Contested Social Issues Should be Decided by Democratic Politics, Not Unaccountable Judges

There follows a guest post by James Allan, Garrick Professor of Law at the University of Queensland, Australia, who says that while he supports abortion rights, Roe v Wade was a poor legal decision and the U.S. Supreme Court would be right to take the matter away from unelected judges and return it to the democratic process.

To read the newspapers in the U.K. and Australia, even the conservative newspapers, one would think the U.S. Supreme Court’s leaked opinion was ending abortion in America completely. (And as a digression, in the U.S. they say that judges write ‘opinions’ whereas in Britain and the Westminster world we call them ‘judgments’. In my view the Americans have the terminology right.) I suppose that this is in part a deliberate ploy by many in the press. Here’s the reality.

In 1973, the U.S. Supreme Court in Roe v Wade removed the issue of abortion from the democratic process. At the time, and many will find this hard to believe in today’s hyper-partisan world, some three-quarters of constitutional law professors thought this was a very weak and implausible decision. I would say it’s one of the worst bits of legal reasoning you’ll ever read. Let’s be blunt. The judges made it up. One of the dissenters in the Roe case, Justice White, described the majority’s decision as “the exercise of raw judicial power”.

Since then Britain, Australia, New Zealand and the majority of democratic Europe have sorted out abortion through the elected legislature. Everyone counts the same and you vote for elected MPs who negotiate and reach a compromise; generally that compromise has been along the lines that abortions are legal till the last trimester or some such outcome. And because that outcome was decided through a legitimate political process, and because nothing is ever completely off the democratic table, almost all the heat in the abortion debate was dissipated.

But not in the U.S. When judges use an amorphous rights provision (and in Roe they couldn’t even point to an explicit one) with the most implausible and activist interpretive approach imaginable, those on the losing side feel aggrieved, rightly aggrieved. And the issue simply will not go away. Why should a committee of unelected ex-lawyer judges make this call, judges who as it happens decide disputes amongst themselves by a majoritarian vote of 5 beats 4 regardless of the quality of reasoning? And so for fifty years abortion has never left the political agenda in the U.S. It led to upwards of a quarter of voters in recent elections telling pollsters that the most important reason for voting for a particular presidential candidate is what sort of Supreme Court Justice he or she would appoint. Not surprising is it, when that is the only recourse you have to reverse a big social policy call with which you disagree?

So on to yesterday’s leaked opinion of Justice Alito in the Dobbs case, supposedly signed-off on by four other Justices, that the U.S. Supreme Court would overturn Roe.  This was a draft opinion and it contained such gems as that “Roe was egregiously wrong from the start”.  Many press reports are implying or intimating that such a decision would end abortions in the U.S. This is a total nonsense. What Dobbs would do is simple. It would return the issue of abortion to the elected branches of government to resolve (as in Britain, Australia etc.).  In a federal system such as the U.S. this would mean it would be resolved at the state level. The New York Times, no friend to conservatives and never unhappy with social policymaking by the courts, yesterday estimated 86% of current abortions would go ahead were this decision finalised. Why? Because most US States would legislate to allow abortions. You know, the way it happened here in Britain. (And as an aside, my view is that the New York Times takes the smallest plausible number; it would in fact be over 90% of present abortions going ahead when the issue is put back in the democratic realm.) New York would. California would. Word is that Oregon is planning to cater to abortion-seekers from other States.

Would every single U.S. state legislate for abortion entitlements? No. But what’s the grievance there? I, personally, would vote for abortion entitlements up to the last trimester. But I have spent a career arguing against over-powerful judges and think that the remedy here is not to call for ‘Philosopher King’ unelected judges to decide these such matters from on high. No. It is rather to work on Saturdays for political parties who aim to convince your fellow citizens that you are right. And then legislate accordingly. Life in a juristocracy is nowhere near as pleasant as you might imagine. Just ponder what it’s like to be on the losing side of some issue – gun control, say, or same-sex marriage, or anything where some ex-lawyers have declared, 5-4, that some understanding of theirs about some supposed transcendent right you may or may agree with, means that they will take this issue you care deeply about off the democratic table forever. Or at least until some latter-day judges put it back on the table.

