrainian invasion with up to 15 years imprisonment The west is far more of a fascist entity than Russia. Places like Britain, the US and Ukraine are multi-party liberal democracies with strong protections on freedom of speech, the nearest to the opposite of fascist (see above) that currently exists. We have allowed, nay, encouraged the growth and intervention of big industry, in particular Silicone Valley and big pharma to dominate our politics. The very definition of fascism. Private businesses in democracies neither have the legal right to nor in reality do dominate democratic politics (including in the USA as you seem to be specifying).… Read more »

TripleJabbed
TripleJabbed
3 years ago
Reply to  Noah Carl

That’s not the slam dunk you think it is, in fact it confirms the article’s thesis. Ukraine is not in NATO, is not going to join NATO and not even going to apply to join NATO precisely because it is a red line for Russia. Finland is now joining NATO, because it is not a red line for Russia. The will harumph about it, because that’s what they do.

That’s the point of the article: Russia pretends to be concerned about NATO, but the real reason for aggression is that they regard Ukraine as theirs for ethno-fascist reasons. They will live with Finland in NATO because they don’t want a pretext to attack it.

Aleajactaest
3 years ago
Reply to  TripleJabbed

bollocks.

The SMO is perfectly well articulated by Putin. Which bit of it do you not understand or do you wilfully ignore it?

ethno-fascist gave you away.

TripleJabbed
TripleJabbed
3 years ago
Reply to  Aleajactaest

Oh Lordy, Putin talks about defending a fictitious Donetsk republic. You cannot possibly be such a moron to swallow that nonsense. The real articulation is his essay “On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians” which is an ethnic justification for his fascism.

But you already knew that.

Aleajactaest
3 years ago
Reply to  TripleJabbed

and it includes ad homs as well. Articulate it ‘aint.

Back under your bridge.

TripleJabbed
TripleJabbed
3 years ago
Reply to  Aleajactaest

I’m not sure you know what ad hom means.

Aleajactaest
3 years ago
Reply to  TripleJabbed

I’m pretty sure you know what sealioning is.

TripleJabbed
TripleJabbed
3 years ago
Reply to  Aleajactaest

I don’t actually, I’m not a deviant, but I’m sure you could tell me.

Aleajactaest
3 years ago
Reply to  TripleJabbed

quod erat demonstrandum

David Beaton
David Beaton
3 years ago
Reply to  TripleJabbed

For a ‘fictitious’ Republic the Donbas People’s Militia is currently doing very well against much larger Ukraine forces.

Just for the record, the whole of Ukraine became part of Russia in 1792 with the final partition of Poland – the frontiers were very fluid . Lvov was part of Austria Hungary ( Lemberg) until 1919 when it was taken by Poland and held until 1939 when it was handed by Stalin to the Ukraine- the city was largely Polish as was what is now Western.Ukraine and serious violence took place between Poles and Ukrainians in this area in 1946 when Stalin transferred Polish and Ukrainian populations! Donbas is Russian speaking. Ukrainians and Russians have lived along side each other for centuries.

(All documented).

Noah Carl
3 years ago
Reply to  TripleJabbed

I don’t particularly care about Russia’s security concerns – real or imagined. But I do care about avoiding nuclear war. If you can’t understand why Russia would oppose another country in Eastern Europe joining NATO, especially one to which it has strong historical ties, consider that Australia and the US regard China building a military base in the Solomon Islands as a threat to Australia. And you are mistaken about Ukraine and NATO (see my reply here).

greggsy01
greggsy01
3 years ago
Reply to  Noah Carl

Not only Russia opposes Ukraine joining NATO, but a lot of Ukrainians themselves oppose joining NATO and severing ties with Russia. You wouldn’t be surprised if on a referendum the majority would vote against joining NATO. there is a reason why US/NATO used far right radicals and neo nazis to influence public opinion using violence.

ebygum
3 years ago
Reply to  greggsy01

I’ve said this before…I agree, no one is asking what the ordinary Ukrainian wants, because for all their blather, nobody cares…and because Zelenskyy has either arrested or banned all opposition, like a good democratic leader does, naturally…no one is there to make the views of the ordinary person known….which seems to suit everyone in the West….

greggsy01
greggsy01
3 years ago
Reply to  ebygum

when ordinary Ukrainians were asked last time – Crimea as well as DPR voted overwhelming against Maidan. Of course Kiev is afraid of asking more questions.

David Beaton
David Beaton
3 years ago
Reply to  greggsy01

After this crisis fermented by Nuland and Nato I think we can guess the answer!

Fingal
Fingal
3 years ago
Reply to  Noah Carl

Whether or not it was a good idea diplomatically to expand NATO, the problem with Russia goes a lot deeper than that. Russia has never accepted that its ex-Soviet republic neighbours should have true independence.

At the mild end, this means Putin won’t allow them to have an independent foreign policy or join institutions like the EU.

At the darker end, it extends to full proxy control, as in Belarus and (up until Maidan) Ukraine.

Sontol
Sontol
3 years ago

Very good article, and much needed in the face of the bombardment of invasion-excusing / supporting propaganda on this site.

Of course the Putin regime, one which rules over the largest country in the world with over 6,000 nuclear weapons, was never genuinely in fear of attack by the NATO defensive alliance – the idea is simply preposterous.

What they did fear was that the increasingly liberal-democratic nature of former Soviet Union colonies such as Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, and indeed Ukraine, would influence the brutally oppressed Russian population into seeking the same reforms at home.

As well as being motivated by simple ultra-nationalist / fascistic ambitions to recreate the Soviet or Tsarist empire (all on the record).

ImpObs
3 years ago
Reply to  Sontol

What they did fear was that the increasingly liberal-democratic nature

of former Soviet Union colonies such as Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, and

indeed Ukraine

LOL transparrent, weapons grade, sophistry.

As well as being motivated by simple ultra-nationalist / fascistic ambitions

and weapons grade projection!

John Dee
3 years ago
Reply to  ImpObs

Weapons-grade?
I’d have said primary-school level.
If there’s one thing I’ve learned over the last two years, it was that, however sceptical I was of the MSM, it was never enough.
As rockoman points out in a comment below, some ‘liberal’ countries have been the most enthusiastic proponents of illiberal crappery during the Wu-flu plague.

David Beaton
David Beaton
3 years ago
Reply to  John Dee

MSM now “over” as far as any truth is concerned!

rockoman
rockoman
3 years ago
Reply to  Sontol

“increasingly liberal-democratic nature of former Soviet Union colonies such as Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia”

https://www.baltictimes.com/people_without_covid-19_certificates_will_have_access_only_to_essential_stores_as_of_next_week/

Sontol
Sontol
3 years ago
Reply to  rockoman

I totally agree that many of the coronavirus measures in democratic countries were shockingly illiberal, and vehemently opposed them as such.

