How Dare the Government Think it is Entitled to Trample on Our Fundamental Freedoms to Keep Us ‘Safe’

There follows a guest post by Dr. David Seedhouse, Honorary Professor of Deliberative Practice at Aston University, who says the underlying problem with the Government’s response to COVID-19 was that ethics was thrown out the window without a second thought, so no one reflected on whether it was justified so egregiously to trample on people’s fundamental rights.

One of the most troubling aspects of the Government’s response to the pandemic was its complete disregard for ethics. It seems not to have occurred to the decision-makers that the instant removal of fundamental civil liberties required – and must always require – the most comprehensive ethical justification. 

During the largely self-made crisis, the Government passed sweeping mandates with barely any serious reflection on the impacts on millions of people’s lives, and stubbornly refused to listen to a multitude of far more thoughtful, well-informed alternatives.

Inexcusably, it appears that the main reason the Government and its advisors neglected to consider ethics was brute ignorance – they didn’t think about ethics because they have no idea why it is important. To them ethics is at best a scarcely relevant adjunct to ‘following the science’. 

Had they understood ethics – or bothered to ask people who do – they would have been able to approach policymaking in a properly balanced and effective manner. 

There are several ways to include ethics in decision-making. Two of these are 1) to apply ethical standards and principles and 2) to deliberate holistically. Both can be undertaken simultaneously. 

Ethical standards 

A range of carefully considered ethical standards has been developed and fought for in the Western world over the past 70 years and more. Arguably the most fundamental of these is the principle of informed consent to interventions, established in both ethical theory and health care law. It is now regarded as essential that any health care professional – including public health professionals – must fully explain the range of possible interventions available and disclose the reasoning behind any recommendation they make. Anything less is either negligent or coercive. 

Holistic deliberation 

Beyond the application of fundamental principles, ethics may be seen as a thoughtful, wide-ranging decision-making approach which seeks to balance a variety of factors to reach reasonable conclusions. These conclusions will aways include both evidence and values. Taking one without the other is bound to lead to inadequate choices: the evidence cannot speak for itself and value judgements alone quickly become dogma. 

The Government and its advisors failed woefully to take account of either understanding of ethics. 

Any robust analysis of a personal or social problem requires the consideration of a range of ideas. However it seems that where public health is concerned, policies are routinely drawn up according to a single imperative – ‘we must reduce disease and therefore save lives’ – but of course this imperative itself requires ethical standards and ethical deliberation because, as we have tragically witnessed, trying to save lives in one way risks lives in other ways. 

As soon as you start to think beyond the fear of infection to consider the bigger picture, there is a flood of specific ethical issues. 

  • Is it ethical to force businesses to close their doors?
  • Is it ethical to cause so many people to lose their livelihoods?
  • How is it acceptable to override basic human rights with so little public involvement?
  • Is it ethical to close schools, particularly when the evidence that this will help control the spread of the virus is unclear? (In 2022 it is now clear that this made little or no difference to ‘stopping the spread’.)
  • Do restrictions heighten social inequalities (it is easier to self-isolate in a comfortable home, it is easier to cope if you have a pleasant garden, it is easier to weather financial uncertainty if you have a secure career and savings)?
  • Given that governments have borrowed many billions to weather the crisis, and this debt will have to be repaid, is it ethical to cause hardship and suffering to future generations in the interest of existing generations? 

There are many other measurable harms that should have been considered. ‘Minimising death’ was only one of many possible rationales. Consequently, the Government’s stubborn failure to reflect in a professional, balanced way caused massive, avoidable damage.  

Ethics is ultimately a matter of respecting thoughtful traditions grounded in compassion and human rights, and thinking as deeply as possible about the many effects your choices will have on other people. Ethics is the essence of civilised human co-existence. Over the past two years a handful of people, quite out of their depth, were able to dismiss ethics – along with previous well-documented Government pandemic planning – with what seemed like a mere wave of the hand. 

We must ensure that this can never happen again.

Professor David Seedhouse is a member of HART. This article forms part of HART’s developing response to the consultation on the U.K. COVID-19 Public Inquiry.

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Arborvitae23
4 years ago

Deliberative Practice?
I studied at Aston just after it became a red-brick University. It had practal courses that led into careers to design things, make things and do things.
I guess we don’t need those any more!!
Oh wait, energy, food …….

DocSeedhouse
DocSeedhouse
4 years ago
Reply to  Arborvitae23

Deliberation is fuindamental to democracy dating back to Ancient Greece: https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/dlcammack/files/daga_10.5.18_ac_sbt.pdf

SimCS
4 years ago
Reply to  DocSeedhouse

“Deliberate”:
adjective

  1. Done with or marked by full consciousness of the nature and effects;
  2. intentional.Arising from or marked by careful consideration: synonym:
  3. voluntary.Unhurried and careful.