Well, that is what the U.S. Supreme Court looks likely to do. It’s a good thing, not a bad thing. Sure, I know that some are saying that a bunch of Catholic judges are driving this. And it is an undoubted oddity that until a couple of years ago a country like the U.S., which is about two-thirds Protestant, had six Catholics and three Jews on its top court. (Where, you might wonder, is ‘diversity’ when it’s not to do with reproductive organs and skin pigmentation?) Now I come from a long-line of Scots-Canadian Calvinists with atheist parents, like me. The Catholic critique is a total red-herring. Any legislature or any U.S. state can decide this matter as its voters prefer. If you dislike that sort of world I’m afraid you simply dislike democracy. Remember Churchill’s words, that “democracy is the worst form of government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time”.

As for the leak of this draft decision, it is pretty clearly aimed at intimidating one of the judges in the majority into shifting sides. It has destroyed the general trust that exists among those who work in any top court. The other possible hope is that this will fire up President Biden to try to remove the filibuster in the Senate and pack the top court. Neither outcome is likely. No judge in the majority can now afford to switch sides. Even Chief Justice Roberts, whose allegiance was unknown in this case, may well feel he now has to vote with the majority to make it 6-3 rather than 5-4.

At any rate, don’t believe the hysterical hyperventilating. This decision does not end abortion in the U.S. Nor will it hurt the Republicans in my view. All the swing states will be ones where abortion is available. And the hardline anti-abortion States (probably all in the South) already vote Republican by large amounts.

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Jabby Mcstiff
Jabby Mcstiff
4 years ago

It’s a bit much though what they are proposing these days. The idea that consciousness, or rather self-consciousness is an indication of inclusion in the human race. You could argue that the NPC’s ought to be wiped out. We don’t work like that. We accept humanity warts and all with all its fuck ups and inadequacies. This is what makes life beautiful.

Matt Dalby
Matt Dalby
4 years ago
Reply to  Jabby Mcstiff

“We accept humanity warts and all”. We also need to accept democracy warts and all i.e. even if our democratic system is imperfect and sometimes delivers an outcome we don’t personally agree with it’s still better than governance by “experts” whether they’re top judges or scientific advisers.

iane
iane
4 years ago
Reply to  Matt Dalby

‘our democratic system’ – ha ha ha: best joke I’ve heard for a while!

Mark
4 years ago

don’t believe the hysterical hyperventilating

Tucker Carlson: “We are watching government by tantrum”

Leaving it to the states does seem self-evidently the correct position, as far as a common sense interpretation of the US constitution is concerned.

The fact that Roe v Wade was law in the US for half a century tells you pretty much which side has been dominant, and able to impose its misrule during that period. Clue:it’s the side that openly nominates affirmative action thickos like Sotomayor and Kagan to the highest court in the US.

Julian
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

The gay marriage decision was a similar travesty – the triumph of politics over law. Scalia’s dissent was a peach. In the oral arguments, he asked the lawyers appearing in favour of gay marriage to specify at what point in time it became unconstitutional to limit marriage to that between a man and a woman, given that at the time the constitution was adopted, every state limited it in that way. Of course they were unable to give a sensible answer.

MrTea
MrTea
4 years ago
Reply to  Julian

Gays should have been offered a marriage equivalemt but with a different name.
It should have been called garriage instead of marriage to recognise that two whoopsies bumming each other is not the same as normal healthy heterosexual activity.
So two chutney ferrets that want to pretend to be normal could have got garried.
The laws should have stipulated that they had a right to get garried in a Las Vegas Elvis chapel but nowhere else, just to make clear that the whole thing was a fu[king joke.

Mike Oxlong
4 years ago
Reply to  MrTea

Being an uphill gardener is in fashion nowadays, as is pillow-biter marriage. However, they are going to look pretty silly in a few years time when they’re being tossed off (though not in a nice way) tall buildings when our ME illegal immigrants gain the upper hand in the demographic stakes.

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  Mike Oxlong

Grow up you cretin. This isn’t a thread about your personal, nasty bigotry.

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  MrTea

…..two whoopsies bumming each other is not the same as normal healthy heterosexual activity.

What, or who says homosexuality is wrong?

The bible, which has probably never been read by people who describe homosexuals as “chutney ferrets”.

Pathetic.

