The Real Truth About Viruses
Being sceptical is one thing. Being just plain wrong is another. And in the broad spectrum of Covid scepticism, Dr. Sam Bailey takes the extreme biscuit both for believing and promoting the most abject misinformation regarding viruses. In a nutshell, she does not believe they exist. I am aware of others in the same camp and, slightly along the spectrum there are those who, while they may believe in viruses, do not believe in the existence of the SARS-CoV-2 virus that causes COVID-19. Of course, there have long been those like discredited Peter Duesberg who have, for example, claimed that HIV does not cause AIDS. I would like to hear Duesberg or Sam Bailey explain how haemophiliacs contracted AIDS from blood infusions. Somehow, I think they’ll have a stock response to that one.
They are all, demonstrably, wrong but stubbornly adhere to their views. I must make it clear that, while I think they are wrong and that their views are potentially damaging, they have every right to express those views. But I do wish that there was a forum for proper debate on these issues. The mainstream scientific community tends to hold people like virus deniers (and ‘anti-vaxxers’) in contempt and not worthy of debate. The mainstream media will not allow them airtime. This is wrong, especially in the age of COVID-19 as, while I am a fully signed up lockdown sceptic, these people are spreading erroneous views by other routes and are simply not being challenged.
However, I sense a similar attitude amongst the virus deniers who tend to promote their views on increasingly bizarre websites and within such a deafening echo chamber that they are completely unable to hear, yet alone contemplate, alternative views. They certainly don’t listen. If I am allowed to make the obvious case for the existence of viruses, by tackling some of the excesses of the virus deniers I hope that someone from their camp may be willing and permitted to provide a counterattack.
I must put my own lockdown and, indeed, Covid scepticism on the line here. I have been opposed to lockdown from the outset and, preceded only by Toby Young and Peter Hitchens, I think I was one of the first in print in the Salisbury Review with my own views. Patently, I am not a virus denier, but I do hold a fair degree of Covid scepticism in the sense that I believe that the harmful effects of the novel coronavirus, in terms of its ability to infect and the consequences of COVID-19, were grossly exaggerated. I have been in print many times on these issues, for example in Unity News Network and TCW Defending Freedom. I also signed an early petition raised by Piers Corbyn asking the U.K. Government if the novel coronavirus had been isolated. Not my best idea and one which led to a great deal of ‘whataboutery’ (the tu quoque logical fallacy) aimed at discrediting me. On the other hand, the Government response was enlightening/unenlightening – depending on your position – and could easily have been summarised as ‘no’. As a result, the Government did not cover itself in glory as it could have added ‘but’ and went on to provide the argument for the existence of the novel coronavirus. Instead, the virus deniers saw this as a ‘gotcha’ moment, and it merely fuelled their fire.
Dr. Sam Bailey
Dr. Sam Bailey is a photogenic New Zealand doctor who has abandoned medicine. She promotes her views through her own website and on whatever other platforms to which she can gain access. The virus deniers, including Sam Bailey, are prone to publishing lengthy videos nearly always involving the same people. Frankly, these are extremely tedious to watch. Her views have been debunked regarding the existence of viruses but, possibly unknown to many who are unwilling to wade into the depths and breadths of her views, she denies germ theory completely. If you have any doubts about this then I urge you to take the time to listen, in full, to her recent interview with James Delingpole on his Delingpod podcast. Here she is given free rein to express her views which become increasingly outlandish as the podcast progresses.
The Truth About Viruses
This essay is prompted by the most recent video from Sam Bailey: The Truth About Viruses published on March 9th 2022. She is to be congratulated for its brevity – it is only 17 minutes long – but it is presented in a typically sneering, sarcastic and patronising manner. Consequently, it is hard to know who she is trying to convince. However, whatever her style of presentation, the problem with The Truth About Viruses is that it is not the truth about viruses. It is hard to understand how Sam Bailey arrives at her views and it is not necessary to be a virus denier to be highly critical of the way the pandemic was managed. After all, anti (Covid) ‘vaxxer’ supreme, Dr. Mike Yeadon made it clear in his excellent interview with Neil Oliver on GB News that he believes a unique virus exists. The HART Group led by Dr. John Lee, who have mounted the most credible and well-informed responses to the UK lockdown, is not stocked with virus deniers. This is exemplified in David Clews’ interview with Dr. Ros Jones of HART on Unity News Network.
It is hard to know where to start but, since she denies germ theory itself – as properly understood – I will start here with Dr Bailey’s views on whether anything exists that can cause an infection and spread between people. Louis Pasteur comes in for criticism by Bailey in her Delingpod interview. I am sure Pasteur was not perfect but he did knock the theory of spontaneous generation a body blow with his swan neck flask experiment. The theory of spontaneous generation, to which people including Florence Nightingale adhered long after Hooke discovered moulds and Leeuwenhoek discovered bacteria, proposed that maggots arose spontaneously in meat, rats arose spontaneously in rubbish heaps and that, for example, nutrient media such as broth likewise became mouldy. Pasteur prepared a broth and placed it in a flask with a swan shaped neck (pictured). He left the flask tilted so that the opening of the flask pointed downwards, and the broth remained fresh. Once he tilted the flask so that the opening pointed upwards, the broth became mouldy. Conclusion: infection was not spontaneous but caused by air borne particles and these probably included both fungal spores and bacteria. The best thing about the swan neck flask experiment is that it is reproducible; I know because I have done it. Without expressing it as such, Dr. Bailey has batted the theory of disease back into the 19th Century. Edward Jenner was another scoundrel according to Bailey and, while his experiments would not have passed muster with an NHS ethics committee, you can see where Bailey is going and leading her disciples into the realm of the ‘anti-vaxxers’, a topic which I will not explore here.
It is clear in her most recent video that she has studied the arguments which purport to demonstrate viruses exist. She mentions, in passing, the famous TMV (tobacco mosaic virus) in a ‘that’s all very well’ kind of way. But the fact is that the TMV has been sufficiently purified for its structure to be studied by scanning electron microscopy; and that represents a very high level of both isolation and purity. A plant virus it may be, with no animal equivalent, but it is the case that disproves, in a Popperian way, the argument often repeated by the virus deniers that ‘no virus has ever been purified’. Some have been sufficiently purified for study by X-ray crystallography and that represents an extremely high level of purification.
How do we know viruses exist?
It is very hard to mount a coherent argument against the specific way Bailey argues as she cherry picks pieces of viral evidence, such as not adhering to Koch’s postulates or not always being purified or visible under a microscope. But the fact is that the existence of any virus is triangulated by an array of increasingly sophisticated laboratory techniques whereby theories may be tested, cultures grown, and infectivity demonstrated. In fact, a great many viruses have been purified, often against the odds. Viral proteins, including on the novel coronavirus, are largely glycoproteins and these alone, due to heterogeneity in structure, are very hard to purify to a level where, for example, they could be crystallised. While methods for the purification of glycoproteins have improved, I recall a glycoprotein expert once telling me that if someone holds up a test tube and claims it contains a purified solution of glycoprotein, he or she is lying.
The virus deniers trot out the Koch’s postulates argument repeatedly, even though Koch’s postulates were simply one way – long before the advent of amino acid and nucleotide sequencing methods – of demonstrating the presence of a bacterium. Koch’s postulates go something like this: find an infected animal; extract some infected tissue; introduce that to an uninfected animal, and if the poor thing becomes infected you have a bacterial infection. Koch’s postulates were never intended to be applied to viruses – the existence of which were not known when Koch postulated. In any case, bacteria are much more universally infective than viruses, which tend to be very specific. The original SARS, which almost certainly jumped species, is very unusual for that very reason and, for example, bird flu does not infect humans. The jury remains out on whether SARS-CoV-2, which possibly jumped species, did so spontaneously or after a ‘gain of function’ nudge.
I have corresponded with Siouxsie Wiles, a major debunker of the Koch’s postulates argument, at Auckland University in New Zealand over this point and over the point regarding ‘purification’ of the SARS-CoV-2 virus. It transpires that the purification of the novel coronavirus argument is a straw dog created by the viral deniers. In fact, nobody has claimed that it has been purified. However, it has been ‘isolated’, which is a different concept whereby studies are carried out to check it is there. According to Siouxsie Wiles, the virus has been found in hundreds of disparate samples and subsequently sequenced. The viral deniers point to the way the sequence was merely pieced together in the early stages, thus proposing a hoax. But this is how viruses are sequenced. What they omit to say, and as explained in Chan and Ridley’s Viral, which I reviewed for the Salisbury Review, there are mega databases of coronaviruses, mainly held and reluctantly shared by the Chinese, whereby emerging sequences from the sequencing work can be assembled and compared. Molecular biologists know which sequences of nucleotides (the genetic letters) can run together and often precisely what they code for.
