Has the West Got a Leg to Stand On When it Complains of Putin’s Disregard for International Law and Other Moral Norms?
We’re publishing a guest post by Adrian Brown, a former Royal Australian Air Force Legal Officer, about whether it’s reasonable to expect Russia to be constrained by moral norms, particularly in light of the failure of Britain and the United States to always observe those norms themselves when the national interest is at stake.
If you’re anything like me, the sooner you forget the sight of Ukraine asking the UN Security Council, chaired by Russia with its power of veto, to vote for a motion demanding that Russia stop its invasion and withdraw its troops, the better. The UN reported that several of its members described Russia’s veto as “inevitable but deplorable”. It’s hard to imagine anything more enervating.
Russia is in clear breach of Article 2(4) of the UN Charter. Although the ICC has opened a war crimes investigation, Russia has withdrawn from the underlying treaty and is not subject to its jurisdiction. Before you rush to judgement, the United States has withdrawn too. Russia’s indifference to international law is best illustrated by its appeal to Article 51 of the UN Charter which deals with the right to self-defence. Token at best, mockery at worst. We all know that, without an independent enforcement mechanism, treaties are not like contracts in a rule-of-law based jurisdiction, and international law more generally contains a strong voluntary element.
We often hear experts say that Russia only understands hard power. But before we give up on international law, norms, and other constraints, it’s worth asking whether there is any basis for believing that a state is constrained by moral standards and, to the extent that the West has breached those standards itself, we can demand that Russia complies with them.
The sceptical analysis of Russia’s invasion restates the doctrine that foreign policy should only be concerned with a state’s interests and not with morality. It often suggests that Russia’s interests include ensuring that Ukraine does not join NATO. The West’s response to the invasion, driven in part by moral outrage, is naïve, misguided and even irresponsible. Instead, Western states should have dispassionately examined whether confronting Russia served their interests. If it did not, they should have looked the other way.
The underlying principle is not, however, quite what it seems. In the academic and policy discussions, the qualifying phrase ‘legitimate interests’ is often used, rather than interests. Morality is smuggled in through the word ‘legitimate’ which requires a value judgement. We hear echoes of this in the so-called Laws of Armed Conflict, codified in the Geneva Convention, with their focus on limiting the use of lethal force to military targets, such as combatants and weapons systems, and proportionality.
More significantly, even if a state wishes to pursue its interests without reference to legitimacy or morality, it is constrained by the animating morality of its people. There are well established philosophical and political theories for this proposition, but it might be simpler to just look at states’ real-world behaviour for evidence of it.
During the two Gulf wars, we saw regular briefings by the United States, including detailed information about target selection accompanied by video footage of smart bombs arrowing into their targets. This was because, from Vietnam onward, the West understood that it was constrained by public opinion driven, at least in part, by moral imperatives. It is not just the West that is vulnerable to public opinion. You might ask yourself why President Putin bothered to create his outlandish narrative about liberating Ukrainians from an oppressive regime controlled by drug-taking Nazis – and why he backed it up with criminal laws intended to prevent the domestic and foreign media, and Russian citizens via social media, presenting evidence that contradicts this narrative. This arch-realist knows that he, too, is constrained by public opinion.
In Britain, people may point to the Stop the War rallies before the second Gulf war, and the continuing and somewhat hysterical fixation on Tony Blair’s alleged misconduct, to demonstrate that there were no moral constraints on the British state. At the time, however, public opinion favoured the war. The eventual backlash in public opinion then drove Ed Miliband’s successful opposition to military intervention in Syria. And regardless, a state may ignore moral constraints in the same way an individual might. In neither case should we conclude that moral constraints don’t exist.
There is, of course, a huge overlap between a state’s legitimate interests and morality. It is the first duty of a state to provide for the protection, health, and prosperity of its people. There will be times when a foreign policy decision ostensibly based on moral imperatives also serves a state’s interests. And any mature moral outlook must afford other peoples the right to choose their own form and style of government – to live and let live.
As we watch Russia’s invasion progress and see clear evidence of women and children being targeted and killed as they try to evacuate charred residential suburbs, we can say with certainty that Russia has far exceeded its legitimate interests and is in breach of international law and generally accepted moral standards. Does this matter? Yes it does. It matters because ultimately the Russian people will decide how long President Putin remains in power and, as he has proven by his own conduct, the Russian people are more likely to act if they are morally outraged. Or to put it more practically, they are less likely to put up with soldiers being killed and economic sanctions when they don’t believe in the cause.
It also matters because, while the moral element in foreign affairs is, for very good reason, primarily a constraining force, it can also be an effective call to action. The moral outrage that Russia’s invasion has provoked has been a galvanising and unifying force among the nations of the world. It is the near universality of the response that provides its practical and moral force. It is also why otherwise cool and clear-eyed analysis of trivial actions, like Disney deciding not to distribute films in Russia, misses the point.
The sceptical analysis of this situation rightly asks whether the West can condemn and, by extension, confront Russia because Western countries have themselves engaged in direct and indirect action to overthrow the governments of sovereign states. This idea is particularly pertinent if you believe that the United States covertly supported, and potentially even helped foment, the Maidan revolution in 2014.
You can see the attraction of this position. It has a veneer of fairness, balance, and impartiality. It is, however, merely splashing about in the shallow end of the political and moral pool.
Firstly, it assumes a moral equivalence between the Russian invasion of Ukraine and, for example, the Gulf wars or the United States’ alleged actions in Ukraine. I’m not sure this bears much analysis, but neither time nor space permit a detailed examination here. Secondly, no matter how squeamish you are about these things, you can still proceed on the basis that the wrongs of the past can be acknowledged while the wrongs of the present are challenged. To suggest otherwise strains credibility.
More importantly, there is a risk that this position could be used, wittingly or unwittingly, to disguise the frightening consequences of a multi-polar world in which, below the surface chop, powerful opposing currents flow. Freedom and self-determination, the rights and dignity of the individual, limits on the use of coercion and state sponsored violence are being contested. Go ahead and criticise the West when you think it justified – that is your right and perhaps even duty. But that is very different to insisting that the West disqualifies itself from the greater struggle and simply concedes these fundamental human principles on behalf of itself and the people of the world.