…i.e. the exact opposite of what the govt did…

  1. No care for consequenses
  2. No consideration for anyone or anything
  3. Panicked, rushed and careless
Free Lemming
4 years ago

I believe the disregard of ethics was perfectly understood within government. It’s almost impossible that it wasn’t. Covid laid down the foundations of compliance and ID acceptance, also highlighting the size of any opposition. On those foundations a new economy and society can be built, using war as the tool of implementation. Nothing is accidental or coincidental.

John001
John001
4 years ago
Reply to  Free Lemming

Johnson wouldn’t understand ethics if they hit him in the face. He appears to have none.

However, if there were any MPs with a conscience (like Steve Baker and David Davis obviously have) in the cabinet, they’d have been aware. So would traditional civil servants … but they might have all been swept away now and replaced by highly ‘political’ ones, which started to happen in the Blair era.

Marcus Aurelius knew
4 years ago
Reply to  John001

Add in Richard Drax, one of the first to stick his head above the parapet.

I like Sumption’s assessment of Johnson: “intellectually idle”.

TheGreenGoblin
TheGreenGoblin
4 years ago
Reply to  John001

Gove was and is the real problem. Johnson saved us from the worst of the tyranny we have seen across Western Europe and rest of the English-speaking world.

Rogerborg
4 years ago
Reply to  TheGreenGoblin

Johnson inflicted tyranny on us. I won’t thank a man for merely stamping on my face rather than taking a running kick at it.

TheGreenGoblin
TheGreenGoblin
4 years ago
Reply to  Rogerborg

Fair.

Hypatia
Hypatia
4 years ago
Reply to  Rogerborg

That’s a good description. I’ll use it in future, if I may?

amanuensis
4 years ago
Reply to  John001

I think part of the problem is that so many politicians come from a legal background. In this profession it isn’t about being correct, merely about winning the argument. And it is important that this is the case in law, otherwise you couldn’t have lawyers working for the guilty to ensure that they get a fair trial etc. But it isn’t the case in politics — here it is in all our interests to ensure that we get the best result, not simply that the best lawyer wins. We could do better to have more scientists (even though ‘science’ is flawed these days), but they do sensible things like say ‘I don’t know’ and ‘I’ve changed my mind because the facts have changed’ — those trained to make legal arguments (rhetoric) tend to make mincemeat out of these individuals, so they never rise in politics. The main problem is that the public tend to be relatively ignorant of these tricks, and do tend to go with the powerful speech that oozes certainty about what is presented as a simple situation, rather than the thoughtful argument that admits lack of information in a complex situation and perhaps even u-turns on occasion.… Read more »

milesahead
milesahead
4 years ago
Reply to  amanuensis

Rather than ‘scientists, I’d much rather engineers (those with genuine field experience) were involved – they would apply real-world logic to problems. The concepts of zero-covid and zero-carbon wouldn’t last 30 minutes if discussed honestly.

RDG
RDG
4 years ago
Reply to  milesahead

Engineers are the best …. so often just tell the truth …. so refreshing.
You don’t get any post modern engineers 🙂

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  amanuensis

They need to have a “legal background” in order to either get around the law or simply change it to suit themselves!

“In the “National Interest” and for the Public Good” just about get around any law!

Strange how it sounds so much like something proposed by the NSDAP!

Alter Ego
Alter Ego
4 years ago
Reply to  amanuensis

With respect, Amanuensis – and I do mean that, there have been enormous numbers of scientists who have behaved disgracefully.

They have bullied, lied, and refused to change their minds in the face of new evidence.

You are one of the honourable few – and you can’t write under your own name.

Richard Noakes
Richard Noakes
4 years ago
Reply to  amanuensis

Now call me a skeptic, but it seems to me the Covid vaccines are not about the Covid infection at all, or stopping it, they are about putting in the mRNA, Lipids, so the particles go through the Brain, Blood Barrier and Graphene Oxide/Hydroxide particles in your body – the purpose for that has not been explained, or even mentioned. In the US, the Supreme Court has ruled that vaccinated people world wide are products, patented goods, according to US law, no longer human. Through a modified DNA or RNA vaccination, the mRNA vaccination, the person ceases to be human and becomes the OWNER of the holder of the modified GEN vaccination patent, because they have their own genome and are no longer “human” (without natural people), but “trans-human”, so a category that does not exist in Human Rights. The quality of a natural person and all related rights are lost. This applies worldwide and patents are subject to US law. Since 2013, all people vaccinated with GM-modified mRNAs are legally trans-human and legally identified as trans-human and do not enjoy any human or other rights of a state, and this applies worldwide, because GEN-POINT technology patents are under US… Read more »

Allnamestaken
Allnamestaken
4 years ago
Reply to  Richard Noakes

A link to the Supreme Court or reliable source would be helpful. This website doesn’t even know the differene between complimentary and complementary – which may be a detail but does not instill confidence.