On the other hand the totalitarian nature of regimes like those of Russia and China, which includes suppression of all free speech and dissent (eg via imprisonment and execution) is at a completely different level.

John Dee
3 years ago
Reply to  Sontol

You really think we’ve enjoyed ‘free speech’ here in the UK since the Chinese plague measures began?

Sontol
Sontol
3 years ago
Reply to  John Dee

Relatively, yes.

How many critics of Coronavirus policies in the UK have been interned, poisoned or shot? (as happens to political and journalistic dissenters in Russia).

I have been a staunch critic of lockdowns, mask and vaccine mandates etc and received literally zero state push-backs.

greggsy01
greggsy01
3 years ago
Reply to  Sontol

So, how is ‘Soviet or Tsarist empire’ creation going for Puting after 20 years in power? Naturally, former republics which are not in NATO (majority) would have been swallowed by now?

Sontol
Sontol
3 years ago
Reply to  greggsy01

Having an ambition and fulfilling it are not the same thing.

The reintegration of Ukraine into the Russian ‘motherland’ (which Putin stated as a goal in his 2021 essay ‘On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians’) would be a large step in the general empire-recreating direction.

greggsy01
greggsy01
3 years ago
Reply to  Sontol

so how about police decides that you have an ambition of going on a shoplifting spree in a year and locks you behind bars today?

David Beaton
David Beaton
3 years ago
Reply to  greggsy01

“Preventive detention “- all Fascist States use it!

Sontol
Sontol
3 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

I’ll repeat my reply to greggsy1 in case you miss it:

Russia has never been [metaphorically] locked behind bars.

Furthermore it is not currently being opposed because of future ambitions but rather its ongoing mass killing and destruction in Ukraine.

David Beaton
David Beaton
3 years ago
Reply to  Sontol

Sorry, but I “missed” nothing of consequnce.

Sontol
Sontol
3 years ago
Reply to  greggsy01

Russia has never been [metaphorically] locked behind bars.

Furthermore it is not currently being opposed because of future ambitions but rather its ongoing mass killing and destruction in Ukraine.

greggsy01
greggsy01
3 years ago
Reply to  Sontol

you don’t even read and watch western MSM, do you? such an overwhelming response (though from a handful of western countries only) and billions in lethal aid and discouragement of Ukraine from peace talks is only possible on the pretense that Russia is an existential threat to the western civilization as the only thing on its mind apparently is swallowing and enslaving other countries. ‘an ambition of swallowing and enslaving other countries’ is what Russia is being locked (metaphorically) behind bars for. As otherwise if its just another local conflict like Palestine (Yemen, <add your own> ) you wouldn’t be able to convince other countries and their peoples to join in in self destructive exercise.

ebygum
3 years ago
Reply to  Sontol

…why then are we not opposing Saudi action in Yemen…or Israel’s actions in Palestine with the same vigour…oh could it be because it’s all about Russia and nothing to do with Ukraine? Bingo!

Fingal
Fingal
3 years ago
Reply to  ebygum

Yes, and you might ask why we didn’t attack Russia when they slaughtered people in Chechnya.

ImpObs
3 years ago
Reply to  Sontol

The reintegration of Ukraine into the Russian ‘motherland’ (which Putin
stated as a goal in his 2021 essay ‘On the Historical Unity of Russians
and Ukrainians’)

Liar.

https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2021/08/15/the-historical-unity-of-russians-and-ukrainians/

Sontol
Sontol
3 years ago
Reply to  ImpObs

https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2021/08/15/the-historical-unity-of-russians-and-ukrainians/ This document published in August 2021 (between the two Russian troop build ups on the Ukrainian border of March – April 2021 and October 2021 – February 2022) provides a clear blueprint for the Russian annexation of Ukraine. Here are some relevant extracts, beginning with the opening sentence: During the recent Direct Line, when I was asked about Russian-Ukrainian relations, I said that Russians and Ukrainians were one people – a single whole [my bold] Towards the end: The Western authors of the anti-Russia project set up the Ukrainian political system in such a way that presidents, members of parliament and ministers would change but the attitude of separation from and enmity with Russia would remain. Today, the ”right“ patriot of Ukraine is only the one who hates Russia. Moreover, the entire Ukrainian statehood, as we understand it, is proposed to be further built exclusively on this idea. Hate and anger, as world history has repeatedly proved this, are a very shaky foundation for sovereignty, fraught with many serious risks and dire consequences [my bold] All the subterfuges associated with the anti-Russia project are clear to us. And we will never allow our historical territories and people close to… Read more »

ImpObs
3 years ago
Reply to  Sontol

your assertions are not supported by the quoted text.

At best sophistry, at worst lies.

Sontol
Sontol
3 years ago
Reply to  ImpObs

your assertions are not supported by the quoted text.
At best sophistry, at worst lies.

Ones which you are apparently unable to specify.

TheBasicMind
3 years ago
Reply to  Sontol

Yep agree completely. Many of the commenters on here are the right leaning equivalent of the Left’s Oikophobes. Their arguments simply ignore the massively germane non-trivial point that Putin has invaded a sovereign state and they rationalise the notion we (the West) are at fault because we prompted him to do it. When rationalisation is distorted to that extent, there is always a dogma behind it. The dogma in this case is a shadowy untrustworthy Western Elite acting acting as puppet masters. They are continuing their favourite theme regarding alleged shadowy forces behind Coronavirus authoritarianism and of course the conspiratorial notion of a “puppet master“ has been with us throughout history. Of course there is such thing as a hyper wealthy Western elite, and they do have agenda’s and outsized influence. It’s just that IMO (and the opinion of most people who have a sense of proportion) the means of control is systemic rather than a planned coup to take over government and lurch towards authoritarianism. When, for example, a college board in Canada suspended an academic who disagreed with vaccination and lockdowns and we could hear the tape of the meeting they held to discuss it, it is absolutely… Read more »

Sontol
Sontol
3 years ago
Reply to  TheBasicMind

Thank you for that. I opposed the draconian CV-19 measures such as lockdowns and vaccine mandates (to me a massively illiberal and ultimately futile over-reaction to a flu-like virus) but never believed that it was all being engineered and enforced by shadowy conspiratorial forces such as the WEF.

All these string-pulling conspiracy theories do is undermine faith in liberal-democracy, which in turn benefits tyrannical agendas such as those of Russia and China.

In fact the vast majority of the populations involved, including in the UK, fully supported the coronavirus regulations, sometimes calling for stricter ones. There was also, of course the rather large material incentives of furlough and work-from-home for those lucky enough to be able to do so.

