The Moral Necessity of Arming Ukraine – a Reply to Noah Carl

The recent article by Noah Carl about moral concerns regarding weapons deliveries to Ukraine is wrong on every level. The main argument goes that, by providing weaponry, the West might prolong a war, and thus prolong hardship. The same argument could be applied to any military conflict, where it could be held that the military defeat of an enemy can, morally, be accomplished as soon as the aggressor is able to inflict sufficient harm on the populace of its enemy such as to render it ‘immoral’ for the defender to continue without accepting the loss of life as its responsibility.

This is an aggressors’ charter that is, in itself, utterly immoral. Simplified, it says: “Because I can hurt your people, you must surrender, or else you will be causing them harm.” Or, “Don’t stand up to bullies: they might hurt you.”

This line of argumentation needs to emphasise particular kinds of hardship – those suffered during a war – while minimising others. The value of freedom and dignity to the people at the receiving end becomes a ‘preference’ – something like a subjective value judgement – rather than an absolute moral right, and the hardships entailed by the loss of that freedom and having to live under a tyranny imposed by a foreign pariah state for – perhaps – generations is some far-off future imponderable not needing to be addressed.

But let’s consider for a moment the hardship of all those Russian tankers in their T-72s with those quick-detach turrets getting burnt to cinders by our N-LAWs. It must be absolutely terrifying for them. I feel sorry for the Russian conscripts who were apparently forced to sign contracts just before the invasion, making it then ‘legal’ for Putin to send them off to a foreign war. But should Ukraine lose this war, in the coming years those could be Ukrainian conscripts, forced against their will to fight in some foreign land. That’s just one obvious consequence of living under Putin.

But freedom is much more than just politically and personally advantageous. Much has been said about that topic in relation to Covid, but there’s a reason that freedom is the one thing that humans are consistently willing to fight to the death to hold on to, or to win back. The phrase “win back” is apposite: freedom – the freedom to think, to speak and to choose for oneself – is the ultimate right that, deep down, everyone knows to be inalienable. Slaves know it is secretly still theirs. To the atheist, it is as an inextinguishable divine spark.

Freedom can only be temporarily mislaid, never truly lost; even the choice to oppose that belief (in the comments section, perhaps) is merely an expression thereof. All dictators know this, necessitating elaborate countermeasures as part of an extensive state security apparatus, and in this case a bloody war of aggression that it is not only right but noble to oppose.

Noah quotes a figure of 400,000 deaths in the Syrian Civil War, or roughly 2% of the population. That is a tragedy, but to paraphrase another Russian dictator it is also a statistic telling us how those people value their freedom, that they are willing to pay so much in blood to achieve it. There were similar numbers killed in the U.S. Civil War. And while this current war isn’t technically a civil war, even were they equipped with only their own unguided and wire-guided missiles to fight against waves of Russian armour, I have no doubt the Ukrainians would still have fought what could well have been a much more protracted and bloody affair. At least it could easily have been much more costly in Ukrainian lives. Ukraine is not like the Syrian rebels, in that it already had enough weapons to fight an extended war, and in fact had and still has a large army with which to do so. So while I may only be a newly-fledged military analyst (adding to my credentials as a virologist), I wouldn’t concede that supplying sophisticated weaponry is likely to increase the final death toll or general hardship, except probably on the Russian side of the slate.

Noah goes on to criticise those who support a Western strategy of making this war so costly for Russia that it leads to a collapse of the Putin government and possibly the entire state, saying effectively ‘better the devil you know’ and also citing the danger of nuclear proliferation in that scenario. Nuclear proliferation didn’t happen in 1991, and neither was Yeltsin a worse leader on a geo-political level, but these are both risks, sure. However, there’s also a risk that Putin will try to use battlefield nukes if it looks like he’s losing badly in Ukraine, which could well escalate into a full-scale nuclear exchange. He’s also been helping the dangerously millenarian Islamo-fascist Iranian state in its nuclear proliferation efforts, so it seems like we’re already living in the world that Noah fears might come to pass as a result of a regime collapse in Moscow.

In fact, we probably haven’t been this close to a nuclear war since 1983. But what’s worse, and where I do have serious qualms about all this, is that so many apparently quite young people aren’t as concerned as they should be about nuclear war. They’re either too young to remember or aren’t able to imagine that Cold War feeling of always being a few terrifying moments away from obliteration or – if you’re unlucky – surviving, for a ghastly but probably quite brief time, a nuclear exchange. These people are still trying to insist that NATO should start a shooting match with Russia in the air, and I can’t help but feel this idiocy is psychologically just an expression of ‘cancel culture’. The youthful Ukrainian Government – absurdly, while under attack – also called for Russia to be banned from Twitter. To paraphrase Wellington, I don’t know what effect this has on the enemy, but it terrifies me.

Noah goes on to offer some possible counterarguments to his main theme, such as that supplying weaponry makes a quick Ukrainian victory more likely. I’d say that it makes any kind of victory more likely, which is clearly what the Ukrainian people want and which is really the ultimate point. But Noah questions which, or how many, Ukrainian people want to fight, and which of them would be willing to suffer through an extended war. I don’t disagree that this has, in some sense, the seed of a valid argument. For instance, I think the Nazis should have given up much sooner, when they knew they couldn’t win; that many Germans, including German soldiers, lost the will to fight, and that their failure to surrender until they did resulted in huge and unnecessary loss of life and property on both sides. But when it comes to Ukraine, when and on what terms it chooses to cease hostilities in a defensive war are fundamentally matters for its people to decide collectively (although the Russian army also has a say, sadly), and not for us to second-guess, especially when it’s clear that there’s overwhelming support for the war amongst ordinary Ukrainians.

The bravery and self-sacrifice shown by every strata of the Ukrainian military and civilian population has at times brought me to tears, and the nobility of their cause (apart their, ahem, surrender to the EU) shines brightly through the fog of war. We can’t fail them so badly as to base our decisions to offer lethal assistance on a speculative critique of their will and courage to resist this evil, and the truth is that the Ukrainians do, collectively, want to fight for their freedom. And when they lit the beacon to call for aid, we rightly answered, honouring the promise we made them in 1994.

Ian Rons is the IT Director of the Daily Sceptic.

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Dale
Dale
4 years ago

Regarding “the promise we made to them in 1994”, who’s “we”, asked Tonto ?

Star
4 years ago
Reply to  Dale

“We” are the representatives of Her Britannic Majesty’s Government of Her Majesty’s United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, who travelled at taxpaying plebs’ expense (first class) to Budapest to sign the “Budapest Memorandum” with a jolly expensive pen in December 1994, having shown inherited skills at negotiation, at drafting documents, and at making everybody like us – skills that we honed on the playing-fields and in the showers at Eton. God bless us!

And don’t tell anyone that the Vulgar Types from the USA don’t even trust us to decide when to launch “our own” nukes.

brachiopod
4 years ago
Reply to  Star

I would point out that they aren’t even too concerned about us launching trident since it was revealed when a test firing went wrong, that NORAD actually controls where trident goes.

JXB
JXB
4 years ago
Reply to  Star

Minor correction: United Kingdom of Great Britain.

Northern Ireland was annexed by The Imperial Franco-German Hegemony of Europe – much the same as Ukraine may be annexed by Russia, but in the case of NI without a shot being fired.

Beowulf
Beowulf
4 years ago
Reply to  JXB

The United Kingdom is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, no NI no UK, just GB.

Mark
4 years ago
Reply to  Dale

Here’s what “we” promised in 1994. See if you can find anything that requires us to aid the Ukraine in a conventional war (clue: you won’t): 1. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine; 2. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defence or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations; 3. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest… Read more »

Nessimmersion
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Prior to the above various promises were made to the Soviets:
“Declassified documents show security assurances against NATO expansion to Soviet leaders from Baker, Bush, Genscher, Kohl, Gates, Mitterrand, Thatcher, Hurd, Major, and Woerner

Slavic Studies Panel Addresses “Who Promised What to Whom on NATO Expansion?”
https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early

wildman10
4 years ago
Reply to  Nessimmersion

But that’s just propaganda aka a lie. Google the subject and you will find a myriad of independent articles that debunk it. The West and NATO made commitments over the employment of troops in the former GDR that they kept scrupulously, but that was all.

Aletheia of Oceania
Aletheia of Oceania
4 years ago
Reply to  wildman10

Jeez, you still use Google?

You will only ever find what Google deems appropriate.

https://www.corbettreport.com/solutionswatch-presearch/

Madeira
Madeira
4 years ago
Reply to  wildman10

I’m afraid you’re the one who’s spreading propaganda, aka a lie.

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early

NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard

Declassified documents show security assurances against NATO expansion to Soviet leaders from Baker, Bush, Genscher, Kohl, Gates, Mitterrand, Thatcher, Hurd, Major, and Woerner

In your defence, you would no doubt argue that there was no written pledge not to expand NATO east of Germany, and you would be correct. In this Gorbachev was a fool, a trusting fool. He should have insisted — and could have insisted — on a formal treaty ending the Cold War and neutralizing all of Eastern Europe, just as Austria was neutralized when the occupying powers withdrew in 1955 and signed the Austrian State Treaty.

Fingal
Fingal
4 years ago
Reply to  Madeira

The NATO-Russia Founding Act (1997) declared that “Nato and Russia do not consider each other as adversaries”, and that Nato transformation is “a process that will continue”.

Slam dunk.

chris-ds
chris-ds
4 years ago

What’s the end fans here?

Russia invaded, they won’t stop till they get what they want. The west won’t step in to stop them but are sending old weapons to Ukraine.

we see the devastation on tv 24/7, either step in or butt out.

if we left Russia to get on with what she’s doing we could then still apply the sanctions we are applying and do literally everything we are currently doing apart from not send arms to Ukraine.

normally we should help the invaded but clearly our “help” is limited and Russia will eventually prevail.

EU nations are still funding Putin by buying Russian fuel!!!!

STOP the war, STOP sending arms to Ukraine

STOP buying Russian fuel!! Impose proper meaningful sanctions on Russia.

the west has a history of prolonging wars longer than needed.

korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan are just 3 places that saw many hundreds of thousands needlessly die for no good reason, Ukraine should not need see the same number of dead.