Of course, Bailey has this covered; the whole field of molecular biology, predicated as it is on Mendelian genetics is, of course, bogus. She points to some arbitrary and far too early date for the origins of molecular biology, but it originated at the University of Edinburgh in the 1970s under Professor Sir Ken Murray. I know, I was there at the time, and he lectured to me. In any case, as explained to me by Siouxsie Wiles, it is not necessary to purify the coronavirus and as Dr. Ros Jones says in her Unity News Network interview with David Clews, this is not how it is done; the virus is cultured. This is about as close to Koch’s postulates as you could get: grow the purported virus in a cellular culture and identify it by sequencing. Introduce what you have to some other cultured cells alongside a control culture. If the one with the purported virus shows subsequent evidence for the presence of the virus and the other does not, that is about as watertight an experiment as I can think of.
Bailey and co. try to debunk all the methods that are used in virology and to deny the whole field of laboratory science. The only possible retort can be that no method is perfect, and experiments often fail to show what is being hypothesised. That is an argument for rather than against science, which constantly tries to improve its methods. I recall a whole room being dedicated to a huge amino acid sequencer when I was a PhD student. Now, amino acid sequencing can be done on a microchip. I frankly doubt that Sam Bailey has any idea how sophisticated and painstaking scientific laboratory research is. Perhaps she has not done any herself?
COVID-19
I have had Covid, despite the remarkable claims by my virus denying friends to the contrary. How do I know I had it: it hit me like an express train; I felt terrible for two days and slept for 29 of 48 hours, rather like the flu. My taste was not lost but my sense of smell became incredibly deranged, not something that I had experienced after many bouts of flu in my 66 years. When I felt worst, I reluctantly took a lateral flow test (LFT). This showed up positive almost instantly and with a thick test line. As I felt better the test – which as it uses antibodies is highly specific but not very sensitive – took longer to show and the line became fainter. Of course, the virus deniers have this one covered under the rubric that immunology is also bogus, antibodies are not at all specific and will pick up anything. My ‘gotcha’ to this is: if I run a pregnancy test which uses antibodies to detect human chorionic gonadotropin, will it show me I am pregnant?
I have no real grasp of what our virus deniers think is wrong with people who ‘come down’ with a virus, and not necessarily Covid. They seem to explain it through a series of completely untestable ideas which include a mixture of mass hysteria and viral infections (which don’t exist) being the body cleaning out impurities. Eschewing modern medicine, Bailey and co. promote the need for fresher air, an organic diet, no medicines of any kind (Big Pharma all baddies) and generally returning to the land and a more primitive and less stressful way of life. All hail to them on that last point, but if that involves me wiping my backside with a stick, then count me out.
Dr. Roger Watson is Academic Dean of Nursing at Southwest Medical University, China. He has a PhD in biochemistry.
UPDATE: Dr. Sam Bailey has responded to this article. Find her piece here.
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There are people holding responsibilities for the sane operation of normal life, who believe that everyone wafts clouds of viral particles every second of every day.Can someone defuse their ignorance and bigotry, please?
If they have a viral infection that involves the airways and lungs it is likely that they do, in the same way that unclean people waft clouds of unpleasnt odours.
Yes but that is the extent of their knowledge.
Do they know who will be seriously ill and who won’t? No
Do they know what conditions lead to infection and which do not? No
Knowing viruses exist isn’t good enough. They are using the power of the state to tell people how to live their lives pretending they know the answers to these critical questions when they actually have little or no clue.
THAT is what is driving scepticism. Not Dr Sam Bailey.
This ^^^^ !!!!
Absolutely, Stewart. Government’s action (and Opposition inaction) and their seeming inability to chose a broad range of advisors is leading to huge destruction of our culture.
The destruction of our culture is intentional. It is part of the reset.
“Six of 12 men wintering at an isolated Antarctic base sequentially developed symptoms and signs of a common cold after 17 weeks of complete isolation. Examination of specimens taken from the men in relation to the outbreak has not revealed a causative agent.”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2130424/
Germ theory needs to explain.
May not have found a causative agent, but assuming there was one, where did it come from and why only six and not all 12 men
I would say that if you had to ask that question – which assumes a “causative agent” and that it’s contagious – you have not exposed yourself to Sam Baily’s easy-to-understand videos. You lucky person ! And the Good Doctor’s article (above) should inoculate you against the curiosity ‘virus’ (Though Sam Baily would probably dispute it’s a ‘virus’.)
Cuddling polar bears. . . just to keep warm, of course!
Denier derives from a religious use. So, it’s use implies that the basis of the argument is belief not science. And, saying “XXXX denier” is usually totally absurd.
Take for example the “climate denier” meme. What is is that people are supposedly “denying”. Is it that there is a climate … or is it that over the 4.5billion years that there has been no climate change? Is it that the climate cannot change when humanity creates large cities (which are several degrees warmer?) Is it that CO2 is not a Infra Red active gas?
It’s a meaningless term … deliberately very unspecific to deliver an insult without being specific enough to be refuted … and therefore “xxxx denier” is really just a stupid and lazy attack on individuals.
Actually the term ‘denier’ to describe those who challenge/do not blindly accept Climatism is quite insidious. It was borrowed from the term ‘Holocaust denier’ loaded with all the emotional baggage and association with the Nazis that brings.
The relevance being that the Holocaust is irrefutable because of so much documented evidence, photo/video, and survivor and eye witness accounts not least soldiers and war correspondents of the Allied forces who liberated the camps.
The Climatists claim to have so much evidence that ‘Climate Change’ is irrefutable, but they never show it. Requests to see it are dismissed with, ‘the debate is over’ to enter into further debate is to give credibility to those who challenge the claims and undermine the verity of ‘the science’ itself.
Well said. ‘Climate (change) denier’, ‘Covid denier’, ‘virus denier’ – abhor the use of these expressions.
The new word for ‘heretic’. Rather like the term ‘Nazi’ being bandied about for anyone who disagrees with a viewpoint, especially those of the Left or MSM.
New? Been in use for the best part of 2 decades thanks to CAGW
Sorry, I used virus denier above, but it is aimed specifically at people who deny the existence of all viruses.
I deny the existence of all viruses. This simply because none have ever been isolated, characterized, much less shown to be infectious.
Wow. That’s a very powerful statement. I mean, how you can prove a negative is … well… astonishing.
Do I take from this that only things that have been isolated can exist?
That’s clearly up to you.
This simply because none have ever been isolated, characterized, much less shown to be infectious.
Those down voting that statement are seemingly truth deniers. That being said, viruses may still exist.
There were debates in the Middle Ages about God’s existence. The disbelievers were told to prove God didnt exist. How could they when it hadnt been proven that God existed.
I wonder how the debate is going in the parallel universe(s) ?
I prefer deployed rather than borrowed, it better describes the weaponising of the phrase.
Yes, it is used to smear any skepticism as National Socialist.
It’s doubly evil as it’s a term used by those who want a second Holodomor while denying that their preferred policies are Communist.
‘denier’ is a shut-up term. It hearkens to Holocaust denier. Presumably the person denies the Moon landing as well.
Uhh….you seriously believe they landed a nailed and pop-riveted together shed made from balsa wood, aluminium sheeting and tinfoil on the moon, which survived temperatures ranging from +100C to -100C with men protected inside it, and then ‘flew’ it back to the mother rocket ready to travel back to earth?
Have you studied this thing close up? Its like something knocked up by a sixth form college.
Yet the world swallowed it up whole, no questions asked. Half my life I worked in the special effects entertainment industry and have long argued the moonlandings were fake. They were laughably fake.
Along with the fake cold war, it was a big distraction from the commies migrating out of Russia into America and Europe.
And here we are are today, with a pseudo democracy and a pathetically degenerate people who have had their brains pulverised with hourly BS from all directions, accepting everything the regime throws at them.
We’re now a nation almost completely willing to sacrifice everything to please the globalist agenda.
https://ourdecisiontoo.com/Issue/there-s-nothing-left-to-do-but-go-our-separate-ways/320/
My kids questioned The Moon Landing. They claim that as no Moon Cheese was brought back, then no Landing.