DevonBlueBoy
DevonBlueBoy
4 years ago
Reply to  Allnamestaken

The devil lives in the details

milesahead
milesahead
4 years ago
Reply to  John001

Ethics? Johnson thinks that’s a county next to Sussex!

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  John001

“He appears to have none”

That is precisely why he was “chosen”!

Blair’s meeting in New York with Soros started the evil ball rolling!

I think the last two year have shown that it is now totally naive to put any faith in any MP or in our entire political and legal Establishment and system – they have been ‘politically cleansed’ by Davos over the last two decades .

The ‘Fake Opposition’ Labour Party is simply dead.

We have watched open mouthed at the wholesale destruction of the integrity of the BBC and even tolerated the demolition of Gender identity and the propagandised indoctrination of our children with fringe ideologies.

As for the “Law”, If Sumption had not made a few tiny waves before being warned off they would have needed someone else to act as the Token Opposition.

No-one hears what he has to say anyway so they can ignore him.

In the end Tyrants always use guns not ‘laws’ and arguments to get their way.

Judy Watson
Judy Watson
4 years ago
Reply to  John001

Please spell his name right. It is bliar

huxleypiggles
4 years ago
Reply to  Judy Watson

Indeed.

Aletheia of Oceania
Aletheia of Oceania
4 years ago
Reply to  Free Lemming

Spot on, Free Lemming.

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  Free Lemming

Demolition of Western civilisation by a Cabal of Evil Nihilists – look forward to the Zombie movie – except it was all in the ‘Game of Thrones’!

harrystillgood
harrystillgood
4 years ago
Reply to  Free Lemming

Have you considered the possibility, that government was unaware of the ethics. That is, the ignorance of ethics was an unconscious activity for them?

There’s so much evidence across history for the collective to be come ‘possessed’ by a kind a demon, and to act with great power, yet oblivious to the consequences.

Are you able and willing to consider this possibility?

stewart
4 years ago
Reply to  Free Lemming

Government isn’t really about ethics. It is about power and control.

Governments act ethically only so far as the governed demand it and make it a condition of allowing themselves to be governed.

conocido en valenciana
Reply to  Free Lemming

Spot on.

stewart
4 years ago

Where were all these sceptics in March 2022?

It’s great that people come round to the realisation of the atrocity that has been committed.

I don’t know where David Seedhouse stood in March 2020 and whether he tried to voice this same opinion then.

However, for anyone who has finally seen the light, the question that they need to ask themselves is how can it be that I allowed this to happen? Did I fail to ask questions? Did I make the mistake of trusting authority? Was I frightened?

As someone who was horrified by the actions of governments from day one, I’m not interested in hearing what a terrible mistake it all was. I want to hear an honest appraisal from those who’ve realised it was a mistake of why they allowed it to happen.

Basically less pontificating and a bit more humility.

Boomer Bloke
4 years ago
Reply to  stewart

Exactly. Where were all these closet sceptic academics 2 years ago? Hiding under their closeted desks in their PPE? Like their colleagues in central and local government and the NHS.

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  Boomer Bloke

Looking forward to its future role, do you mean the NHSS?

TheGreenGoblin
TheGreenGoblin
4 years ago
Reply to  stewart

Have the core of establishment though? Still seems to be a real risk the enquiry tells us it should have been “harder”, “faster”.

God help us.

Spritof_GFawkes
4 years ago
Reply to  stewart

“Where were all these sceptics in March 2022?”
If you look back on this site David Seedhouse has bee authoring sceptical articles since way back

Alter Ego
Alter Ego
4 years ago

Sorry – Spirit of GFawke. I posted before scrolling down to your comment.

stewart
4 years ago

That should be March 2020, not March 2022. My mistake.

In March 2020 I found one person, one, in my entire group of family, friends and acquaintances who thought what was being done was a dangerous, terrible mistake. And I think that is quite representative of how many people in society were against the initial lockdown at the time it was implemented.

The moment to stop it was at the very outset. That was when people should have resisted and claimed it was intolerable. It would have stopped everything else in its tracks because we would have demonstrated that that idiot Neil Ferguson was wrong and that they couldn’t get away with it here.

Maybe David Seedhouse was one of the few who was appalled from the outset. But most of the people today claiming it was a mistake didn’t think so then. I don’t want to see their sanctimonious crap. I want to see a confession: why I shrivelled up in the face of danger and betrayed freedom.

Alter Ego
Alter Ego
4 years ago
Reply to  stewart

He did quite a bit of writing for The Conservative Woman. This was the first, as far as I am aware:

Johnson’s scaremonger scientists should be struck off – The Conservative Woman

DocSeedhouse
DocSeedhouse
4 years ago
Reply to  Alter Ego

Thank you – you are correct. Here’s some more: https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/author/davidseedhouse/

It doesn’t reeally matter though. What matters is that as many people as possible call it as we see it.

stewart
4 years ago
Reply to  Alter Ego

December 2020? The horses haven’t just bolted by December 2020. They’ve done 20 laps of the course.