Mike Oxlong
4 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

The Bible has plenty to say about homosexuality being a sin. I’ve never heard ‘chutney ferrets’ before. Presume it’s from Roger’s Profanissaurus.
I’ve nothing against homosexuals, really. My b-in-law is one. Though he’s just got into trouble at customs – he had a false bottom in his suitcase.

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  Mike Oxlong

The bible is a book. It is not law and is arguably complete fiction.

I’ve never heard ‘chutney ferrets’ before. 

Self evident that you don’t read other post’s on here, to attracted by the sound of your own voice.

Hugh
Hugh
4 years ago
Reply to  Julian

And of course the clue to marriage is in the name, husband. Husbandry, as those who know their farming will tell you, is about being fruitful. And by the way, if this redefinition of marriage has led to children being deprived of a mother and a father, it would appear to be another example of removing one group’s rights to give a “right” to another group.

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  Julian

Comparing gay marriage to abortion is simply ridiculous.

The concept of gay relationships is a biblical construct, the views of god.

Killing a sentient child in the womb is a physical action against another living human being. There is no comparison.

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

Wow!

A downvote for objecting to killing a child.

Hugh
Hugh
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

As I understand, the American Civil War was precisely about this sort of government overreach, and I imagine that in 1973, there would have been Southern old-timers saying, see how it’s turned out.

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  Hugh

As I understand, the American Civil War was precisely about this sort of government overreach

100%

Like we don’t have government interfering in our lives enough, they deem it their job to decide when a child should be aborted.

We note all those making the decisions have never been aborted.

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Leaving it to the states does seem self-evidently the correct position, as far as a common sense interpretation of the US constitution is concerned.

Wouldn’t keeping law and politics out the equation be a far more sensible approach. Keep it to a medical and ethical decision. The moment it is believed a child is sentient in the womb is the moment it has a say in the matter, which can’t be expressed until it’s born and, probably, a grown adult.

simonov
simonov
4 years ago

Glenn Greenwald, who is actually a civil rights attorney, made similar points on Substack. The entire media hysteria about all this is exactly the opposite of what they claim they want.

It is also self evident that judges should not decide and should not have to decide tricky questions like when a zygote becomes a fetus becomes a baby. The best way to decide this is by electoral consensus, and since these questions are cultural, the best places to decide them are in the fifty states’ legislatures.

I don’t have strong feelings about abortion itself, but Roe vs Wade was a bad ruling, and if the SCOTUS doesn’t submit to the online (and in person) lynch mob, they have a chance to correct it.

Paul B
4 years ago
Reply to  simonov

I didn’t have a strong position until recently, the way I came to a decision was to understand the process in graphic detail.

As a side note, people telling me I should stay out of it because I’m not a women cemented that position, someone has to advocate for the babies, 50% of which are male, and as a male, were I to get someone pregnant (were WE to conceive) I’d feel slightly aggrieved to potentially not have any say in the decision what-so-ever.

simonov
simonov
4 years ago
Reply to  Paul B

Eh, I don’t even know what a woman is.

Paul B
4 years ago
Reply to  simonov

I’m not sure how they perform an abortion during a ‘c*ck birth’ I’ll admit.

MrTea
MrTea
4 years ago
Reply to  Paul B

Just identify as a woman for the purposes of having this discussion.

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  simonov

judges should not decide and should not have to decide tricky questions like when a zygote becomes a fetus becomes a baby.

I don’t understand how a democratic decision on that subject is and more reliable than a court of law.

The question, to my mind is, when is a child sentient. At which point it surely has a say in the matter. It can only express its opinion following birth.

It amuses me that none of the folks having these highbrow, philosophical discussions have never experienced being aborted.

Hugh
Hugh
4 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

What troubles me is when it seems to boil down to a question of what is a proper child, or by extension, what is a proper human. This may be an interesting discussion to have on some topics (eg a proper country etc.) but it is absolutely inappropriate when a human life is at stake; where some ill defined notion of what constitutes an “actual human person” is used to push for the killing of people for any reason up to birth (and, as I noted, beyond birth for some campaigners).

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  Hugh

We seem to think along the same lines most of the time. Predictable as we both infest this blog with our opinions.