Dale
Dale
4 years ago
Reply to  chris-ds

The West is determined to fight with Russia to the last Ukrainian.

chris-ds
chris-ds
4 years ago
Reply to  Dale

That’s the problem

TheyLiveAndWeLockdown
4 years ago
Reply to  Dale

The globalists are determined to distract via Russia to the last Ukrainian.

186NO
186NO
4 years ago
Reply to  Dale

Doubtless you think the Apollo landings did not take place because the Moon is made of cheese.

rayc
rayc
4 years ago
Reply to  chris-ds

And pray tell, what is this oh-so-terrible thing that Russia wants from Ukraine? Hint: it is not annexing the whole country, nor is it bombing it into oblivion.

186NO
186NO
4 years ago
Reply to  rayc

A so called neutral buffer with no military presence within; given he invaded Ukraine he is going to struggle to sell that to anyone. He could, if he was sincere and with the land space at his disposal within the Russian Federation, claim the high moral high ground and demilitarise a zone wholly within Russia ‘s eastern border from the Baltic to the Black Sea. But no, he wants to retain all his military hardware, nuclear and non nuclear, tanks planes and cruise missiles and force the “buffer on some one else – “you have to do way with your ability to defend yourself because we are threatened by you, so we will not disarm even if you do so because we have invaded you”. And that’s all NATO’s/US/UK/EU’s “fault”? That is naked aggression – exactly what some one eyed folks here accuse sovereign nations of doing – except there is nil evidence of intent, NATO nations have reduced their armed forces whilst Putin has done the exact opposite. “Hint: it is not annexing the whole country, nor is it bombing it into oblivion.” The most stupid, blindly ignorant, statement I have read about the last 3 weeks; so the… Read more »

Londo Mollari
4 years ago
Reply to  chris-ds

The invasion was a defensive measure to stop NATO getting into Ukraine, and to end the slaughter of ethnic Russians. Years of attempting to negotiate with the West simply failed.

karenovirus
4 years ago
Reply to  Londo Mollari

Bullying of ethnic Russians ? Possibly or possibly not given the extent of cross-community partnerships (ie marriage) making it difficult for some to decide which community represents their interests more closely.

As for the rest, exactly: a watered down version of Stalins Ring of Steel, the Warsaw Pact, which he created in an attempt to keep NATO at a distance from his doorstep.

John Dee
4 years ago
Reply to  karenovirus

I’m in the unhappy position of believing neither side in this dogfight. As many others have pointed out, it does seem to have worked very well in distracting attention away from the utter horlicks that most governments have managed in their fight against ‘The Pandemic’.
The powers that be would need to be truly evil to seek to distract us by having people killed, and I wish that possibility could be dismissed out of hand.
However… since their efforts at ‘keeping people alive’ over the last 2 years have proved so unsuccessful, one wonders whether deaths among the hoi polloi are really of much concern.

karenovirus
4 years ago
Reply to  John Dee

Two years ago the whole world would have dismissed that idea (creating war to dovert attention from ones own governments failures) out of hand.

Perhaps now we are not so sure.

JXB
JXB
4 years ago
Reply to  John Dee

Additionally, it’s unwise to put your hand into the middle of a dog fight and try and separate the combatants.

Aletheia of Oceania
Aletheia of Oceania
4 years ago
Reply to  John Dee

The powers that be would need to be truly evil to seek to distract us by having people killed, and I wish that possibility could be dismissed out of hand.”

Death by artillery is the perfect distraction from death by experimental injection, especially when the MSM whores are instructed to exclusively cover the former.

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  Londo Mollari

The simple truth …not much of it about.

Fingal
Fingal
4 years ago
Reply to  Londo Mollari

Yes, and the wonderful thing abut this invasion is that Putin has invented bombs that only hit evil Ukrainian speakers and avoid all the nice ethnic Russians.

186NO
186NO
4 years ago
Reply to  Londo Mollari

You morally bankrupt Putin sycophant – deliberate targeting of civilian areas and the killing of civilians is a “defensive measure”? – and do not bother to reply that this is somehow all the fault of “the West” – I hope you are entirely comfortable living in your fantasy world where a despotic gangster who poisons those who DARE to act/speak out against him, foments separatists, allies himself with benign governments such as those led by Bashir Assad – and he is “threatened” by having numerical superiority in nuclear weapons, tanks, aircraft and Army boots? – facing NATO some members of which until last month were skewered by the US for not spending their dues on their capacity to defend themselves – one of whom , Germany, initially sent 5,000 helmets to the Ukraine?

Pull the other one.

stewart
4 years ago
Reply to  chris-ds

STOP buying Russian fuel!!

You go first.

Fingal
Fingal
4 years ago
Reply to  chris-ds
  • They are supplying new weaponry, especially anti tank and antiaircraft weapons. Without them the fighting would probably be in central Kyiv by now.
  • Every war you say the West prolonged, was also prolonged by the Russians/Chinese etc. Why pick on the West?
  • Most of the West-backed wars were also UN wars, which means Russia also consented. None of the Russian ones were.
  • Russia is going to stop before it gets what it wants because it lacks the capacity to win it.
  • Economic sanctions alone would not bring Russia to the negotiating table.
chris-ds
chris-ds
4 years ago
Reply to  Fingal

Vietnam and Afghanistan the US (west) pulled out after great loss of life on all sides. If they pulled out earlier would have been the same bet result But less death.

karenovirus
4 years ago
Reply to  chris-ds

There was no great loss of American lives in Afghanistan and not much in the great scheme of things in Vietnam.
But those few were televised every night into every living room just as Covid mortality was decades later.

jcd
jcd
4 years ago
Reply to  karenovirus

58,220 American deaths in Vietnam seems a lot to me.

karenovirus
4 years ago
Reply to  jcd

Over how many years ?

Proveritate
4 years ago
Reply to  chris-ds

If they pulled out earlier would have been the same bet result But less death

Amazing thing hindsight.

Mark
4 years ago
Reply to  Proveritate

Funny how these criticisms are “hindsight” when there were many wise advisers at the time who said “don’t do this, it’s foolish”, but were ignored. Usually shouted down by people using exactly the kind of emotive nonsense we are hearing over Ukraine today – it’s “weak”, “treasonous”, “immoral” etc not to get involved.

This point came up in relation to Vietnam in yesterday’s interview of Col Macgregor:

I think Biden’s in a position that’s not very different from Lyndon Johnson in this sense. Lyndon Johnson wanted to end the war in Vietnam. In fact there’s a lot of evidence that he didn’t want to go there at all, but it didn’t make any difference because he was afraid that if he didn’t do those things that he would be outed as “soft on communism” and “a friend of the reds” and so forth. And so Johnson found it impossible to simply cut his losses and get out. Which was the right thing to do in 1968/69. All the generals privately said: “this is a waste of time. We’re not going to win it, let’s go.”

Former top Pentagon advisor Col. Doug Macgregor on Russia-Ukraine war

John
4 years ago
Reply to  chris-ds

The war in Vietnam started in the mid 1950’s with the French, as I believe Vietnam was part of French Indochina. Note that the USSR helped create the Peoples Republic of China after the Second World War by providing support to the Red Chinese against the White Chinese government.

186NO
186NO
4 years ago
Reply to  John

Try immediately after WWII as a war of liberation…..

186NO
186NO
4 years ago
Reply to  chris-ds

It appears that you think the Vietnam war started with the US sending in “advisers”…..try again after you have become better informed.

Start with the Pentagon Papers and then progress to “A Bright Shining Lie” for context.

karenovirus
4 years ago
Reply to  Fingal

Our media keep boasting about the crippling economic sanctions imposed on Russia but they are not the reason for her failure to obtain her stated objectives.

JXB
JXB
4 years ago
Reply to  karenovirus

I expect every European and American motorist is reminded of those crippling Russian sanctions when they visit filling stations, and householders too when their energy bills arrive.

karenovirus
4 years ago
Reply to  JXB

Still not the reason for Russian failure to achieve objectives.

JXB
JXB
4 years ago
Reply to  Fingal

Russia is outvoted on the UN Security Council 4 to 1. China usually abstains on everything, which leaves 3 Western votes (USA, UK, France) to win the motion.

Fingal
Fingal
4 years ago
Reply to  JXB

Doesn’t matter what the vote is, Russia has a veto and has used it.

Aletheia of Oceania
Aletheia of Oceania
4 years ago
Reply to  JXB

Sounds like an Ununited Nations Security Council to me.

Mark
4 years ago
Reply to  Fingal

Most of the West-backed wars were also UN wars, which means Russia also consented.

You tried this falsehood yesterday, and it was refuted then:

https://staging.dailysceptic.org/2022/03/16/the-morality-of-supplying-arms-to-ukraine/#comment-756157

Yugoslavia was flat illegal. Never any possibility of a UN resolution. Both China and Russia said (correctly) that force was not needed or justified and stated they would veto any resolution authorising it. NATO just ignored it, because “they don’t need no stinking law”.

Iraq was flat illegal. No UN authorisation because the French said outright that they did not consider war necessary and would veto any such resolution, leading to Blair’s disgraceful “unreasonable veto” lawlessness. Blair and Bush ignored it because “they don’t need no stinking law”.

On Libya the US sphere shamelessly exploited a resolution allowing for protection of civilians to enact regime change. So no, their action was not authorised by the UN.

In Syria there was no authorisation for the use of force when it was initiated and all kinds of dishonest, spurious “self defence” rationalisations were used.

So you are 0 for 4, basically.

Fingal
Fingal
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Russia has veto power at the UN and has used it many times. In the case of the Yugoslav wars, NATO did not intervene in the Bosnian or Croatian wars – not even supplying arms – and then had to watch Serbia (which had taken most of the military kit on the break up of Yugoslavia) bomb the crap out of Sarajevo and massacre refugees in Srebrenica. This was painful and it was the reason they did intervene in the Kosovo war, despite another Russian veto. They did not send it ground forces however. The first Iraq war was UN sanctioned. The second was insufficiently UN sanctioned. Libya was UN sanctioned but Russia argues they exceeded their brief. In Syria the Russian veto rendered the UN useless again. There was no NATO involvement. The US took no military action against Assad and largely avoided boots on the ground in Syria (instead relying on the Kurds and the Free Syrian Army). Syria ceased to exist as a coherent country during the war. The western war was entirely against Islamic State, while Russia/Assad largely fought Syrian rebel groups. You have of course missed out other UN actions from the list altogether. In… Read more »

Mark
4 years ago
Reply to  Fingal

So let’s see, you admit that the Yugoslav war was illegal but make excuses for it.