The 1989 Wallace and Gromit mission confirmed the existence of Moon Cheese, although samples taken at the surface tested negative for Wensleydale.
My kids saw Wally and Grom movie. All that Cheese.
That’s why they doubted the Moon Landing.
Cough. The vile Monbiot actually used “Holocaust Deniers” to describe those of us capable of independent thought.
However, I will credit him. It was his abuse of language that first made me think – something’s not right here…
“the Holocaust is irrefutable”
What, every last detail of the orthodox account of it?
Is the “Holocaust denier” label applied exclusively to those who reject every detail, or does it extend, and, indeed, is, perhaps, overwhelmingly applied, to those, qualified historians, or otherwise, who reject at least one detail?
Is the label being employed to make history a matter of diktat, rather than a product of research?
I think we should be told!
“Climate change denier” is a propaganda term that is used to contaminate the rejection of the theory of anthropogenic climate change by associating or “amalgamating” it with the view that climate change doesn’t happen and isn’t happening. Curiously exactly the same confusion between cause and effect is evident in the use of the term “Covid” (an illness) to denote SARSCoV2 (a virus). Once a person’s mind has been befuddled in this way, if you say “I don’t believe humans are changing the climate” they will hear you say “I don’t believe the climate is changing”, and from their point of view, into the bucket you will go with the flat earthers, as they turn back to their mobile phones; and if you say “I doubt that omicron has ever caused a single case of Covid”, your statement will be meaningless to them, just as colour blindness can cause a person not to see a digit that is written in dots of one colour on a background of dots of another colour, despite its being immediately apparent to a person with good vision who is not colour blind. George Orwell wrote that “Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus… Read more »
A climate change denier believes the Earth’s climate is static.
Keep this one-liner handy whenever the pejorative is used against you.
orwell was wrong.
it should be: freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make five.
“Climate change denier” is hurled at those who challenge or reject official claims that humans are to blame. Climate change deniers know climate changes occur. If the media showcase a climate change denier who actually denies climate change, it’s to discredit those who refuse The Official Consensus (aka – Party line).
The term ‘climate denier’ crams an incredible number of fallacies into just two words.
I observe that the first person I ever heard use the term was the illiterate gibbering imbecile Prince Harry.
I believe it’s what Ayn Rand called an anti-concept.
Mike – thanks for the comments; I just cannot think of a better term for someone who denies the existence of viruses; in fact she is really a ‘science denier’ as she dismisses the whole of modern and a lot of established science. I see someone suggesting ‘sceptic’ as the correct term below but sceptics question, they don’t ‘deny’ and/or ridicule in the way Dr Bailey does. Watch he most recent video.
You are sounding more and more like Lord Fauci now, for he too has decreed that anyone questioning his random utterances and constantly changing diktats is a ‘science denier’.
I agree. Here is Sam’s brilliant rebuttal https://drsambailey.com/covid-19/the-covid-sceptics-who-spread-viral-dogma/ I can’t believe Watson’s article appeared in the sceptic, though judging by recent topical posts they seem to have lost the plot completely. Dr Watson also has declined to have a discussion on the ‘science’ with the Baileys…not confident of his evidence?
extreme contrarian perhaps?
Ridiculous comment. Denier is a codeword for ‘you must be a horrible person like a holocaust denier’. That’s where it came from. It’s just a low grubby insult for someone you don’t agree with it, and it’s kind of disgusting. Gussying it up as some kind of respectable intellectual position is not ok.
Oh come on. You couldn’t think of a better term? Perhaps the word sceptic? The clue is in the publication title. You could take all the heat out of this comments thread by just apologising for your poor choice of language, stop making excuses and move on.
“in fact she is really a ‘science denier’ as she dismisses the whole of modern and a lot of established science.”
May I ask if you deem “established science” as “settled science”?
Please set out for us non scientific thickos how and by whom has Peter Duesberg discredited with his research in to HIV/AIDS? Your reply will, I am sure, be illuminatiing.
Exactly Mike.
Whilst I enjoyed this rather hysterical article I found the Nazi connotations disagreeable – straight out of the global alarmists playbook.
Btw has this Chinese/American CIA derived virus been isolated and sequenced
It obviously came from the American sponsored lab in Wuhan. Could the good Doctor apply his local Chinese knowledge to enlighten us?
Thanks, Roger. It’s as I said in March 2020: the authorities’ over-reaction (for whatever reason) to a seasonal flu virus will encourage all sorts of quackery – including the ideas that viruses don’t exist and that vaccines are bad (the real ones, not the “vaccines” peddled in the last 18 months).
PS, Sphagnum Moss is excellent stuff for wiping your bottom in the wild; no sticks required!
I’m just reading “Dissolving Illusions: Disease, Vaccines, and the Forgotten History”. I’d really recommend you take a look at it before you put too much faith in the good old vaccines of yester year. What’s happening now has already happened with the smallpox vaccination.
From a circular signed”The doctors”,1876:
“Try revaccination – it never will hurt you,
For revaccination has this one great virtue:
Should it injure or kill you whenever you receive it,
We all stand prepared to refuse to believe it.”
Look up what happened in Leicester in 1885.
I’ll take a look, thanks, LovelyGirl.
“The vaccine has actually increased susceptibility to the disease. The conclusion is in every case the same: that vaccination is a gigantic delusion; that it has never saved a single life; but that it has been the cause of so much disease, so many deaths, such a vast amount of utterly needless and altogether undeserved suffering, that it will be classed by the coming generation among the greatest errors of an ignorant and prejudiced age, and its penal enforcement the foulest blot on the generally beneficent course of legislation during our century.” Alfred Russell Wallace
Yes, excellent book. Good recommendation.
So a lot of downvoting but no-one (apart from a book recommendation from LovelyGirl) is choosing to help by adding any detail?
I am not an expert, but the work of Edward Jenner seems pretty conclusive to me.
And bear in mind that inoculation was happening in many parts of the world, centuries before the practice came to Europe.
Sanitation eradicated smallpox. See my reply to LovelyGirl and this:
https://stevekirsch.substack.com/p/what-we-can-learn-from-the-smallpox?s=r
And, yes, I refuse ALL vaccines which probably makes me an ‘anti-vaxxer’ in much the same way as because I don’t eat meat I must be an ‘anti-carnivore.’ Ludicrous terms. Everyone else can do what they like.
Ha! Went carnivore a year or so back. Only animal products. Can’t remember when I last felt SO well. And all locally sourced, meat all grass fed. Supermarket shelves empty? Who cares?!
If it works for you I applaud it. I gave up eating meat because I abhor intensive farming methods and cruelty to animals. If someone fed me venison because they had collided with a deer on the highway I wouldn’t have a problem, though I suspect after 40 years I don’t have the enzymes to digest it. .
Hi Bella, don’t take this as an attack, I mean it truly in the spirit of debate:
It seems to me that your abhorrence to breeding and killing animals for food whilst not abhorring the growing and harvesting of plants for food is illogical. Are plants not equally alive? Or is it just because animals seem more ‘human’?
I’m not a Buddhist but they make a distinction between sentient and non sentient. I think it was Kant who said the essence of life was the eating of itself. Also to sustain life you have take life. BUT Marcus you missed my point. It’s the nature of the breeding. I said intensive farming, where (some) animals are herded together they can hardly breathe and barely see daylight. I gave the example of road kill for a reason.
OK, thanks for the clarification about sentience, Bella. It sort of makes sense to me. But I guess I just don’t feel qualified to define what is or is not sentient. So I just eat the lot! My jawbone and my teeth tell me that wiser heads than my own felt that’s what I should do.
And I agree that some of the breeding methods do not render very good quality meat… in more optimistic times (i.e. Before Covid), I would have said that perhaps the problem will therefore fix itself, but now I am not so sure.
I somehow missed your roadkill example – apologies!
No probs 🙂
Nice discussion.
Like Sheeple Bella?
Agreed. Although I believe that vaccination against indiscriminate killers like the smallpox virus has helped reduce deaths from those viruses, I also believe that improved sanitation and access to clean water are most likely the two biggest contributors in this regard.
Together with an improvement in public health and knowledge of vitamin deficiencies.
I am pretty confident that if you read the book I have recommended you will see vaccination in general in a new light (especially because you are a wise and thoughtful emperor ☺️☺️). It’s actually gobsmacking. To be honest, I had already known that smallpox was not eradicated by vaccination, but the details of what actually happened are astonishing and the parallels with today striking.
so was bloodletting….
If you wanted to set up some moderated debates I think your readers would really appreciate it and they would be very successful.