In terms of the widespread support for the Russian invasion on this site, the frequently stated position that the government and media were wrong about Covid so must be wrong about everything else is clearly ridiculous.

In any case, and I am certainly not directing this at any specific posters, but given the speed and quantity of pro-Russian material and upticks here I think there is every indication of an organised propaganda campaign.

PartyTime
3 years ago
Reply to  Sontol

The problem is that if you don’t think the COVID response was being engineered by the WEF then you have to assume a lot of coincidences. Just a coincidence that politicians in many different countries adopted the slogans of this unelected lobby group. Just a coincidence that they ran an exercise just before the pandemic, rehearsing the medically unorthodox measures that were adopted. Just a coincidence that the WEF has been heavily promoting digital ID and a few years ago identified vaccinations as a convenient way to introduce them. Just a coincidence that the Macron government started a digital ID programme two days after winning the recent election. Just a coincidence that the UK government repeatedly lied about not introducing medically useless vaxpasses and has been considering digital ID. Just a coincidence that two heads of state (Haiti, Madagascar) who didn’t go with the programme were attacked by foreign assassins and another (Tanzania) died in hospital to be replaced by a WEF graduate. The only thing about the WEF that’s “shadowy” is that the media don’t talk about them much. The WEF itself is pretty open about its operations. Do you really think there’s nothing wrong with an unelected lobby… Read more »

Sontol
Sontol
3 years ago
Reply to  PartyTime

I agree that the WEF, WHO and other transnational agencies assisted in the coordination of coronavirus policies across the world. Also that most of these bodies are pursuing a very harmful Green / ultra-health / digital control agenda, at least partially at the behest of the CCP.

The point I am making is that all this is being carried out in the open (so nothing ‘shadowy’ about it) and can only succeed with the full cooperation of relevant individual governments – and, indeed the compliance of affected populations, which are near universally under the sway of the self-destructive and inherently anti-liberty environmentalist religion.

John Dee
3 years ago
Reply to  TheBasicMind

Hardly ‘shadowy ‘ Elite, surely?
Various of them have stated (or admitted) that what’s happening in Ukraine is really a proxy war with Russia, with Ukrainians as handy cannon-fodder.
I don’t agree at all with what Putin has done, by the way. I just don’t accept that the West is blameless, or that they’re not somehow pleased with how things are turning out.

ebygum
3 years ago
Reply to  TheBasicMind

So Putin invaded a sovereign state, now do ALL the sovereign states that have been invaded and explain what’s different this time??

TheBluePill
3 years ago

We are supposed to believe that Russia has an army of online trolls and skilled hackers ready to cripple our business and infrastructure at their leisure. Meanwhile in the Empire of Lies, create a story about Ukraine/Russia/Putin and a flock of blatent anti-Russia trolls seem to arrive within minutes.

greggsy01
greggsy01
3 years ago

You mean to say that neutral Finland having second longest border, past (rich) history with Russia haven’t been invaded during all these years on the false pretense of repressed pro-Russian separatists sponsored by Kremlin? How much did Putin pay you, Ian?

David Beaton
David Beaton
3 years ago
Reply to  greggsy01

The ‘Winter War’ of 1940 over a southern border dispute The UK sent aircraft ( Gloucester Gladiators) to support the Finns (while also being ‘at War’ with Nazi Germany) . It cost Finland a strip of territory around Lake Ladoga . Joining Hitler’s attack on the SU in 1941 cost them a bit more . Peace ever since.

Anything else you need to know?

greggsy01
greggsy01
3 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

yes, that’s what’s called a shared history. You can spin it the way you want and attack and swallow neutral and peaceful democratic country if that’s what you normally do. but that hasn’t happened, has it. Because, maybe, contrary to what MSM leads the public to believe to justify the proxy war, Russia/Putin is not an existential enemy to the west?

ebygum
3 years ago
Reply to  greggsy01

Why do you quote history in relation to Finland, but think the last eight years (of history) have nothing to do with the Russias invasion of Ukraine?

TripleJabbed
TripleJabbed
3 years ago
Reply to  ebygum

Which part of the eight years of Russia sending agents provocateurs into Ukraine to foment violence would you like to talk about? Maybe the bit where Russia violated the Budapest Memorandum?

ebygum
3 years ago
Reply to  TripleJabbed

But again the reality is I would be able to find just as much information on Ukrainian/far right atrocities as well…
”Non-governmental organisations, such as Amnesty International also raised concerns about the behaviour of some Ukrainian ’volunteer Battalions’….Amnesty International said that they often acted like “renegade gangs”, and were implicated in torture, abductions, and summary executions.”
so which bit of Ukrainians torturing and killing people do you want to talk about?

TripleJabbed
TripleJabbed
3 years ago
Reply to  ebygum

All of it. I have no problem at all highlighting the corruption of Ukraine. Get it all out, not just the propaganda. I’m as happy to oppose invading corrupt dumps as I am to oppose invading Switzerland. Invading countries is wrong, I suspect 20,000 Russian parents might agree.

David Beaton
David Beaton
3 years ago
Reply to  TripleJabbed

So it was the Russian ‘agents’ who shelled the Russians in Donbas then to blame the peaceful Ukrainians – I see where I got it all so wrong!

They did a good job on the towns and schools as well and even killed 14,000 people!

Strange then how the people of the Donbas begged the Russians to intervene for 8 years and welcomed them with open arms .

greggsy01
greggsy01
3 years ago
Reply to  ebygum

where is it that you found me rejecting ‘history’ between Russia and Ukraine? It’s clear this conflict started not in Feb 2022 but 8 years ago contrary to what the west wants you to believe.
My original post about Finland is that the article by Ron implicitly states that Finland, although being neutral and on the Russian border, hasn’t been enslaved or attacked once because it’s what normally happens to all Russian non-NATO neighbors according to the current narrative which excuses the proxy war.

Emerald Fox
3 years ago
Reply to  ebygum

If the UK starts staking in refugees from Finland I think there will be surprised faces when huge families of Somalis turn up!

David Beaton
David Beaton
3 years ago
Reply to  Emerald Fox

Having now lived with Serial Liars in Office for three long years, nothing would surprise !

David Beaton
David Beaton
3 years ago
Reply to  greggsy01

The ‘facts’ of the Finnish-Russian relationship and the Finnish independece movement against the Tsarist Empire, together with the 1940 Winter War and the 1941-45 conflict speak for themselves .

The Finns would perhaps have been wise ( like Sweden) to remain neutral when Hitler attacked the USSR in June 1941 rather than join him.

JayBee
3 years ago

All this does is increase the risk of an accidental nuclear response on either side.
It certainly doesn’t increase security for anyone.