What irritates me though, is that you descend to verbose, pseudo intellectual nonsense when you have some good points to make, which just get lost.

Just say what you mean.

stewart
4 years ago
Reply to  simonov

The best way to decide when a foetus becomes a baby is via a democratic majority?

Surely this is.a matter of fact not preference or opinion, so not really something to be determined by plebiscite, surely.

And if a clear scientific answer can’t be reached, then there should be no legislation and it should be left to individuals to make their own decision.

Why can’t there just be no law on the matter. Does every single nook and cranny of our lives need to be legislated and regulated?

rtj1211
rtj1211
4 years ago
Reply to  simonov

Given that politicians are in the vast majority bought creatures, bought by wealthy lobbyists, the questions of the greatest societal gravity should be decided by direct referendum.

Jabby Mcstiff
Jabby Mcstiff
4 years ago

I don’t think anyone really cares in this country. The right of the unborn disappeared at about the same time as Bohemia disappeared. I’m sure it is a boutique issue for some people but the reality on the ground in England is that foetuses are an encumbrance at best and food at worst.

Hugh
Hugh
4 years ago
Reply to  Jabby Mcstiff

And you know what they say about people who eat babies for breakfast…

Worth repeating, I think, journalist Charles Moore’s comments about his experience on The Moral Maze with the dreadful Ann Furedi (of the “British Pregnancy Advisory Service”). He wrote that he asked her, if a mother suddenly decided that she couldn’t stand the sight of her new born baby, should she be allowed to have it killed? And she replied in the affirmative. We should bear in mind that some people campaigning against the unborn such as her have some pretty unrepresentative (and pretty unsavoury) views. Yes, I seem to remember that eugenicist Bill Gates’s parent were involved in the issue too…

Jabby Mcstiff
Jabby Mcstiff
4 years ago

It is their business and not yours. Okay we all speak the same language but there are times when it is best to keep your mouth shut.

Paul B
4 years ago
Reply to  Jabby Mcstiff

Judges and elected politicians?

Rogerborg
4 years ago
Reply to  Jabby Mcstiff

Who is “they”?

Does “they” include women past fertility?

Does “they” include women who cannot conceive?

Does “they” include women with penises?

MrTea
MrTea
4 years ago

He is an abortion remoaner.

MrTea
MrTea
4 years ago

I support a womans right to have an abortion just as long as that woman has a co[k and balls.

RedhotScot
4 years ago

Since when has the termination of a child’s life morally been the domain of either courts or politics? Politically speaking, surely a child has a voice in a democratic society. Just when does a ‘cluster of cells’ become a sentient being? And from a courts perspective, what possible legal means, other than from a medical perspective, have they to make a judgement on when a child’s life can or cannot be terminated? There is all sorts of supposed moral issues surrounding abortion however, what are the moral considerations of a child’s opinion worth? I can perfectly understand the argument of a rape victim demanding the right to abortion, but only immediately following the rape. If the child is carried for any meaningful period of time before the mother makes up her mind then, sorry, I’m afraid that’s tough luck unless there are circumstances like being kidnapped for weeks or months by the rapist. Medical conditions, like a threat to the mothers life if she goes full term? Surely that’s between the mother, her doctor and her partner, assuming there is one. Abortions are necessary, but it’s a medical issue as far as I’m concerned, and revolve around the point in… Read more »

simonov
simonov
4 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

Since when has the termination of a child’s life morally been the domain of either courts or politics?

Since you ask, for over a thousand years.

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  simonov

I probably didn’t frame that question well.

Why has the termination of a child’s life morally been the domain of either courts or politics?

Might be a better way to express it.

Rogerborg
4 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

Trouble is, nobody really wants it just for rape (and/or incest) . Steven Crowder reveals this on a couple of his “Change My Mind” public debates, where the conversation inevitably goes something like.

Crowder: “Baby murder should be completely prohibited.”
Baby murderer: “Ah hah, but what about for rape and incest?”
Crowder: “OK, then let’s allow it just for rape and incest. Good enough for you?”
Baby murderer: “Well, no, that’s not the point, it’s about a woman’s right to choose.”

It’s always a canard.

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  Rogerborg

I agree.

Which brings me back to my point that ‘debate’ on the matter is futile. It should be a medically derived decision predicated on when sentient life begins with only a few qualifications around danger to the mother.

