Government Petition Sites That Never Lead to Change are Part of the Managed Illusion of Democracy

There follows a guest post by Dr. David Seedhouse, Honorary Professor of Deliberative Practice at Aston University, who says the public are being fobbed off with a Government petition website that never brings about any change.

For the last year I have run a website promoting participatory democracy: Our Decision Too. We have a small group of loyal supporters on the site who debate topical issues, providing examples of how citizens might be involved in direct decision-making, were we to have the opportunity. One of our members, concerned about the one-eyed mainstream media framing of the Ukraine-Russian conflict, asked if we might create a petition on the Government petitions site. Her original suggestion was:

We request that the House of Commons holds a full, emergency debate on the Government’s policy on the war in Ukraine. The war in Ukraine is a complex issue, not a simple matter of Russia = bad, Ukraine and the West = good.

While any U.K. citizen can start a petition, only 80 characters are allowed in the title so we agreed this version: “Debate the history of Ukraine-Russian relations to inform U.K. policy.”

The petition was rejected on the ground that it was “not clear what the petition is asking the U.K. Government or Parliament to do”. Apparently, one of the rules is that petitions need to call for a specific action and it seems a debate doesn’t qualify. So we had another go: “Hold a referendum on sending deadly weapons to Ukraine.”

This time the petition was published, but it was an edited version, altered without permission to this: “Hold a referendum on sending deadly offensive weapons to Ukraine.”

I received no explanation and have no opportunity to challenge the Government’s amendment since its email address is a ‘no reply’ address.

Were I able to, I would tell the Government:

  1. Adding ‘offensive’ significantly changes the meaning of the petition, implying that ‘defensive’ weapons (whatever these are) are acceptable.
  2. My name is now associated with a statement that I didn’t write and do not believe. I believe the Government should not fund any weapons to Ukraine without the informed consent of U.K. citizens.

A little digging reveals a depressing picture. Almost 40,000 petitions have been posted, three quarters of which have been rejected outright. The House of Commons has debated 126 and responded to 658, though the comebacks are largely bland and non-committal. Sometimes the Government claims to be doing what the petition asks already or makes blatant value judgements without apology. For example, the petition “make parking at work permanently free for all NHS workers” prompted this retort:

Free hospital parking for NHS staff was a time-limited measure during the pandemic. It is right to end this now as we learn to live with the virus. Free parking for staff working overnight remains.

While it is a relief to learn that the pandemic is officially over, there is an unmistakable sense of a jaded schoolteacher reprimanding a recalcitrant pupil, “Not again Jamieson, how many times do I have to tell you I make the decisions around here?”

In fact none of the 40,000 petitions have succeeded in bringing about their desired change. As Amelia Tait reports in the New Statesman: “Despite accumulating millions of signatures and hundreds of thousands of shares, not a single one of these campaigns succeeded in obtaining its intended outcome.”

The Government argues that petitions have occasionally been a catalyst for policy change, but can point to just four rather slight examples. Even granting these, a success rate of 0.01% is hardly an example of productive public engagement.

So why bother with a Government petitions website at all? If you are going to prohibit most submissions from the get-go, fob off almost all that do pass scrutiny with a vacuous response, and even change the wording of some without consent, is it really worth the effort?

I can only guess why the Government continues to run its weird petitions site but suspect that it is partly self-delusion and partly deliberate subterfuge. By running a website open to any U.K. citizen the Government reinforces its own myth that it really does believe in democracy. At the same time, by minutely managing what is allowed, it runs no risk of any group of citizens actually exercising what should be a basic democratic right – asking the Government to represent the will of the people.

Of course, we know from the past two years of repeated assaults on our fundamental freedoms that the U.K. Government, like many others, has no interest whatsoever in including citizens in any part of its decision-making processes. We have a practically meaningless vote once every five years, and that’s about as far as it goes.

Yet there are readily achievable alternatives. For example, instead of ‘possibly’ debating petitions if they reach 100,000 signatures, it would be a relatively simple matter to guarantee a vote on any petition over a threshold of say three million:

Petition → Threshold passed → Informed debate in the House → Free vote → Law passed or rejected

This form of direct democracy, though less immediate than the Swiss version, would require a radical divestment of power by the handful of people who guard it so jealously. At the moment there seems little chance that this will happen. To those outside the self-congratulatory Government bubble, inclusive citizenship seems as far away as ever.