TheBluePill
3 years ago
Reply to  JayBee

It boosts terror of dying in a thermonuclear fireball, and government-inflicted terror is and has been the aim of the game for several years now. They want our populations to utterly lose their minds and start frothing at any particular enemy on demand.

David Beaton
David Beaton
3 years ago
Reply to  JayBee

Does the US really want a nuclear war? It increasingly seems that way.

The US leadership are the most deranged and dangerous in modern times – and we are standing “shoulder to shoulder”with Biden and doing “stand ups” in Kiev with the not -so -modest, stooge ‘pinist’ clown “President”

God help us with Johnson in charge!

RedhotScot
3 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

Let’s put it this way, if Russia colluded with Trump to swing his election, did they collude with Biden to swing it his way?

As someone put it at the time, for the hundred thousand or so Trump allegedly paid to have the election swung his way, Hilary had her order in with Putin for the next ten elections the day after Trump was elected.

With two and a half years to go before another Republican POTUS (probably Trump) which is likely to be maintained for the next 20 years after Biden’s fuck up’s, Russia won’t invoke thermonuclear war. Trump is a peacemaker and Putin seemed to respect him.

The best thing that can happen is that America embarks on a Neocon enema with a Christmas tree over that 20 year period, then we may have a peaceful planet.

GlassHalfFull
3 years ago

Finland have been an associate partner of Nato for many years without actually being a full member and Russia has already been treating them as such.

Russia has warned other countries that joining Nato is a threat to Russia which will have consequences.

The US and Nato are the biggest threat to world peace not Russia.

SallyM
SallyM
3 years ago

Time for another name change: pieces like this have nothing whatsoever to do with scepticism.

TripleJabbed
TripleJabbed
3 years ago
Reply to  SallyM

It is sceptical of Russia, it is a perfect piece. Scepticism isn’t just another name for attacking things you dislike.

Aleajactaest
3 years ago
Reply to  TripleJabbed

and likewise of your Empire of Lies. What’s good for your goose etc….

and to be clear, I am, unfortunately, a resident, born and bred, of one of those Empire’s colonies.

TripleJabbed
TripleJabbed
3 years ago
Reply to  Aleajactaest

You know nothing about me, friend.

Aleajactaest
3 years ago
Reply to  TripleJabbed

and for my retort to this d ick – and DS’ removal of said post >

I ain’t your friend p ri ck

TripleJabbed
TripleJabbed
3 years ago
Reply to  Aleajactaest

oh please, let’s not let a special proxy operation come between us. Hugs and kisses, sweetie.

Aleajactaest
3 years ago
Reply to  TripleJabbed

can’t even get the SMO name correct. Foreign are we?

RedhotScot
3 years ago
Reply to  Aleajactaest

Nope, he’s Triplejabbed. And we know what that does to people.

SallyM
SallyM
3 years ago
Reply to  TripleJabbed

Scepticism isn’t another name for criticising something you dislike. Define the term that broadly and it applies to almost everything.

TheBluePill
3 years ago
Reply to  SallyM

The Daily Sceptic: Question Everything*, Stay Sane, Live Free

* Unless the conclusions mean that everything you thought you were part of turns out to be a festering lie, and your “team” is actually an axis of evil.

Sontol
Sontol
3 years ago
Reply to  SallyM

I see, so the scepticism as ‘question everything’ slogan (which to me simply means checking stated facts and coming to your own conclusions, not being inherently suspicious) should apply to liberal-democratic government and media statements and agendas, but not those of inherently much more deceitful and controlling totalitarian-fascist regimes such as those of Russia and China.

I am afraid I can only strongly disagree.

RedhotScot
3 years ago
Reply to  Sontol

There is nothing factual about geopolitics.

Don’t present your ignorance is such an obvious manner.

Sontol
Sontol
3 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

There is nothing factual about geopolitics.

I made no mention of the term geopolitics, but in any case the concept certainly can include factual elements.

Don’t present your ignorance is such an obvious manner.

I’ll present my ignorance in any manner I see fit!

Julian
3 years ago
Reply to  SallyM

Maybe, maybe not. But key point here is that DS has published articles giving varying points of view on the matter in hand, and allows comments from all points of view. That’s a big plus point.

RedhotScot
3 years ago
Reply to  Julian

It is a big plus point, until they allow gibberish in articles.

eastender53
3 years ago

President Ronald Reagan said the American troops were sent into Grenada to protect U.S. citizens there and to prevent the island’s use as a base for Soviet and Cuban aggression in the Western Hemisphere.

So that was ok then?

TripleJabbed
TripleJabbed
3 years ago
Reply to  eastender53

This invasion was opposed by Her Majesty’s government, and the UN and the Commonwealth. It is possible to be against more than one thing.

eastender53
3 years ago
Reply to  TripleJabbed

You’ve lost me. My point is that if the US wants to be the world’s policeman it has to be Caeser’s wife.

David Beaton
David Beaton
3 years ago
Reply to  eastender53

The US married Medusa, of the snake hair, everything it touches or looks at turns to stone!

David Beaton
David Beaton
3 years ago
Reply to  TripleJabbed

Is that the ‘new’ Chinese Commonwealth to which you refer?

RedhotScot
3 years ago
Reply to  TripleJabbed

This invasion was opposed by Her Majesty’s government, and the UN and the Commonwealth.

That’s OK then, as HM government have never been wrong, nor the UN, nor the Commonwealth.

Despite that most of the world, including China, India, Africa and Latin America think they are wrong because they refuse to condemn Russia for its Intervention in genocide.

rockoman
rockoman
3 years ago

“The truth is that this war concerns the sovereignty and self-determination of a nation state: a core and immutable Western value, older than the Treaty of Westphalia, that flows from the Christian belief in individual sovereignty.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luDrsd7iPLc

David Beaton
David Beaton
3 years ago
Reply to  rockoman

So where is our “Sovereignty” and that of Northern Ireland under the Johnson Globalist Regime, acting under now seemingly permanent “Emergency Powers”?

mishmash
3 years ago

Finland, creators of a 6G network they are calling ‘Genesis 6‘.
No wonder the media is entering them onto the world stage at this point, when else does Finland get a mention? It’s all scripted.

“So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” Genesis 6:7

“If there’s one thing I hate worse than prophecy, it’s self fulfilling prophecy”. – Bill Maher

Not long until the end of the world folks, enjoy yourselves.

RedhotScot
3 years ago
Reply to  mishmash

I seem to remember Finland being home to one of the most innovative mobile phone companies in the world, Nokia.

A flip phone was the symbol of the devil to some back then.

Vaxtastic
3 years ago

Liberal western values

These include population replacement, the erosion of the family, the promotion of behaviours traditionally seen as destructive, and the widespread clampdown on free speech.