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War is tragic, it comes at great cost to all and there is always collateral, unfortunately!
But.. It’s never as simple as good guys vs bad guys, a few thousand years of history has shown me this
Good guys and bad guys eh?
Don’t mind all the
radical Islamists and actual terrorists“freedom fighters” arriving in Ukraine from Syria to fight for NATO. They’ll go nicely will all the weapons the West has funnelled into the country.The war didn’t start last month with a Russian “invasion”. It started in 2014 or earlier with foreign meddling. Seriously this is a complete de ja vu of the Syrian conflict of the last decade, only with a more hysterical brainwashed audience. Just like Covid was a complete de ja vu of Swine Flu of the last decade, only with a more hysterical brainwashed audience.
Exactly, not as simple as good vs bad and it never is.. What constitutes a person’s view of good and bad probably depends on multitude of factors and view points..
But yes, the mass formation hypnosis is really strong with this, despite being lied to by the gov and the media for two years..
People seem only to willing to lap up the narrative even more.. sadly
This war did started last month with a Russian invasion. The civil war in eastern Ukraine started because of foreign, specifically, Russian, meddling in 2014.
The article being linked to (from the Godawfullian, obviously) was written by a British Stalinist who once was Corbyn’s director of communication. Unsurprisingly, he’s a Russian cheerleader and – as unsurprisingly – everyone who opposes anything Russia might do must be a nazi, far-rightist, white-supremacist etc.
Someone who believes that CRT is nothing but a communist propaganda ploy might find the text revealing. They might not have invented. But they surely employ the vocabulary aptly.
“The civil war in eastern Ukraine started because of foreign, specifically, Russian, meddling in 2014.“
Nope, the civil war was a response to the nationalist takeover following the coup, which occurred after the Maidan protest dispute had been resolved with a messy EU-brokered compromise. The ultras were not prepared to wait for the agreed elections and knew they had US backing.
It wasn’t. So-called pro-russian separatists declaring two provinces of Ukraine independent was a response to that. This led to a not-so-covertly Russian-backed civil war in Ukraine. In the early stages of that, while everyone was distracted by it, Russia annexed Crimea. Presumably, this provided a convenient diversion and enabled Putin to keep a foot in the door, to be exploited at a suitable time for that, ie, now/ 2022.
There’s no reason to assume the EU Laberoffensive in Ukraine (German labern is English to blather, presumably, both have a common, germanic stem) had any more effects than similar maneuvers had in Syria before, ie after the most honorouable ambassadors had departed, everybody ignored the so-called results of all the talking.
“So called pro-russian separatists” held a referendum in which a majority of people voted for independence from Ukraine. If you believe in democracy then that means that if a majority of people in a certain area wish to be an independent nation they should be considered a de facto independent nation. It therefore follows that in 2014 Ukraine attacked an independent nation, and Russia granted what the people of Crimea voted for, i.e. to become part of Russia as they were up until the 1950’s. Therefore there is no way that we can says the Ukrainians are the good guys, although it’s still possible to say that in terms of the current invasion the Russians are worse. Anybody who is a sceptic should question the way the MSM is covering the conflict. It seems to me that they take everything the Ukrainians claim at face value and dismiss everything the Russians say as misinformation. Given that Zelensky is desperate for Nato to intervene it’s clearly in his interest to lie about civilian casualties and attacks on civilian areas. The photo of the bloodstained pregnant woman is pretty much the only picture I’ve seen of dead or wounded civilians, which I… Read more »
“So called pro-russian separatists” held a referendum in which a majority of people voted for independence from Ukraine. If you believe in democracy then that means that if a majority of people in a certain area wish to be an independent nation they should be considered a de facto independent nation.
Holy non sequitur, batman! If people in a certain region declare themselves independent from the state on whose territory the region happens to be, that’s called an uprising, something which states usually try to suppress by force (and usually succeed in suppressing). But that’s a rather theoretical point.
I’m going to ignore the remainder of the monologue as there’s nothing in it which hasn’t been stated a gazillion times already, save for one thing: War is not a fight between good and evil but a fight between two states with conflicting interests or – rephrasing a German saying (Gott ist immer auf Seiten der stärkeren Battaillone) – God is always on the side of the victorious army.
Does this mean that if Scotland voted for independence in 2014 it would be an uprising? I know of certain people in Scotland who are also vocal supporters of the Catalonians in their bid for independence from Spain. If you support the right of people in Scotland to decide their own future, even if you think remaining part of the U.K. is the sensible decision, then logically you should support the people of Catalonia and by extension the people of the Donbass region.
Uprising is simply a term used by people that want to preserve the status quo to smear people who want to change it, and sometimes the status quo needs changing, otherwise the Republic of Ireland would still be part of Britain (for example) which would clearly be wrong as that isn’t what the vast majority of it’s citizens want.
Just because something usually happens i.e. a state trying to suppress seperratism by force, usually happens, it doesn’t make it right.
Self-determination of peoples is something US president Wilson invented as pretext for dismantling Austria-Hungary and Germany. Since early 1945, we also know how such peoples are created when the need arises: Expel everyone whose ethnicity isn’t to your liking by force. The idea that this act of self-serving brutality would somehow translate into a positive moral right is … eh … interesting.
If you want a reply to the implied question: Military might decided it back then, Military might will decide it now. Window dressing will be applied afterwards. But didn’t I already write that?
‘So called ‘ by the ‘so called’ Ukrainian ” “democrats”( sic) AKA the “so called” Azov Brigade of Neo Nazis with their 2nd SS Panzer Division, “Das Reich” runic badges and their ‘ethnic cleansing’ of Russians objective in the Donbas.
“specifically, Russian, meddling in 2014.” Oh that’s a cracker. Look up Ihor Kolomoiski.
“Russian meddling” in 2014?
Victoria Nuland is Ukrainan-Jewish in heritage and hates Russia!
Good Lord, how old are you?
Older than I should be after the last two years 👊
Older than you, it would seem.