The bottom line is the Government doesn’t trust us. It claims to be delivering what we want and thinks of itself as a world-leading example of democracy while doing everything it can to prevent representative change, including micro-managing its petitions process.

If we are ever to have meaningful democracy, superficial non-solutions like token petition sites and antiquated first-past-the-post elections must be seen for what they are and replaced by systems where we can reflect, debate and make our own decisions without Government censorship.

David Seedhouse is creator of Our Decision Too and welcomes new members. The site is free of charge.

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113 Comments
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PhantomOfLiberty
PhantomOfLiberty
3 years ago

I sign a lot just to show concern and the numbers are not derisory but they are nuisance, achieve nothing and I wish people would stop starting them.

Alter Ego
Alter Ego
3 years ago

I agree, but I commend the good will and good heart of those who start them. I sign petitions because I like to support their civic-mindedness. it’s a form of applause for them.

David Beaton
David Beaton
3 years ago
Reply to  Alter Ego

“Displacement activity” the immoral cynics in power just laugh at them.

Emerald Fox
3 years ago

I sign a lot… and… achieve nothing.

iane
iane
3 years ago
Reply to  Emerald Fox

Yes, just as with voting, petitions would never be allowed if they changed anything.

For me, the petition issue just drives in how powerless we are to control the Nabobs who control our activities.

GroundhogDayAgain
3 years ago

We should also call out their use of YouGov to run self-fulfilling surveys that are then used to justify nasty decisions.

Milo
Milo
3 years ago

That is where ‘democracy’ (if it still is a thing) is really at these days.

Mark
3 years ago

I think everyone here probably got a bit fed up with signing endless petitions in the early covid panic days, which never produced any useful outcome as far as I’m aware.

So I tend to agree with the professor that these are just theatre and probably do more harm than good.

Failed the cost/benefit analysis.

The bottom line is the Government doesn’t trust us. 

This is evident also from the active ongoing moves to suppress freedom of speech.

As far as the ruling elites are concerned, they don’t just fear us, they despise and hate us, where “us” means both dissenters from their elitist ideologies and ordinary people in general.

TheyLiveAndWeLockdown
3 years ago
Reply to  Mark

We’ve had Brechit not Brexit.

After the uprising of the 17th of June
The Secretary of the Writers’ Union
Had leaflets distributed on the Stalinallee
Stating that the people
Had forfeited the confidence of the government
And could only win it back
By increased work quotas. Would it not in that case be simpler
for the government
To dissolve the people
And elect another?

John Dee
3 years ago
Reply to  Mark

The bottom line is the Government doesn’t trust us. 

Good job the feeling’s mutual.

Early Doubter
3 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Hence the derisory put-down many Sceptic commentators use on this site: “you should start an on-line petition“.

Boomer Bloke
3 years ago

It’s clearly a tactic. I’ve signed many government petitions. The number of responses from the government that are rejected by the petitions committee is very high. It’s almost as if the government or the civil service minions who write the responses didn’t want to address the issue raised by the petition. Hard to believe I know. Perhaps the civil servants in question are too busy doing other things while working from home. Like reading the Guardian or reviewing their pronouns, refusing to comply with government immigration policy, booking another covid vaccine booster, etc…

Trabant
3 years ago
Reply to  Boomer Bloke

Or not working towards selling me the flat they repossessed 3 years ago in lieu of an 8k government agency debt, the previously available 8k equity now been gobbled up by mortgage arrears leaving nothing to pay off the debt.

Nicholas Britton
3 years ago

The assertion in the title of this article is exactly right. Politicians really don’t care about public opinion at all. In fact, they hold us in contempt. The feeling is mutual.

Jon Garvey
3 years ago

Public opinion is something formed by government propaganda, which governments then sample by polling and are persuaded that they have discovered the will of the people. It’s surprising how often the government finds its own policies are so popular.

Sceptical Steve
Sceptical Steve
3 years ago
Reply to  Jon Garvey

Thanks to their wider ability to rig the debate, the government’s chosen policies are not just popular, but “essential” if we are to have any hope of saving the planet!

CovidiousAlbion
3 years ago
Reply to  Jon Garvey

Not just propaganda, they also have their “nudge” unit to brainwash us.