You admit that the attack on Iraq in 2003 was illegal.

You raise no contest to the point that the Libya attack was illegal.

On Syria you admit that there was no UN authorisation but pretend that all the money the US poured into supporting armed insurrectionists never happened and the direct cruise missile attack on Syria never happened either, while making excuses for them nevertheless.

Still 0 for 4.

Mumbo Jumbo
4 years ago
Reply to  Fingal

Gosh, Fingal, I wish I was as clever as you.

Fingal
Fingal
4 years ago
Reply to  Mumbo Jumbo

You’ve taken the first step – keep working at it, and who knows what you might achieve.

chris-ds
chris-ds
4 years ago
Reply to  chris-ds

What’s the end fans game here?

Emerald Fox
4 years ago
Reply to  chris-ds

As we speak ferries in the UK are being boarded by men in black balaclavas! Let’s hope the crews put up a good fight with those who are determined to replace them!
Will the Government send in the army? Or are they getting backhanders from this too? Did members of the Government know this was going to happen today?

ImpObs
4 years ago
Reply to  Emerald Fox

andother nail in the supply chains coffin then, seems they’re determined to starve us into rationing, where that old chestnut digital ID may be required to get food!

JXB
JXB
4 years ago
Reply to  chris-ds

Or alternatively mind our own business and fix our attention on clearing up the mess called our society and economy at home, and bring to trial our rulers who caused it and intend us more harm.

rayc
rayc
4 years ago

The author would do well to consider that many of those Ukrainian people currently “fighting for their freedom” are in the same category as the Russian conscripts – simply not allowed to leave their country by a despotic “freedom fighter” who denies the freedom of choice to others. Lately Zelensky promised a bullet in the head for those who “collaborate” with the Russians. Some freedom lover, is he?

D B
D B
4 years ago
Reply to  rayc

Also – see Ukrainians fleeing the country – if freedom is so ingrained and un-put-downable, the promise of a warm bed in Poland or Bognor Regis seems to be a mild sedative at least.

karenovirus
4 years ago
Reply to  D B

Most of the fleers shown on our telly lies bulletins are young women with children.

In contrast to those fleeing war torn Syria.

D B
D B
4 years ago
Reply to  karenovirus

Yes agree, but women are not women or something (need to check with Sir Keir) so by the thrust of the article they should be staying to fight.

rayc
rayc
4 years ago
Reply to  karenovirus

Only because men are not allowed to leave the country. Something which seems to be very under-reported by the freedom loving and gender equality promoting media for some strange reason.

tree
4 years ago
Reply to  rayc

It was reported strongly, when the the law was made.

karenovirus
4 years ago
Reply to  rayc

I would presume that UK young men were not allowed to leave the country during WWs1 & 2, except on Active Service.

tree
4 years ago
Reply to  karenovirus

It it mandatory to disbelieve what is reported on the news?

karenovirus
4 years ago
Reply to  tree

Who said ‘I believe’?

J4mes
4 years ago
Reply to  rayc

He’s a lot of things that the MSM neglect to talk about. I doubt he’s even in Ukraine, with every video of him indoors and wearing a T-shirt while his tan enhances every day. Apparently he’s a duel national with Israel.

rayc
rayc
4 years ago
Reply to  J4mes

He got visited by three moronic heads of state yesterday, so rest assured he is sitting in a bunker in Kiev. And as for the t-shirt, it is just a populist trick to show his idiot supporters how very much of a “common man hero” he is – just like them, ya know. It’s just strange that he is not running through the streets with molotov cocktails he warmly recommended to the citizens whose life and future he cares so much about… must not be so “equal” after all..

J4mes
4 years ago
Reply to  rayc

His bunker in Kiev must be warm – so warm it progressively gives him a tan. They must also have stashed a load of that expensive presidential decor down there just for the cameras to catch his regular freedom fighting John Conner speeches to the world.

Further to the point about him probably being in Israel (dual citizen – hot climate), interesting that Abramovich is also a dual citizen with Israel and also made a beeline for that country recently.

PhantomOfLiberty
PhantomOfLiberty
4 years ago
Reply to  rayc
Aletheia of Oceania
Aletheia of Oceania
4 years ago

Reminiscent of Biden getting jabbed in a White House mock up film studio.

PhantomOfLiberty
PhantomOfLiberty
4 years ago

We see so many fake things and most often they don’t try too hard even to cover up the inconsistencies – they know you can see it’s a fake if you have the critical resources – but trying it on is part of the thrill or something. They may even do I deliberately. There’s this picture of the 7/7 bombers arriving at Paddington – the figure at the back is in part in front of some railings, part behind. What you are looking at is seemingly impossible but they put the picture out all the same. It’s like O’Brien’s fingers in 1984.You have to deny the evidence of your own eyes. And if you point it out you are mad or worse.

tree
4 years ago
Reply to  rayc

Who is he fighting for freedom from?
Why is that bad?
Why does he have such a strong following in Ukraine?

Lister of Smeg
Lister of Smeg
4 years ago

Dear Toby Young,

Why does Ian Rons get a ‘right of reply’ to the other article arguing the opposite, and yet Dr Sam Bailey is denied hers to the (IMHO) hit piece by Dr Roger Watson last week?

How is THAT free speech, from the head of the so-called ‘Free Speech Union’?

Dale
Dale
4 years ago
Reply to  Lister of Smeg

Hear! Hear!

Dale
Dale
4 years ago
Reply to  Lister of Smeg

She’s already delivered a scathing rebuttal on her website … https://drsambailey.com/covid-19/the-covid-sceptics-who-spread-viral-dogma/

arany madar
arany madar
4 years ago
Reply to  Dale

Thanks so much for this. As i don’t check the Sceptic every day, i missed the hit piece.

D B
D B
4 years ago
Reply to  Dale

enjoyed that, she was fully entitled to right of reply – a bit disappointed the editorial team accepted the ad hominem riddled watson paper anyway.

Lister of Smeg
Lister of Smeg
4 years ago
Reply to  Dale

Still, she deserves to respond here with the same level of coverage that Dr Watson had, in order for Toby and his team to be seen to be fair and impartial. Until you gave that link, I’d bet good money most members here didn’t know about her article on her website. Many thanks for publicising it.

Until I emailed her (via her website) the day of the article, she may not have known about Dr Watson’s piece for some while, and thus significant reputational damage would’ve been done.

I think it’s sad and disappointing that Tobey or any of his colleagues have not officially responded to give their reason(s) why they have, in my eyes, not lived up to their free speech label. There’s no way that anyone can legitamtely call Dr Bailey (or her also Doctor husband) as being ‘quacks’.

IMHO them being one-sided in this harms their credibility in the free speech movement.

Lister of Smeg
Lister of Smeg
4 years ago
Reply to  Lister of Smeg

I should add that I was laughing throughout when I read Dr Bailey’s response article on her website – not because it was rubbish – quite the opposite in fact, because she doesn’t pull her punches in dismantling every one of Dr Wtson’s arguments, but does so in a very disarming way.

No wonder Dr Watson et al never want to either publicly debate Dr Bailey or allow her a right of reply on the outlets they write for.

GlassHalfFull
4 years ago
Reply to  Dale

I have read Bailey’s rebuttal to Dr. Watson and it is nonsense. “Watson has not provided any evidence for the existence of viruses here: his argument seems to be that other people believe in viruses, therefore viruses exist. Some people also believe in the tooth fairy.” Childish comparison. “Dr Stefan Lanka has also outlined the fallacies of “bio-weapons,” including fabricated “viruses” and how they have been used to drive fear into the public for many decades.” So Bailey is another one who thinks that the hundreds of bio-labs around the world are not working on deadly viruses and her “faith” that “viruses do not exist” will save her from a horrible death. “Like Watson, Kirsch rapidly retreated when the Baileys, Dr Tom Cowan, Dr Andy Kaufman, and Dr Stefan Lanka all offered to participate in a live debate with his chosen “experts”.” These people are very good at promoting themselves on video particularly Kaufman who is also a psychiatrist and understands Neuro Linguistic Programming. It is no wonder busy “real” scientists don’t want to debate with them on video. The way Kaufman hijacked a video conference and abused Dr Judy Mikovits was disgraceful. “How is a PCR result that “diagnoses”… Read more »

Dale
Dale
4 years ago
Reply to  GlassHalfFull

I can hardly blame the likes of Lanka and Bailey for abandoning the killing fields, AKA: healthcare.

tree
4 years ago
Reply to  Dale

You mean going to the dark side.

Dale
Dale
4 years ago
Reply to  tree

Don’t know about U.K., but in the US, healthcare is almost certainly the leading cause of death. Heart disease and cancer cry, “What about us ?”

GlassHalfFull
4 years ago
Reply to  Dale

Lanka was an obscure marine biologist and thankfully has nothing to do with healthcare.

Dale
Dale
4 years ago
Reply to  GlassHalfFull

Lanka lives YUGELY, in your head, rent-free.

GlassHalfFull
4 years ago
Reply to  Dale

Anyone who believes that viruses do not exist are an irrelevance.

J4mes
4 years ago
Reply to  GlassHalfFull

You missed the link to your website.

GlassHalfFull
4 years ago
Reply to  J4mes

Thanks for reminding me.

I’ve updated it with mention of her ridiculous reply to the Dr Watson article.

https://classicrecords1.wixsite.com/the-sceptic/post/sam-bailey-is-another-one-who-has-a-book-about-viruses-not-existing-to-sell-to-the-gullible

Dale
Dale
4 years ago
Reply to  GlassHalfFull

It appears to be more profitable to be a quack than a real doctor these days as shown by her co-conspirator Tom Cowan an ex doctor who handed in his license due to malpractice.”

Translation: Cowan transgressed and was excommunicated from the Cult of Pharmakeia.

GlassHalfFull
4 years ago
Reply to  Dale

The Medical Board of California complained about Cowan for giving an unlicensed drug to a cancer patient without seeing them or reading their notes in 2017 and told Cowan to either surrender his license as there was a disciplinary action against him or be put on probation for 5 years with extra training and banning him from treating cancer patients.