Putin has been quite clear on what he views as absolutely destructive policies in western nations, all championed by elites with zero connection to the people they ostensibly govern. There is some truth to his claim that Russians now are more European than western Europe.

Russia is hardly a bastion of freedom or liberal thought, but his views on looking out for the welfare of citizens resonate with many ordinary Russians and increasingly with people in the west who are watching their own culture and society be comprehensively attacked by the very people we expect to protect it.

A simple example is absolutely no one gets away with toppling statues or defacing war memorials and cenotaphs in Putin’s Russia. A small observation but indicative of the deep currents driving Russian culture, however corrupt it may be.

David Beaton
David Beaton
3 years ago
Reply to  Vaxtastic

Sound post!

Shimpling Chadacre
3 years ago
Reply to  Vaxtastic

Well said.

RedhotScot
3 years ago
Reply to  Vaxtastic

My understanding from a friend who lives there is that there isn’t much government to be corrupt. They don’t have legions of local government and parish councils. People are left to sort things out between themselves.

It’s not perfect, and there is corruption, but point me to a council in the UK where corruption isn’t normalised and accepted.

Mark
3 years ago

“Russia’s Muted Response to Finland’s Interest in Joining NATO Suggests its Invasion of Ukraine Was Nothing to do With NATO Expansion” The unbalanced nature of this conclusion reflects the biased nature of the piece overall, which means that it makes many valid points, in a good but systematically limited discussion, but is limited by the need to rationalise the position held by the writer. A simple glance at the map will tell you why Ukraine as a NATO member is far more significant a threat than Finland. Any honest analysis would reflect that reality, not try to bury it. That’s without bringing in factors such as the close social, business and familial ties across the Russian-Ukrainian border, the product of centuries of being part of the same country, or the strong influence of viciously Russia-hating extremist groups and attitudes within the Ukraine. These are complex matters, and there are always multiple motivations for any such actions. The result is that it is always possible to construct cases as this piece does. But in the end it is based at heart upon nonsense ideas that our side are the good guys and the other side the bad guys, and their motives… Read more »

For a fist full of roubles
Reply to  Mark

I think it is particularly important that the close ties between the two countries are within most people’s lifetime, and therefore fresh in their memories.

Star
3 years ago
Reply to  Mark

“A simple glance at the map will tell you why Ukraine as a NATO member is far more significant a threat than Finland.” Out of interest, how do you argue that from the map? Finland has been pro-western for a few decades now, albeit not to the point of joining NATO. Even beforehand, and as a non-western country, it was militarily a force to be reckoned with, and it was taken very seriously as such by the USSR. Sweden is also more of a player than some people think. Owned by one family, the Wallenbergs (who don’t tend to have as many wives and children as Gulf despots), the Swedish regime has a bit of a “mini-imperialist” racket going on, both in Scandinavia and in the Baltic states. I somehow doubt the Finnish government is about to sign a big contract to buy Swedish weapons and import lots of Swedish advisers to show them how to work them. Russia won’t invade Finland the day after Finland joins NATO, but this isn’t because they were wicked liars with reference to the Ukraine, only eventually to be exposed as such by compradore western scribblers. It’s because there is no analogue of the… Read more »

Mark
3 years ago
Reply to  Star

Out of interest, how do you argue that from the map?”

Because the Ukraine sticks right into the heart of Russia, whereas Finland is on the fringe, and adds little geographically beyond what Norway and Estonia already provide.

I recall Putin noting that NATO recon flights in the Ukraine would have detailed coverage out to the Urals. This is merely one reflection of the impossible task Russia would face in policing a NATO Ukraine.

That’s not to say that your other points aren’t valid as well. One of the things I’ve learned about real world events over the past half century is that almost nothing big ever happens for just one reason. There are always multiple motives and interests pointing in the direction that policy goes.

Proveritate
3 years ago
Reply to  Mark

“Because the Ukraine sticks right into the heart of Russia, whereas Finland is on the fringe, and adds little geographically beyond what Norway and Estonia already provide.”

Oh, yea. Well take another look at the map and see how close St Petersburg is to Finland. Finland used to start at the northern suburbs of Leningrad until the Russians swiped that bit off Finland. And their access to the White sea. And their nickel mines in Karelia.

Finland was so much ‘on the fringe’ that Russia decided to invade her in 1939 and carve off what suited them; not to mention forcing them to lease a naval base to them in Finland at Porkala, close to the capital.

This idea that Finland is ‘on the fringe’ is inept. Don’t make me laugh. Looks like you’ve never spent any serious time in Finland or Russia or you wouldn’t be making such an ignorant comment.

Mark
3 years ago
Reply to  Proveritate

None of that bilge has anything to do with the point under discussion, which was geography and its impact on the security situation.

Reread it and decide if you want to make a substantive contribution or not.

Proveritate
3 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Your usual form of response when you have no substantive contribution yourself.

David Beaton
David Beaton
3 years ago
Reply to  Star

What would Russia actually want in Finland? Any ideas? have you seen the size of the adjacent Russian territory? Whatever Finland has Russia has in spades.

Russia has offered trade deals and partnership with the West – under US pressure, Europe has refused.

This generation of EU politicians do not work for European interests. UVDL has even told us she is more a “Citizen of the World” than German or European.

Europe is being taken down by its own Globalist Elite in line with “US Exceptionalism” theory that demands the destruction of Russia – that’s the Game plan. The US wants a weak Europe in thrall to its Deep State mafia and their deranged, war mongering, constant ‘regime change’ plots.

“Sanctions” ( Economic Warfare) against Russia which actually destroy European economies – what politician who cared in the least about Europe and its people would ever endorse such nonsense as that?

Yet here we are!

TripleJabbed
TripleJabbed
3 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

Well, you rather concede the point, for you imply that there is something to want in Ukraine, forgetting that Russia claim not to want anything other than peace. I think it more likely that this is indeed a war of conquest, looking for goodies to give out to Putin’s cronies.

David Beaton
David Beaton
3 years ago
Reply to  TripleJabbed

I don’t imply anything of the kind or concede any point.

You persist in painting Russia as an ‘Evil wannabe Empire’ when the real ‘Evil Empire of Lies’ is on the other side of the Atlantic, currently conducting a long planned ‘proxy war’ against Russia using the bodies of Ukrainians as canon fodder .

Eight years of US Deep State rule in Kiev since Maiden show that the US doesn’t care a damn about Ukraine or its people just about all the assets it can exploit and strip and how it can be used to take down Russia..

RedhotScot
3 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

👍

Proveritate
3 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

“What would Russia actually want in Finland? Any ideas? have you seen the size of the adjacent Russian territory? Whatever Finland has Russia has in spades.”