Macedonian media
‘Alexander liberates City of Tyre from Persian oppression’
City of Tyre media
He’s massacred everyone, anyone he hasn’t killed will be enslaved or sold
Reality – he did massacre and ransack the city
And it’s never as the government, media and opinion-fashionistas say it is.
I haven’t seen any sceptic position arguing that because the West was immoral in wars in the past, we should ‘concede’ this one to Russia and presumably not object, if I’ve understood the author’s thesis correctly. Seems like a straw man to me, unless he can point to a sceptic taking this stance. Perhaps I need to get out more, but it’s not an argument I have heard in the public square so far.
His argument really boils down to: yes we’ve done bad things in the past, no one is perfect, but we are still better than Russia and Putin. We do bad things from time to time but he is fundamentally awful.
It’s a tired old argument that the west could make when it actually pretended to stand for freedom and individual liberties. But now that it has morphed into an ideological, quasi-religious regime, crushing the individual freedoms of its people, aggressively censoring thought and opinion and abandoning due process, it’s really a hollow argument.
If you ask me who I fear more right now, Putin or our own leaders, I tell you it is our own leaders without hesitation.
Yes, the “leaders” of the west are behaving with such a concentrated combo of recklessness, stupidity and desperation ( in the face of threat to their empire ) that I’m afraid of what they might be ready to do/destroy in order to defend themselves.
And there seems to be an underlying tendency towards total destruction of the current system ( in order to replace it with an equally/even more profitable better controlled one ) rather than see their power diminish, which is alarming.
Some would say that’s why so many businesses were forced to close. It’s a bit like looters smashing and grabbing what they can before the invading army enters the city.
Absolutely right.
I agree. Professor Mearsheimer and a few others have charted how the west seems deliberately to have provoked Russia. Putin seems really to believe that a nuclear armed Ukraine was about to appear on his doorstep. There was already a civil war going on in the country with countless civilian deaths that The Mirror and Toby did not wrote about. As we speak, British supplied kit is being used to kill civilians in Yemen. The US is negotiating hard to obtain more oil from the Saudis who are doing that. The moral indignation of the west is selective. The media narrative that has been created is exactly the same as with Iraq, Libya, Syria, Serbia, ……. Even the speculations of a mad man and chemical weapons of mass destruction are the same playbook. The population is being gamed. There are not many practical options: Carry on as is – with Ukraine being bled dry with some apparently hoped for regime change in Russia Escalate – potentially leading to WW3 Negotiate seriously – with international guarantees of Ukrainian neutrality and security plus some face saving language over Crimea and the Donbass The west is currently on path 1 and ascending to… Read more »
I think this gives too much credit to national leaders. I see then more as mediocre people who are in way over their heads.
Faced by the disintegration of the post WWII order they have no ideas or capabilities beyond desperately clinging on to their power.
Having abandoned fundamental western values of freedom and a system of law and due process, they are rudderless and are being taken advantage of by an oligarchical class with its own agenda.
And on their behalf they are acting like vandals, tearing down the system to produce some new grotesque order. Something that on the one hand serves the Davos crowd and their giant corporations and at the same time satisfies the delusional ambitions of socialist totalitarians that want to dictate to everyone what they must think and do.
In the middle you have a mass of people, battered, confused and increasingly frightened by what is coming down the road.
Stewart, you said, “Faced by the disintegration of the post WWII order they have no ideas or capabilities beyond desperately clinging on to their power.” I agree entirely.
And wasn’t that weak, follow-my-leader style of government employed in March 2020?
Gutless individuals, too frightened to make their own minds up.
As should have happened in March 2020, Johnson needs to form his own opinions and not follow others blindly into the quagmire. If he goes on supplying anything, let alone weapons, this will only prolong the agony of a country we should have had nothing to do with, right from the start, and will almost certainly make matters far worse.
Providing Ukraine with weapons will only mean many more dead Ukrainians. That’s what our leaders actually want and it’s all good to them if a few more Russians die.
Why should Johnson form his own opinions?
He belongs heart and soul to the Tory party.
He gets to play around as he likes and, as long as the party’s bio-chem and military-industrial partners continue to make them all richer, what’s to worry about.
The sheeple will still vote as told and, anyway, Whitehall counts the votes.
I actually agree. Depends a little on how we define “US government”.
Mearsheimer’s argument seems to be that a policy of confrontation with Russia is not in US national interests anyway. Nor can it be in ours. So politicians who really want to protect this country would be seeking to de-escalate: not preparing the ground for a long term war through sanctions, pumping arms into The Ukraine and propagandizing the population in conjunction with a CIA driven narrative.
My own instinct is that a combination of sectional interests linked to the Military Industrial Complex are driving this though and have convinced themselves that they are righteous. Expansion and “protection” from Russia also gives NATO an institutional incentive too; otherwise why should it even exist. In that sense this resembles March 2020 and also has overtones of 1914.
The non western world is largely seeing through our conceit though. They are also concerned that western regime change policies might be targeted at them. Which is probably true too. They are not standing with us. Sensibly I believe.
“Regime change” seems to cover everything from a “colour revolution” in which a large crowd is influenced to block the capital city’s government district for a few days, some shooting is orchestrated, a putsch is given the go-ahead, and “only” a few dozen people are killed, to an invasion in which the government district and much or all of the country’s territory are forcibly taken over by a foreign military force, hundreds of thousands are people are killed, and millions are forced to flee from their homes. That is a very wide spectrum. The former is impossible in Russia. There have been elections in which the Russian authorities have allowed the US and British embassies to do their damnedest to bring that kind of thing about, using “non-governmental organisations” and the National Endowment for Democracy and so on, without doing anything to stop them because these clever-clogs political advisers and operatives are just wasting their time and, if anything, they are giving the FSB some information about their order of battle, identities, and tradecraft that might be useful if their ops in other countries need to be scuppered. The problem with the latter is that Russia has formidable military strength… Read more »
I agree.
It is why option 3 above feels the only smart one.
The current Western “strategy” will end up becoming option 2.
That is not a good outcome.
My own idea is that the west suffers from a political Leukemia, 5eyes has gone rogue for their benefit, at our expense.