Does the mother have a choice in the matter? Of course she does, at the point of conception.

ebygum
4 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

…the thing is men can engage in promiscuity with NO problems EVER… so I have a problem with what you are saying because the results of promiscuity..in this instance…only ever impact the WOMAN…TWO people engage in the promiscuity, you seem to be be forgetting one of them gets to walk away Scott free…..

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  ebygum

What you’re saying then, is, our laws on paternal responsibilities are wrong.

Fair enough, but don’t kill children because society can’t get its moral act together.

Two people engage in promiscuity, only one bears the ultimate cost of that. This has been known for centuries, it’s nothing new. It’s not like conception is a surprise to any of us.

Sorry, but women get pregnant. If they don’t want to either abstain or take precautions. Simple really.

Hugh
Hugh
4 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

And by the way, the idea that a woman can “get rid of it” (or prevent it happening in the first place) has increased the pressure on women to be constantly available, which I understand has been psychologically damaging for them. Certainly it has if the rates of mental health problems and self harm among adolescent girls and young women are anything to go by.

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  Hugh

Equally pathetic argument. The woke concept that women don’t have a mind of their own and can’t say no.

FFS

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  Hugh

And kindly do not respond to my posts’t using quotation marks implying that’s what I said. I didn’t use the term “get rid of it”.

I’m sure it was a mistake and you are dignified enough to respond in kind.

Rogerborg
4 years ago
Reply to  ebygum

If the woman can choose to murder the child, I can choose not to pay for it.

Fair enough?

dearieme
dearieme
4 years ago

I am not an anti-abortionist; I reluctantly think we should tolerate abortions.

But I loathe Roe-Wade; it was a judicial putsch.

Julian
4 years ago
Reply to  dearieme

As were Obergefell v Hodges (gay marriage), Lawrence v Texas (sodomy) and possibly Brown v Board of Education (racial segregation in schools). I’m not taking sides about those issues, just saying that the law was bent out of shape in order to decide them. The US was a socially conservative place when the constitution was written, and remained so for a very long time, and it’s (rightly) tricky to amend, so it’s not surprising that it has little or nothing to say about these kinds of issues.

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  Julian

I have made this point elsewhere. The comparison between a biblical concept of ‘gay boy bad’ and the conception of a child is ludicrous.

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  dearieme

The concept of pro or anti abortion is a complete distraction. There are very sound reasons for a woman to have an abortion. Rape/incest or danger to the mother going full term are a starting point. Personally, I’m all for the morning after pill, we all make mistakes, but killing a sentient child even medium term is just repulsive to me.

What pro abortion maintains is that it’s the mothers choice. But she made that choice when she willingly engaged in sexual intercourse with no protection.

Strangely, a woman (or man) gets no reprieve from STD’s once it becomes inconvenient.

Rogerborg
4 years ago

“Juristocracy”. Let’s stick to words that we all understand, like kritarchy.

Colonial matters, of no interest to civilised people. Still, I will enjoy watching hysterical purple haired baby murderers burning down their own States which fully intend to allow their infanticide to continue.

The other chuckle is the mob surrounding their Bigly Court, trying to storm it and intimidate (or kill and eat) the justices. Curiously, this does not seem to constitute an “insurrection”, for reasons that escape me.

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  Rogerborg

Nothing is an insurrection to the US left, not even a leftist insurrection.

Go on a right wing protest, however, and you’re locked up indefinitely without trial.

Gitmo terrorists had more rights than Jan 6th protestors.

WTF is the west doing objecting to Putin invading Ukraine when that travesty is continued by the Biden crime syndicate?

Dale
Dale
4 years ago

Reason enough for the judiciary to overturn Roe v Wade and throw it back to states.

Hugh
Hugh
4 years ago

” And because that outcome was decided through a legitimate political process”.

But not in Northern Ireland where, disgracefully, extreme laws removing protections for children (and by extension their mothers and families)) without reference to the politicians or people of Northern Ireland, who had not expressed a demand for this.

(And by the way, shame on Sinn Fein for going along with these changes).