Show the world that sunlight is always the best disinfectant.
That’s what Florence Nightingale said about sunlight. Good for vitamin D too.
Excellent article. I spent 18 months arguing with “virus deniers” on the David Icke forum showing them scientific evidence for the existence of viruses until the so-called “moderator” known as Grumpy Owl finally blocked me. Unfortunately some of them migrated onto this website and those arguments continued. It has diluted peoples energies exposing the Covid fraud and split the sceptic ranks. Some Charlatans with a failed scientific/medical background with books to sell, websites to fund and pills, lotions and potions to sell to the gullible have seen the profit potential of abandoning mainstream medicine in favour of the 19th century Terrain Theory and “viruses do not exist” quackery. People like Stefan Lanka, Andrew Kaufman, Tom Cowan, Sam Bailey etc. These people have seduced others in the alternative media without a medical or scientific background but who also have books to sell and websites to fund to support their spurious 19th century claims and that “viruses do not exist”. People like David Icke, Jon Rappaport, Mike Adams etc. They keep appearing on each others platforms, including Alex Jones Infowars, and keep quoting each other and operate in an echo chamber of lies and deceit to illicit money from the gullible. ALL… Read more »
I gathered many of my arguments against those who have their quasi religious belief that “viruses do not exist” on my blog.
https://classicrecords1.wixsite.com/the-sceptic
I enjoyed your original post, and agree that there is a heavy sense of charlatan in the likes of Kaufmann for example. Mike Adams absolutely is selling his brand.
However, you’ve killed it by shilling your blog now. Ironic enough
I linked to it so I wouldn’t have to keep repeating the same arguments with anyone on here.
I had to create the blog because sites like the Daily Expose wouldn’t post some of my comments in full so it was easier to link to a blog.
I read the book Virus Mania that Bailey co-authored.
The terrain theory on its own, stating that the immune response and deficiencies in certain individuals to a virus are far more relevant to public health than attempts at containment beyond the very initial stages, seems like standard epidemiology before 2020.
Where they lose the plot is by saying that viruses are not the cause of disease. They certainly are, but often only in susceptible individuals.
Exactly.
Viruses exist and are more likely to effect an individual if they have an unhealthy lifestyle.
Your position is always to link anyone who questions the existence of SARS-CoV-II with ‘virus deniers’ in general. Do you do this on purpose?
The vast, vast majority of people who say SARS-CoV-2 doesn’t exist also say that “no” viruses exist.
What evidence do you have to support this assertion?
Is there an article about isolation and genome sequencing of SARS-CoV-2 — in a scientific journal?
Try doing an internet search and there will be thousands of them.
As I think I have said in the past, terrain theory and germ theory are two sides of the same coin, cf the duality of light wave or particle.
If you are in poor physical, mental or spiritual (not in the religious sense) condition then you are more susceptible to and less likely to recover from an infection.
Cold sores reoccur if you are stressed, shingles appears if you are stressed physically or mentally.
I was going to raise the point in the comments of Sam Bailey’s latest YouTube video, about HIV/AIDS developing in normally healthy patients after a blood transfusion, using the example of the science fiction/fact author Isaac Asimov who died of AIDS after receiving contaminated blood, even though he didn’t fit the profile of a typical HIV/AIDS patient.
a great read from the Perth group http://theperthgroup.com/SCIPAPERS/HaemophiliaHIVAIDS.pdf
Why does it have to be so absolutist and binary – either germ theory or terrain theory?
would it not make infinitely more sense to be a blend of both [ie weak or vulnerable individuals with a poorly nurtured immune system will fall prey to circulating viruses in a way that others don’t]?
I’m in your camp. It’s definitely both. A mixture of your innate immune system (aka terrain, or whatever it is that supports your innate immune system) and a pathogen. I don’t understand the binary thinking.
Terrain would also include genetic/epigenetic influences.
I have no opinion on whether viruses exist or not. I do have an opinion on the efficacy of vaccines though and, in the main, believe them to be suspect. But as I said in another post everyone can make up their own minds and do what they want. But I detect a suspicion in your post which might deride alternative therapies to allopathic medicine (‘without a medical or scientific background.’). I’m an advocate of homeopathy and herbalism and I have endured abuse for over forty years for being so. I don’t care what other people think, it has worked (and still works) for me. Again, everyone else can do what they like, but why deride me because I use it? I’m not forcing it on anyone else.
I’m not deriding you.
I’m 66 and haven’t had a vaccine for 40 years because I mistrust them.
I shun modern medicine and am very relaxed about herbalism.
I believe in eating well and staying fit and healthy.
I’m deriding those who don’t understand modern virology and who keep saying “viruses do not exist”.
Are people denying viruses exist though, or are they denying they are the cause of disease? Like the climate change debate, those who’s opinions are challenged brand people as ‘deniers’ but, what they are denying is climate change equals catastrophic consequences.
Yes. The people I have mentioned “believe” that viruses do not exist.
Unlike thousands of sceptical climate scientists questioning man made global warming there has been no retired virologist or otherwise with nothing to lose in coming forward with any doubts about “viruses existing”. There have been no death bed confessions from modern virologists. There have been no scientific papers suggesting viruses do not exist.
I didn’t mean to suggest you were deriding me, sorry if it read that way. I was referring to the people who have derided me in the past. Where I suggested you might have had some derision was for alternatives to allopathic medicine. I am very happy to be corrected by you that that in in fact is not the case.
You certainly know the names of the enemy. And from now on i wont believe anything people write about Viruses unless they’ve a medical or scientific background (keeping your distinction between ‘medical’ and ‘scientific’).
Which means that though the good Doctor-author is a Dean of Nursing that should qualify him as having virology expertise…
And why not, as during the height of the 1980s AIDS scare the local press quoted / promoted a Dermatologist as an expert on the sexual transmission of HIV.
I know your methods, Watson. Calm rationality, eh? But will this work on the nutters?
Still, lots of us have been accused of being nutters just for opposing lockdowns and being suspicious of the vaccines. It turns out, however, that we were right all along.
I’m not sure I’m sceptical enough, though. I didn’t guess that the US had biowarfare labs in Ukraine. The world seems to be full of facts that are barely credible but entirely true.
The Financial Times is obfuscating on the “labs”. It is confusing its readers about biological warfare, chemical warfare, and the difference between them. It says “Moscow repeats unsupported chemical weapons claims”. In fact, Russia has accused the US of having BW facilities [*] in the Ukraine, not CW ones. Nor does the FT see fit to inform people that Russia has taken the matter of the alleged US BW facilities to the UN Security Council. Presumably support for Russia’s claims will be given to the Security Council at its meeting today. So much for a “paper of record”. In other news, it is now admitted by the West (Torygraph article) that the Russian government was right and that the woman in the photographs was indeed the “Instagram influencer” Marianna Podgurskaya. Although I still believe she is a crisis actor, and that the photographs were faked, she may well also have been pregnant and now have given birth. Let us hope of course that she and her baby are properly looked after and that both are in good health and doing well. Note *) We should call them “facilities”. That covers laboratories, but it also covers storage and launch sites. The… Read more »
russia claims?
so what, russia also claims it did not shoot down flight mh17….
And it probably didn’t.
https://www.thelibertybeacon.com/shocking-update-on-the-mh17-cover-up/
have you actually read any of the pieces of eric zuesse?
that man is so far down the rabbit hole that he does no longer see the light of day.
i wonder on what pay scale he is being kept by wladimir…
This credibility of virology certainly needs robust, public debate. After which perhaps it can be cleaned up creating trust and transparency to a general public, some like me, who just want to know the truth. However, what I do not want to read, hear or see are unprofessional comments like:
“Dr. Sam Bailey is a photogenic New Zealand doctor who has abandoned medicine.”
Exactly my point as well. That they made this point at the beginning of their article to me shows their intent. To me, this was just another hit piece. I hope Toby allows Dr Bailey to put her view across.
I hope not I have never heard such a load of shite.
Her “tone” of presentation seems to be something we should be annoyed about also, according to the author of this blog post.
She’s being mean to virus believers. Ergo, viruses must exist.
I believe she’s no longer registered as a physician in New Zealand and is subject to investigation.
for speaking out…bully for her.
Why the down votes again for stating facts, I didn’t give my opinion on the rights or wrongs of that.
Dr Sam Bailey has not “abandoned” medicine but she has stated that she is no longer registered as a practising doctor. After the avalanche of lying these last two years who can blame her? At least Dr Bailey has turned a questioning eye on what passes for “the science.”