They no longer defend this nationa’s interests, but they don’t care as their funding isn’t needed from taxpayers anymore (that war on drugs and some dodgy corporations spun off their spytech looking at you Alphabet (agency) and Intel)….
It’s a guest post by Adrian Brown, not Toby – though it’s confusing because Toby’s name is at the end
The short version of your text is We must give Putin everything he wants because otherwise, he’ll nuke us all! But what Putin wants is not ours to give to him and the WW3 threat is nonsense. Nuclear devastation of the world is not a zero-sum game, ie, there will be no winners, only loosers. Hence, that’s not a feasible option.
Putin wants a neutral Ukraine and he will get it. What do you want?
Toby spends too much time rubbing shoulders with government. Dogs get to look and behave like their masters.
“an ideological, quasi-religious regime, crushing the individual freedoms of its people, aggressively censoring thought and opinion and abandoning due process”
“The unvaccinated must pre-purchase a PCR test from a Government approved provider.”
A pretty clumsy strawman. The point the author is trying to make is that past transgressions don’t justify new transgressions, or, somewhat figuratively spoken, that murdering a murderer is murder. That so-called international law has been broken in the past is unfortunate but can’t be remedied anymore. But we should keep trying to uphold it because that’s a worthy thing to do on its own.
Ukraine about to mount a devastating attack on the Donbass. Twenty six US bio-labs in Ukraine, some producing all sorts of nasties right on the Russian border, as Nuland effectively tells us. Zelensky seeking nuclear weapons. US totally agreement incapable. What on Earth took Russia so long to act?
You forgot the deathly pandemic that’s ravaging the world which can only be kept at bay by consuming loads of Chinese throwaway products.
Perhaps the Russians aren’t the madmen our oh-so-honest and truthful governments and media have told us they are?
I don’t think the article is talking about rights and wrongs in an academic, abstract sense. It refers specifically to western nations condemning Russian actions.
The hypocrisy there is just too extreme to ignore. Like a child molester condemning a rapist. He’s not wrong. But most people would agree he’s better off keeping his mouth shut and focusing on his own conduct before he starts criticising others.
If you ask me who I fear more right now, Putin or our own leaders, I tell you it is our own leaders without hesitation.
And how!
Agreed. If a Bone Fide State, or its over-powerful leader leader, is set upon violating another no amount if UN resolutions is going to deter them. There have been vanishingly few cases of UN defined/prosecuted War Crimes come to fruition at the International Court (or somesuch) with even fewer reaching sentencing; if only because the accused ‘die in Dutch Custody’, it takes so long. The UN and its multitude of judicial agencies is famed for being headed by the most inappropriate CEOs as, coincidentally, Russia in this instance. Monty Python would have baulked at the current situation. The only reason aggressive nations, the media and others like to compare wicked international violations against Britains record, less than perfect but better than most, is that WE put ourselves on such a high bloody pedastle in the first place. If we didn’t bother neither would they. As for the faux outrage over a bombed maternity hospital, most ‘Westerners’ (do we still say that?) didn’t know what Ukraine was until a few months ago. In my 1960s childhood WW2 Documentaries still referred to its proper designation 》The《 Ukraine; ie an area on the map defined by its natural geography, not A Country. Ukraine… Read more »
The “author of this article” is our very own Toby Young, founder and owner of this highly valued website.
Actually it isn’t. It’s an Adrian Brown .
Okay dokey, but Toby is his frontman.
Toby published it.
It doesn’t mean Toby agrees with it.
The West has clearly shown its position from the outset when it said it wanted dialogue with Russia and then continued with a monologue about how it would concede nothing to them, would arm Ukraine and would additionally punish them financially.
For The West read facctions within the USA military, espionage, industrial, financial communities.
Well the vast majority of “sceptic” seem to think the Russian invasion of Ukraine is just fine.
This is just mindless opposition to any “mainstream” information with accompanying acceptance of the opposition position put forward by most on this site.
I would suggest that many would preferred that HR Clinton and the Eu had not initiated regime-change in 2014, and that an independent Ukraine had continued to live in peace.
“At the time, however, public opinion favoured the war (Iraq)”
And over the past 2 years we’ve seen how easily public opinion can be warped by a relentless propaganda campaign and official lies …. from a Government which has a particular agenda and a supine MSM.
What is more significant than polls which had been warped by propaganda is that an estimated million people (probably more) travelled to London to march against the war.
As far as I’m concerned, Bush and Blair’s illegal war in Iraq is entirely equivalent to Putin’s war against Ukraine. If Putin should be hauled in front of a War Crimes Trial, so should they.
The biolabs news is very interesting. No news here on it from Mr. Young though. Too scared to be sceptical about that one perhaps?
US has really messed up the PR on that one. It looks very much like US WMD in the Ukraine is real. What better reason to invade.
Nobody is insisting the world disqualifies itself.
But the west disqualifies itself by its hypocrisy, by vax passes, by the actions of Trudeau against truckers, by confiscating the money of donors, by freezing the assets of people without legal due process, by censoring YouTube and social media..etc. etc.. etc..
While those are valid, the bigger reason is the aggressive international policy pursued by the US and its chums (including the UK) over the past few decades – Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, etc.
And the way in which they appear to have intentionally provoked Putin. Only a fool would keep prodding a bear with a stick, then be surprised when the bear eventually retaliates. And these people aren’t fools, so their claims to be surprised are not believable.
Depends who is claiming it.
If it’s the people formulating policy at the very top, I agree their surprise is not believable. My personal opinion is that they have deliberately provoked him.
But except for those at the very top, my impression of the majority of the people in the establishment is that they are the personification of mediocrity and know little more than to detect and parrot the prevailing opinion.
If the official wisdom within the establishment was that Putin would never dare attack Ukraine, then I suspect the majority just nodded like lemmings and agreed.
Why would we believe anything we see on TV as reliable evidence after the last two years. What about the biolabs and the Nazi militias? When is Daily Sceptic going to cover those?
And btw how many people did you really see being removed on stretchers after the alleged hospital incident?
