Smokers Are Not a Burden

There follows a guest post by John Staddon, Professor of Psychology, and Professor of Biology and Neurobiology, Emeritus at Duke University, which is an extract from Chapter 4 of his book Unlucky Strike: Private Health and the Science, Law and Politics of Smoking.

I have discussed the morality of smoking, its supposed lethality, its addictiveness and its effects on nonsmokers. The evidence shows that if smoking is a sin it is a pretty venial one; nor is smoking as lethal as its critics charge and many smokers imagine. The health effects of passive smoke are almost impossible to measure. The best attempts have failed to find significant effects. 

This chapter deals with the most serious policy-related charge against smoking: that it costs non-smokers money – smoking has a Public Cost.  Smoking-related disease is “a profound burden on our national health care system”, wrote Judge Kessler. As we’ve seen, the National Socialists agreed (all those lost Volkswagens). “Smoking imposes a huge economic burden on society – currently up to 15% of total healthcare costs in developed countries,” says an article in the BMJ in 2004.  The case seems unarguable. A substantial fraction of smokers die of smoking-related illnesses. Treating illness, especially if the treatment is protracted and often ineffective, as it is with COPD and many cancers, is always expensive. 

But “obvious” is not always “correct.” The smoking-costs-us folk seem to forget (brace yourself!) that we all die, even non-smokers. As the bumper sticker reminds us: “Eat right, exercise – die anyway.” The facts about the health-care cost of smoking are in fact the opposite of the common preconception. For the 24-50 age range, smokers cost a bit more, thereafter they cost quite a bit less because smokers die a bit earlier than non-smokers. Overall “smoking actually saved the Medicare program money, $2,800 per male smoker aged 24 and $600 per female”, concluded Sloan and colleagues from a database up to 2002. Data gathered since, which I discuss at more length in a moment, confirm this conclusion: smokers save society on health-care costs. Silberberg, using a different set of data, concludes similarly in the Appendix.

What matters for the cost argument is the manner of our dying: when do we die? And how long and costly is the process? The cost-saving early death of smokers was pointed out by the defense – Philip Morris Co. – in a 1998 Minnesota case. Cleverly disparaged by the plaintiffs as the “death-credit” argument, relevant evidence was specifically excluded by the judge in the case, letting the plaintiffs’ uncontested claim stand. I return to the legal issues in later chapters. 

The costs of health care for the elderly in the last years of life are always much the highest. One study, for example, found that: “From 1992 to 1996, mean annual medical expenditures (1996 dollars) for persons aged 65 and older were $37,581 during the last year of life versus $7,365 for non-terminal years.” Hence, dying of an acute – brief – condition is usually less costly than hanging on with some disabling but eventually terminal ailment. As we saw with the two forms of malaria in Colombia, the more lethal, but rapidly fatal, form was less costly to the country than the less lethal, chronic form.

So it is with smoking. In the year 2000, Philip Morris, recognising that it might not be considered the most credible investigator, asked the Arthur D. Little company to do a study for the Czech Republic on the cost to the state of smoking. The conclusion: smoking, because of early mortality and tax revenue, represents a net benefit amounting to about $1,227 per smoker. 

Anti-smoking activists expressed horror at this finding.  One commented: “Even if it were true that smokers dying young would save money for the economy, it’s a real scary logic on which to base policy.”  Well, yes – unless attacks on smokers are justified by faulty economics, to which accurate economics is the only adequate response.  And yes, if the Government were to use economic arguments to facilitate, mandate or otherwise encourage smoking. Logic played no part in this debate. The reaction to the Czech study was so violent, that Philip Morris felt it had to issue a grovelling apology the next year. But no one found anything wrong with the science. 

A 2008 study to which anti-smokers have not yet expressed horror – perhaps because it doesn’t have “smoking” in the title – is by a group of Dutch investigators. This seems to be the best available study on the actual costs of smoking to society. The investigators’ aim was to see “whether this risk factor [obesity or smoking] primarily causes relatively cheap lethal diseases or rather expensive chronic ones”.  The study compared obese people, smokers and what they term a “healthy-living” cohort. They conclude: “The high medical costs of smoking-related diseases are more than offset by lower survival of smokers.” They used Dutch medical costs for their estimate, but since per-capita U.S. medical costs almost twice Dutch costs, their results are likely to apply even more strongly to the U.S.  