In other words he was “struck off” and is no longer a doctor and now makes a living peddling nonsense to the gullible.

https://quackwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/33/2021/02/cowan_license_surrender_2021.pdf

Dale
Dale
4 years ago
Reply to  GlassHalfFull

He folded and decided to comply … https://www.bitchute.com/video/P1QpCIkwF0Zr/

Lister of Smeg
Lister of Smeg
4 years ago
Reply to  GlassHalfFull

How would you know that without actually reading the book? You sound more like a paid-for troll to me.

Dale
Dale
4 years ago
Reply to  GlassHalfFull

Then pretend I’m a “virus.”

GlassHalfFull
4 years ago
Reply to  Dale

Misinformation is like a virus and needs to be corrected.

Dale
Dale
4 years ago
Reply to  GlassHalfFull

Your blog is misnamed. It should be named “The Believer.”

GlassHalfFull
4 years ago
Reply to  Dale

As I “believe” in evidence based science you could be right.

Lister of Smeg
Lister of Smeg
4 years ago
Reply to  GlassHalfFull

Where do you get that ‘fact’ from?

Lister of Smeg
Lister of Smeg
4 years ago
Reply to  GlassHalfFull

You are completely wrong on all counts there GHF. For one, the medical profession has specifically USED the PCR to ‘diagnose’ illness in ‘COVID-19’, despite all it being a lab tool to amplify certain (as yet conclusively identified) genetic sequences 40x. Ta-da – then you ‘have ‘ COVID according to doctors. You are also doubly wrong on that last point – Dr Bailey was fired from her very lucrative TV job because she said she wasn’t going to take the COVID jab – nothing more. I suspect she has a FAR lower income now compared to before. She has offered to debate these people, including on any platform, not just her own, but they always refuse. I’m sure she would debate Dr Wtson on Delingpod, or GB News, but I’d put good money on Watson saying no. As she also states in her response, that NZ non-clincian Watson refers to had to back-peddle all her claims because they were shown to be ALL incorrect when challenged by Dr Bailey and others. Now who’s the gullible one for believing the other side so blindly with ‘evidence’ that cannot stand up to more than a little scrutiny? I have also yet to… Read more »

GlassHalfFull
4 years ago
Reply to  Lister of Smeg

Every scientist knows that the PCR test can detect a virus but cannot test for disease.
It has been misused by governments to prolong the draconian measures for the Global Elite Reset.

Being a media whore is very lucrative these days.

As I’ve said they are very good in front of the camera where academics are probably not.
What they don’t do is put their ideas in a scientific paper for academics to scrutinize but they refuse to do it.

The NZ non-clinician you refer to is a highly respected scientist at Waikato University and has not “back-peddled” at all.
I agree with all her condemnations of Bailey but I disagree with her faith in vaccines as I have no faith in them whatsoever.

I will post my “evidence” as it is my stock reply to people like you who do not understand modern virology or “quacks” like Bailey in a separate reply.

Dale
Dale
4 years ago
Reply to  GlassHalfFull

“I love the doctors—they are dears;
But must they spend such years and years 
Investigating such a lot 
Of illnesses which no one’s got, 
When everybody, young and old, 
Is frantic with the common cold? 
And I will eat my only hat 
If they know anything of that!”
Herbert AP. The common cold. In: Look back and laugh. Methuen; London: 1960. pp. 115–117.

GlassHalfFull
4 years ago
Reply to  Lister of Smeg

The facts showing that viruses exist …… Viruses are a quirk of nature and there is scientific debate on whether they are living organisms or not. It has always been know that it is impossible to “isolate” a virus in the dictionary sense. (A similar concept to the quirk of nature in Quantum Mechanics whereby light can be a particle or a waveform). Viruses have been proved to exist by modern virology through experiments with a living isolated single human cell infected with a virus and shown to infect a different living healthy human cell without the virus. (Modern Virologists have always known that viruses cannot be “isolated” or “purified” in the dictionary sense of the word as viruses are only evident when attached to a living cell). Mock controls are done in almost every case using the same known liquid suspension or substrate. The experiment is written up in a scientific paper for peer review. Just search the internet for “virus cell culture paper” for thousands of these papers. No paper has had to be retracted. Viruses have been proved to exist via modern electron microscopy and photographed showing the virus which is similar but different to an exosome.… Read more »

Dale
Dale
4 years ago
Reply to  GlassHalfFull

Viruses cannot be isolated so they had to redefine the term, necessarily, because VIRUSES EXIST. Exosomes and viruses are similar, but exosomes are not viruses because VIRUSES EXIST. Stained artifacts are identified as viruses, via electron microscopy, because VIRUSES EXIST. Genome sequences are, in reality, mental constructs, but are not characterized as such because VIRUSES EXIST.

GlassHalfFull
4 years ago
Reply to  Dale

Whole genome sequences are precise scientific entities and are certainly NOT “mental constructs”.

Dale
Dale
4 years ago
Reply to  GlassHalfFull

Please stop saying ‘science.’ It’s nothing more than a shut-term these days. A genome sequence is a figment used to prove a figment.

Lister of Smeg
Lister of Smeg
4 years ago
Reply to  GlassHalfFull

The supposed ‘genome’ of COVID-19 was based on a soup of different material and then guessed by people using computer programmes. They DID NOT isolate one tiny particle, extract its DNA/RNA from the nucleus and only THEN seuqnce it for its entire genetic code. We in the West also used (and put our faith in) that ‘information’ coming from the Chinese, who have a long history of making stuff up on an industrial scale (even more than in the West). And NOT ONE proven, verified scientific clinical experiment to prove that said ‘virus’ caused illness in people. Otherwise that $100k prize would’ve had to be paid, and it wasn’t, WAS IT? Nice try at the smoke and mirrors, GHF. Maybe should be working for Putin or Biden as their PR person – currently they both need a LOT of help. I wonder if you’d be up for a debate with Dr Bailey? You appear to say you are some kind of expert – but it’s far more difficult hiding behind anonymity on a forum. I’m just a humble engineer who can spot BS a mile away and has a keen, inquizative mind. It seems people on your side of the… Read more »

GlassHalfFull
4 years ago
Reply to  Lister of Smeg

I’m also a qualified engineer with an enquiring mind.

I spent 18 months on the David Icke forum arguing with people like you who do not understand modern virology and modern “whole” gene sequencing (NOT computer generated) until the moderators decided that my exposure that the “emperor has no clothes” was too much and was harming the credibility of David Icke.

I am willing to go through all my archives and answer any questions you may have.

I hope you are not like the others who have to cling onto fringe views just to make themselves feel important and be a member of a small but elite club of fellow devotees.

Lister of Smeg
Lister of Smeg
4 years ago
Reply to  GlassHalfFull

I won’t ever be visiting a forum by the (IMHO) tinfoil hat-wearing actual nutbag that is David Icke. This site/forum is supposed to be about questioning things and finding answers, not smeraing people you just disagree with about issues that are in dispute. You, like Dr Watson, eagerly lumps Dr Bailey and her colleagues into the same group as Icke by virtue of something that they in some way both believe, but that rather like saying ‘we both believe tomorrow is Saturday’ and then saying because I do then you’re a nutbag. Sorry, but that doesn’t cut it. That’s a smear campaign. If you went on a ‘mainstream’ medical forum, it would be you being called the nutbag by most there. The difference here is that I’m not calling you one – I’m saying, as Dr Bailey does, that the evidence in our opinion (and hers and her colleagues is far more important than mine given their own medical background) is far from compelling. It doesn’t mean your’re wrong, but we don’t think the methods you cite show what you say it does. If you want this ‘debate’ to end, I’d suggest you contact Dr Bailey and debate her in… Read more »

Dale
Dale
4 years ago
Reply to  GlassHalfFull

Then there are those people who cling to cough and kill grandma.

Lister of Smeg
Lister of Smeg
4 years ago
Reply to  GlassHalfFull

Oh dear. Not ONE fact there – otherwise you’d cite the papers (not newspapers, but scientific ones) that back up your opinions. Note that when those trying (and failing) to debunk people like Dr Bailey, she and her colleagues easily show their ‘facts’ – including references to ‘experiements’ to be complete rubbish, often using the very ‘scientific methods’ they claim to cherish. The difference between people like me, Dr Bailey and your good self is that we are actual sceptics – we’re aren’t saying this never exists, but that the methods virologists and others refer to that ‘say’ they do and more importantly do harm via certain person-to-person transmission has yet to be properly proven, because the ‘methods’ used are not valid to do so conclusively. You yourself actually admit that in one of your ‘comments’ (more a rant, heavy on bluster and light on factual information and logic). That you then admit that a German court found in favour of Dr Lanka because those saying they had ‘proved’ the existence of COVID-19 had in fact not done so, but then you appear to pretend it was all some ‘technicality’. Either it was proven or it wasn’t. And the court… Read more »

GlassHalfFull
4 years ago
Reply to  Lister of Smeg

There are thousands upon thousands of papers proving the existence of viruses that’s why I gave you the phrase to look for in an internet search.

Scientists are always doing mock control experiments. For example, this experiment finds cytopathic effects specific to SARS-CoV-2 in human cell lines and, of course, includes a mock control with the same culturing conditions that just doesn’t have the virus added. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-17796-z

I’m with true sceptics with gravitas like Mike Yeadon, Judy Mikovits, Dr Andrew Wakefield etc.
You’re with cranks like Lanka, Kaufman, Cowan and Bailey.

Lister of Smeg
Lister of Smeg
4 years ago
Reply to  GlassHalfFull

That’s your opinion – something you have yet to prove. Dr Bailey has debunked what you’ve been saying. Again, would you be happy to personally debate her? I’m sure you could agree a neutral place to do so.

Unlike you, I’m not saying I’m going to be 100% until the heat death of the universe. I’m mainly asking questions and critiquing what you and others say.

That you call me and Dr Bailey ‘cranks’ just because we have a different (but considered) opinion based on actual information rather than Chinese whispers is essentially the same argument Dr Watson gave. I note that he also was too scared to debate Dr Bailey.

Dale
Dale
4 years ago
Reply to  GlassHalfFull

Fortunately, the REAL enquiring minds don’t have to pour over “thousands and thousands” of papers to disabuse themselves the modern equivalent of demonology. Once you’ve peruses a dozen or so you realize the methods are similar and that “isolation”, for the virologist, is a six weeks old bowl of clam chowder.

186NO
186NO
4 years ago
Reply to  GlassHalfFull

No scientist has ever said a PCR test can diagnose a disease, it has always been known that it can detect a virus but not a disease.”