As I say, I don’t know what David Seedhouse’s views on the day of the first lockdown were. He might have been as horrified as me.

IF he was anything but that, though, I’d like to read a confession more than a lecture.

Alter Ego
Alter Ego
4 years ago
Reply to  stewart

I agree.

DocSeedhouse
DocSeedhouse
4 years ago
Reply to  stewart

Stewart, I was writing a protest book in March 2020. I finished it in May and it was pubished in September. I have been consistently active since then, even funding a pro-democracy website. Here are relevant links: https://uk.sagepub.com/en-gb/eur/the-case-for-democracy-in-the-covid-19-pandemic/book275656; https://ourdecisiontoo.com/

I asked questions, was angry not frightened and I never trusted these people. How anyone could is beyond me, even given the deliberate fear-mongering.

stewart
4 years ago
Reply to  DocSeedhouse

Well, that sets me straight then. 🙂

You’ll agree there weren’t many of us at the time. I spent the first weeks frantically trying to rally outrage against what was happening and found there was practically none.

The only place left to go was non-compliance and subversion which hasn’t been a pleasant experience.

I hope your book has done well.

Alter Ego
Alter Ego
4 years ago
Reply to  DocSeedhouse

Thank you. It’s an important reminder of how effectively dissent has been suppressed. We were made to feel alone – voices crying in the wilderness.

In March 2020, I felt I was searching in vain for someone somewhere who would protest. The first person I found was Professor Ioannidis, warning about lockdowns (“A Fiasco in the Making”, March 17).

conocido en valenciana
Reply to  stewart

Not a mistake. Planned, deliberate.

TheGreenAcres
4 years ago

You could apply the same questions to the MSM who are supposed to hold power to account. With a few notable exceptions they have also failed utterly in their duty.

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  TheGreenAcres

‘Supposed’ by whom?

There is no law or written Constitution requiring them to – just convention. Freedom of the Press means freedom to print straight lies ( subject to potential v’ expensive court action of course) and propaganda – especially when encourage by money from directly BG and our Government!

Our ‘freedoms’ depend on the assumed good will and moral behaviour of our Government acting under their ” duty of care” in our interests – that has now obviously all ended!

Our “Rights” under Magna Carta and the 1688 ‘Bill of Rights’ cannot be repealed – but they can be circumvented, which is exactly what the new “Bill of Rights” is intended to do!

All you need is a compliant “Supreme Court “- cue Tony Blair!

stewart
4 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

Relying on the government’s good will and moral behaviour is futile.

It’s not what it’s for and it certainly isn’t conducive to getting things done.

If we want more freedoms we need to demand less government. It’s that simple.

Alter Ego
Alter Ego
4 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

Byron observed that he liked “the Habeas Corpus (when we’ve got it)”.

steve_z
4 years ago

“‘Minimising death’ was only one of many possible rationales. “

as would be ‘minimising lost QALYs’ which would have given a different response

good article and great work all round from HART

John001
John001
4 years ago
Reply to  steve_z

It seems that ‘Russian flu’ in 1977 & 78 killed 700,000, mainly children and adults under 25. It probably wiped out more QALYs than COVID-19 did. For each person who sadly died, ~55-60 years of life were lost instead of maybe 3-5.

steve_z
4 years ago
Reply to  John001

and we are going to get 100,000 extra deaths from missed cancer treatments apparently – 20-30 years each

lockdown would never have been done if there was a cost benefit analysis. The evidence already suggested it was a bad idea. The Lancet, BBC, Guardian et al have been going on about ‘austerity killed 130,000’ for a decade – so they clearly accept that wealth and health are related.

huxleypiggles
4 years ago
Reply to  John001

700,000 died of Russian ‘flu in 1977 / 78? That’s worldwide I presume?

johnthebridge
johnthebridge
4 years ago

Bit late for all that now, isn’t it?

Julian
4 years ago

It’s absolutely not true to say no one reflected on the ethics of it
We were doing that here from the start
We were ignored and marginalised by evil government and other power structures, quite knowingly, and those same evil people manipulated a gullible public into hating us

hi60
4 years ago

Here here Dr.

HART are great too by the way.

PhantomOfLiberty
PhantomOfLiberty
4 years ago

No question it was deliberate – governments around the world had hundreds of pages of legislation ready to process at the drop of hat. Within weeks Prince Charles and the WEF were telling us it was a once in a lifetime opportunity

https://www.princeofwales.gov.uk/thegreatreset

They suspended autopsy!!!

PhantomOfLiberty
PhantomOfLiberty
4 years ago

PS Another question might be why it was alright for the Prince of Wales to initiate the Great Reset in the government’s name?

huxleypiggles
4 years ago

Klaus told Bozo it was OK.

huxleypiggles
4 years ago

At the risk of repeating myself – the Windsors have got to go. Well past their use by date. And Charlie boy is a Nutjob first class. Problem with nutjobs, they can be dangerous.