Better to have someone who has the guts to speak out than the lazy, prescription filling jokers currently warming their arses in local surgeries for three days a week on grossly inflated salaries courtesy of Bliar.
For a second I thought I had arrived at fullfact.org .
If we take the HIV/AIDS argument, there are credible reasons to doubt that AIDS is caused by HIV alone. Causation has never been proven. HIV may play a part alongside another virus or bacteria or it may simply be exploiting a weakened immune system. We just don’t know.
HIV was fraudulently selected as the cause of AIDS in an unprecedented press conference where zero evidence was supplied (that scientist’s credibility is somewhat diminished by the fact that he stole the discovery of HIV from another scientist). It seems more likely to me that the majority of AIDS cases are caused by the lethal chemotherapy drugs that get issued to anyone who scores a PCR positive for HIV. There are so many warning signs that HIV is a lie, for example the existence of HIV antibodies allegedly confirming HIV infection, whereas for every other virus, antibodies mean you have defeated the virus. Read Kennedys Fauci book and see if it doesn’t make you… erm… sceptical!
About AIDS I too am sceptical that the HI virus solely is responsible for AIDS. I believe that AIDS is quite possibly/probably a disorder caused by a multitude of factors many of them lifestyle/environmental.
About Polio too I am now somewhat sceptical about a direct link between the identified virus and the neurological disorders classed as Polio, after reading some very persuasive articles on the probable/almost certain role of pesticides, eg DDT, in the largest outbreaks.
I am also inclined to believe the arguments that although Measles may be precipitated by a virus the illness that is called measles is very often substantially determined/shaped by nutritional factors, particularly the availability/deficiency of Vitamin A.
I think that the truest picture is that of a synergy between the bacteria + the exosomes that are viruses *with.* the state of the body that they find themselves in.
ie the so called infectious disease types of illnesses are *not* the inevitable result of particular bacteria or viruses, but a possible consequence, *if* other factors are in place.
PS. As such vaccination for probably all of the so called infectious diseases is only half the story, at most, because equally or even more important factors are environmental, nutritional, constitutional/genetic, mental/emotional etc.
But those things cost money and/or definitely don’t make any money for the pharmaceutical companies …. and as such are systematically ignored/dismissed/made to look ridiculous.
Re. Measles, there is a study from 1963 (I have a copy but not a link) which noted that, not only had measles mortality fallen over the the century (between 1900 and the introduction of the single vaccine in 1968 it had fallen by 99%). The study noted that mortality (and long-term mortality) was not uniform, but skewed to poverty.
Exactly. Nutritional factors are the most important in determining the form and degree of what is known as measles, which has is classed as an infectious disease ( therefore supposedly justifying a vaccination programme ) but is more about a person’s nutritional status.
Well I was a breast fed baby and got it at 3 months… back in 1951
Dr MK has set this all out in “Doctoring Data” and on his blog.
Yes, All very well explained and references in the following book:
Dissolving Illusions: Disease, Vaccines, and the Forgotten History by Suzanne Humphries and Roman Bystrianyk
Polio was endemic in the U.K. in the 19th and early 20th centuries. It is passed through the orofaecal route. Not every child developed the paralysis associated with the disease, there was a level of immunity that developed naturally.
When sanitation standards improved the natural immunity declined and the prevalence of the disease increased, particularly in the immediate post WW2 period, which is when there were epidemics across the USA prompting Salk to develop his vaccine. There were outbreaks in the U.K. in the late 1950’s early 1960’s, the East End of London for example, until the oral vaccine became widely administered in the 1960’s. Don’t forget that in a significant number of tenement flats in London there was one toilet for several flats.
The biggest outbreaks occurred in places using pesticides/DDT recklessly across fruit farms, fields, swimming pools with children swimming in them at the time, spraying in highly populated areas.
The outbreaks started soon after the first such pesticides started being used, from the late 1800s onwards.
And the worst outbreaks, in the USA anyway, in the late 40’s- 50s as you say occurred during a period of massive expansion of agro-industrial farming techniques and mass spraying of these pesticides, and disappeared as soon as DDT use was restricted from the mid 50s.
The UK continued to use this type of pesticides for several more years after the US, and only restricted it from the early 60s.
DDT was banned in the USA in 1972 by the FDA.
If DDT was the cause of poliomyelitis then during the trials of the Salk vaccine the rate of occurrence in the different groups should have been the same, they weren’t, the rate in the vaccinated group was significantly less than in the control groups (placebo and no injection), this trial involved thousands of children.
Poliomyelitis, it is believed, was known in ancient Egypt.
If DDT caused poliomyelitis then why is it possible to contract the disease from the faeces of recently vaccinated infants’ nappies?
DDT is a suspected carcinogen.
AIDS just means Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome – it can be ‘acquired’ because of various things, for example, poor nutrition, certain drugs, vaccination too,.. so called V-AIDS.
It was closely linked with HIV and most associate it with that because of poor public education, lazy/misreporting in the media. AIDS thus became synonymous with HIV, so people would say ‘caught AIDS’ when you cannot ‘catch’ AIDS, but you can ‘catch’ HIV. And HIV did not always lead to AIDS in some cases.
We have the conflating of two things now: CoVid = Coronavirus Disease, with SARS Coronavirus 2 which causes CoVid. Nobody is infected with CoVid, they are infected with SARS CoV 2. This might/might not develop into the disease.
PCR Testing was (usefully to Project Fear) misleading because it shows only possible infection with virus not presence of CoVid, the disease. The viral fragments may be post-disease, or be after an infection which did not result in disease. To label all +ve PCR Tests as ‘cases’ was just more of the lies told.
I was about to say something about this. Kennedy in his book “The Real Dr. Fauci” covers HIV/AIDS quite extensively (mostly with respect to Fauci and AZT), but brings up the issue of whether HIV is associated with AIDS or whether it causes AIDS.
And Fauci was involved …
(Remember him? Hasn’t been seen for 3 weeks…)
Indeed the war in Ukraine gave him the perfect opportunity to disappear from the MSM. Wonder why?
Exactly; A Fauci directed multi billion dollar exercise in making money whilst denying vital treatments despite massive lobbying. The refusal by Fauci and those he bought off to ignore the efficacy of Tetracycline whilst he “mandated” – in effect – the use of a toxic drug (AZT) the development of which he appears to have been, shall we say, a significant influencer seems to me to be an identical situation to the EUA scam of mRNA drugs which do not “work” – but what the hell, people still “bought” the scam and the drug.
So much for “established science”…. another example of mendacity for me.
seminal from the Perth group- http://theperthgroup.com/SCIPAPERS/HaemophiliaHIVAIDS.pdf
As Dr Andrew Kaufman has been mentioned in comments, implying that he is a ‘virus denier’, I do remember watching a video of his, and don’t think that’s what he was saying at all. It’s a long time ago, but I seem to remember him saying that we all had various viruses/viral material/whatever in our bodies, and that, when we are below par (and yes he may well have said ‘under attack’!) from harmful things (whatever that may be – foodstuffs, things inhaled etc), that that is when the ‘viruses’ that are already present kick in and cause symptoms, in that they are part of the body’s efforts to rid itself of the toxins, and that ‘ridding’ process is uncomfortable, eg the body expunges via mucus, causing coughs, colds etc. I do remember him claiming that there is no evidence to prove that viruses are ‘transmitted’ from one person to another (by coughing, sneezing etc), although I could quite see (and he might well agree?) that if certain viruses are in the blood of one person (the writer’s point about AIDS and haemophiliacs) then yes of course they would be transferred via blood transfusion. I’ve never heard of Dr Sam… Read more »
A worthy topic Mr Watson, but you really do need an editor. I gave up going all around the houses with the whys and wherefores a third of the way down and just could not face the rest. I just wanted the meat & potatoes as our American cousins say Dr B doesn’t believe viruses exist… I got that, no further explanation required. Now succinctly show your evidence for their existence. Two short paragraphs. Anyway. Viruses which are difficult to classify, somewhere between plant and animal, certainly are demonstrably present in our environment, although only observable inside the cells where they reproduce, they cannot be photographed or cultured like bacteria. i do take issue with SARS CoV2 being ‘novel’ = ‘ different from anything seen or known before’. But, clue in the name, CoV 2 means there was a CoV 1. That CoV 2 had different characteristic – novel? – is true of all organisms that have mutated. Human Beings – each baby born being a mutant – are all ‘novel’ in that respect. However ‘novel’ used to describe CoV 2 was just part of the fear-machine to make us believe it was of a type never before encountered and… Read more »
I agree. It’s padded out way too much and the Covid denier slurs, claims of echo chambers, just ruins it. I think a lot of the confusion is the fact that so many proxies are used to “isolate” the virus and leaves a lot of room for criticism. It’s almost as if the language used to explain to the layman that they do exist and cause a specific illness isn’t sufficient. For example they tell us viruses are not alive in the way bacterium are. And yet they “infect” cells and create disease. How? If its inert, how is able to do anything and, in addition, how does it come with any “intention” do do something? Others say that it’s not alive but more just a piece of information. Again, the language is nuts. How does a piece of information actually perform the actions they claim it does? Where do they actually get this ability to act on human cells? They are not living. If you ask the question “how does SARS-CoV-2 cause Covid”, the answer you get is inevitably wrapped up in language of the virus doing stuff. And yet it isn’t alive. So what exactly is making it… Read more »
Are they ‘natural’ mRNA, messengers that change DNA? Existing in a pea soup of mRNA could point to explanaitions of a lot of things.