Their conclusion is that although smokers have a shorter life expectancy than the other two groups (77.4 years vs. 79.9 for the obese and 84.4 for the healthy-livers, all at age 20), their lifetime health-care costs are in fact lower. In summary (emphases added):

In this study we have shown that, although obese people induce high medical costs during their lives, their lifetime health-care costs are lower than those of healthy-living people but higher than those of smokers…. The underlying mechanism is that there is a substitution of inexpensive, lethal diseases toward less lethal, and therefore more costly, diseases.

Dying young is always a cost to society. A family may be left bereft. Years of potentially productive life are lost (economists call this opportunity cost). Traffic deaths, gun deaths, deaths from hazardous activities such as rock-climbing and motorcycling and deaths from infectious disease in the prime of life, are especially costly to society at large. But the fact is – discouraging for smokers but not necessarily for other people – smokers who die of smoking-related ailments die (from a cost point of view) at just about the right time, right after retirement age. The opportunity cost for society is minimal or even negative because age of death is around the time the smoker would have ceased productive work anyway and after his or her children are independent. (And their children’s inheritance will probably be larger than non-smokers’, because they have not had as much of a chance to spend it down!)

Smokers may, as some critics argue, be less efficient than non-smokers while on the job – going outside for a drag rather than working, for example. But some of these costs are imposed by no-smoking rules, and they are counterbalanced by claims of many writers, artists and other brain workers that smoking helps them think. So any on-the-job effect of smoking is probably outweighed by the hard fact that smokers seem to spend a larger fraction of their lives working – contributing to society – than non-smokers. 

Okay, but why, if smokers incur lower lifetime medical costs, do health insurers require a higher premium from them? Good question, to which there are two answers, one relating to the actual costs borne by insurers, the other to ‘what the market will bear’. First, the actual cost: Lifetime health cost, if we are to believe the [Dutch] study, is lower for smokers than non-smokers. But smokers also get sick sooner and die a bit earlier (on average) than non-smokers. In other words, more of smokers’ health-care cost is likely to be incurred before 65, the age at which they become eligible in the U.S. for Government aid through Medicare. But this is the bit that falls most heavily on a private health insurer. In other words, for the private insurer – but not for society at large or for the Government via Medicare – smokers cost more than non-smokers.  For society and for the Government, smokers cost less.

The market answer is simple.  Smokers have been so successfully stigmatised, and falsehoods about their health-care costs are so widely accepted, that the insurance industry can extract additional premiums from them with little pushback. Smokers, in this area as in so many others, are passive victims.  

In fact, insurers, like other businesses, are probably always guided more by a ‘what the market will bear’ strategy when it will get them more return than simple cost-plus.  Apple, in its fashionable heyday, for example, was able to extract profit margins of 40% or more. As evidence for similar thinking by insurers, consider a case where early demise should save smokers money: lifetime retirement annuities. Early death represents a benefit to issuers of lifetime annuities, so if economics – insurers’ cost – ruled, smokers should be offered lower premiums for lifetime annuities. Have you seen any such offers? Up to 2013 I had not, but since then, something called an Enhanced Annuity is now offered by some insurers: it pays a higher rate to people who can prove they are ill, or – via urine test – a heavy smoker. Not cost, but what the market will bear, sets these rates.

Before I leave the topic of cost, let me leave you with this thought from a recent book on the ‘greying’ of the developed world: “An aging world is an increasingly dependent world. It will demand that a growing proportion of the population devote their lives to the growing share of the people who need care.” Do you think that smokers exacerbate or mitigate this looming problem?

John Staddon is James B. Duke Professor of Psychology, and Professor of Biology and Neurobiology, Emeritus at Duke University.