PhantomOfLiberty
PhantomOfLiberty
4 years ago
Reply to  huxleypiggles

Yes, and actually it is a pity. This is no longer constitutional monarchy.

TheyLiveAndWeLockdown
4 years ago

They’ve ALL got to go.

It really is us or them.

Sforzesca
Sforzesca
4 years ago

Yet again for the hard of hearing.
It never was/is/nor will be about a virus.

It’s all about how to achieve control – which they can only achieve via digital ID/cashless society, but even the dimmest sheep would normally balk at that.

So, enter the virus, create fear such that the only way to salvation lies with the miracle jab and mandate it for the refuseniks.

The fundamental human rights of the individual are trashed.
The new concept is – For the Greater Good.

And it’s coming our way soon.

Aletheia of Oceania
Aletheia of Oceania
4 years ago
Reply to  Sforzesca

For the Greater Good”…

…of the few.

PhantomOfLiberty
PhantomOfLiberty
4 years ago
Reply to  Sforzesca

To be clear this is the Rockefeller Foundation “lockstep” plan from 2010
https://www.nommeraadio.ee/meedia/pdf/RRS/Rockefeller%20Foundation.pdf
Global Digital ID became UN policy in conjunction with Rockefeller, Microsoft and GAVI in 2016 yet no one was told – a Wiki entry mentioning it was added in 2020
https://www.ageofautism.com/2021/11/id-2020-re-visited.html
Daily Sceptic needs to catch up with certain documented realities. The latest is that we live through week after week of incredibly inept war reporting which does not even mention that the regime we are supposed to be supporting is avowedly Nazi in its full historic meaning. Those that govern us and those report from the legacy media are freaks, clowns and stooges.

huxleypiggles
4 years ago

‘Hiding in plain sight.’

huxleypiggles
4 years ago
Reply to  Sforzesca

Bang on.

milesahead
milesahead
4 years ago
Reply to  Sforzesca

In addition, this faux pandemic, enabled the postal-vote fraud in the US election.

JaneDoeNL
JaneDoeNL
4 years ago
Reply to  milesahead

Yes, something ignored by most because Trump was so universally hated.

Here in NL they tried electronic voting once and ditched it because of the potential for abuse. We had postal voting in last year’s general election, but only for over-70s – because of the potential for abuse. And that turned out to be a bit of a shambles. There was no postal voting in the recent municipal elections. But they never mentioned in the news here that Trump was challenging exactly those things the Dutch government had deemed open to abuse..

conocido en valenciana
Reply to  Sforzesca

Thank you. This is a succinct summary of the matter.

Aletheia of Oceania
Aletheia of Oceania
4 years ago

 – they would have been able to approach policymaking in a properly balanced and effective manner.”

Oh contraire.

Governmental lock step policy making, across the Western globe, has been highly effective at achieving the goals which were dictated to them.

Star
4 years ago

Had they understood ethics – or bothered to ask people who do – they would have been able to approach policymaking in a properly balanced and effective manner.

🙂 That line is best delivered by a 17-year old at a second division private school, wearing a clown suit.

JeremyP99
4 years ago
Reply to  Star

Ha! Johnson and ethics are not nor ever have been, bedfellows.

Star
4 years ago
Reply to  JeremyP99

Indeed, but there is insisting on the obvious in a useful way, and there is insisting on the obvious in a “professional expert” way that reinforces the main assumptions of the prestige system and acts against genuine critique which can only tend towards being genuinely total.

Or in fewer words: experts in ethics, my left cr*phole!

Those who pay the “HART” group are well aware of what they are paying for and what they’re getting out of it.

Aletheia of Oceania
Aletheia of Oceania
4 years ago
Reply to  JeremyP99

However, BJ’s numerous other bedfellows is a completely different ethical issue.

Alter Ego
Alter Ego
4 years ago
Reply to  Star

Had they understood ethics – or bothered to ask people who do – they would have been able to approach policymaking in a properly balanced and effective manner.

I think I understand, Star. Everything that happened – the forced confinement, the dismissals, the trashing of lives and livelihoods, the threats, the intimidation, the lies – could have been avoided, if politicians had undertaken an ethics module as part of their induction process.

Well I’m glad that’s sorted.

7941MHKB
7941MHKB
4 years ago

Ethics may be important – especially when dealing with the likes of Michie, Ferguson, Whitty, Vallance who appear to have none.

But it is far more relevant that decisions on scientific, mathematical, technical, medical problems must NEVER be made by completely incompetent arts grad politicians influenced by so called “Scientific Advisors” who have personal direct financial interests, political motivations and a great enthusiasm for Policy Based Evidence Making.

The very mention of “THE Science” indicates a total absence of understanding, which should merit a long spell of mailbag sewing and quiet contemplation.

TheyLiveAndWeLockdown
4 years ago
Reply to  7941MHKB

Exactly, experts merely know more about the doubts and what can be wrong than non experts.