Daily Sceptic needs to catch up
https://www.sott.net/article/465282-Victoria-Nuland-Admits-Ukraine-Has-Biological-Research-Facilities-Worried-Russia-May-Seize-Them
https://www.sott.net/article/465289-Malone-on-US-BIO-Weapon-Research-Are-We-the-Good-Guys-or-the-Bad-Guys-Here
https://www.foxnews.com/shows/tucker-carlson-tonight
https://www.foxnews.com/shows/tucker-carlson-tonight
Yes, the DS editorial pieces on Ukraine keep sounding as if they were written years/decades ago, in the 1980s maybe.
PS. Sorry, correction, it’s not an editorial piece, it’s a guest post by someone called Adrian Brown.
Or by the BBC!
The hospital report has been well and truly debunked. It’s a supermodel making money…so I am told.
Agreed on the conspicuous absence of coverage. Mr. Young would do well to let readers know his position. But he didn’t fare well on his initial view of the conflict. And it’s beginning to look suspicious.
From a lifetime’s experience of being lied to by government and media, I’d say that Daily Mirror photo was probably shot on a building site anywhere in Britain, most likely Belfast.
1. Russia as a sovereign state has a legitimate interest in NOT having hostile military forces, weaponry and establishments in a neighbouring country
2. The west promised that NATO would go ‘not an inch’ further east
3. Ukraine is almost two countries (maybe more) in any case – east / west
4. Those in eastern Ukraine have been oppressed / marginalised / terrorised (10k + killed since 2014) over recent years
5. Those responsible for this are Nazis given a pass or those who look the other way
6. Therefore a Russian action to de-nazify and de-militarize the east is understandable
7. Generic sceptic: I don’t trust a single word that western Establishment says about such things – govt, msm, commentariat etc
8. Generic sceptic: What other motives might be at play in the focus on this and in the associated censorship and inability to see that there are two sides to things.
That – at this early stage – is my layperson’s sceptic position
The mainstream media using obvious propaganda pictures on the front page doesn’t bode well.
Unless the one sided media hysteria is toned down and we rediscover the meaning of the word “detente”, then we are staring down the barrel of nuclear war.
Some of these media types need strapping to a chair and forced to watch Threads on repeat until they get it.
In particular the title.
Jail!
It is interesting that with all the journalists on the ground in Ukraine, the picture on the front page of the Mirror is identical to one in the Telegraph. Spooky that both photographers were standing next to each other as the lady was carried across in front of them.
Agency photo. Nothing new.
My very short answer to the article’s headlined question is no, and that it ( the US-NATO-UK-EU etc alliance ) been completely and utterly legless for 70 years when it comes to “complaining” about any other country/region’s military/undercover interventions in other countries.
The West keep on saying ‘it wasnt me’, but it keeps happening
I’ve not posted on Russia before, because my understanding of the issues is so poor and remains poor. However I did read Anna Politkovskaya‘s book Putin’s Russia many years ago. Anna was an extraordinarily courageous Russian freedom fighter and journalist, critical of Putin and opposed to the Chechen wars, who was murdered in Moscow on Putin’s birthday in 2006. It’s a very engaging book because she talks about everyday life in Russia. In the book she talks about the FSB (the Russian security service) stifling freedoms and attempting to harden the dictatorship. Anna said [It] is we who are responsible for Putin’s policies … society has shown limitless apathy … as the Chekists have become entrenched in power, we have let them see our fear, and thereby have only intensified their urge to treat us like cattle. The KGB respects only the strong. The weak it devours. We of all people ought to know that. She also says We are hurtling back into a Soviet abyss, into an information vacuum that spells death from our own ignorance. All we have left is the internet, where information is still freely available. For the rest, if you want to go on working… Read more »
Even from that statement, I would say your understanding is better than 99% of the public.
“. . .clear evidence that women and children are being targeted again.”
Come on Toby, you can do better than that. Granted they are being killed but as collateral damage rather than as targets.
Yes, I agree. For example: the bombed hospital films show the bomb crater well away from the hospital with the blast damage to the building seeming to be only blown out windows.
The author claims that “The moral outrage that Russia’s invasion has provoked has been a galvanising and unifying force among the nations of the world. It is the near universality of the response that provides it’s practical and moral force.”
But this statement is untrue.
At the UN vote on sanctions against Russia many countries voted against them or abstained. Many of the countries of the world are not imposing sanctions on Russia. There is general condemnation of the military intervention but not a world wide condemnation of Russia.
Many countries believe that Russia’s actions are justified, and glad/grateful to see someone finally standing up to/against the NATO bloc.
Following the US State Departments admission that the US Military has a number of biolabs in Ukraine developing anthrax and plague pathogens, documents have now surfaced showing how the US was planning to use wild bird migratory patterns to deliver these, and other deadly pathogens, into the Russian hinterland.
It looks like the Russian intervention came in the nick of time.
Would the Daily Sceptic’s resident Neocon Toby Young care to comment on this turn of events?
It was also on the eve of a fully planned military incursion into the Donbass by the Ukrainian army and neo-nazi militia, documentary proof of which has apparently been found by Russian military ( confirmed publicly by Russian commander ) moving through U army bases. The operation was planned for late February.
That would validate the view that the coronavirus crisis has served as a dry run to create systems that prepare nations for biological warfare.
It’s fairly clear to anyone without a dog in the fight that Putin has more military and moral justification for going into Ukraine than we did going into Iraq.
Thats not to say he has any justification- just that he has more than we did.
^^^^^^^^^^ exactly
I think he’s entirely justified. He’s committed to protect the Russian people and its borders.
I don’t like it but that’s my emotional response.
Mankind is a territorial, tribal beast. Confrontation is in our nature. You are entitled to protect your house and garden with all reasonable force. If someones climbing over your wall you are entitled to repel him.
I suspect the Russian population also feel he’s justified in protecting them, as my family feel entirely secure that, if necessary, I will resort to violence to protect them.
“Firstly, it assumes a moral equivalence between the Russian invasion of Ukraine and, for example, the Gulf wars or the United States’ alleged actions in Ukraine. I’m not sure this bears much analysis, but neither time nor space permit a detailed examination here.”