If you drive from Finland into Russia, as I have for business, you will see that as soon as you enter Russia you enter Gangsterland. Drive through Vyborg (once Finnish Viipuri, the Jewel of the Baltic) and see how the Russians have trashed the place. Go out for a smoke and get mugged. Try to fend off the pimps and whores in the hotels and see where that gets you – seriously wounded. Only place in the world where I’ve been held up at gunpoint, and factories have to have guards on duty with automatic weapons.

St Petersburg is the most beautiful city I have ever seen, but here and in Moscow, it’s done up for show, for tourists. Get out into the real Russia and it’s crap. One great big pile of it.

greggsy01
greggsy01
3 years ago
Reply to  Proveritate

So Vyborg is like Glasgow or East London then? w/o mentioning other shitholes of the UK. I didn’t know russians were here…

Proveritate
3 years ago
Reply to  greggsy01

Have you ever been there, worked there? I have. I was born and grew up in East London. I can tell you, Vyborg is scarier than anything you’ll find here.

greggsy01
greggsy01
3 years ago
Reply to  Proveritate

So, let’s get Ukrainians slaughtered and leave their country in rubbles or worse start nuclear holocaust just because you were a bit unlucky with hookers in Vyborg. Gotcha

btw, i know many people who went to 2018 worldcup in russia and said good things about the country and the people. No one was mugged, although it is a possibility, of course, as in other places including UK let alone SA, Brazil, etc

Emerald Fox
3 years ago
Reply to  Proveritate

That sounds about right. As soon as you drive across the border into Russia everything is covered in a blanket of grey and depression – look at the railway tracks and they’re all twisted – people sitting by the sides of roads selling what little they have, maybe a few carrots from their allotment. Russia has nothing to do with ‘communism’, it is run by a mafia, and a good deal of them live happily in the UK and use the English courts, with very expensive judges and lawyers, to fight it out between themselves. British politicians have been lured into their web and do their bidding. “One of the biggest donors to Britain’s Conservative Party is suspected of secretly funneling hundreds of thousands of dollars to the party from a Russian account, according to a bank alert filed to Britain’s national law enforcement agency. The donation, of $630,225, was made in February 2018 in the name of Ehud Sheleg, a wealthy London art dealer who was most recently the Conservative Party’s treasurer. The money was part of a fund-raising blitz that helped propel Prime Minister Boris Johnson and his party to a landslide victory in the 2019 general election.… Read more »

Proveritate
3 years ago
Reply to  Emerald Fox

“Russia has nothing to do with ‘communism’, it is run by a mafia”

Absolutely. All these commenters here about Finland and Russia are armchair commentators, never having been to, lived or worked in the place – only perhaps visited as tourists the places that they want you to see. Such it always was in communist times, showcasing Leningrad and Moscow to show how grand communism is.

But get out into the real world and see the real Russia and it’s really crap. It’s a gansterland run by mafia.

RedhotScot
3 years ago
Reply to  Proveritate

A friend of mine lives in Ufa. Been there since the wall came down. A journalist in fact.

He loves the place. 14% income tax rate, free healthcare, little to no government intervention in his life.

Good roads and infrastructure with an international airport on his doorstep.

Never met a Mafia type in 30+ years of living there.

Aleajactaest
3 years ago
Reply to  Proveritate

Why don’t you two get a room

RedhotScot
3 years ago
Reply to  Proveritate

You are full of shit. Russia is a demonstrably safer place to live than the USA by international comparison.

For a fist full of roubles

As far as I can find out Ian Rons believes in free speech. Apart I can’t find anything that qualifies him to speak authoritatively on this topic.
So I will put it down as opinion and I will go along with his right to say it.
However I think his claim to know Russia’s motivations is a shallow assessment and is plain is wrong.
But hey, that is just my opinion.

Alter Ego
Alter Ego
3 years ago

He seems to be complaining about the fact that the Russians are capable of politically sophisticated analyses of their situation; rather than acting like hysterical teenagers.

Note that Russia has been involved in diplomacy with regard to Ukraine for years – in which they repeatedly stated their issues of concern.

David Beaton
David Beaton
3 years ago

Your opinion will do just fine! I share it!

Star
3 years ago

Have a biscuit for this utterly one-sided pro-Pentagon propaganda article, Ian.

St Petersburg is about 250 miles from Finland, hardly “very close”. It’s nearer Estonia.

The Russian response to the Israeli-encouraged Georgian effort in 2008 wasn’t principally to do with, or even propagandised with much reference to, the “ethnic Russians” to whom for some reason you repeatedly give inverted commas. Most Abkhazians and South Ossetians don’t want to be under the Georgian government’s thumb. They prefer to be allied with Russia.

Wait, there is a Russian writer in Moscow right now called “Nai” who says that British policy in Northern Ireland was long motivated by “ethnic English” considerations…

Russia is not undergoing a demographic crisis. The government could easily incentivise having more babies if it wanted to.

You don’t even mention the Donbas…

It’s the Kiev regime that’s revanchist.

TripleJabbed
TripleJabbed
3 years ago
Reply to  Star

Anywhere with a fertility rate of 1.82 is experiencing a demographic crisis. Especially when life expectancy is 73.

Proveritate
3 years ago
Reply to  Star

“St Petersburg is about 250 miles from Finland, hardly “very close”.”

Don’t talk such rot. There speaks one who has never been there.

I can tell you from personal experience of Finland and Russia that it is no further than from London to Birmingham, 100 miles tops.

ebygum
3 years ago
Reply to  Proveritate

Oo…should have gone to spec-savers..

according to Wiki’……The distance from central St Petersburg to the border with Finland is 400 km (250 mi) but I do love to see someone put a foot up their own ar*e….

David Beaton
David Beaton
3 years ago
Reply to  ebygum

But he used to live there… so he knows better on all things Russian and Finnish!

RedhotScot
3 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

But he used to live there… 

So he says.

TSull
TSull
3 years ago
Reply to  ebygum

It is around 200km by road to Torfyanovka, which is next to the border with Finland. Star was right in one claim though, that Estonia is nearer. From St Petersburg to Narva is around 170km. Stating these facts does not mean I support Proveritate’s obvious Russophobia though!

Emerald Fox
3 years ago
Reply to  Star

St Petersburg (Leningrad) is 390km from Helsinki (about 250 miles) – Vaalimaa (on the border) to St Petersburg is only 206k (about 130 miles).

David Beaton
David Beaton
3 years ago

The title is both illogical and untrue – it was a major factor.

What do you want Russia to do, scream, shout and jump up and down like Von der Leyen, Nuland, Johnson, Rutte, Scholz and the rest of the Wests’ Freak Show leadership? .