Basically, we enjoyed the democratic right to elect the government (from a limited, preselected, choice) to brainwash us from then on. When the state wants our opinion, it give it to us.

Mark
3 years ago

Coincidentally, just saw this tweet from Gary Sidley asking people to sign an open letter: Sign the open letter: End mask “requirement” in healthcare settings Given the lack of good scientific evidence to support the wearing of ‘face coverings’ to reduce viral transmission, together with the wide range of harms associated with them, there is no justification for healthcare services to persist with the ‘requirement’ for all staff, patients and visitors to wear a mask. Health professionals, scientists and patients/members of the public are invited to co-sign our open letter to the NHS Chief Executives below before Mon 23 May, when we will also be posting hard copies of this letter to the addressees. Please note, we will not list individual names of members of the public but provide a total count instead. Open Letter From Health Professionals, Scientists & Patients to the NHS Chief Executives: Amanda Pritchard, Chief Executive, NHS England Caroline Lamb, Chief Executive, NHS Scotland Judith Paget, Chief Executive, NHS Wales Robin Swann, Minister of Health, Northern Ireland cc UK Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, UK Prime Minister & First Ministers Of The Four Nations. We the undersigned British health professionals, scientists and patients,… Read more »

Milo
Milo
3 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Shame someone doesn’t do something similar re forced injections

brachiopod
3 years ago

I wonder how our democratic institutions are going to spin the Ukraine cutting off the third of Russian gas that transits through Lugansk from tomorrow.

Seems like those plucky Nazis have decided to up the stakes by screwing with the EU institutions they were hoping to join.

Solidarity would dictate that those EU countries still receiving Russian gas imports will support the EU countries that Ukraine are hoping to blackmail by threatening the destruction of their high dependency industries.

Maybe this is a last throw of the dice by those who pull Zelenskiy’s chain?

MTF
MTF
3 years ago
Reply to  brachiopod

Ukraine says it is because Russian attacks on infrastructure make the Sokhranivka route impractical and Russia can switch to Sudzha. Russia says this is not technically possible. As usual, it is almost impossible to know the truth.

peyrole
peyrole
3 years ago
Reply to  MTF

Depends on the definition of ‘impracticable’. If its English its ‘sensible’ which is definitely determined by the Ukrainians. If its US its ‘impracticable’ , impossible to do. determined by the Russians.
As the word used was the first not the second, which could easily be used, its clear that it is the Ukrainians that have made this decision.

MTF
MTF
3 years ago
Reply to  peyrole

I don’t think anyone disputes that the Ukrainians decided to stop gas flowing through Sokhranivka. The questions are:

  • is this justified given the conditions – who knows
  • it is really impossible to switch it to Sudzha – who knows
John Dee
3 years ago
Reply to  peyrole

Should that have read ‘impracticable’ and ‘impractical’?

peyrole
peyrole
3 years ago
Reply to  John Dee

Yes apologies for not proof reading my own posts!

David Beaton
David Beaton
3 years ago
Reply to  MTF

I think it is – the Ukrainians are part of and stooges of ‘the West’ – so they are obviously lying!

MTF
MTF
3 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

That is the most blatant argumentum ad hominem I have seen for a long time.

huxleypiggles
3 years ago
Reply to  brachiopod

Acting under CIA instructions.

David Beaton
David Beaton
3 years ago
Reply to  huxleypiggles

As ever!

David Beaton
David Beaton
3 years ago
Reply to  brachiopod

The New Lunatic Gender-confused Non-Germany will accept anything done to it that helps to abolish German national identity and collapse the economy – they know they deserve punishmentt for even existing!

Mark
3 years ago

implying that ‘defensive’ weapons (whatever these are) are acceptable

Any decent realist IR practitioner will confirm your view that there’s no such thing as “defensive weapons”.

Weaponry either enhances war-fighting capabilities, which means more dead enemies in the end, or it doesn’t, which means it isn’t really weaponry at all.

Much the same applies to “nonlethal military aid”, which is just a PR lie to cover up for helping one side kill the other side’s soldiers.

ImpObs
3 years ago
Reply to  Mark

I wouldn’t mind if all we sent were tazers 😉

Mark
3 years ago
Reply to  ImpObs

$13.6b in just tazers would be quite a sight, if that applied to the yanks as well..