In this one sentence Toby Young reveals his true nature – and it is not very pleasant. This great civil liberty warrior and beacon of truth deliberately dismisses well-documented US Neocon gangsterism in Ukraine.
Transcripts of Victoria Nulands telephone calls regarding her control over the 2014 coup are in the public domain. Biden bragging at the CFA about his using US taxdollars to blackmail Ukraine officials to prevent them investigating his sons corrupt activies in Ukraine are in the public domain. The US State Department admitting they were developing anthrax and plague delivery systems on the Ukraine/Russian border are in the public domain. Instances of US Neocons repeatedly saying they want to foment war with Russia are in the public domain.
Lastly, any attempt to draw a moral equivalence between the Gulf wars and the Russian actions in Ukraine is flawed because there is none.
The Russian intervention in Ukraine is entirely justified.
It’s not written by Toby.
Well why the hell has he put, “by Toby Young” after the article? For this reason alone, he deserves to be credited with it. In any event, the points I make still stand.
“We’re publishing a guest post by Adrian Brown, a former Royal Australian Air Force Legal Officer, about whether it’s reasonable to expect Russia to be constrained by moral norms, particularly in light of the failure of Britain and the United States to always observe those norms themselves when the national interest is at stake.”
“By Toby Young”…….because he published it.
It’s the first paragraph, you can’t miss it.
Why do you think Mr. Young is silent on it?
“Russia is in clear breach of Article 2(4) of the UN Charter.”
No it is not.
Donetsk and Luhansk seceded from Ukraine legitimately, and the Ukrainian government has directly involved itself (for example using its Azov battalion) in war against them.
Russia went to the defence of Donetsk and Luhansk.
“Russia’s indifference to international law is best illustrated by its appeal to Article 51 of the UN Charter which deals with the right to self-defence. Token at best, mockery at worst.”
That’s not “token”. That’s the only “out” in respect of Article 2(4).
“Firstly, it assumes a moral equivalence between the Russian invasion of Ukraine and, for example, the Gulf wars or the United States’ alleged actions in Ukraine. I’m not sure this bears much analysis, but neither time nor space permit a detailed examination here.”
Write anything more comical and Ihor Kolomoisky will offer you a job!
If you’re trying to argue against a proposition, spot one of its assumptions, but don’t wish to consider the validity of that assumption, your argument may well be up the spout.
As for its other plank: “Secondly, no matter how squeamish you are about these things, you can still proceed on the basis that the wrongs of the past can be acknowledged while the wrongs of the present are challenged. To suggest otherwise strains credibility.”
Sure, two wrongs don’t make a right, in other words. But the West has no credibility. Supporters of the West such as yourself don’t get to judge anyone.
I never thought Toby would resort to click-bait style articles.
Your second quote from that article drew my attention for the same reasons you stated. But I’d go further, is Russia wrong in what they are doing?
Putin has, like any country’s leader, the responsibility to defend its borders. How is that to be accomplished when NATO, the EU and the UN utterly refuse to compromise over a reasonable request that those organisations and their weapons be kept out of Ukraine.
Putin has warned the international community that he is resolved to maintaining Ukraine as a buffer country which he’s insistent should be maintained as a sovereign state. He offers protection to the Russian speaking regions of Ukraine so their cultural and languages preferences are supported, but he doesn’t want to take them over or subsume them into Russia.
And whilst not quite the same, doesn’t the UK do much the same with the Falklands, Gibraltar, Northern Ireland and, formerly, Hong Kong? Does China not do the same with N. Korea which, by any standards, is a buffer country between China and westernised S, Korea with its enormous support from the USA.
Sounds like The Times – i’d suggest ‘The West (US and UK) governance is incorporated into deep state and care zero for us minions and even less so for the brown skinned people of countries they’ve systematically destroyed and continue to destroy directly and indirectly. Highly centralised govts are disconnected to reality and dysfunctional in the extreme.
More from Robert Malone on the Ukraine biolabs. (I did a lot of research on virology in 2010 during the XMRV story so this is old news to me, but seems to be a shock for some people. The widespread funding of biological warfare among all governments is the scandal of our times.) https://rwmalonemd.substack.com/p/ukraine-biolab-watchtower?s=r I have worked in biodefense and medical countermeasure development for decades now. This includes close cooperation through multiple infectious disease outbreaks with scientists at USAMRIID and the Defense Threat Reduction Agency (DTRA). The US Government (DoD Defense Threat Reduction Agency) has funded “biolabs” in Ukraine. The official Russian News Agency TASS has reported the following in an article titled “Ukraine worked on development of biological weapons near Russian borders – statement”: During the special operation in Ukraine, Russia obtained documents proving that Ukrainian biological laboratories located near Russian borders worked on development of components of biological weapons“We confirm the facts, discovered during the special military operation in Ukraine, of the emergency cleanup by the Kiev regime of traces of the military biological program, carried out by Kiev with funding from the US Department of Defense,” the statement reads. “Documents were obtained from employees of Ukrainian biological laboratories about… Read more »
With a high degree of probability, we can say that one of the tasks of the United States and its allies is the creation of bioagents capable of selectively affecting various ethnic groups of the population.
In my opinion, the partnership relationship between DoD/DTRA (as historically structured) and the current government of Ukraine (which has functionally become a client state of the USA) was ill advised. At a minimum- this relationship has provided some semblance of political cover for military actions which the government of Russia believes are in its strategic interests, and which are of such importance that the Russian government was willing to take significant geopolitical and financial risk.
https://rwmalonemd.substack.com/p/ukraine-biolab-watchtower?s=r
For reference here’s Wayback capture of the 2005 US-Ukraine bio-weapons agreement.
https://web.archive.org/web/20191126135515/https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/05-829-Ukraine-Weapons.pdf
Existing facilities and pathogen inventories by country
https://web.archive.org/web/20220310093130/https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK196149/
Here’s a few more related to bio-weapons vanishing from NATOs collective memory.