Russia will quietly take note, draw conclusions about NATO intentions …and prepare.

Alter Ego
Alter Ego
3 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

Spot on. The author seems amazed by the fact that a nation is capable of conducting its foreign policy with any degree of calmness.

NonCompliant
3 years ago

Thought this was a site was supposed to be for ‘sceptics’ and not narrative boot lickers lol.

I think the Fins are in for a cold, cold winter personally. Their WEF chums will be most pleased no doubt.

Mark
3 years ago
Reply to  NonCompliant

It’s a site for free discussion and debate, above all.

Granted there’s an argument that there’s no need for pieces that push the Official Truth position that is anyway pushed endlessly in our mainstream media and on social media, but there’s also the argument that debate is healthy, even necessary.

Myself, I think this is a good piece even though I think it is grossly biased and prejudiced, incorrect in lots of key points, and wrong in its conclusion. It’s still a good piece because it is well written and also makes a lot of strong points for the (imo) incorrect side, that need to be accounted for or refuted if we are to be confident in our own positions.

RedhotScot
3 years ago
Reply to  Mark

I’m afraid I can’t summon up your generosity of spirit. Winnie The Pooh is well written, but it’s still a lot of nonsense. Nice nonsense, but nonsense nonetheless.

grossly biased and prejudiced, incorrect in lots of key points, and wrong in its conclusion

I’m not convinced anyone could be more scathing.

Emerald Fox
3 years ago
Reply to  NonCompliant

It’s OK – the Prime Minister, Sanna Marin, puts her food shopping for her family on her expenses account. She won’t be cold next winter.
She doesn’t give a fig about spreading Covid around either:

“Finnish PM, Sanna Marin has apologised for dancing in a Helsinki nightclub hours after she was knowingly exposed to coronavirus.”

bluemonkey
bluemonkey
3 years ago

Maybe if Finland underwent a US lead regime change op and then became hostile towards Russia, and established numerous US bio weapons labs, things might look different?

TheBluePill
3 years ago
Reply to  bluemonkey

You nailed it.

Mark
3 years ago

“And NATO has no intention of attacking Russia – that would be mad, and not since Bertrand Russell has anyone seriously proposed a first strike. “ Merely because in Rons’ opinion a NATO attack on Russia would be deterred by the MAD doctrine doesn’t mean Russia’s leaders can forget about ever worrying about an attack by NATO. MAD depends intimately upon the balances of forces and technology. The superpowers are constantly seeking ways to undermine the other side’s abilities to resist a first strike, and nobody can ever be certain that the other side won’t succeed in developing such technologies. In fact one of the main drivers for Russia’s path recently has been their specific concern that the US withdrawal from the ABM treaty and transparently dishonest pretence that missile defences in Europe are “aimed at Iran” reflected an intention to seek ways to enable a first strike on Russia. Putin pointed exactly this out in 2016 when he drew attention to the dangers of ending the ABM treaty and stated that Russia would in response develop exactly the missile technologies we have seen on display recently: “Russia In Danger From what I can see, we are in grave danger. We had conversation once… Read more »

Mark
3 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Then we come to Rons’ one-eyed presumption, mostly implicit, that there would never be an intention by NATO to launch an attack because, well, we are the good guys after all. But the reality is that there is a direct precedent as far as the Russians are concerned, which was the NATO aggression against Serbia. This was shocking to all who were not fully propagandised by the US sphere media into believing that the pretexts used justified the shameless illegality, brutality and outright contempt for sovereignty involved. So much for Rons’ actually moronic assertion that: “this war concerns the sovereignty and self-determination of a nation state: a core and immutable Western value”! That anybody could still try to make this claim after Serbia, Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan and Syria rather beggars belief! In any case, Russians believe that NATO could and would launch an attack on them, if NATO believed they could get away with it, because they watched NATO do exactly that to an old ally of Russia. As Solzhenitsyn stated: “I can name many reasons, but the most interesting ones are psychological, i.e. the clash of illusory hopes against reality. This happened both in Russia and in West. When… Read more »

JXB
JXB
3 years ago
Reply to  Mark

And NATO has no intention of attacking Russia – that would be mad, and not since Bertrand Russell has anyone seriously proposed a first strike. “

It is not a matter of intention, it is the scope for mistake, misunderstanding, accident, some single soul doing the wrong thing which can trigger a wider conflict. The more parties that get involved, the deeper their involvement, the more strident the rhetoric the more likely fortuitous cataclysm becomes.

Nobody saw WWI or WWII as likely until – suddenly there. The USA despite provoking Japan by cutting them off from oil and other resources which they needed as they industrialised, didn’t see war coming until Japanese planes were overhead sinking the US Pacific Fleet.

What is mad is getting involved in the first place, particularly with genius Biden in the White House and Chief Clown in Downing Street.

Proveritate
3 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Who cares what Putin says any more? He’s become a pathological liar. He spent 20 minutes answering questions from Aeroflot air hostesses, who have relations who could be fighting in Ukraine, and told them a pack of lies from beginning to end. He’s either deluded himself (i.e. really believes that stuff) or thinks others should believe his lies. Maybe he has told so many lies that he comes to believe them himself. Many somewhat autocratic leaders in history have found themselves in that position, and then they immerse themselves in sycophancy, which only makes the condition worse. Of course, there are plenty of lies being peddled in the West as well: I’ve been complaining about the endless propaganda since the 1980s. I used to have a certain admiration for the Russian perspective, even though I did not always agree with it, as being more realistic in some respects than the standard fare served up in the West (and especially USA). I greatly appreciated Russia’s support in Syria, though of course they were not doing that out of the kindness of their hearts. But over the last few years Putin and his cronies have lost it and entered a world of… Read more »

Aleajactaest
3 years ago
Reply to  Proveritate

Nice bloviation

peyrole
peyrole
3 years ago

Is the Daily Sceptic running low on ‘hits’ or something? I am trying to work out why it should run such an article knowing exactly what the overwhelming response would be. Is it saying that someone running usual MSM views is being sceptical about sceptical points of view?
Overall waste of time reading the article and the responses they have been aired so many times already.
Just one point. Finland and Sweden are very different countries, but neither are aggressors. Very very different to Ukraine. For that one simple point the main thrust of the article falls apart.

unpopular
3 years ago
Reply to  peyrole

It was guaranteed to draw out some enthusiastic pro-Russian invasion comments, directly supported by Russian propaganda on the justification.

Interestingly, quite a small number on the actual issue of Finland.

peyrole
peyrole
3 years ago
Reply to  unpopular

Finland is well aware of its position and its history.
Whether it is ‘in’ NATO or not will not change that one iota.
And Russia is well aware of that.
Neither country wants to change the border situation, which is reasonably fluid, to the advantage of both.