Mark
3 years ago
Reply to  ImpObs

Though speaking of, our own regime apparatchiks aren’t slouching at throwing our tax proceeds into the firepit::

Whilst the UK taxpayer is hit with the rise in costs, Boris Johnson pledges a further £1.3 billion in aid including £300 million in military equipment that has already been agreed upon with Boris and the treasury.”

https://twitter.com/RebelNewsOnline/status/1524122951351783424

What’s a tazer? £50?

That’d be enough tazers for every Ukrainian regime thug to have one and a couple of spares, and enough to hand out to all the nazis for use when they are “sanitising” gypsy camps.

ImpObs
3 years ago
Reply to  Mark

<sharp intake of breath noise>

lorrinet
lorrinet
3 years ago
Reply to  ImpObs

Followed by a full-throated snarling growl.

Sceptical Steve
Sceptical Steve
3 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Surely that’s naive? Certain types of weaponry, e.g. artillery mounted in fixed fortifications, land mines etc. are unarguably defensive

ImpObs
3 years ago

I’ve met a few (civillian) amputees who would argue your point about land mines! Did you know that only 1/5th of all mines ever deployed since WWI have been found or accounted for? (source: My DEODS instructor) If I had my way all mines would be banned, land and sea.

also, how are you going to gaurentee the arty you sell is going to be used by the rules you set?

Mark
3 years ago

Defensive weapons of those kinds enable forces to be freed up to attack elsewhere, and make a country more likely to act aggressively.

In reality, no weapon system or military aid drops onto a blank slate and acts in isolation.

David Beaton
David Beaton
3 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Nuclear weapons are defensive weapons – if you have them no-one will attack you!

civilliberties
3 years ago

the problem is signing a petition on the gov site is purely psychological, i.e you sign a petition for an issue, think you have had your say and instigated change, walk off and nothing happens as a result even though you think you have done something. What the state really does not want is millions of people in lockstep and desire to make things happen in the real world rather than an e petition.

ImpObs
3 years ago
Reply to  civilliberties

Same as gassing off on here, or social media. It’s an outlet for outrage, if people thought they wern’t heard anywhere, it’d be torches & pitchforks, probably why there’s so much REEEEEE on social media, and here to some extent (looking at you tree et al)

RedhotScot
3 years ago
Reply to  ImpObs

Excellent comment. Now what’s your suggestion for improving things?

ImpObs
3 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

I havn’t got one, even if I did they would ignore it. e.g. Great Barrington, or the Harrogate Brexit paper, “flexit”, or a plethora of other burried and forgotten excellent ideas.

RedhotScot
3 years ago
Reply to  ImpObs

I havn’t got one, even if I did they would ignore it

So nothing changes then.

RedhotScot
3 years ago
Reply to  civilliberties

What the state really does not want is millions of people in lockstep and desire to make things happen in the real world rather than an e petition.

How do we make a start to make that happen then?

Emerald Fox
3 years ago
Reply to  civilliberties

“nothing happens as a result even though you think you have done something.”

But you have “tried to do something” … and that gives you the moral high ground to scream at others “Well, what have you done?!”

David Beaton
David Beaton
3 years ago
Reply to  Emerald Fox

Moral high ground very hard to find these days what with rising sea of lies levels ‘n that.

GimpbusterMSc
GimpbusterMSc
3 years ago

i’m starting to think we could learn a lot from Sri Lanka…

Kymtr17
Kymtr17
3 years ago
Reply to  GimpbusterMSc

Elucidate, please? It’s a lovely country, with tea, leopards, good food,and charming people, so I’m with you so far …

Hopeless - "TN,BN"
3 years ago

Almost every consultation activity, whether it be government petitions, local issues or whatever, has long been a waste of time and money. Whether the results are ignored, the terms corrupted or distorted, or result in lies, the outcome is zero. These are democracy window dressing for the (pace Raynor), scum that think they own us.

History tells us that, in absence of politicians who seek democratic consensus rather than domination and rulership, the only option available is some form of revolution, usually bloody. I favour a ceausecu remedy, as it’s the only way that the dung can be removed from these Augean stables.

The English have a long history of bloodily suppressed uprisings, and perhaps the embers are still glowing.