https://web.archive.org/web/20110522081423/http://www.bioprepwatch.com/news/213421-biolab-opens-in-ukraine
https://silview.media/2021/06/03/us-ran-grewsome-bioweapon-research-in-over-25-countries-wuhan-tip-of-an-iceberg-ecohealth-alliance-implicated-again/
The BioWeapons Prevention Project (BWPP) is a global network of civil society actors dedicated to the permanent elimination of biological weapons and of the possibility of their re-emergence. It was launched in 2003 by a group of non-governmental organizations concerned at the failure of governments to fortify the norm against the weaponization of disease. BWPP monitors governmental and other activities relevant to the treaties that codify that norm.
https://web.archive.org/web/20220121043022/http://www.bwpp.org/network.html
5Reply
“The Project for a New American Century and the Age of Bioweapons: 20 Years of Psychological Terror”:
The Age of Bioweapons and PNAC
“This anthrax attack led quickly into the 2004 Bioshield Act with a $5 billion budget and mandate to “pre-empt and defend further bioweapon attacks”. This new chapter of the revolution in military affairs was to be coordinated from leading bioweapons facility at the Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases at Fort Detrick. Since 2002, over $50 billion has been spent on Bioweapons research and defense to date.
The earlier October 2000 RAD document emphasized the importance which the neocon cabal placed on bioweapons (and other next generation war tech) stating: “Combat will likely take place in new dimensions: In space, cyber-space and perhaps the world of microbes… advanced forms of biological warfare that can “target” specific genotypes may transform biological warfare from the realm of terror to a politically useful tool”.
https://canadianpatriot.org/2020/04/11/the-project-for-a-new-american-century-and-the-age-of-bioweapons-20-years-of-psychological-terror/
Whitney Webb has done amazing work on this stuff too, including her “Engineering Contagion” series
Russian Ministry of Defense Briefing.
https://twitter.com/QuantumMed3/status/1501642475320098823
On the territory of Ukraine there were 30 biological weapons laboratories, divided into two areas: “scientific research” and “sanitary-biological”.
The funding agency is the US Ministry of Defense (DTRA)
US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo:
I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole. We had entire training courses
https://youtu.be/6RmEsPE7iq0
“We lied, we cheated, we stole.”
Mostly from the West! The Alphabet agencies are the state in a state.
Thanks again, Kate. Malone is, as always, worth reading – in this case, if only for this quote:
What a mess. Are there any grownups in the house? This is what happens in a world in which no one trusts anyone anymore, integrity is treated as an obsolete concept, both information and legacy media have become weaponized to such an extent that what passes for official reality becomes just a funhouse hall of mirrors, and the experience, intellect and maturity of those entrusted to manage these matters is just not up to the task.
There is no “clear” evidence, all of the reports from Ukraine should be subject to scrutiny because they will inevitably be slanted.
Numerous photographs have been shown to be recycled from, in some cases, years ago and different wars.
We only ever hear of Russian casualties from Ukraine and we are often shown burnt-out wrecks whose users cannot be identified because most Ukrainian armour is sourced from Russia.
Destroyed building reappear in different roles. A particular one for me is the maternity hospital in Mariupol. Goggle maps only shows one hospital there, to the North of the city. It is a four-storey building set in fairly large, oen grounds and is L-shaped. The building purporting to be the hospital in the photos and videos I have seen is a three-story building with multiple wings, and considering the number of casualties there appear to be remarkably few health workers tending to the massive number of injuries claimed.
It is undoubtedly powerful propagnda, but I would welcome proof that I am wrong.
I like this site – at the start of the Covid scare I genuinely thought I was the only person who knew it was, at best, hysteria and found myself feeling very alone. Lockdown Sceptic, as was, was a beacon of light and hope.
I still enjoy it, but I’m pretty sure I’m not the only one getting itchy about the recent propaganda creep happening on here. It’s not even very good propaganda – although to be fair it seems it doesn’t have to be very good these days.
Toby – get a grip man. You’re letting yourself down.
Same happened to Private Eye when climategate was exposed. They refused to see the scandal. Scepticism doesn’t mean being “sceptical” of things you don’t like, it means thinking through everything in a properly sceptical/inquiring way, whether you agree with it or not. It means taking everything with a pinch of salt until you have looked at the other side and looked at the strength of evidence.
Indeed. I’m increasingly finding people who have always positioned themselves as “sceptics” turned to only be sceptical of things they don’t like. My mother – for example- has spent her whole life priding herself on being a sceptic of “The Man” and government narrative, now suddenly loves BLM and Covid jabs.
I see the same misuse of the word “tolerance” – which seems to now mean “accepting thing I already accepted” rather than its actual meaning of “accepting things I don’t personally like or agree with”
It was called Lockdown Sceptics, which was very apt and honest,as that seems to be the only thing that applied, the jabs etc are acceptable.
Yes, I used to love this site because it seemed to be an almost uniquely sceptical site ref lockdowns, masks, etc …. run by and for like-minds, *real* sceptics!
I used to look at it first thing in the morning and at least another couple of times later in the day, because not only did it hearten/encourage me but it was *useful*.
It used to post articles full of enlightening data and analysis, which helped me cope with the wall to wall propaganda and group-think etc. It educated and supported.
Now it is not very useful or helpful, in fact it is as you say beginning to feel like propaganda itself, a fog of misinformation, almost a place/site to avoid. 🙁
Not in fact a site run by and for sceptics but simply a site that is anti-lockdown, sceptical about the manmade-climate change narrative and irritated by woke excesses.
It should change its name again ….. ….. or start posting articles which help to dispel the hysteria and debunk the fake news.
There are sceptics on both sides of any debate.
Just because we are sceptics does not mean we are right.
No, but it does mean that we shouldn’t post/say things that are untrue or misleading or of dubious/unverified nature. eg a sceptic shouldn’t post mainstream media propaganda headlines or images etc as if they were real.
Or refer to those things as if they were true, without checking.
Yes, the article above suggests US involvement in Ukraine is a conspiracy theory, which is a clear and obvious untruth.
The above article is illustrated with a faked photo showing Instagram influencer Marianna Podgurskaya working as a “crisis actor”.
Fixed that for you:
Ah, the sainted Azov batallion. In UK they would have been called ultra-right thugs.