MTF
MTF
4 years ago

This is a good article and I agree with the principle, but there are some other things to be considered. It is not clear what precisely SCOTUS will say is wrong with Roe vs Wade but the right to privacy on which it is based has all sorts of other consequences. It is for example the basis for dismissing laws which forbid mixed race marriages as unconstitutional. I think most of us would think it wrong to leave that decision to individual states.

It is also going to be a practical nightmare. Some of the anti-abortion states have already talked about legislation that allows someone in one state to sue a doctor in another state for performing an abortion on one of their residents (in the doctor’s state). With the advent of abortion pills which might be produced in one state, consumed in second, leading to an abortion in a third – lawyers should make a fortune.

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  MTF

It is not clear what precisely SCOTUS will say is wrong with Roe vs Wade 

It’s a leaked, preliminary document. Of course it’s not clear.

It is for example the basis for dismissing laws which forbid mixed race marriages as unconstitutional.

A disgustingly inappropriate argument and a ridiculous comparison. The life of a child weighed up against the social construct of bigotry.

It is also going to be a practical nightmare.

Like a dead child cares about that.

With the advent of abortion pills which might be produced in one state, consumed in second, leading to an abortion in a third – lawyers should make a fortune.

Utterly bizarre flight of thought.

MTF
MTF
4 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

What an utterly bizarre response. All I did was point out some potential complications arising from dismissing Wade vs Roe which might not have been considered. I made it clear I agreed with the article in principle.

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  MTF

You’re making up daft comparisons and extrapolating principles beyond anything realistic.

Try to stay within the bounds or reality.

MTF
MTF
4 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

II didn’t make any comparisons or extrapolate any principles! This is so bizarre. It is like you are reading something unrelated to what I wrote.

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  MTF

It is for example the basis for dismissing laws which forbid mixed race marriages as unconstitutional.

What’s that if not a comparison? FFS, you don’t even understand what you’re posting.

And clearly, you haven’t the common dignity to correct your misquotation of me.

MTF
MTF
4 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

What’s that if not a comparison? FFS, you don’t even understand what you’re posting.

It is a statement which does not include a comparison. Maybe we use “compare” in different ways? I use compare to mean point out similarities and differences between two things. The sentence you quote only discusses one thing: restrictions on laws about mixed race marriages.

However, looking beyond the quoted sentence, I guess the other thing you have in mind is restrictions on abortion laws. But the only similarity (or difference) I have pointed out is the constitutional restrictions in both cases rely on the principle of privacy. I have not for example said anything about which restriction is more morally justified.

And clearly, you haven’t the common dignity to correct your misquotation of me.

I am not aware of having quoted you at all.

This is all so strange.

misslawbore
misslawbore
4 years ago

All you blokes spouting off about abortion with some of you openly disapproving of it make me sick. Where are the women on here standing up for the right for a woman to choose? Frightened of these crusty macho moralists are you? For shame

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  misslawbore

Women have the choice. At the point of conception, or reasonably thereafter, thanks to the day after pill.

How about the choice of a sentient child being killed because mummy went on the piss, got herself up the duff and some months later had second thoughts.

Nothing to do with woman’s rights. It’s a child’s rights that matter.

Nor is anyone disapproving of abortion, it’s entirely appropriate under certain medical circumstances.

Mike Oxlong
4 years ago
Reply to  misslawbore

I think the trouble is when abortion is used as birth control. It is far too easy for women to get rid of a developing child with a heartbeat, fingernails and is perfectly formed after just a few weeks. When I taught the topic of abortion, most girls had no idea how it was done nor very little about the child development. They said things like ‘oh, it’s just a clump of cells…’ When it was explained that most babies were ripped apart and pulled out they changed their tune and, hopefully, their opinions.

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  Mike Oxlong

I think the trouble is when abortion is used as birth control.

I agree with that, but would qualify it with ‘late birth control’.

We have the morning after pill, as an example, and we all make mistakes. I think we all get that. What I understand from Roe Vs Wade is that abortion up until the moment of delivery of the child is considered acceptable.

I have no problem with, for example, the morning after pill, but waiting until a child is sentient before terminating its life is just unacceptable to me.

MTF
MTF
4 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

What I understand from Roe Vs Wade is that abortion up until the moment of delivery of the child is considered acceptable.