Lockdown Sceptic
3 years ago

Government Election and Referendums That Never Lead to Change are Part of the Managed Illusion of Democracy.
No Real Brexit

Stand in the Park Sundays from 10am – make friends & keep sane 

Wokingham 
Howard Palmer Gardens 
(Cockpit Path car park free on Sunday) 
Sturges Rd RG40 2HD   

Bracknell  
South Hill Park, Rear Lawn, RG12 7PA

Telegram http://t.me/astandintheparkbracknell

lutherkehrt@gmail.com
lutherkehrt@gmail.com
3 years ago

Thank you for your efforts David. Some sensible suggestions here.

RedhotScot
3 years ago

Of the 16 comments so far, not a single suggestion as to how to resolve the petition problem, or holding government to account generally.

We have the technology to secure every Bank account in the UK. Why can’t the government have an electronic, participatory system, in parliamentary debates?

ImpObs
3 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

It sounds alright in principle, as long as the code was OS and publicly auditable.

But code would be secret, fiddleable, and we’d have to accept a digital ID, a slippery slope of technocratic authoritarianism. No doubt that’s comming anyway with CBDC, or it wouldn’t be programmable!

RedhotScot
3 years ago
Reply to  ImpObs

Good start, so what else would you suggest?

No point in knocking a suggestion over when you can’t propose something yourself. Nor does it need to be grand.

ImpObs
3 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

We can play “what I’d do if I were PM” all night, but it’s pointless, they would ignore any idea that takes away even a smidgen of their power.

RedhotScot
3 years ago
Reply to  ImpObs

Frankly, it’s got nothing to do with the PM. It’s got everything to do with elected officials, your MP. Is he/she held to account for the mistakes he/she makes? Is he/she under a performance review? Does he/she engage you in discussion over the most important issue humanity has ever faced – climate change? My MP has refused to communicate with me over one reasonable letter I sent him on the subject. Why is that allowed? Why do so many of these officials have second jobs and are allowed to invest in businesses whilst obviously having an inside track on what government decisions are made on future business decisions? There are numerous other questions we should be asking of this ancient and unreformed electoral system like, who was in charge of pandemic planning? Was there even one and was it abandoned? Who is in charge of a civilian nuclear assault plan if we’re attacked? Who is in charge of a food shortage plan, and where is it? What about a financial disaster plan, and when was it last fully reviewed? Is there even a natural disaster plan, and shouldn’t we all know what it is, where it is and who is… Read more »

David Beaton
David Beaton
3 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

‘Of the 16 comments so far, not a single suggestion as to how to resolve the petition problem, or holding government to account generally.’

Is this how the White Rose stared off?

Oh and what “Parliamentary debates” are these?

The ones about beer and cake which get a full house – or the attempt by Sir Christopher Chope to have blatantly ignored ‘vaccine’ deaths and severe injuries taken seriously by a scornful, smirking Speaker before being trashed and which attract ZERO MPs?

lorrinet
lorrinet
3 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

The sight of that virtually empty chamber was something we should make them aware that we’ll never forget.

A Y M
3 years ago

Our system only worked pretty well while the interests of the country were generally patriotically sought by the politicians in power. Now their interests are on the global stage with token gestures towards the populace while corruption and is on a scale never seen since feudalism.

Now, in our Information Age, the masses can, if the dig a little, see the rot. To combat this they have decided to control information, create a turnkey full spectrum control grid and prevent the growing swathes of red pilled masses from outright revolt.

Voting won’t save us. They are all sucking at the giant rotten teet of state. Not to do so or wish to would prevent access to the halls of power by the rest of Animal Farm’s pigs.

Seeing as the first phase worked so well in the fake pandemic, it doesn’t bode well for us in the coming manufactured crises of food and energy shortages.

The state has lost its need for existence, so it needs to find a way to make us need the system. For them, it’s a matter of survival that we become slaves to the state.

RedhotScot
3 years ago
Reply to  A Y M

To combat this they have decided to control information, create a turnkey full spectrum control grid and prevent the growing swathes of red pilled masses from outright revolt. They have always concealed their motives behind the concept of “you little people don’t have all the information to hand to involve yourselves in matters of state”. Well, we wouldn’t would we, because we are told much of it is a matter of national security. Whether it is or not is moot, but they will never say that, because “it’s a matter of national security”……….. Mushrooms……. The HoC and HoL are the Gentleman’s clubs, or even the Masons where, what went on out of sight, stayed out of sight. Each of them sworn to secrecy to uphold the continuance of the system, even if that means lying for your worst enemy. It’s notable that they all share the same dining facilities and the same drinking dens e.g. the Strangers Bar, where they undoubtedly mingle and chat amongst themselves. They certainly don’t sit across the room glaring at each other. When they say “it’s just politics” they mean it, whilst slapping each other on the back and toasting each other successes, or commiserating… Read more »

RedhotScot
3 years ago

One question is, why do we even need a government petition website when we have elected MP’s who should be conveying important concerns of their constituents directly into the HoC?