…and proscribed.
But more correctly, ultra left thugs, as the third Reich was a socialist organisation.
Not sure then how you would define German communists. The NSDAP, for all that the term “Socialist” was in its title, was bitterly opposed to the KPD: attacking its members and supporters in street fights before coming to power, and then imprisoning them in the first concentration camps.
The NSDAP, despite its name, received great financial support from certain capitalists – fearful of the likely expropriation of their wealth at the hands of the communists – who most people would regard as “ultra left”.
Those capitalists (including Fritz Thyssen) had been assured that NSDAP socialism was purely rhetorical (though it wasn’t for all party members). Their support was not misplaced – their profits soared.
“Why are we Socialists?”
From ‘Those Damned Nazi’s.’
https://research.calvin.edu/german-propaganda-archive/haken32.htm
That’s my point -it was a propaganda exercise (genuinely believed in by a considerable number of supporters) at a time when capitalism was in bad international odour.
In the event, the capitalists who bore the brunt were almost exclusively Jewish – quite deliberately and obviously, even in the earlier stages.
Thank you!
You might like to compare the above building with Mariupol’s Maternity Hospital from Goggle maps. The bombing would appear to have removed the ground floor as there are only 3 storeys above
It also appears to have altered the construction of the building. In the newspaper the windows are set very close together.
In the above photographs the windows are set several feet apart.
I think she is the same one being helped down the stairs inside but wearing different jimjams.
Her clothes as she walked down the stairs are cleaner than the clothes she is wearing on the stretcher!
According to RT.com
The Azov Battalion used to be paramilitary but it is now very much “military” – it is officially part of the Ukrainian government’s armed forces.
Incidentally the Azov Battalion has been funded by Ihor Kolomoisky, the Israeli-Ukrainian-Portuguese billionaire who funded both Volodymyr Zelensky’s TV comedy series “Servant of the People” (in which he plays an “ordinary man” who finds himself elected president) and the political “movement” of the same name that carried Zelensky to the country’s actual presidency while the series was being shown.
As I have already said, the Azov Battalion must also act like a magnet for a certain type of British army reservist and indeed those regulars too who have “gone AWOL to go and fight for the Ukraine”.
Recall that the Azov Battalion has been fighting against the regimes in Luhansk and Donetsk for eight years in a war during which there have been many thousands of fatalities.
Sorry, Mike and Star – you’ve got yourselves all confused. That’s what comes of doing too much thinking, and not enough watching the BBC and reading The Guardian.
Canadian truckers are right-wing extremists, and the members of the Azov Battalion are freedom fighters.
Now settle down.
Ihor Kolomoisky, New York Times, November 2019 :
“If I put on glasses and look at myself like the whole rest of the world, I see myself as a monster, as a puppet master, as the master of Zelensky, someone making apocalyptic plans. I can start making this real.”
https://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2022/03/01/jewish-subtexts-in-ukraine/
MG
It has always been thus; when the Cuban missile crisis ended, the then MSM banged on about how the Soviet Union withdrew their missiles from Cuba, they (the MSM) omitted to report that the USA agreed to remove their missiles from Turkey which were targeting the USSR.
Not telling lies but not telling all the truth.
While we are on questions of propaganda, here is the latest
I don’t believe any of this propaganda – from the ghost of kviv, to snake island, to the Ukrainians are winning, to the Russian soldiers are raping everyone in sight, to Putin is Hitler 2.0 and wants to take over the world, or the Russians shot a nuclear reactor.
It’s the same insane playbook we saw during the covid debacle and it’s getting tiring.
I couldn’t agree more. After the last two years I no longer believe anything coming from Western MSM. My default position is that our media will be lying.
Not just our media, our government has been doing it for generations.
And Wallace is the cheerleader.
I woke up yesterday to the BBC website and others screaming that a Children’s hospital attack in Ukraine is a War Crime. With a photo of a pregnant woman on a stretcher which, as a photographer, I can say looks completely staged ( I could of course be wrong) No investigative journalism just reports of what the Ukrainian side alledges. However, according to the Russians (not reported by the BBC) On March 7 Russian diplomats confirmed at the UN Security Council itself that this particular maternity hospital was turned into an operations base and firing point by Azov batallion Neo-Nazis. On March 8, the son of a woman who had worked at the hospital told lenta.ru that “in the last days of February, men in uniforms entered the maternity hospital where his mother worked. They told everyone to get out and established firing points in the building.” Presumanly it would be fairly simple for the BBC and other reporters to check the timeline with the UN Security Council? Since then credible reports with links to the pregnant woman’s social media accounts show her to be a local ‘model’ and beauty blogger. If anyone is instantly believing what they are told… Read more »
Exactly.
“Freedom and self-determination, the rights and dignity of the individual, limits on the use of coercion and state sponsored violence are being contested. “ Contested in the West, most definitely. Ask the Canadian Truckers. Ask Donald Trump who was spied on and set up by the forces of the State. Ask people who have lost their jobs because they didn’t want to take an experimental vaccine, or took it under duress to keep their job. Ask the people who have lost their jobs because of views their have espoused that don’t meet the current required ‘standard’. Ask the people cancelled because of their views. Ask the people jailed for making an ‘off’ joke’. Ask the people fined for having parties during lockdown while our rulers did exactly the same thing and will undoubtedly get off scot free. Ask the American voters who were the victims of electoral fraud on a scale that would shame a banana republic. Ask the people who were beaten with batons at lockdown protests by the very same police who months earlier had knelt in front of BLM protestors. Where exactly are our rights to freedom, self determination and free speech in the West? We have none.… Read more »
https://jermwarfare.com/blog/richard-sakwa
Richard Sakwa is Professor Of Russian And European Politics at the University of Kent.
He has written books about Russian and eastern European communist and post-communist politics. Richard was a participant of Valdai Discussion Club, as well as an Associate Fellow of the Russia And Eurasia Programme at the Royal Institute Of International Affairs. He is also a member of the advisory boards of the Institute Of Law And Public Policy in Moscow.
Richard’s conversation with me covers a lot of ground, including