I think you need to do more research; I think you will find that Kary Mullis pointed out , more than once, that a PCR cannot detect a virus, only a small segment of genetic code depending how the test is set up; I seem to remember that he stated it was impossible for a PCR test to detect a whole virus, or an infectious virus and cannot distinguish between a live or dead particle. But don’t take my word for it, I am not a scientist.

GlassHalfFull
4 years ago
Reply to  186NO

I’ve done the research.
The PCR test is highly specific at detecting a virus via a unique fragment of the genetic code.
Kary Mullis has been misquoted and quoted out of context many times.
He was never going to rubbish the test he invented and for which he won the Nobel Prize.
It is governments who have misused the results of the PCR test.

Lister of Smeg
Lister of Smeg
4 years ago
Reply to  GlassHalfFull

‘Misquoted’ – sure, in a video wher HE himself said it was not a diagnostic tool and should NOT be used as such.

It wasn’t just government who have used them to do bad things, e.g. justify lockdowns, school closures, working from home when not needed (especially in the under65 age group) but scientists and clinicians who said they ‘discovered/ or ‘confirmed’ the existence of COVID-19 and the variants.

As Dr Bailey says, its using circular reasoning to ‘prove’ something.

Sounds like you need to brush up on your ‘research’. Presumably that’s why you won’t debate Dr Bailey yourself, because you know it’ll be found out in 5 minutes flat.

GlassHalfFull
4 years ago
Reply to  Lister of Smeg

Scientists have always known it is not a “diagnostic” tool and I have never said it was.

Governments appoint their scientific advisers and there were plenty to choose from who would have used the PCR tests in a more nuanced way (if at all). Therefore the blame lies squarely with the government and the scientific advisers they chose to listen to.

You really need to research Bailey as she is talking rubbish.

It is a very fringe theory with her and a handful of others who are making a fortune from the gullible.

There is no scientific basis for their claims and they are regarded as an irrelevance.

You may think you are in this special small group who have discovered something very profound but you are not.

The scientific community, even the sceptical one’s, laugh at them.

Lister of Smeg
Lister of Smeg
4 years ago
Reply to  GlassHalfFull

Oh dear. If you may recall, many scientific discoveries followed theories that were often considered ‘heresy’ by the peers of the person advocating for them. Just because someone is in ‘the majority’ doesn’t mean they are also in the right on an issue. I would remind you that your own opinions on part of the ‘sceptic’ issues is at present thought of by the ‘mainstream’ in science in medicine exactly as heretical. The difference is that I’m not mocking you for holding such an opinion (I and others just think it’s incorrect or not proven), but I am criticisng how you respond to people who DO disagree and put forward alternative opinions or ask questions. Frankly you’re no better than the devoted Fauciites who want to cancel everyone who critiques their so-called ‘facts’, because you don’t even entertain being wrong, probably because your ego won’t allow it. That you don’t actually cite anything to back up your claims rather adds credence to Dr Bailey’s line of questioning / reasoning, plus you, Dr Watson or anyone else don’t have the courage to debate Dr Bailey in person – and I would suspect she’d agree for it all to be on neutral… Read more »

GlassHalfFull
4 years ago
Reply to  Lister of Smeg

Lanka, Kaufman, Cowan and Bailey all gave up their original careers, or were sacked, as it is more lucrative to their egos to become media whores selling nonsense to the gullible. They are in a minority because they are plain wrong and no they are not in the vanguard of some new enlightening discovery. They have been proved to be wrong on many occasions. Busy medics and scientists don’t have the time to critique their outlandish claims and when they do the “viruses do not exist” mob abuse them as was seen on the academics website in Waikato University. Fortunately a researcher who also is a psychiatrist with an ear to the scientific and medical community has debunked all their wild claims in this series of articles …… Frank Visser, The Corona Conspiracy: Combatting Disinformation about the Coronavirus Part 1: Corona, Oxygen, 5G: The Paranoid Worldview of David Icke, April 2020 Part 2: Debunking Andrew Kaufman’s Virus Equals Exosome Hypothesis, May 2020 Part 3: We Need to Talk about Exosomes, May 2020 Part 4: Why Viruses Are Not Exosomes, June 2020 Part 5: The Alternative Facts of Virus Denialism, June 2020 Part 6: The Subtle Science of Whole Genome Sequencing,… Read more »

J4mes
4 years ago
Reply to  Dale

Toby should feel equally embarrassed when reading her rebuttal, since every quotation she uses also provides the source DS.

Note to Dr Watson: in all the virology textbooks I’ve looked at, the method of proving the existence of a virus does not include ‘beliefs held by Dr Mike Yeadon’.

Damn. Dr Watson. I wonder if Toby will provide you a platform to respond?

Dale
Dale
4 years ago
Reply to  J4mes

Sam takes no prisoners.

John Dee
4 years ago
Reply to  Lister of Smeg

It’s a reasonable question…

annieob
annieob
4 years ago

I’m a bit baffled by what the main thrust of this argument is, because it jumps about a lot. Is it that supplying weapons won’t prolong the war, and won’t make it more liable to spread? Or is it that it will have one (or both) of those effects, but that the consequent deaths are ‘worth it’ for freedom? If so, is this argument relying on an assumption that all those who die (in the prolonged or extended war) will have freely chosen to die (or risk death) for what they consider to be freedom? (It certainly seems to be implying that those killed in Syria chose to die for freedom.) Or, is it that supplying weapons will prolong or extend the war (or both), and that innocent people will die as a result, against their will and without choosing to sacrifice their lives for freedom – but that the extended duration of the war will deter future aggressors? In other words, that Ukrainians must die to make the world safer for others in future? So our supply of weapons is entirely selfish? Any one of these arguments is possible but it’s not at all clear which is being proposed.… Read more »

rayc
rayc
4 years ago
Reply to  annieob

Yup, the author believes that it is “the Ukrainians” who have chosen to fight. In reality it is “president Zelensky” who made this choice for them – and refuses to make any other choice and even goes as far as threatening his own citizens should they not comply. I really don’t see much difference in his methods from those of the aggressor.

karenovirus
4 years ago
Reply to  rayc

He is waging war as he was elected to do.

rayc
rayc
4 years ago
Reply to  karenovirus

No, he is just totally out of his depth here. You can hear it in any of his speeches.

tree
4 years ago
Reply to  rayc

You should say chosen to defend.

ebygum
4 years ago
Reply to  annieob

And in relation to Iran…haven’t we just paid them £400 million pounds? Presumably for mentioning this I’m an ‘oik’?

stewart
4 years ago
Reply to  annieob

What really makes the article hard to engage with (and the Noah Carl one too) is this extremely childish idea of trying to establish what is morally right and wrong, as if the top priority is making extra sure we are the good guys.

We aren’t anything. Most people aren’t anything. Except for a handful of psychos running things (and we really don’t know who they are), none of us make any decisions, have no say and are simply being dragged along for the ride by these “decision makers” having a pissing match.

The moral implications of sending weapons to Ukrainians is for those who will make the decision. I refuse to be lumped in with them in any way. And I’m not going to engage in a debate about whether this particular one thing is a moral or immoral. What about all the rest of it? The meddling by both west and Russia in Ukrainian politics for years if not decades. Is that moral or immoral? What about the inability to reach a diplomatic solution, moral or immoral?

Give me a freakin break.

rayc
rayc
4 years ago
Reply to  stewart

Correct, the moral indignation should be against the so called “leaders”, and should come from those who are are “led”. But it never is.

Instead it always one “leader” inciting “his” people against another group while looking for enemies to cover his own psychopathic ass and convincing them that it is “in their own interest”.

This arbitrage game of a psychopathic minority against the normal majority has worked throughout history and there are no slightest signs that it is ever going to change.

stewart
4 years ago
Reply to  rayc

Not while we fall for debates like this one about whether it’s morally right or wrong to arm Ukrainians.

I suppose people get into it because it gives them a false sense of agency. Yes, yes, we should arm Ukrainian because it’s the morally right thing.

Yeah, right. “We” ain’t going to do shit. Everything is getting done to us, mostly shafting. But hey, we should consider ourselves happy, because we are being defended from Putin who is a horrible mad, dictator who would shaft us even harder.

rayc
rayc
4 years ago
Reply to  stewart

Yep, the good old false dichotomy trick. Just like “either we vaccinate everyone by force or we will have to impose lockdowns again next winter”. Once you see through it once, you notice the same shitty tactic used everywhere. The trouble is, it works.

Fingal
Fingal
4 years ago
Reply to  stewart

We should arm Ukraine because their defeat would severely undermine European security. OK, it’s morally positive too, but that’s not sufficient reason by itself.

Kristina
Kristina
4 years ago

Thank you Ian for this! Trully a joy to read and finally a bit more balanced view on DS. Now lets see how many dislikes I am going to get from the Crew of pro-putin ‘opinion formers’, who seem to be investing lot of time on those forums in the last three weeks. If they think its working even a tiny bit, they must … missinformed themselves!

Mumbo Jumbo
4 years ago
Reply to  Kristina

Why would anyone downvote you. You are allowed to have an opinion, everyone is entited to get it wrong.

JXB
JXB
4 years ago
Reply to  Mumbo Jumbo

‘… allowed to have an opinion…’

That is what down votes are.

tree
4 years ago
Reply to  JXB

A down vote is seen as disagreeing or not approving.
Many use it when only facts are presented, just because it is from the other side.

There is no justification, but they do it anyway.

tree
4 years ago
Reply to  Mumbo Jumbo

Well it woul appear that 27 out of 37 did downvote. Kristina’s assesment of this group would appear to be correct

crisisgarden
4 years ago
Reply to  Kristina

I don’t know what you’ve been reading but I haven’t read a single ‘pro-Putin’ word anywhere on this site. Not a word. What I have seen is attempts to contextualise the conflict and gain an understanding of how things got to this point. That is not ‘pro-Putin’ unless you’re an editorial in The Sun. Why is it not OK to discuss things objectively?

Fingal
Fingal
4 years ago
Reply to  crisisgarden

The entire argument that conquest by Putin is preferable to freedom is itself a pro Putin position.

stewart
4 years ago
Reply to  Fingal

And who is making that argument?

tree
4 years ago
Reply to  stewart

It would seem most people on here.