Still hasn’t been isolated.
As Dr Bailey has said on more than one occasion, the Euro 100k prize for proving the existence of the COVID-19 virus has yet to be claimed despite ‘several’ scientists claiming they have proved so. When questioned by Dr Bailey and her colleagues, all of them admitted they in reality have not proven its existence.
Odd how (IMHO) Dr Watson conveniently forgets that. Also odd how the definition of ‘isolation’ has been changed in recent years to mean something that bears no resemblence to the dictionary term.
‘Computer-generated guess based on a soup of unidentified stuff and previous guesses’ seems to me more accurate for how they ‘isolate’ and ‘sequence’ viruses these days.
Dr Zach Bush had a lot of interesting information about viruses and the virome.
yes! I love Zach Bush, I’m going to watch this again https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJxjdGtuEs4 I think a lot of the problem is that we are talking about different things and we need to define our terms. Zach Bush talks about the 10 to the 15 ‘viruses’ in our blood all the time, that can upgrade genetic info. But technically a virus is a poison that can’ infect’ cells and be the cause of disease in anyone if present in sufficient amounts. So there needs to be another word for the packets of genetic information floating around, because they are not ‘viruses’. Genetic sequences seem to be expressed when organisms are stressed and are a communication tool, to other cells and organisms. A fascinating area that’s not being looked into because the powers that be need to keep the virus dogma going.
Duesberg discredited? And you provide a link to Wikipedia!!!!!!! Are you kidding me? Duesberg has not been discredited, on the contrary, his seminal paper 1987 paper Retroviruses as Carcinogens and Pathogens: Expectations and Reality in Cancer Research, 1 March 1987 has never been rebutted. Wikipedia? What a joke. This site is starting to turn into something very different.
The article above reads like something the Independent would print, attacking those with a different view to the mainstream ‘settled’ opinion. And look how fast the usual pro-vax trolls magically showed up to show support…
That’s what I thought on seeing the title. I wouldn’t have believed it but for the other article today asking if the west has a leg to stand on complaining about Russia, to which the obvious answer is no. It’s quite weird and sad to suddenly find myself on a site posting these kinds of arguments! 😕 🙁
PS. As you say, using Wikipedia ref Duesberg is unbelievably poor journalism. D’s research and argument has become increasingly powerful, relevant and respected if anything..
Yes, it’s not only poor journalism, it instantly signals that the author of the piece has got nothing. Obviously has no clue about Duesberg and the entire debate around HIV. Just lumps it all together. Really pathetic stuff. Seriously what is going on at Daily Sceptic? It’s jumped the shark.
Yep 🙁
They are pro-free speech, so maybe they’re going to give Dr Bailey a right of reply so that we readers can make our own minds up. Some of us may disagree with Dr Watson, but banning him is just as bad as the MSM and Big Tech/Social Media do on their platforms/sites.
If someone is talking rubbish, then a healthy debate from both sides and reasoned comments should get to the truth of the matter.
I too am infuriated by this article – I expect better from DS. He says, “I would like to hear Duesberg or Sam Bailey explain how haemophiliacs contracted AIDS from blood infusions. Somehow, I think they’ll have a stock response to that one.” which is a particulary ridiculously circular argument. I don’t know about Bailey, but Deusburg deals with the issue of haemophiliacs and blood transfusions in his book, Inventing the Aids virus and provides a very plausible explanation of the data. Dismissing this as a ‘stock response’ is both ignorant and disingenuous.
Dr sam’s brilliant rebuttal https://drsambailey.com/covid-19/the-covid-sceptics-who-spread-viral-dogma/
In <i>Inventing the AIDS virus</i>, Duesberg devotes an entire appendix to the question of haemophiliacs, reprinted from a 20 page paper published in the Springer journal <i>Genetica</i>. In brief, he suggests that factor VIII was contaminated by foreign proteins and that these brought about AIDS in haemophiliacs, not HIV which was also present as a passenger virus. He may or may not be right, and new evidence may have emerged since then, but he is a distinguished scientist who follows orthodox scientific methodology, and I find the angry, scornful tone unwarranted.
As a – very very – sceptical non scientist – I completely agree; all I have read in the last two years suggests that the statement “Duesberg discredited” renders this guy deeply untrustworthy, and very possibly “agenda driven”. Would he also opine that Luc Montagnier was, during his lifetime, similarly “discredited” for coming to much the same conclusion as Duesberg, and independently? Would he also smear Dr Lo and the discovery of the existence of mycoplasma which apparently led to Fauci/Gallo hunkering down – a sure sign of morally bankruptcy – RFK Jnr sets out how they refuse to discuss HHV6 – I am assuredly a non scientist, but in a morally and ethical characterised scientific community I do not believe these factors would NOT be discussed between otherwise highly intelligent people trying to find solutions. Perhaps “Follow the Money” has replaced Utmost Good Faith and First Do No Harm in so called western “civilisation” (other translations are available). What I find deeply disturbing is that Watson and others like him, just as with politicians, don’t seem to care that once me as a shining example of “Joe Public” discovers how intellectually/morally/ethically bankrupt they reveal themselves to be, their reputation… Read more »
One of the benefits of the last two years is an improvement in my understanding of what a virus is. I have seen video of Mullis saying that Montagnier could not provide his with a paper proving the HIV AIDS link (I had always assumed that to be ‘settled science’). ‘Lifestyle’ certainly seems to play a part, as did Fauci with AZT. That he is still around is a scandal, perhaps his retirement will be another benefit.
i thought so too, thought i was reading the wrong newsletter ! as soon as saw headline what is going on !
In my view, Dr. Watson plays the woman (heavily criticising Dr Bailey’s delivery) not the ball a lot, and refers a LOT of his ‘evidence’ to other people who do the same to others who, when pressed by Dr Bailey and her collegues, confirmed that the SAR-Co-2 virus had indeed NOT been isolated. The NZ blog ‘refuting’ of her comments in my view does the same, including where it says that centfruging a ‘soup’ of tiny particules miraculously separates them into virus and everything else, at which point it is ‘separated’, grown (in another culture) and DNA sequenced, but not mentioning how do they know any particules are a virus, plus the ‘sequencing’ is computer-generated educated guesses based on previous generation guesses for the ‘base’ virus. Essentially deeming Y is a virus, so Y x1.001 also is a virus, but without isolating one nucleus, extracting its genetic material, then making solely more ot it (i.e. direct copies) and then trying to infect via normal means (not forcing it down a monkey’s throat of injecting it into their eye/brain in large amounts) and seeing if they ‘experience any adverse effects’. Dr Bailey regularly and effectively refutes all these claims – the… Read more »
I am in full agreement. 👍
Nutters to the left of me. Nutters to the right.
Here we are stuck in the middle being reasonable
A word that increasingly means able to use reason, which clearly the hysterical cannot.
I think that Dr Watson is more than ungenerous as to his description of Dr Bailey and her views. Just because he describes her as X (and especially and unfairly tying her to [IMHO] actual wackos like David Icke) does not mean that is the truth. It’s what he says it is, which ain’t the same – it’s just an opinion.
I hope that someone from their camp may be willing and permitted to provide a counterattack.
yes, this is the problem you are highlighting – theyARE willing but NOT permitted…as per all things scientific at the moment. The Science is settled and we will brook no argument….
I’ve contacted her via her website to that effect. Hopefully Toby will let her.