We’ve seen masses of PR but very little expertise from this government in particular.

Dodgy Geezer
Dodgy Geezer
4 years ago

It seems not to have occurred to the decision-makers that the instant removal of fundamental civil liberties required – and must always require – the most comprehensive ethical justification. 

On the contary.

It yielded up ALL ethical grounds to the lockdown activists immediately. The activists won for the following reasons:

1 – They fielded fake modelling data suggesting that vast numbers of people, perhaps the whole human species, could die if something was not done.

2 – The collapse of STEM training meant that there were no establishment figures capable of understanding the limitations and errors in the modelling.

3 – Any external competent specialists who WERE capable of this and raised their voices were promptly suppressed, smeared and removed from all social media communication.

The ethics of locking down a country and perhaps killing 1m people as a result are acceptable, if the alternative is having 50m people dying. It’s not ethics we need to attack – it’s the lies which made us think there was no alternative. Same thing is going on with energy and climate change as we chat…

CovidiousAlbion
4 years ago
Reply to  Dodgy Geezer

“The ethics of locking down a country and perhaps killing 1m people as a result are acceptable, if the alternative is having 50m people dying.” Yes, but only if that is a God-given certainty. In the, infinitely more likely, circumstances of there being any doubt that stepping outside his dwelling, and setting about his business, will result in an individual’s almost instantaneous death, the individual must be free to make his own choice about it. Life is an exercise in the taking of risks, and controlling someone’s risks is controlling his life; is controlling him. We each need to be crystal clear of our own, inalienable, right of autonomy (of both body, and – Susan Michie – mind), and, secondly, to recognise that this right is enjoyed by everyone else, too [1]. It simply is not safe for us to live amongst people who have not, in decent majority, embraced these principles. If we do, then, when some tyrant decides he is going to enslave us all, they are at least as likely to be tricked into assisting in the enforcement of his “greater good” scheme, as to join us in fighting, unto death, for our liberty. If too few of our… Read more »

Alter Ego
Alter Ego
4 years ago

Life is an exercise in the taking of risks, and controlling someone’s risks is controlling his life; is controlling him.

Yes – a thousand times, yes. From the moment we take our first steps, we are at risk of falling over; from the moment we utter our first words, we are at risk of saying the wrong things. We take risks and we learn.

Moderate Radical
4 years ago
Reply to  Dodgy Geezer

The ethics of locking down a country and perhaps killing 1m people as a result are acceptable, if the alternative is having 50m people dying. It’s not ethics we need to attack – it’s the lies which made us think there was no alternative. Same thing is going on with energy and climate change as we chat…

Are you still about, Dodge Geez? I’d like to go through this with you.

rtj1211
rtj1211
4 years ago

The only way to ensure that it never happens again is to take away the right of Governments, Parliament and ‘experts’ to police themselves.

The Public Enquiry is set up by the Government, so it will not convict the Government. That’s the first rule of Whitehall. It means Civil Servants have Government Ministers by the short and curlies for ever. ‘We covered up for you, so if you don’t do what we tell you forevermore, we’ll spill the beans and destroy you’.

Can anyone ever tell me when a criminal trial has the defendants appoint the judge?

Well, until Public Enquiries have the Head Honcho appointed by people who really hate the Government, the Civil Service, the Medicomafia and the Pharmafia, not to mention billionaire psychopaths, they won’t actually achieve anything.

Boomer Bloke
4 years ago

I’m not well schooled in medical ethics or philosophy. But I do know the difference between right and wrong. And the government reaction to the covid pandemic, if that’s what we are calling it, was wrong. As was their reaction to the sceptical reaction to their reaction. And when you factor in the work of the SAGE, nudge unit and other psyops, it was possibly even evil. Certainly wrong with malicious intent. And these clever university types with time on their hands to reflect and cogitate must have seen that.

Spooky Bill
Spooky Bill
4 years ago

My only worry is that the government has got away with “it” and they know it. This enquiry will just sweep all evidence under the government rug.

Boomer Bloke
4 years ago
Reply to  Spooky Bill

Yes, and now they know just how easy it is to impose whatever draconian restrictions any time they see fit.

Star
4 years ago

On-topic: Peter Hebblethwaite, CEO of P&O Ferries, boasted to a joint meeting of two Commons select committees yesterday – transport and business – that he knowingly broke the law when he sacked 800 workers without consultation and that he’d do it again if he was in the same position. There’s no new information there on how big bosses think. But what is new is that someone boasts about it publicly in Parliament. I’ve see the Maxwell brothers claim immunity. I’ve seen Dominic Cummings defy a Commons committee. I’ve seen Arron Banks treat MPs as if they were dirt and walk out of an evidence session because he wanted to have his lunch. If Banks were an ordinary member of the population who tried that stunt in a courtroom, even a magistrates’ court, he would have been under arrest before he reached the door and sent straight to a cell. But I’ve never before seen someone say to a parliamentary committee that they knowingly committed a crime and, if they were back in the same position, they’d do it again. If the Kray twins had given evidence to a Commons committee, they wouldn’t have talked like that. I doubt organised crime… Read more »

TheGreenGoblin
TheGreenGoblin
4 years ago
Reply to  Star

I at least credit the man for his honesty.