JXB
JXB
4 years ago
Reply to  Fingal

Straw man.

rayc
rayc
4 years ago
Reply to  crisisgarden

Ah, but you should have learned from the pandemic that “everyone who is not with us is against us” – the principle lives on.

crisisgarden
4 years ago
Reply to  rayc

You’re not wrong. You’re right. There is no in between.

tree
4 years ago
Reply to  rayc

Same principle reversed.. sceptics are against mainstream.

tree
4 years ago
Reply to  crisisgarden

Go and look for a comment saying the invasion was wrong. See how many you find.

Now see how many say it is all the west’s fault.

Beowulf
Beowulf
4 years ago
Reply to  tree

Look no further – the invasion was wrong. And yes, the West (NATO/EU/UK/USA) are largely responsible.

Fingal
Fingal
4 years ago
Reply to  Beowulf

Yes, in the same sort of way that women are responsible for getting raped. They take ridiculous chances.

Liberty4UK
Liberty4UK
4 years ago

The two opposing factions are Putin and his government, their backers, and their objectives against Zelensky and his government, their backers, and their objectives. It is unrealistic to say it is a government leader against the people of another country, as wars don’t happen that way. Until one analyses these governments’ agendas, with arguments pro and anti on both sides, one isn’t addressing the matter in any real way. I am afraid both sides will produce emotive propaganda. That’s what happens in war time, and why diplomats are not journalists.

And all deaths are too many. That of course would include putative mass death and illness caused by any chemical weapons spread by migratory birds or other means, specifically adapted to be deadly to the Slavs, should they exist. Assessing whether they did exist, with arguments pro and contra would be a worthy journalistic exercise.

lordsnooty
4 years ago

re: This is an aggressors’ charter that is, in itself, utterly immoral. Simplified, it says: “Because I can hurt your people, you must surrender, or else you will be causing them harm.” Or, “Don’t stand up to bullies: they might hurt you.”

i cannot see how it is in our interests to have a hostile group of Americans, i.e. NATO, out east trying to intimidate Russia.

Unless you are Putin’s priest, Morality of lack thereof is immaterial for a nation pursuing her interests. It is simply Russia’s duty to do that.That’s how Russia grew so big, by pursuing her interests.As Lord Palmerston said: We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow.
House of Commons, 1 March 1848

What sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander,

lordsnooty
4 years ago

it’s far too soon to know if Russia’s acts are good or bad, we may never know? If Russia is still the biggest country in the world in 30 years we may conclude they were good.

rayc
rayc
4 years ago
Reply to  lordsnooty

As we know from all previous wars, it will only depend on who is doing the concluding.

Fingal
Fingal
4 years ago
Reply to  lordsnooty

Have you worked out if Hitler was wrong yet? I guess because he lost, you’d say wrong. But what if he’d won?

rayc
rayc
4 years ago

If you want to understand this war, you should not be thinking of what “the people” want, you should be thinking about what Zelensky and Putin do not want. These amiable fellows both do not want to end up in prison or dead by actions of “the people” as a reward what what they have done so far. This is fully sufficient to explain why they behave as they do.

Mumbo Jumbo
4 years ago

There seems to be a lot of supposition on behalf of the author about the views of the Ukrainian people. He does need to consider the inhabitants of the East of the country whose wishes have been ignored for years.

karenovirus
4 years ago
Reply to  Mumbo Jumbo

Many of those ‘inhabitants of the East‘ were placed there by Stalin partly to fill the gaps left after the Holdomore (sp? Ukrainian interwar famine created by Stalin) but mostly to Russify the zone for his political benefit.

Mumbo Jumbo
4 years ago
Reply to  karenovirus

That doesn’t change the situation now. Blaming Stalin is futile.

tree
4 years ago
Reply to  Mumbo Jumbo

Will Putin ask the Ukranians?

Free Lemming
4 years ago

So the argument here:

  1. Completely ignores the nuances of this conflict. Regardless of what MSM tells us there are very much to sides to the story here, and that in itself makes morals very subjective.
  2. Ignores the hypocrisy of the West (and the hypocrisy of the author). An ‘aggressor’ is in the eyes of the beholder, and I’m pretty sure many of our regime change campaigns have seen us as the aggressor.
  3. Ignores pragmatism. Instead choosing purist ideologies based on todays virtue-signalling obsession.

A lovely piece for The Guardian though.

JXB
JXB
4 years ago
Reply to  Free Lemming

You could add: Further damage the economy you already wrecked, by self-harming sanctions in pursuit of…. what?

What is tte the benefit, if Russia ‘loses’, to the British people you are impoverishing?

Star
4 years ago

Asking what the West should do is a bit like asking what the Yorkshire Ripper or Myra Hindley should have done.

Great for seminars.

The bravery and self-sacrifice shown by every strata of the Ukrainian military and civilian population has at times brought me to tears, and the nobility of their cause (apart their, ahem, surrender to the EU) shines brightly through the fog of war.

Crap poetry rocks! 🙂 But the singular remains “stratum” regardless.

karenovirus
4 years ago
Reply to  Star

Young girl walking across the dark and drizzly moor with Ian Brady says.
“Is it far to go? it’s really cold and spooky”.

Brady replies
“You think this is spooky?”
“I’ll have to walk back on me own”.

JXB
JXB
4 years ago
Reply to  Star

I was brought to tears by the bravery and self-sacrifice show by the British population cowering under their beds for two years.

karenovirus
4 years ago

Putins actions over the past decade are reminding me of Bismark in 19thC
Germany with his limited war here:Grorgia instead of Audtria: small war there Chea/Denmark followed by a larger war against a powerful entity:France/newy armed Ukraine for the purpose of a major land grab (Alsace Lorraine/East Ukraine).
Copied as if following a school textbook.

Top of my head stuff, badly expressed and constrained by edit time limit on DS.

crisisgarden
4 years ago

I’m sorry but this article is just so out of touch with reality. Putting aside the horrors of war for a moment (if that is allowed in this media fuelled emotional hate frenzy), this conflict is happening as a direct result of western interference in Ukraine’s affairs. There is no inherent reason why Russia should be at war with its neighbour. Talk about Russian imperial ambitions is for the birds – silly unfounded guesswork. Whether you like it or not, Russia has attacked because western powers have decided to use the country as a battering ram (and biological weapons lab), to fulfil their own corporate interests. The US and NATO need enemies, and they have worked very hard for 30 years to make Russia just that. The 2014 coup was a Western-backed coup, and anyone who says otherwise is naive and silly – they were caught red-handed. Russia for its part has been crystal clear about what they want and their demands have been reasonable. No NATO expansion to their border. The argument Putin has made in countless speeches and statements is that this upsets the balance of nuclear powers that kept the peace for decades after WW2. This has… Read more »

ebygum
4 years ago
Reply to  crisisgarden

I am no expert but I don’t think Russia has used anything like the amount of fire power it could have……arming the Ukrainians will continue the conflict until they eventually stop and come to an agreement…but millions of civilians will have died in the process…..and you will have the same outcome….

Fingal
Fingal
4 years ago
Reply to  crisisgarden

Russia for its part has been crystal clear about what they want and their demands have been reasonable. No NATO expansion to their border. 

For a sceptic, you’re amazingly trusting of a man who has yet to admit there’s actually a war going on.

Putin has repeatedly said he regards Ukrainian people as Russian, and that Ukraine is ‘indivisible’ from Russia.

Up until the revolution, Ukraine was ruled by a Putin stooge. It was the loss of that control that provoked seizure of the Crimea etc. In neighbouring Belarus, Putin still controls a proxy government which has no meaningful independence.

The moment Russia’s neighbours try to move away from a Russian proxy government, Putin intervenes.

karenovirus
4 years ago
Reply to  Fingal

Well considered argument but which ‘revolution’ do you refer ?

Fingal
Fingal
4 years ago
Reply to  karenovirus

Maidan

crisisgarden
4 years ago
Reply to  Fingal

The Maidan was a violent western-backed coup against a democratically elected president within which we have the US Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs caught on tape naming the State Department’s preferred puppet government.
It took 8 years for Russia to recognise the independence of Donetsk and Luhansk; How does that fit with your ideas about expansionist Imperialist Russia?
To repeat what I’ve said elsewhere, I’m not trying to claim this war is moral and right; I’m simply arguing that in cold geopolitical terms, it’s understandable, rational and was entirely predictable to anyone who has been paying attention.

tree
4 years ago
Reply to  crisisgarden

The recognition was to establish a pretext for the invasion. Couldn’t be more blatant.

Fingal
Fingal
4 years ago
Reply to  crisisgarden

The tape shows that Maidan was not a US/EU coup. All it shows it that the US had a preference for who should be the new president and was trying by persuasion to make it happen.

stewart
4 years ago
Reply to  Fingal

You know, I am willing to accept that argument. I have no doubt Russia meddles in the politics of it’s neighbours. No doubt whatsoever. As does the US. Both with mixed results. (Remember how Obama campaigned in favour of Remain?)

The question that needs to be answered is in which way is Russia different from the US in considering it a matter of national security to keep its strategic rivals away from its borders?

Fingal
Fingal
4 years ago
Reply to  stewart

Yes the US does meddle. Sometimes that meddling is welcome. Sometimes not. I’m struggling to think of any meddling from Russia that was desirable.

I don’t accept Russia’s right to regard all its neighbours as mere ‘buffer’ states, with Russian control over their military capacity and foreign policy.

For NATO to attack Russia (against its own constitution) 30 democracies would have to vote for it. I’m willing to bet a very, very large amount of money that could never happen.

But for Putin, there was a fair chance NATO would have disbanded of its own accord in a few years.

The removal of Ukraine does not create a buffer between Russia and NATO – it removes it.

crisisgarden
4 years ago
Reply to  Fingal

‘I’m struggling to think of any meddling from Russia that was desirable.’

I’m struggling to think of any meddling from Russia that wasn’t made up by Hilary Clinton or Rachel Maddow.

Fingal
Fingal
4 years ago
Reply to  crisisgarden

Think harder.

crisisgarden
4 years ago
Reply to  Fingal

‘Up until the revolution, Ukraine was ruled by a Putin stooge.’

Cartoonish analysis that (a) Robs the Ukrainian population of agency to elect whomever they want democratically and (b) Mischaracterises a US backed coup which Victoria Nuland was caught on tape orchestrating.

Fingal
Fingal
4 years ago
Reply to  crisisgarden

Go back and have another listen. If this was her coup, it’s funny she never says so.