No. The original R vs W based it on trimesters:  during the first trimester, governments could not prohibit abortions at all; during the second trimester, governments could require reasonable health regulations; during the third trimester, abortions could be prohibited entirely so long as the laws contained exceptions for cases when they were necessary to save the life or health of the mother. Later this was modified so that governments could prohibit abortions when the foetus is viable so long as the laws contained exceptions for cases when they were necessary to save the life or health of the mother.

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  MTF

👍

Hugh
Hugh
4 years ago
Reply to  misslawbore

The trouble is, the original proto- feminists were pro-life, seeing the killing of the unborn as a denial of a woman’s femininity, and rightly seeing parallels in having a child killed with the absolute authority of a husband over his wife in some cultures. And the other point is that in many cases, it is abusive men who pressure or even force women into this (and I think of the former Liberal Democrat MP who was accused of this). Also, a death in such circumstances harms the siblings of this child and can indeed be deeply traumatic for them. I would also make a comparison with defence of a realm. It is almost exclusively men, historically, who have fought and died in wars. Does that mean they should have more right to decide how the places they defend are run? I wonder. And apart from anything else, the right to have someone killed is somewhat of a bogus right. Of course nobody wants mothers to die. Thing is though, The Republic of Ireland had a relatively low maternal mortality rate under their old system. I would also add the quote of a (proper) Nobel peace prize winner, Mother Teresa, who… Read more »

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  Hugh

What a lot of meaningless drivel.

Hugh
Hugh
4 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

In correct. All arguments that have been used on the issue, and if you research the matter, you will see why.

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  Hugh

I have researched it. Your post is complete drivel.

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  misslawbore

The assumption being, of course, is that we’re all blokes here.

Rogerborg
4 years ago
Reply to  misslawbore

If you choose to murder a baby, you’re a baby murderer. Seethe and cope all you like, but you don’t get to termagant us into silence.

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  Rogerborg

👍

A Y M
4 years ago

Ugh the next injection of division politics.
I don’t know if irritated or just bored now.

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  A Y M

👍

Jon Mors
Jon Mors
4 years ago

Abortion either is or might be the murder of a child (acknowledging that there is some uncertainty about when life begins). The alternative is either that the mother struggles and may be unhappy, or the child might be put up for adoption.

The moral calculus isn’t hard in a Pascal’s wager type of way. You risk a potentially morally catastrophic outcome versus a significantly less severe outcome.

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  Jon Mors

What does Pascal’s wager say about an unborn, sentient being?

I get the argument, but it’s always defined in the context of the adult, never the child.

You are fortunate to be able to conduct this debate because you were not aborted.

Who advocates for an unborn, sentient child?

Adults are given their day in court with the right to an advocate. Who advocates for an unborn child but for those of us who believe life is precious.

MTF
MTF
4 years ago
Reply to  Jon Mors

The trouble is that the issue is morality of abortion legislation not the morality of abortion. (It is perfectly consistent to hold that abortion after x weeks is morally wrong but anti-abortion legislation is morally wrong.) In practice anti-abortion legislation is about a choice between abortion at a clinically sound location close to you or abortion either a long way away or in medically dubious circumstances.

EppingBlogger
4 years ago

It isn’t quite true to say that voters have a say over policies. When all the Westminster Parties promote the same policies and their allies in the MSM silence or ridicule any alternative view, it is very difficult for the public to have their say. Brexit was a recent example but there are many issues. No one ever asked the public whether they agrteed, for example, with the weakening of controls and the reduction in restrictions on abortion in Britain. There was never a General Election in which it figured at all. When the political class adopts a policy no one else has a say and Parliamentary debate is portrayed so as to diminish anyone who speaks out against the fashion. I am against judge made law but someone has to decide what is permitted in a Republic with a Written Constitution. It has been wrong of the Supreme Court to take political power to itself but it is right that it is about to correct an historic error. As Douglas Murray has written, others are often surprised at the vehimence of debate in the USA on this and other issues. It is partly a reflection of a vigorous democracy… Read more »