Surely there will be some significant punishment (and law change) to follow.

Star
4 years ago
Reply to  Star

For those who don’t already know the story regarding Cunard: Basil Smallpeice, chairman of the Cunard group which owned the QE2 ocean liner, also had a role in managing the queen’s finances and it was he who confirmed that that ship would be available for the imprisonment of Harold Wilson’s (ex-)cabinet in the event that the okay was given to go ahead with a coup d’état. The government installed by the coup would probably have been led by royal family member Louis Mountbatten.

Star
4 years ago
Reply to  Star

The very same. I’ve only heard about his abuse of older boys and youths and young naval ratings though, not infants.

huxleypiggles
4 years ago
Reply to  Star

Oh, I think we can conclude with a reasonable degree of certainty that if there is a dodgy finance deal going on the Windsors will be tied in in some way.

Boomer Bloke
4 years ago
Reply to  Star

Yes, I wondered, briefly, why he wasn’t met by plod at the committee room door and placed in handcuffs and a choke hold. That’s what happened to people who wanted to breath freely while walking outdoors only a few short months ago.

amanuensis
4 years ago

Politics these days seems to be about simplifying the message to such an extent that the nuance of life becomes a white-hat black-hat sort of problem.

They did this very successfully with Covid.

Really we should all say ‘it is complicated’ whenever we see a complex problem, and call out anyone that says that ‘it is simple’ — it never is simple.

But people seem to like simple messages where they don’t have to think but just choose which side to be on — I suppose this isn’t too bad, but it fails when you’ve got government propaganda telling them that they’ll literally kill grannies if they happen to choose the other side.

Sforzesca
Sforzesca
4 years ago
Reply to  amanuensis

Too true.

Everything in life is simple – until you actually study it.

JaneDoeNL
JaneDoeNL
4 years ago
Reply to  amanuensis

This, unfortunately, is the default position for most people on the planet, regardless of intellect or education (and probably always has been). Most people do not want to think, they are intellectually lazy and want things spelled out for them in exactly that manner ‘right – wrong’, ‘black – white’.

Poor victim Ukraine, mean bully Russia. Climate change causing upheaval, blame people (because that can be easily dealt with), not nature (requires admission that some things are beyond control and any solutions would be very difficult). Virus kills people, hide under bed and don’t breath. Accept that viruses kill people and there are some things that we can’t change? Perish the thought.

Bring some nuance to a story (regardless of topic) and people will look at you like you’re a lunatic.

MikeAustin
4 years ago
Reply to  amanuensis

We have a tendency to label things rather than scrutinising. As soon as there is a label, analysis stops and dogma is established.
“Simplifying the message” is tantamount to using larger labels. These are more quickly applied and easier for the mentally lazy to run off with a fixed view that diverges from reality in proportion to label size.
There is some feeling of security in fixed views. One can relax without the hassle of having to think too much. People do not seem to be able to relax with “I don’t know”, which would be a more honest approach to the situation.

Aleajactaest
4 years ago

let me fix the first sentence for you:

One of the most troubling aspects of the Government’s response to the pandemic was its complete disregard for ethics the law.

TheGreenGoblin
TheGreenGoblin
4 years ago

Ethics? Even “the science”, correctly applied, wouldn’t have led to lockdowns (or leaky vaccines using experimental technology for that matter).

Panic, fear and mob ignorance overtook everything. The only guard against that happening again would seem to be the benefit of collective experience and wisdom. No ethical guide, law or scientific finding will be enough.

huxleypiggles
4 years ago
Reply to  TheGreenGoblin

Nope. You are letting them off via the cock-up theory. Everything that happened was pre-planned. Ethics weren’t just disregarded they were deliberately ditched.

TheGreenGoblin
TheGreenGoblin
4 years ago
Reply to  huxleypiggles

Everything the UK can be explained by the fear factor. Policy actually looked sensible until the media decided “herd immunity” was an evil policy (despite actually being the only solution) and the Cabinet panicked there would be people dying in hospital corridors.

Fauci and the American drug industry can’t be let off so lightly. Over here, we had no-one strong and smart enough to stand up to their nonsense.

Libertarianist
4 years ago

Professor Seedhouse’s stuff is great. As a nurse who is interested in ethics, his stuff is required reading. HART are great too.

But there are two very major flaws with his analysis; namely the assumption of good faith and the assumption that their aim was actually in preventing death at all.
Their actions can be much more adequately explained by assuming these were very much not their aims at all.

Alter Ego
Alter Ego
4 years ago
Reply to  Libertarianist

Nailed it.