What she does talk about is her preferred candidate as to replace by persuasion a president who has already gone.

crisisgarden
4 years ago
Reply to  Fingal

“Yats is the guy”
I believe there are four senior Democrats whose children have decidedly shady business interests in Ukraine. Clearly the Americans have been using as their own little playground since at least 2014. This is an outrageous and disgusting abuse of state power.

Fingal
Fingal
4 years ago
Reply to  crisisgarden

Putin is possibly the most obscenely rich man in the world, and he got there by ripping off the Russian people on their own hydrocarbons. In the time that he controlled Ukraine, he did it through massive bribes linked to the transit of Russian gas across Ukraine. Anything else pales in comparison.

karenovirus
4 years ago
Reply to  crisisgarden

Putin endorsed Russian action in Eastern Ukraine is justified in the same way as Hitler taking the Sudetenland as a prelude to WW2.

Bringing joint nationals into the warm embrace of the motherland.
We have all heard or read about The Wandering Jew, so take a look at the Wandering Russian ( not actually wandering, forcibly relocated would be more acurate).

stewart
4 years ago
Reply to  karenovirus

Really? So which do you think is more likely:

(a) This is just the start and Putin intends to invade the rest of Europe, or at the very least sizeable bit of it.
(b) He’s defending a red line which he has warned for years is a red line he was going to defend no matter what.

Proveritate
4 years ago
Reply to  stewart

This kind of false dichotomy argument is poor. Offering a completely implausible position (i.e. ‘that Putin intends to invade the rest of Europe’) doesn’t make your other position more likely. It might also be implausible.

tree
4 years ago
Reply to  Proveritate

Indeed, quite stupid to reduce to a multiple choice question.

Fingal
Fingal
4 years ago
Reply to  stewart

Putin will only attack non NATO members. He already has Belarus, and is trying for Ukraine.

PissedOffDad
4 years ago
Reply to  crisisgarden

You took the words right out of my mouth. Sums it up perfectly. I regard the Ukrainian flag as the new face nappy i.e. a virtual signalling rag co-opted by evil manipulators. Zelensky is a coke-addled puppet leading “his” country to doom knowing full well he can escape to his Florida mansion any time it suits.

loopDloop
loopDloop
4 years ago

The important thing is to have an opinion. If COVID taught us anything, it’s that everyone is their own best expert. Never mind whether you can spell epidemiology or not, or find Ukraine on a map, that’s not the point, the point is you have social media, and you are terrifically important. So, come on, what’s your opinion on the War? Who should do what? Who’s right? Who’s wrong? The local primary school has blue and yellow balloons tied to the fence. Hooray, they support Ukraine! That’s the spirit. Now children, what about climate change? Ooooh, we’re against that. Very good! Racism? Bad. Well done. Back to the war. So you’re in favour of the thing, and against the other thing? Well done you, although IN MY OPINION you’re overlooking something else. Well, I’m off to strut around with my chest puffed out down on social media and make sure everybody knows which side I’m on.

karenovirus
4 years ago
Reply to  loopDloop

Best thing I’ve read this year loopDloop, thank you so very much.
Saved prosperity.

Londo Mollari
4 years ago

The “moral necessity” will escalate to Russian counter measures which will possibly result in the annihilation of many millions or billions, including Ukrainians.

If there is a moral necessity to do anything, it is to negotiate and seek peace, which Moscow has been seeking to do for many years.

This is an existential matter for Russia, so it would be foolish for western armchair generals to conclude that Russia is bluffing.

crisisgarden
4 years ago
Reply to  Londo Mollari

If there is a moral necessity to do anything, it is to negotiate and seek peace, which Moscow has been seeking to do for many years.’

Agree 100%.

karenovirus
4 years ago
Reply to  crisisgarden

“. . . seek peace, which Moscow has been seeking for many years”.
By invading Chechnia, Georgia and eleswhere first ?

tree
4 years ago
Reply to  karenovirus

Why would 5 people disapprove of these actual facts. They are facts, for goodness sake.

Fingal
Fingal
4 years ago
Reply to  Londo Mollari

Given that the West won’t even impose a no fly zone, there’s no chance it would be first-user in a nuclear war. Can you say the same for Putin?

stewart
4 years ago
Reply to  Fingal

Well we can all speculate.

But what we do know for a fact is that only one country has ever been a first user of nuclear weapons. And it sure wasn’t Russia.

JMR747
JMR747
4 years ago
Reply to  stewart

Possibly not the best argument – only the US had them at the time and they rightly or wrongly believed they shorten a war that was killing millions. If the Japanese had equivalent weapons to launch at the US do you believe they would still have bomber Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

tree
4 years ago
Reply to  JMR747

Correct analysis.

Beowulf
Beowulf
4 years ago
Reply to  tree

Nevertheless what Stewart said was true and you have previously expressed your support of unnuanced facts.

Fingal
Fingal
4 years ago
Reply to  stewart

You can’t have mutually assured destruction when only one side has weapons.

Russia has lots of battlefield nuclear weapons. These aren’t for strategic deterrence.

Mark
4 years ago
Reply to  Fingal

The US sphere won’t impose a no fly zone because it has no sufficient interests at stake in the Ukraine to justify risking escalation potentially to nuclear war. For Russia, the stakes are existential, which is precisely when a state is likely to resort to nuclear weapons, if pushed

We already know that the US will use nukes if it’s safe for it to do so, because it’s the only state that has already done so.

tree
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Why is failing to acquire Ukraine an existential threat to Russia?

Mark
4 years ago
Reply to  tree

NATO Ukraine, the likely result of a Russian defeat there, is a clear existential threat to Russia. So is regime change by colour revolution, the option the US sphere is probably expecting now.

tree
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

When did NATO attack a country?

Mark
4 years ago
Reply to  tree

LOL! As though it hasn’t already been pointed out to you repeatedly here over the past couple of days!

Fingal
Fingal
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Yes, Ukraine matters more to Russia than the US. But it’s not existential for either party. Russia has the option to become like any other European state which exercises no control over its neighbours.

The US has fought many states that don’t have nuclear weapons so your statement is plain wrong. The moral prohibition against nuclear weapons only came about as a result of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Whoever developed the weapons first was always going to use them.

Mark
4 years ago
Reply to  Fingal

“But it’s not existential for either party. Russia has the option to become like any other European state which exercises no control over its neighbours.” Yes, Russia has the option to become another serf state for the US sphere elites, but my impression is they don’t much like what they see here. Obviously some do – there are always greedy people willing to sacrifice their culture and liberty for material gains, but as a whole the country does not, and certainly the rulers do not, mostly, so far, or they would have kowtowed before now. (By the way, don’t bother with that laughable nonsense about “not exercising control over its neighbours” – that’s exactly what the EU is all about. Go and ask in Hungary and Poland about that.) “The US has fought many states that don’t have nuclear weapons so your statement is plain wrong. The moral prohibition against nuclear weapons only came about as a result of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Whoever developed the weapons first was always going to use them.” Make excuses all you want, but the reality is that the US had no compunction about destroying German and Japanese cities full of women and children by… Read more »

crisisgarden
4 years ago
Reply to  Fingal

Given that the West won’t even impose a no fly zone’

Even? Listen to what you’re saying – do you know how no-fly zones work?

Mark
4 years ago
Reply to  crisisgarden

Clearly not. “Try to impose a no fly zone” would be more apt.

karenovirus
4 years ago
Reply to  Londo Mollari

Russia does have first strike capability which it may regard as its only defence against the overwhelmingly superior fire power of NATO regardless of nuclear power.

BBC and ITV Daily Lies still warning that Russia may, might, could launch first strike chemical attacks?

tree
4 years ago
Reply to  karenovirus

it isn’t much of a stretch..remember Syria…

Nearhorburian
Nearhorburian
4 years ago
Reply to  tree

Proved to be lies.

crisisgarden
4 years ago
Reply to  tree

Ha ha! Douma? Oh yes of course.

tree
4 years ago
Reply to  Londo Mollari

Yeah..Russia is well known for the peaceful nature.

crisisgarden
4 years ago
Reply to  tree

You’re right; everyone knows they are genetically predisposed to savagery.

tree
4 years ago
Reply to  crisisgarden

The state certainly is.

Fingal
Fingal
4 years ago
Reply to  Londo Mollari

No, it’s an existential matter for Ukraine.

Ok, and maybe Putin too.

DJ Dod
4 years ago

I wonder how the USA would respond if Canada or Mexico wanted to enter into a defensive military alliance with Russia or China?

karenovirus
4 years ago
Reply to  DJ Dod

Mexico had an interesting relationship with France along those lines in the late 19th Century.

peyrole
peyrole
4 years ago

I had to check Noah’s article, because I thought I must have misread it after reading this one from Ian.
But no, I read Noah’s correctly.
Noah’s main thrust was , unless there is a good argument otherwise, the sensible , pragmatic approach to Ukraine prior to the guns being fired, was to recognise the concerns of its neighbour, apply something akin to the Munrow principle , and negotiate a neutral status and something like Corsica’s request of France for autonomy for the ‘russian’ easterly states ( and Crimea’s historical status).
Of course the western civilisation had other plans, the fact that these were/are diametrically different to its plans in the Saudi/Yemen war is a detail best ignored.
West is good, East is bad. Whatever long winded moral excuses are produced, this is the reality of the situation in the minds of most.
I keep coming back to the same thing. Its ‘five eyes’/EU/Japan/S Korea/Singapore. Most of the populous states in the world are not taking the same moral position nor imposing sanctions. This is a ‘civilisation versus civilisation’ issue, not good versus evil, not Gandalf versus Sauron which is about the level of most of the media comments.

Mark
4 years ago
Reply to  peyrole

I keep coming back to the same thing. Its ‘five eyes’/EU/Japan/S Korea/Singapore. Most of the populous states in the world are not taking the same moral position nor imposing sanctions. This is a ‘civilisation versus civilisation’ issue, not good versus evil, not Gandalf versus Sauron which is about the level of most of the media comments.”

Myself, I think ‘civilisation versus civilisation’ is not quite correct (though it’s mostly just a matter of semantics).

What we are seeing is the dominant superpower (the US) making a grab for yet greater global power, along with its satellite states.

“Civilisation v civilisation” rather over-dignifies it, imo.

crisisgarden
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Indeed. Racket vs. Racket.