Let’s do this! The shock effect will be biblical.
https://drsambailey.com/covid-19/the-covid-sceptics-who-spread-viral-dogma/ here it is . Dr Watson unwilling to discuss ‘the science’ with her!
Hence my invitation to the author to confirm if “established science” is the same as “settled science” as far as he is concerned…
I don’t know why you bother. Those who deny the existence of viruses (it still doen’t feel right to me not to use viri if I remember my schoolboy Latin right) are a tiny minority and are likely to influence an increasing small number of people.
Unlike the stupid phrase climate denial, where there are lots of educated people who don’t subscribe to the increasing tenuous claim that climate change is induced primarily by anthropogenic CO2 levels, there is a vanishingly small cohort of virus deniers who have yet not come up with any other verifiable hypothesis for viral disease effectss.
Beg pardon, but we virological atheists are not obliged to replace one fairy tale with another.
Vira – if you insist they exist.
Terrain Theory – explains everything that virology can’t!
`As an ex materials research scientist with a background in electron microscopy. I’m sure that viruses can be shown to exist using a transmission electron microscope?
No, and primarily because they don’t exist.
I’ve personally never seen anything that convinces me against the broad mainstream understanding of what a virus is. However it is always and without exception a mistake to dismiss those who oppose the mainstream view with ad hominem attacks rather than addressing the issues. At best, by not arguing down their position you fuel the belief they are being persecuted for something the powers that be want hidden (cf holocaust denial) at worst, you stifle progress. It was widely held at the end of the 19th century that science was “settled” on the Newtonian model of the universe. If people who questioned the consensus had been shunned, ridiculed and had their funding cut we might be a long way back from where we are now in terms of our understanding of physics. Even Darwinian evolution – that flagship of “settled science” has come under some scrutiny recently and there’s the growing understanding there is more to it than just natural selection through chance mutation. The point being that time and again in science a theory that has been absolutely and totally established as unshakeable fact that only a fool would question has eventually turned out to be, if not bunkum,… Read more »
This is the only defensible position and the one that will lead to the most progress and happiness
The only problem is that, as long as belief in cough and kill granny exists, there are no compelling arguments against “stay home, save lives” and “if it saves just one life!” and the implications therein.
Very well put.
I listened to her on The Dellingpod. I’m sorry but if I was part of the NZ GMC equivalent I would have removed her right to practice medicine. She talks complete and utter nonsense. I think even JD sounded taken aback and that’s saying something.
Medicine is mostly nonsense. In the US, healthcare may well be the leading cause of death.
Yes, I read that iatrogenic effects ( medically caused ) *are* in fact one of the leading causes of death. I avoid doctors ( and dentists ) and hospitals like the plague.
Please demonstrate what nonsence and why. Just because someone (else) says it is doesn’t make it true. She mostly asks pertinent questions of scientists and clincians who buy into the so-called long-established facts, but 99% of the time they cannot give any answers other than playing the man not the ball.
Isn’t that the sum and substance of the writer’s contention, that people who claim that viruses should be dismissed, as cranks, because of course they exist ? So’s his uncle.
Yep. The proverbial House of Cards the Establishment theory is built upon has no foundation because, IMHO, they still have yet to prove the first generation viruses exist.
A lot of the time they, in my view, use effect to prove cause,a dn dismiss other (very imporatnt) factors at play, as I allude to in other comments.
I would like to see Dr Watson and Dr Bailey have a live debate, though I suspect the former would chicken out of doing so because they would know their arguments don’t stand up.
I agree that it wasn’t a very good interview, but all it was was one interview.
She is already under investigation.
At the moment I tend to the view that any Doctor “under investigation” is probably asking pertinent questions that the authorities don’t want to answer.
Not in her case.
Could you provide some details on that assertion?
Any “registered” doctor who denies that viruses exists and does not offer their patient anti-viral medication is potentially causing harm to that patient and deserves to be “investigated” by the people that employ them.
I personally wouldn’t take anti-virals but others would.
It’s very much like being a pastor and confessing to the board of elders that you no longer believe in God.
Oh, goody. With luck they’ll burn the witch at the stake for daring to take on the “scientific concensus”.
Book your front row seat now, bro’.
There’s “scientific consensus” based on fact.
Then there’s “scientific belief” just to sell a book.
She’s in the latter group.
In your opinion. On many occasions ‘out of the box’ thinking has lead to theories and supposed ‘fact’ being overturned or at the very least modified in science.
BTW, as far as I know, Dr Bailey does specifically deny the existence of viruses, just that they have not been properly identified nor (because of the former) been specifically proven to cause disease – whether in part or full.
Sounds to me like you are a worshipper of the ‘God’ that is Fauci and his money and power hungry colleagues.
To me, it sounds like you haven’t actually bothered to either fully watch her videos (which, unlike others on your side do contain medical advice as well as opinions on COVID, etc) or have read the book she contributed to with 3 others, two of which are also respected clinicians/scientists.
You are creating strawman arguments.
I admire many alternative medics and scientists because their evidence stacks up.
How on earth do you come to the conclusion that I “worship” Fauci?
The man is a cretin.
Bailey has some interesting health videos but her books and videos which categorically state that “viruses do not exist” shows she either has no understanding of modern virology OR she just wants to be controversial to make money from the gullible.
The term “scientific consensus” is an oxymoron. True science is not based on consensus and never has been.
Healthcare is likely the leading cause of death. Perhaps she believes she fled the killing fields.
Virology is the modern day equivalent of demonology.
@Roger – If you had a broader base to your knowledge, you’d know that the “viruses don’t exist” position tracks to Rudolf Steiner.
And viruses track to “gods are angry” in pre-Roman times.
Maybe so, and a lot could be said about the use of the rainbow symbol (the curved depiction of a rainbow, not the flag) in Britain in 2020-21, but the trackback of the denial of the existence of viruses to Steiner is more specific. The use of the term “organic” to mean foods grown without the use of artificial fertilisers also tracks back to Steiner. (I like to tell people “all food is organic”, but usually I receive blank stares.) Then there is the “fifth extinction”.
This might be old news… the blog doesn’t actually seem to say who ‘Alison’ is.
“sam bailey on isolating viruses, and why she is wrong”
https://blog.waikato.ac.nz/bioblog/2021/04/sam-bailey-on-isolating-viruses-and-why-she-is-wrong/
Another media outlet in NZ tried (and failed) to smear Dr Bailey – she successfully refuted every one of their claims in one of her videos and things went quiet afterwards. As I understand it, she’s also now taking the NZ authorities to court because they’ve effectively tried to suspend her licence.
Dr. Sam takes no prisoners. If I know her, she’ll put together a crushing rebuttal of this article soon.
If TY gives her space for all of us to gauge against our own fear/prejudices/confirmation biases that otherwise might be called “judgement”…
https://www.waikato.ac.nz/staff-profiles/people/acampbel
Somewhere in Renaissance, at the height of the debate about our place in the Universe, that guy called Galileo was tried and sentenced for the idea that Earth moves around the Sun. I think most of us know that he was forced to ditch the claim. In the 1920ies quite a few renowned physicists were still believing that Universe consists of our one galaxy alone, they didn’t want to hear about its real size. … What I’m trying to say is that idea of what is true and established in nowhere as frail and unstable as in science….