Surely we should be reforming our process of representation if the common man’s concerns are not getting through?

I would also say that many of the petitions I have seen raised on the petition website are just juvenile.

RW
RW
3 years ago

The first-past-the-post system is based on the assumption that defined groups of people each elect a representative which is then sent to an assembly of representatives on behalf of them. That’s a simple concept easily understood by people and it creates a fairly strong bond between voters and their representatives. Ultimatively, people don’t become MPs because they belong to a certain party but because the majority of a specific set of people elected them as their representative. That’s not so bad compared to something like the German system where MPs are selected by parties they’re supposed to represent and input of voters is restricted to chosing their preferred party. Especially, when one also considers how hideously complicated the election system used in this case is and that presumably only a few people are aware of all its implications and corner cases. Eg, in general, a party which didn’t get at least 5% of the actually cast votes will be excluded from parliament. This routinely leads to 10% – 15% of the votes simply falling through the cracks, usually votes cast for parties the political establishment seriously dislikes. But these votes are not effect free because they raise the bar for… Read more »

ImpObs
3 years ago
Reply to  RW

Effectively, all voters who voted for parties which didn’t make it
unwilling cooperated in making it more difficult for their preferred
party to get into parliament.

Eh? people vote for other parties than their preferred party and that makes it difficult for their preferred party?

stronk logic!

RW
RW
3 years ago
Reply to  ImpObs

People who voted for any party which didn’t pass the 5% hurdle all unwillingly collaborated in making that happen: There votes jointly served to raise the 5% bar to a point where none of the parties they voted for could pass it anymore.

ImpObs
3 years ago
Reply to  RW

No sorry, still not making any sense. “non of the parties they voted for”

You get 1 vote.

RW
RW
3 years ago
Reply to  ImpObs

This makes perfect sense because that’s how it happens to be. Let’s assume 80 people vote. This means 5% of the votes which were cast would be 4 votes, ie, any party with 4 or more votes would go into parliament. Now, let’s assume another 20 people vote in 5 groups of 4, with 5 parties no one voted for so far getting 4 votes each. As the total number of votes is now 100, 5% of that would be 5 votes, hence, all parties with 4 votes get eliminated as well.

NB: I’ll ignore any future attempts an unintentional or intentional misinterpretation of anything I wrote so far.

John Dee
3 years ago
Reply to  RW

But, how, as they voted, were they supposed to know that their choice wouldn’t make the 5% barrier?
Macron first came to power on the back of a newly-minted party.

John Dee
3 years ago
Reply to  ImpObs

I didn’t even understand the sentence you quoted. Should ‘unwilling’ have been ‘unwillingly’?

RedhotScot
3 years ago
Reply to  RW

A great example of what we shouldn’t do, but what should we do?

John Dee
3 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

If that bit weren’t so tricky, we’d all have the answer.

RedhotScot
3 years ago
Reply to  John Dee

There are no ‘answers’. Life is ever evolving, what’s right today might not be right tomorrow. All we can do is provide suggestions. Lots of small suggestions build a plan.

A passerby
A passerby
3 years ago

Can’t comment on the half a dozen or so I’ve signed recently as I’ve not checked the outcomes but

“Debate the history of Ukraine-Russian relations to inform U.K. policy.”

does seem rather vague to me.

ImpObs
3 years ago

and partly deliberate subterfuge.

DS Etiquette frowns on conspiracy theories, the done thing is to blame it all on bumbling Bozza, ineptitude, and incompetence, though pointing out “fibbing” sometimes makes final copy 😉

but seriously, it’s pretty obvious governments of all stripes hold the electorate in contempt. If voting made any difference, they wouldn’t let us do it (Twain)

HelenaHancart
HelenaHancart
3 years ago

Petitions don’t change anything because if they did we wouldn’t be allowed to have them. It’s all part of their evil game, like “being allowed” to have Pied Piper marches and a lot of these protest groups, to lead you round in circles, never actually achieving anything, usually organised by agents of the state to ensure everyone is kept happy and feeling like theyve “done something”, and to steer people into the outcomes THEY want! We are all being played like never before. We have to be kept as subdued as much as the normies. But one thing it does do is give an idea of strength of opinion, and we have to remain ultra vigilant to their tactics, and keep on doing what we need to do to keep pushing back.