B.F.Finlayson
4 years ago

Or, “Don’t stand up to bullies: they might hurt you.” How cute, when this was precisely the LS editorial policy last year when TY refused to counter the government’s murderous vaxx policy, despite the damning stats coming from VAERS, MHRA and ONS. It hid away from taking any principled stand, lest Toby offend his idiot chum Boris – and somehow prejudice his ownchances of favours in future years. Meanwhile hundreds of school kids were lined up and jabbed – while TweedleTobe frolicked in the countryside (and elsewhere) with TweedleDel. So before DS does a high and mighty op-ed, let’s get back to statecraft for beginners. The Ukrainian government is the main party to blame for this mess, not Putin. His main fault, arguably, was to not go in earlier and help save some of the thousands being slaughtered by the gung-ho neo Ukrainian Nazi brigades in the two Russian speaking Donbass republics. Zelensky is not a clown, for even that calling requires a degree of skill that he does not possess, he is a stooge. A stooge that countless video clips show to have been afraid of confronting the genocide being committed by his own forces in East Ukraine – but still sanctioning it.… Read more »

Nicholas
Nicholas
4 years ago
Reply to  B.F.Finlayson

Superb response, thank you. In the midst of the Hollywood scripted media storm of moral outrage, it is a continual comfort to find such comments.

rayc
rayc
4 years ago
Reply to  B.F.Finlayson

When you elect a literal clown with no prior political experience as your president, there is no wonder that he keeps behaving like a clown in crisis (or maybe like a teenager who’s watched a few too many war movies).

What’s more appalling is that supposedly clever people in the West are letting this clown influence their own politics and spending budgets.

Well, actually, they are more probably just using this golden opportunity to fill the coffers of their own corrupt military lobbyists while not really doing all that much in terms of real support for the clown’s efforts to trigger WW3 for the sake of saving his own sorry ass.

But this is a dangerous game to play to manipulate public opinion like that, with very bad long term consequences for everyone – except those who are now siphoning out public funds into their pockets. It reminds a lot of the manipulation that has been done to spread hate against the “unvaccinated” and enable money grab of the century for the pharma industry.

JMR747
JMR747
4 years ago
Reply to  rayc

Could it be intentional – is Zelensky in control any more than senile Joe in the USA? The dangerous people are the globalists behind these puppets.

rayc
rayc
4 years ago
Reply to  JMR747

The trouble with Zelensky is that because of not being a professional politician he possibly genuinely believes that he is in control.

Matt Mounsey
Matt Mounsey
4 years ago

Hitler’s getting his country invaded. We’re the bad guys in this one. The guy is literally leading a Nazi army. Not neo nazi – actual Nazis that go back to the beginning. Doesn’t matter if he’s some Jewish comedy actor and has more puppet strings coming out of his government than a muppet Nazi special. I’ll bet there were plenty of Nazi sympathisers that were moved to tears when Russians rolled into Berlin and apparently there are some around now. A lot of civilian casualties then and a lot less now. Read your history to understand the mass rape and destruction of Nazis back then. You don’t shed tears for Nazis. They’ve been bombing the crap out of those Russian parts of Ukraine for longer than the Second World War. Where were your tears for those people? But this time we’re on the Nazi side. We’re so stupid the Jewish Comedy Hitler can come to our Parliament and quote Churchill to us and get a standing ovation and lots of tears shed. If you think I’m being callous please put me in my place. It isn’t even slightly uncertain for me. I’ll always be on the other side to Nazis.… Read more »

ImpObs
4 years ago

I wish Ian, and others who are over simplifying things, would do some research before jumping in with both feet. You’re like the child in the schoolyard who goads other kids into fighting “the bully” while you hold his coat and watch him get battered, ignoring the fact “the bully” was goaded into action in the first place. Naohs article is just as bad, justified by a lack of historical context and nuance, to give us a this or that choice as if that’s the only option. On an intellectual level it’s a failure of diplomacy, but we know this is baked in the pie already, the wests politicians goaded into startng it by arms manufacturers and the banks that profit from the debt, meddling in other countries internal politics, an army of policy makers in “think tanks” funded by the same bankers who have followed the same power game script for hundreds of years. The Best Enemies Money Can Buy: An Interview with Prof. Antony C. Sutton https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTDvLmEBESY Listen to Andrew Cockburn (Author of Spoils of war) Interviewed by the Grey Zone From Ukraine to Yemen, US arms industry reaps the spoils of war https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0DLNDAgAwU Putin is in it… Read more »

rayc
rayc
4 years ago
Reply to  ImpObs

My own proposal would be that each “leader” (without exceptions) should be, as a matter of course, subjected to regular personal punishment (non-lethal, no weapons allowed, a boxing match would do) by those whose his or her stupid decisions have harmed. Imagine having a boxing match with a thousand people. And yes, I’m aware that such arrangement would cause a very quick elimination of people who wish to be “leaders”. And yes, the potentially “leaderless” world would be a much better place for it.

ImpObs
4 years ago
Reply to  rayc

But then you’d have Mike Tyson/MMA style proxy leaders, and a dozen factions claiming they were harmed by any policy. We’re supposed to be a civilized species, supposed being the opperative word there I guess.

Putting aside the controlling influence behind the IRA to make a point, it should be more akin to what Mo Mowlam did during the N.Ireland Good Friday Agreement negotiations.

rayc
rayc
4 years ago
Reply to  ImpObs

Given enough rounds from worthy opponents, even Mike Tyson would not last very long. The key idea would be not to piss off people, to not give them a reason to fight you. As for the pessimistic assumption that there would always be people pissed off – or pretending so to oust the leader… notice that they would be subjected to the same treatment after taking his place. So maybe not the best idea to work like this after all?

The key point is that the leader should be personally responsible for screwing up, to provide sufficient “motivation” for not doing so – and the very same motivation would also guide the wannabe competitors to watch what they are bringing upon themselves.

ImpObs
4 years ago
Reply to  rayc

Everyone should be held personally responsible for their actions, but instead we get closed ranks in Parliment, corporations covering their ass, foxes guarding the hen house (current Covid enquiry case in point) and the sneaky bastards always have some false flag, or plausible deniability style excuse. We have international laws, disregarded at will, and no equal enforcement.

Stick them all in a room and come to a publically transparent agreement, or they’re not allowed to come out, it shouldn’t be about who has the biggest guns, who has the most blood to spill. Never happen tho.

riskit
4 years ago

Really, are we driven by honorable ethics and sound reasoning or rather to justify arm trade deals ?

Marcus Aurelius knew
4 years ago

Are we sure we’re arming who we think we’re arming?

I guess the argument against arming one side or the other is the same as the argument against capital punishment – what if you convict someone innocent, and is it really a deterrent?

stewart
4 years ago

Who is we? I don’t know about you, but I’m not arming anybody.

If they’d asked me, I’d have reached a deal with Putin not to offer Ukraine NATO or EU membership in exchange for no invasion.

If he invades anyway, then nothing lost. And if he doesn’t, well, I don’t particular care if Ukraine was in NATO or the EU in the first place, so also nothing lost there either.

But no one asked me.

arany madar
arany madar
4 years ago

Arguing for the correctness of one side or the other in Ukraine misses the larger point that the war is being used to accelerate the collapse of the supply chains. This is really Plandemic 2.0
Hundreds of companies suspend work in Russia as global grain shortages loom

rayc
rayc
4 years ago
Reply to  arany madar

Yes, the domestic vaccine/ID passports will soon make a grand comeback globally as a “protective measure” against the “new” threat of “biological warfare” … and also to identify potential “terrorists”. How lucky that we’ve already invested in the infrastructure and technology which is going to “protect” us!

allanplaskett
allanplaskett
4 years ago

Just one problem with arming the Ukrainians: it’s no different from ‘boots on the ground’, and ‘no-fly zone’. It is, in fact, just the same: an act of war. The Russians aren’t calling it that at the moment, but, if they start seriously losing, they will. What do we do then?

tree
4 years ago
Reply to  allanplaskett

The Russians haven’t acknowledged the invasion, they are undertaking.

Aleajactaest
4 years ago
Reply to  tree

poor punctuation

RW
RW
4 years ago

Comment before reading: Please shelf your morals. This isn’t a sunday school discussion of some abstract issue of guilt and innocence but a war, ie, an armed conflict between states with conflicting interests. And the people who are still discussing if strategic air warfare, ie, mass-killing of non-combatants and wanton destruction of non-military targets, can’t somehow be made to work as they’re so much in love with the concept have no moral leg to stand on, anyway.

D B
D B
4 years ago

“I don’t know” is a valid argument either way and should be deployed far more liberally than we do.

tree
4 years ago
Reply to  D B

Indeed.. most around here profess to “know” with absolute certainty. And to absolutely reject any mainstream source of information.

Aleajactaest
4 years ago
Reply to  tree

as yourself does

civilliberties
4 years ago

what I find quite weird is that the ukrainian leader zelensky is been on video calls and giving speeches in government houses i.e. house of commons and the US senate etc etc asking for weapons and money and also apparently no fly zones etc. Does this not seem to be political interference and meddling in another countries affairs? in the era of the west complaining of Russian and Chinese political hacking and interference, the spectacle of a leader of another country is actively giving demands to politicians in other countries by video call, the optics of this is quite odd.

Emerald Fox
4 years ago
Reply to  civilliberties

I thought Zelensky was in the trenches on the front line? Perhaps he found them difficult to negotiate in high heels.

Aleajactaest
4 years ago
Reply to  Emerald Fox

he’s in Colorado

Dodgy Geezer
Dodgy Geezer
4 years ago

This is an aggressors’ charter that is, in itself, utterly immoral….has at times brought me to tears,

Warfare is a serious business, and emotions pay no part in it. If you cannot win, you should surrender to save lives. If you will lose, but can make continuing to fight costly for your enemy, you should fight to extract better surrender terms, which is where the Ukraine is now. If your enemy can wield irresistible conventional force, you should surrender your conventional army, and move to guerrilla warfare. For every move, there is an appropriate counter-move. Crying is not one of them.

if you’re unlucky – surviving, for a ghastly but probably quite brief time, a nuclear exchange. 

Nuclear war was quite survivable at the height of the Cold War – no matter what slogans CND spouted. It is far more survivable now, with much smaller but precisely targeted weapons.

Not that anyone would want it to happen – but if it did, it is perfectly reasonable to want to survive it.