DocSeedhouse
DocSeedhouse
4 years ago
Reply to  Libertarianist

Thanks Libertarianist. I cetainly do doubt their good faith but I have assumed it since it is hard to disprove. What is very clear however is that they ignored ethics entirely – was this just ignorance (they show little sgn of general education) or was it deliberate or did they just not care?

Alter Ego
Alter Ego
4 years ago
Reply to  DocSeedhouse

I suspect the latter.

JayBee
4 years ago

“Had they understood ethics – or bothered to ask people who do – they would have been able to approach policymaking in a properly balanced and effective manner.”

Most likely not.
Germany has an ethics council, Ethikrat, consisting of many specialists in ethics from the fields of theology, medicine, law etc., advising the government, which became highly prominent and influential during the ‘pandemic’, in particular its two Chairwomen, Profs Woopen and Buyx.
It basically just whitewashed everything the government wanted to do in advance, from lockdowns to masking children to the discrimination of the unvaxxed to the vaccine mandate. Everything.
I now call them a council for justifying any discrimination, torture and genocide etc..
Which is also totally unaware of the trolley problem.

Woodburner
Woodburner
4 years ago

The damage which started in earnest in March 2020 is going to be a h**l of a job to undo. The mask-fanatics and testaholics will be with us for years. They need their noses rubbed in something really nasty until they see sense.

peyrole
peyrole
4 years ago

Don’t recall you alongside the likes of Yeadon, Heneghan or even the GBD people, Prof Seedhouse in early 2020 when this sort of thing might have been useful.
Now its ‘safer’ to put your head above the parapet, you and many others are giving us the benefit of your wisdom. Well we were saying these things loudly in march 2020, much good it did.

J4mes
4 years ago

The above article reads out as a naive normie who has been ‘tango’d’ by an invisible orange Pfeffel. I would invite the author to cast his mind back to the very start of “The Pandemic” and recall the CCTV videos of Chinese people pretending to drop down dead and carted off by government officials dressed in hazard suits. We were told by the UK media to believe in these ridiculous videos and that “The Pandemic” was coming our way. Did the author of the above article question for himself if we were being fed propaganda with [bad] actors? If we can agree the videos were staged, then logically we must question if there really was a pandemic. The onus falls on those who took away our liberties to prove beyond reasonable doubt that there really was a pandemic. Instead, they meddled with data and staged their own propaganda videos using stock footage of busy hospitals. The criminally ignored admission by Hancock and his mate that they committed mass murder of hospital “bedblockers” after transferring them to care homes and administering life-ending drugs explains the excess deaths which were labelled ‘covid deaths’. These became known as “The First Wave”. The lies… Read more »

TheyLiveAndWeLockdown
4 years ago
Reply to  J4mes

Nor will they question what the MSM shows them “from” east of Poland and west of Russia…

huxleypiggles
4 years ago
Reply to  J4mes

Nailed it.

Chris_uk
4 years ago

David Icke sums this all up pretty well in his latest video. I hesitate to share it as I find him a bit extreme these days, but on this subject I’m afraid he is absolutely spot on.

Rogerborg
4 years ago
Reply to  Chris_uk

I’m not a fan, but the 2006 documentary “David Icke: Was He Right” had an eye opening moment where they were filming in public in London and he was bemoaning in general that we were drifting into a police state where things were forbidden unless permitted.

With perfect timing, a couple of Met robots pounced, demanding to know what he was filming, and whether he had a loicence for it.

The warning signs were well in place by then.

TheGreenGoblin
TheGreenGoblin
4 years ago
Reply to  Rogerborg

I think he lost most people when he moved onto shape-shifting reptiles.

TheyLiveAndWeLockdown
4 years ago
Reply to  Chris_uk

Maybe he’s extreme only in his prescience?

Rogerborg
4 years ago

If tyrannosaur vision is based on movement, beancounter vision is based on spreadsheets.

If you can’t put a number on it, they can’t perceive or even conceive of it.

Garfy1967
Garfy1967
4 years ago

I will never, ever forget. I will never, ever forgive. Those in government know who they are.

Jon Garvey
4 years ago

The Government and its advisors failed woefully to take account of either understanding of ethics.

This somehow reminds me of a recent speech by the wicked Mr Assad of Syria, who says that the actions of the West (us, that is) can be explained by the lack of any principles except what ever it takes for the elite to get money and power.

If we feel rightly aggrieved at the casual disregard of our civil liberties, think what Syrians must feel to see us arming and supplying Al Qaeda to overthrow the regime, having overthrown Saddam Hussein’s regimeand destroyed Iraq because we lied that they supported Al Qaeda.

Somehow I don’t think they can be shamed into consigning Covid totalitarianism to history.

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  Jon Garvey

Assad looks less “wicked” by the hour!

Just imagine if he has been telling the truth about everything all along? So many dots would instantly form a line!