RedhotScot
3 years ago
Reply to  HelenaHancart

OK. So how do we change things for the better? No use whinging if you have nothing to move forward with.

ImpObs
3 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

good luck moving forward with any cunning plan, that’s the whole point being made here! 🙂

Point being, you could invent the “perfect system” and they wouldn’t touch it with a barge pole!

RedhotScot
3 years ago
Reply to  ImpObs

No need for a cunning plan. Simply a movement refusing to participate in the existing system would be a start.

Vaxtastic
3 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

I would argue a local secession has the best chance. Lead by example. Small enough you can reach everyone, but large enough to support itself. Our ancient petty kingdoms fit the bill; Strathclyde, Northumbria etc.

Nationwide reforms cannot easily succeed. They own national media. But they don’t own local media. That is one factor.

If it were me I’d love to demonstrate to people how Russia can survive with only a 14% income tax and minimal regulations, despite being supposedly bereft of freedom. That is, abolishing all sales taxes and business taxes in your local area would free up a lot of cash for ordinary people. It would also demonstrate how we are being fleeced by big government.

That would be my goal. Localism. Then it doesn’t matter if Brighton want to promote gaydom or Manchester wants to heavily tax pensions. It is the one size fits all stuff that is killing us.

RedhotScot
3 years ago
Reply to  Vaxtastic

Precisely.

We should all be considering how to improve our electoral system. For too many years MP’s have busied themselves, making themselves busy. But no one reviews their performance. No one monitors the successes or failures. If they do something wrong the first people they answer to is their peers in the HoC instead of their voters.

Lots more options and suggestions needed, not just whining about how bad things are.

ImpObs
3 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

I try not to already!

Most people are politicly sound asleepwalking, especially the hardliners effectively living in a limited hangout; they even think their vote counts!

Vaxtastic
3 years ago
Reply to  ImpObs

Point being, you could invent the “perfect system” and they wouldn’t touch it with a barge pole!

It follows that any system must not involve”them”. The whole point of freedom is you don’t need permission for anything. That is our tradition. We have rules against negatives only.

Not saying it is easy, but a base assumption we must somehow convince the psychopaths destroying us to go along with it won’t work.

ImpObs
3 years ago
Reply to  Vaxtastic

It’s a fair point, Corbett, Fitts etc. have explored this, an alternative system rather than challenge the current system.

It reminds me of the “Transition Towns” thing ~20yrs ago, I think some of them are still going, Totnes, Brighton, Bristol and a few more had LETS systems, but it was way before it’s time for most people.

I was inspired at the time, I even opened up a 14 acre permaculture site, first 2 yrs went great, then narcisisstic people problems pretty much kyboshed it, I got so stressed my wife threatened to leave me unless I sold the land to free up the capital to renovate our building project <shrug> I ain’t got the mental energy to lead another one tbh, I’m digging in prepper style with a wider network of like minded people, we won’t be the slowest campers when the Bear comes!

RedhotScot
3 years ago
Reply to  ImpObs

Corbett, Fitts etc. have explored this, an alternative system rather than challenge the current system.

Usual socialist bollox. You don’t tear down a system only to build it into some sort of utopian dream, you fix what doesn’t work in a potentially promising system.

We have a promising system, it’s just been badly neglected and is now run by the very people who shouldn’t be running it.

ImpObs
3 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

Usual socialist bollox

Corbett & Fitts socialists? LOL No. Corbett is Anarchist (in the true sense)/libertarian; Fitts seems very conservative (in the UK sense)

It’s not about “tearing down” anything, it’s about self reliance, building local networks that can work outside the system. Doesn’t look “utopian” to me, looks like bloody hard work.

It’s as if you don’t really any idea what they’re really saying, but label it “socialist bollox” because it’s easier than looking at what they’re saying.

RedhotScot
3 years ago
Reply to  Vaxtastic

100%!!

Star
3 years ago

In other news, the Pope is Catholic.