RedhotScot
3 years ago
Reply to  unpopular

enthusiastic pro-Russian invasion comments

It’s not an invasion moron, it’s a response to aggression. Russia did not start shooting first, Ukraine did.

Aleajactaest
3 years ago
Reply to  unpopular

And a nice turnout from the 77th from a load of “new” posters
..
. Like you

RedhotScot
3 years ago
Reply to  Aleajactaest

Must be Russian bots.

porgycorgy
porgycorgy
3 years ago

The truth lies very much within what Ian Rons is NOT saying, in this article. Where does one start to pick some of his strange arguments apart? Finland and Sweden have been left in no doubt that if the current insane pressure to push this proxy war to the limits of nuclear conflict continue, they will risk being targets for a nuclear response, whereas this was not previously the case. Russia is in no doubt that this is a proxy war. It is increasingly being said by American politicians and commentators too. The aim is to degrade Russia’s capabilities and to break up its sphere of influence and power, step by step – thus continuing the process seen in Chechnya, Georgia, Kazakstan and the EU / CIA abetted Maidan coup of 2014. It is silly to spend whole paragraphs on ‘how Sweden is not like Ukraine’ in order to twist the reasons for the invasion. Ignored also – Ukrainian nationalism is or could be an existential threat to Russia, with Ukraine within Nato. Many Ukrainian children are trained by nationalists to hate Russians. Russian prisoners of war have been tortured in gruesome ways – treated as ‘sub-human’ by people who… Read more »

JXB
JXB
3 years ago
Reply to  porgycorgy

Ian Rons is right on that one.’

So is Russia.

MTF
MTF
3 years ago
Reply to  porgycorgy

Ukrainian nationalism is or could be an existential threat to Russia, 

How could this happen? Do you think Ukraine might invade Russia or what?

RedhotScot
3 years ago
Reply to  MTF

As a member of NATO it could, simpleton.

Londo Mollari
3 years ago

But this is not an honestly titled article.

Russia’s response is not muted or sanguine. It has said it will be necessary to take retaliatory steps, “both of military and other nature” in a statement on the possible accession to NATO.

Moreover, the Russian Foreign Ministry says it views such a move as a breach of the 1947 Treaty of Paris, which established a state of peace between the two countries

Proveritate
3 years ago
Reply to  Londo Mollari

“Moreover, the Russian Foreign Ministry says it views such a move as a breach of the 1947 Treaty of Paris, which established a state of peace between the two countries”

Oh, yes, that required the stationing of Russian servicemen on Finnish soil, and imposed war reparations on Finland to pay for a war that Russia started as the aggressor.

State of peace, my foot.

Londo Mollari
3 years ago
Reply to  Proveritate

Why didn’t the US/UK object in 1947? Same reason they agreed to Austrian neutrality in 1955. The warmongers and the bribed weren’t running the show.

JXB
JXB
3 years ago

Suggests. Could. Might. Maybe. The weasel word parade meant to imply knowledge where ignorance reigns.

What would the point of Russia saying anything? Who would take any notice?

But it does serve to make Russia’s point about NATO expansionist plans along its borders, and reinforces the importance of Russia making a stand in Ukraine.

it is also extremely dangerous. Britain got dragged into every war in Europe because of ‘bilateral security agreements’, although curiously the ‘bilateral’ bit has never operated in Britain’s direction, it’s always been British citizens dying and suffering, and British treasure spent saving some other party in the local spats among each other that Continentals are so good at.

Take a look at how Britain got dragged into WWI via a convoluted trail of treaties over issues which had nothing do with British interests.

Write out 10 million times: Ukraine is none of our business.

Proveritate
3 years ago
Reply to  JXB

“Ukraine is none of our business.”

Your opinion, but not true.

Fingal
Fingal
3 years ago

First class article. At last, a view of Ukraine with a firm handle on reality.

Not enough attention has been given to the financial benefit side of the equation. Putin is possibly the wealthiest man in the world. You need whole countries to fund that kind of lifestyle.

ebygum
3 years ago
Reply to  Fingal

UK to send a FURTHER 1.3 billion pounds to Ukraine….
EU have already sent over 6 billion pounds to Ukraine, and more promised
the USA has sent over 13.6 billion and more promised…..
having read the Pandora Papers I suspect Zelenskyy will be able to add a great deal more to his property portfolio…LOL!

Julian
3 years ago
Reply to  Fingal

What’s the financial benefit to the British people? Where’s my share?

Londo Mollari
3 years ago
Reply to  Julian

It’s a big club and you ain’t in it.

RedhotScot
3 years ago
Reply to  Fingal

It’s as confused as your mental condition Fingers.

lordsnooty
3 years ago

of course it is a threat, NATO is hostile to Russia, that is it’s purpose.

ebygum
3 years ago
Reply to  lordsnooty

Liz Truss’s Mansion House speech at easter was considered by many of the MSM commentators as ‘confrontational’… it included….

We also reject the false choice between Euro-Atlantic security and Indo-Pacific security. In the modern world we need both.
We need a global NATO. By that I don’t mean extending the membership to those from other regions. I mean that NATO must have a global outlook, ready to tackle global threats.…..We are showing that economic access is no longer a given. It has to be earned.
Countries must play by the rules. And that includes China.

sounds like a threat to me…

David Beaton
David Beaton
3 years ago
Reply to  ebygum

“Truss” words fail!

Proveritate
3 years ago
Reply to  lordsnooty

Russia seriously considered joining NATO in the 1990s, so how does that NATO ‘purpose’ suit that?

Londo Mollari
3 years ago
Reply to  Proveritate

NATO rejecting Russian membership confirmed that it is a threat. Thank you for pointing this out.

unpopular
3 years ago
Reply to  lordsnooty

NATO is there to defend against Russia.

Obviously your rationale that the defender is to blame drives your opinion.

Londo Mollari
3 years ago
Reply to  unpopular

How many countries has Russia invaded since 1991?

None.

NATO countries on the other hand . . .

AxelStone
3 years ago

Muted response? You mean they havent been immediately invaded? Russia and Ukraine has been brewing for over a decade. This move by Finland and Sweden will similarly start something cooking. Btw https://unherd.com/thepost/putin-spokesman/

This article also mentions history but fails to reference how Finland particularly, since ww2, has purposefully balanced Russian and Western alignment in a very deliberate way. Just look at arms purchases, for one.

Star
3 years ago

“…in Servant of the People…”

…which was made in the Russian language.

dearieme
dearieme
3 years ago

“he follows an irredentist policy which is tied to, and in his mind justified by, the concept of ‘ethnic Russian’ identity”: reminiscent of the antics of the Irish Republic, then.