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  EppingBlogger

We certainly don’t have a say (so far) in one of the most life affecting decisions ever to have been imposed on mankind as a whole, NetZero. It has been wrong of the Supreme Court to take political power to itself but it is right that it is about to correct an historic error. factually correct and entirely commendable of western legal systems. But when it has been delayed by 50 years or so to correct a travesty of both justice and the democratic mandate, it’s a political FUBAR and a point at which reform should be considered. On a practical level, the perpetrator of the whole Roe Vs Wade debate came out some years later that the premise of her case, her rape, was fabricated. She admitted on TV that she wasn’t raped. Some years after that she not only repeated that admission but stated she was, at the time, an alcoholic with drug and social problems. The entire legal decision was based on her evidence and her example, yet even after her admissions there were no questions asked as to the validity of the decision. I don’t think it’s partly a reflection of a vigorous democracy as Murray… Read more »

Lister of Smeg
Lister of Smeg
4 years ago

Perhaps the author here would tell that to the suppodely ‘informed professional’ journalist Judith Woods over at the Daily Telegraph, who seemingly fails to understand the distinction between judges striking down bad law and returning deicision-making on such matters to the elected representatives of each US state, and ‘banning’ abortion.

For the record, I only believe terminations should ever be considered under extremely limited circumstances, such as:

The baby will be severly disabled and the quality of its life after birth will be terrible;
The life of the mother is seriously at risk via any type of birthing method, and she isn’t willing to risk her life.

Even with (100% proven) sexual assault I would not be inclined to allow it, though I might be persuaded to allow the use of the ‘morning after pill’ within its very limited window of opportunity.

After all, a collection of cells doesn’t yet make a foetus, but afterward, that foetus is a distinct ‘being’ has done nothing to deserve its fate.

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  Lister of Smeg

Whilst I largely agree with you, your statement “The baby will be severly[sic] disabled and the quality of its life after birth will be terrible”.

First, Downs Syndrome can now be identified at quite an early stage. Second, the question of whether an afflicted child has a good or terrible life is entirely subjective.

As we advance medically and scientifically the moral issues simply pile up.

And I made the case elsewhere (however unlikely it is) that a raped woman who is kidnapped for weeks or months surely has the choice of terminating the pregnancy.

As unlikely as that may seem, incest victims are, more often than not, subjects of ‘imprisonment’ within the family.

In both these cases, both legally and morally in a civilised culture, those babies should never have existed in the first place.

Nor am I making a case or passing judgement here, simply posing questions we all need to consider.

Lister of Smeg
Lister of Smeg
4 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

…and that’s the problem with the law, both here and in the US – it needs to be revisisted, not just now, but every so often to take into account new medicine (for the treatment of serious afflictions / illness that would’ve previously made a baby’s life intollerable) and to reflect the ethics of society at the time via their elected representatives.

Unfortunately that hasn’t been the case for the last 40+ years in the US and even longer in the UK. Like with the NHS and immigration, it’s become a ‘taboo’ subject in society, especially both the media and politics because (mainly) the Left has made it that way.

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  Lister of Smeg

I’ll add that I have dealt with the immediate aftermath of rapes. Astonishingly, ‘Stockholm syndrome’ and the question of whether the victim somehow ‘invited’ the rape are real issues they struggle with, and can continue for some time.

The immediate administration of either the morning after pill (which wasn’t around in my time) or a D&C sometimes just isn’t possible. It is sometimes weeks, or even months later that the victim fully recognises the violation perpetrated on her.

Lister of Smeg
Lister of Smeg
4 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

A tricky situation to deal with, given the physical and psychological effects of the woman carrying and bringing up / giving away the child of said attacker vs the right to life of an innocent child (as a foetus) after the window of opportunity to use something like the morning after pill has gone.

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago

mr. Allan must have been living under a rock for the past two years.
those elected mp’s in europe, that in his opinion guarantee that nothing is ever completely off the democratic table, have all been very keen on trampling on the human rights of those that did not stand up and shout Heil Pfizer! when told to do so.
human rights have fallen off the table and it is doubtful if they ever will be restored again.

rtj1211
rtj1211
4 years ago

There’s no really satisfactory solution in this sort of situation, because neither side will ever back down when they have lost a battle. The war will never be over, because there is no ‘right answer’, only the one that fits with the consciences and feelings of people as they journey through life.

If there were one referendum on Roe vs Wade, how long before the losers demanded another one?

95% of people don’t want their whole lives being a never ending debate about one topic you know….