Unfortunately there’s too much money and power involved these days foir much of science to be properly scrutinised. Many people, including the MSM and most of the general public, still erroneously think that clinicians and scientists are amongst the most ethical and trustworthy people on the planet, and thus we should completely trust what they say. In my own experience dealing with many of them over the years as an engineer, I can safely say they are at least as flawed (and often far more so) than most of us, bearing in mind that scientific (including medical) discovery is very much akin to politics and entertainment – people who seek fame and fortune for their work, with big egos and who aren’t averse to ethical or moral violations to achieve their career objectives. That’s not to say they’re all like that. I’d also say that the modern societal weak-mindedness of needing to conform and piling on those who are sceptics (or just asking pertinent questions) in order to protect themselves also plays a part – reflected in the way (un)social media works. Notice how ‘debates’ often rapidly descend into petty (and pointless) bickering, because people know they aren’t up to… Read more »
It’s a good article, but using the HIV/AIDS example is probably a bad one. In 1990 at the San Francisco AIDS conference, HIV co-discoverer Luc Montagnier announced that HIV did not, after all, kill T-cells and could not be the cause of AIDS. Within hours of making this announcement, he was attacked by the very industry he’d helped to create.”Now in an interview between Leung a film maker, Luc Montagnier admitted that HIV virus is harmless and therefore our immune system can get rid of the HIV virus within a few weeks, if you have a good immune system.“I believe HIV we can be exposed to HIV many times without bring chronically infected, our immune system will get rid of the virus within a few weeks, if you have a good immune system; and this is the problem also of the African people. https://www.modernghana.com/news/903640/hivaids-greatest-medical-fraud-of-21st-century-causing-cl.html The term Denier is a bad choice of words IMO, it’s a substitute shorthand to save oneself wordly explinations, armwaving opposing arguments away, without which the nuance of the arguments leaves room for opponents to find fault in the overall thesis. “Denier” “conspiracy theorist” are all term that should be avoided in intellectual debate if they’re… Read more »
2/2 Dan Sirotkin (original DRASTIC researcher) So as Pigpen has been trying to warn humanity for decades, each of us carries around the quasispecies swarm of whatever airborne viruses we host whether we notice it or not. Pretty much no one reading this would be diagnosed with influenza right now, but take enough healthy readers and stick them in a closed environment for a long enough time – and the swarm always wins. This was demonstrated most clearly on an Antarctic research base after seventeen weeks of complete isolation. This mysterious outbreak struck half of the dozen men isolated at the bottom of the world, and strangely scientists were never able to isolate and identify the causative agent: “Found no diagnostic rises in antibody titre against influenza viruses A and B, mumps, adenovirus, herpes simplex and ornithosis. All attempts at virus isolation from throat, nose and faeces swabs were unsuccessful.” However this phenomenon is simply the other end of the spectrum from the disappearance of the seasonal flu in 2020: RNA viruses have the ability to lie dormant in their hosts until a threshold of transmission events are reached following interactions with swarms from other hosts, at which point they… Read more »
Thanks for that, an excellent summary. I too believe it is likely that germ theory is invalid and this viral swarm theory seems interesting and worthy of further investigation. It feels there needs to be a shift in virology similar to the eventual realisation that the earth revolves around the sun.
Edit, which I have just seen the next comment coincidentally discusses.
Ditto. 🙂
I think the problem is the incredibly dumb people that go into public health. They think the public is as dumb as they are, so they resort to vast simplifications to try to nudge people to act a certain way. Often, the way they want people to act is also dumb.
A large animal is an incredibly complicated system that is in a controlled equilibrium with the environment. It is not as a simple as “exposed to germ- infected- disease- cured/death”. The models are junk. It is more like trying to predict the weather.
I am not a scientist, although I did study Philosophy of Science, and did start listening to TWIV at the start of the scare. Two things quickly became apparent: first they were all quite bitter that they hadn’t had the funding they felt they deserved over the previous years; and second they were highly politicised to the point where anything uttered by Trump was immediately trashed. It also seemed that they had connections to Peter Dacszac (I think that’s his name) who was involved in what went on at Wuhan. Anyway I stopped listening as their narrative became less and less authentic.
I never watched it myself, Johnathan Couey (neuro biologist – gigaohmbiological.com) often played clips from TWIV on his educational biology streams, a group of tenured professors and professional virologists no less, to highlight their lack of understanding regarding the innate and adaptive immune systems, highlighting the knots they had to tie themselves into in order to stay on narrative re Corona virus and the vaccines.
Any scientist who thinks they know everything is an idiot. It used to be believe that stomach ulcers were caused by stress but when two brilliant scientists back in the eighties questioned this and did an experiment to prove that the cause of stomach ulcers was bacteria, they were ridiculed for their discovery.
Every virus denier knows that viruses supposedly don’t have to fulfill Koch’s postulates, but the point we are making is that there is absolutely no reason to believe so. Strict demand of Koch’s postulates fulfillment is based on logic and common sense and the fact that they have been rejected by mainstream medical community doesn’t refute that, it was simply an error from the very beginning. Instead of arguing from authority you’d have to explain WHY they don’t have to be fulfilled and neither you in your article, nor to my knowledge anybody anywhere, has been able to convincingly do that.
Anyway, the article was pretty fair so thank you for that.
Much as I have tried to remain open to even fringe ideas like Bailey’s (as a sceptic and non molecular biologist!), I have never believed for a minute that SARS Cov-2 doesn’t exist and have had quite a few ding-dongs on the subject on this forum. I am convinced that when I ‘caught Covid’ I had something new – the loss of taste and smell was unlike anything I’ve experienced before, even though I wasn’t at any point particularly ill.
If viruses don’t exist, then what are all these biological warfare labs working on exactly?
The most plausible explanation for covid to me is that it is a chimeric virus created in a gain of function lab, most likely Fort Dietrick. By far the most compelling and plausible explanations for this outbreak have been provided by Dr David Martin and dr Judy Mikovits. To see SARS-Cov2 as a bioweapon is a pretty fringe idea but when I listen to Martin or Mikovits, I absolutely believe them.
Sam Bailey has some good ideas about nutrition, but yes, I think she’s gone too far when it comes to germ theory and claiming there’s no virus doesn’t do our side any favours.
That’s like saying don’t believe her ‘fringe theory’ but believe ‘someone else’s’.
She asks a LOT of hard-hitting questions that, as yet, no-one on the other side can answer without invoking circular reasoning or using ‘because it is’ type responses.
If they don’t have anything to hide, why do they always get so defensive when asked to definitively prove themselves?
What’s wrong with believing one fringe idea over another? Martin & Mikovits have real credentials and a mountain of documentary evidence. Shouldn’t all ideas be judged on their merits? We’re in a sea of information and misinformation, all we’ve got are our instincts and judgement based on how credible the sources seem.
That’s true, but I’d refrain from rubbishing one just because you personally believe one over the other. They are, both theories, after all. Obviously both cannot be completely correct, but they could in part.
Those biolabs could be experiementing on ‘tiny paricles’ even if they cannot be sure exactly what they are, and still (if released into the environment) cause havoc one way or the other.
Thje problem is (as is common these days) there’s lots of theories and speculation and not much in the way of incontrovertible proof, mainly because few people want to stick their neck out and put put their careers and livelihoods on the line to prove things one way or the other.
It doesn’t help either that doing so requires a great deal of resources and to be completely open about ever aspect of your work. very few people are willing to take such risks, because there’s very little for them to gain if they are working against the majority/Establishment view, especially in today’s media and technological world where reutations can be shattered in moments (including unfairly)..
Ascertainment bias, as loss of taste and smell are nothing new. I swear, it’s like nobody ever detoxed prior to 2020. Or maybe I’m just one of those ding-dongs.
I didn’t say people were ding-dongs, I said I’d had ding-dongs! Believe me I am a total sceptic when it comes to the plandemic but the fact is I had something weird, as did my equally sceptical close friend who’d I’d been with, and the test (which I’d been rubbishing since it’s advent) confirmed an infection. I simply can’t infer anything from that other than I had a virus and it got detected. Happy to be proved wrong though!
Apologies! Ding-dongs means something else in ‘American.’ But back to weird illnesses … nocebo effect is POWERFUL, never moreso than in the past couple of years.
I think Dr Sam Bailey is very credible and very thoughful.
She gave up a career as a tv Doctor because she refused to go with the flow and support the cv19 narrative, as the cv19 debacle progressed she came to the view that all of virology was bunk not just cv19 and had the courage to say so.
I always assumed that virology was credible and valid until cv19 and I began exploring the topic, it turns out that virology is most likely fake science that has been used to create a massive and lucrative pharmaceutical empire.
Sam Bailey’s presentations can be viewed here-
https://odysee.com/@drsambailey:c
This is a compliations of some presentations where the core claims of virology are disproven –
VIROLOGY ON TRIAL: Drs Cowan, Kaufman & Lanka Debunk Viral Theory? You Decide!https://odysee.com/@TimTruth:b/virology-on-trial-2:6
Same here.
The moment I hear the word ‘denier’ when someone is discussing matters of a scientific nature I know that I’m in the presence of a closed and unscientific mind. As for the comment
“Dr. Sam Bailey is a photogenic New Zealand doctor…”
why don’t you just say ‘she’s a bit of all right, a good looking bird’. What have Sam Bailey’s looks got to do with it for heaven’s sake?
I like her “ack-seent” too.
personally, I can’t be doing with her vowel mismanagement!
Ergo, viruses DO exist! Well, if it suffices for the writer …
Oh come on CG. Allowances have to be made for location. Dr Sam lives in New Zealand and the way she speaks English reflects that.
I live in the North West of England and doubtless my accent, my vernacular might be off-putting to some.