David Beaton
David Beaton
3 years ago
Reply to  Star

But then he isn’t, is he?

snoozle
snoozle
3 years ago

A very real problem with their website also is that it makes absolutely no attempt to validate whether the people who sign their petitions are humans, are citizens, are of voting age, haven’t signed before, etc. They only seem to require that each signature is associated with a unique e-mail address.
Using the old UNIX convention of ignoring everything after the +, it would be trivial for me to sign one of their petitions more than once per citizen of the UK in a few days with a simple set of scripts.
If one wants to use the petitions to properly feed into the democratic process, then one must ensure that the signatures are meaningful, that they come from people who are entitled to vote and they have not been fraudulently obtained.

Hawkins_94
Hawkins_94
3 years ago

With respect, if online petitions had any meaning they would be hijacked by minority groups to push unrepresentative policies through. We’ve got that problem bad enough ad it is. Most normal people show up at elections but don’t actively engage in politics apart from that.

Yes, they’re a joke, but pretending petitions had some sort of authority would make us a better society seems naive to me.

Rogerborg
3 years ago

Well, of course. Like peaceful protests, they’re just safety valves to stop the pressure building to the point where anyone does anything.

Emerald Fox
3 years ago
Reply to  Rogerborg

It’s scary ‘doing something’ – you could end up getting arrested or being sent to prison.

Emerald Fox
3 years ago

“In fact none of the 40,000 petitions have succeeded in bringing about their desired change.”

Looks like I was right, then!
Still, some people like to believe they got some virtue-signalling points for signing petitions.
“I signed it!”
“So did I!”
“Me too!”
“Baaaaaa!”

7941MHKB
7941MHKB
3 years ago

Interesting that neither Dr.Seedhouse, nor any commenters seem to mention the Climate Assembly or various other Citizens’ Panels. This might be strange, as Our Beloved Leaders set these up, at considerable expense and some fanfares of publicity to show how important they consider “Public Opinion” to be. Of course, even a bright six year old could (and perhaps did) point out that a selection (that they carefully made) of “applicants” to be on the panel (thus giving them many “activists” to choose from), who were then gathered together (at public expense) and bombarded by activist agit-prop (previously selected and annointed as The Settled Science), would only, could only, propose and agree on things that absolutely reinforced our Beloved Leaders’ decisions. So, on balance, it is perhaps encouraging that neither Dr. Seedhouse nor any of the commenters thought that this cynical and despicable propaganda manoeuvre worth mentioning. We even got some of our Beloved Leaders commenting in the House or on the Telly that the Panel’s or Assembly’s views would have to be respected and adopted. I suppose that it was thought a cunning wheeze, so that if any policy they had dreamed up went tits up, more obviously and more… Read more »

Lockdown Sceptic
3 years ago

Don’t trust Priti Patel. This Fake Conservative Government is trying to destroy our freedoms daily, Chinese Communist Party style. ISPs and Government Quangos are currently trying to shut down the conservative Woman website
You must wake up to the fact that ISP are now trying to shut down websites that don’ t fit the narrative. The Online Safety Bill is passing through Parliament at the moment and threatens to be even more draconian. It will give the British Government further powers to shut down free speech and debate.

.
“As censoring of TCW worsens, who is trying to gag us?
https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/as-censoring-of-tcw-worsens-who-is-trying-to-gag-us/
TCW”
***

Stand in the Park Sundays 10.30 -11.30am
make friends & keep sane from the globalist propaganda
Wokingham
Howard Palmer Gardens Sturges Rd RG40 2HD

Grahamb
3 years ago

Interesting article. I was recently in Norway and the Nobel Peace exhibition had an index of world wide democracies and the U.K. was well outside the top 10, which initially was a surprise to me but thinking about it, sounds about right

MikeHaseler
3 years ago

The aim of government “consultations” are to give the illusion of listening and soak up the efforts of the opposition on the entirely pointless and loaded “questions” whilst they just get on with what they were always going to do.

The aim of an “inquiry” is to soak up the efforts of the opposition, into a meaningless exercise which at best will prevent prosecutions and kick the subject so far into the future that everyone forgets what it was about.

Hoppy Uniatz
Hoppy Uniatz
3 years ago

The rejected petitions site was always good for cheering one up. My personal favourite was “Reclassify Cheese as a vegetable.”