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John Dee
4 years ago

I’d have thought that, given the relative numbers involved, the obese are much more of a public burden than are smokers.
(Declaration in the interests of transparency: I did smoke for a few years, several decades ago. In addition, I have often been somewhat overweight, but never obese.)

Rogerborg
4 years ago
Reply to  John Dee

That’s covered in the article chap: perhaps you might consider reading it in full.

John Dee
4 years ago
Reply to  Rogerborg

It didn’t make the point that the number of obese has risen greatly, while smokers have declined in number.

meanonsunday
meanonsunday
4 years ago
Reply to  John Dee

More obese just means that they save us more in total. Of course the “overweight” are healthier and live longer than the “ healthy”, so maybe that’s who we should tax more?

karenovirus
4 years ago
Reply to  Rogerborg

Not worth reading at all IMHO. I’ve been reading and heard all the arguments pro and con for fifty years and know them inside out, better than their proponents. My Health, my wealth, their health, balance of payments, slavery, racism 3rd world employment, life insurance, “Third Party Fire and Theft.” My employment, bans on The Tube*, On The Buse, ‘private’ taxis, any interior space that requires a paid cleaner, including bus stop shelters backed by tatty 15 year old stickers “Smoking is illegal in these premises” {itself illiterate} as though we didn’t know. Might as well pay the advertising poster companies and their Marketing hangers on to prattle about The Ten Commandments *First they confined smokers to the front carriage of tube trains only so that in the event of a crash we were ones who got brutally maimed or killed. They hoped to use infringements of the Smoking Ban to recruit a small army of paid informants (as though anticipating the need for such a body to inform on Lockdown breakers) but such was the level of public compliance they couldn’t. I remain an enthusiastic smoker since age 14 (now approaching pension). 20 a day minimum, sometimes approaching 60… Read more »

annicx
4 years ago
Reply to  karenovirus

Nice rant- my wife would agree wholeheartedly! As a non-smoker smoking and the banning of it has been an interesting debate I have had many times over the years. I used to work in bars and can say that modern air con systems in most pubs kept the atmosphere pretty decent, (apart from the horrid viruses that we were all breathing in of course!), and never accepted the argument for banning smoking in pubs. I maintained that if there was a genuine want or need for non smoking pubs they would exist already and that there was nothing stopping anyone opening such an establishment, also pointing out that no one is forced to enter a pub if they feel that there are too many smokers inside but of course this is 21st century Britain and we demand that others conform to our our ideals and remove all risk for us- heaven forfend we tolerate someone else’s right to choose. My wife has always smoked and the pressure on me to ‘make’ her stop is constant. I point out that she smoked when we met and I accepted this and have no right to make any such demand. Absolutely no one… Read more »

annicx
4 years ago
Reply to  annicx

Hmmm…a downvote for saying I don’t force my views on others.

John Dee
4 years ago
Reply to  annicx

Don’t worry; it’s just the hobbyist downvoter.

karenovirus
4 years ago
Reply to  annicx

The pub smoking ban was never about health (cf lockdown) but rather control freakery.

dearieme
dearieme
4 years ago
Reply to  John Dee

Being overweight extends lifespan. Being slightly obese is still better than being “normal”. It’s the morbidly obese who should worry and, above all, the underweight.

That is, if you put weight (!) on observational data. Which in this case are all we will ever have.

Nearhorburian
Nearhorburian
4 years ago
Reply to  dearieme

I was surprised to learn – from Dr Malcolm Kendrick – that those in the “underweight” category had the lowest life expectancy: not what we’re meant to believe.

barbarbarbaudelaire
barbarbarbaudelaire
4 years ago
Reply to  Nearhorburian

There can be conflating factors. Weight may not drive health. Health might drive weight. Cancer patients can slim without being healthy, for example.

The japanese are generally a slender people and they beat the US in life expectency. https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Japan/United-States/Health/Life-expectancy Of course there are other factors.

Do you have a link to Dr Kendrick’s statements?

Nearhorburian
Nearhorburian
4 years ago

“Do you have a link to Dr Kendrick’s statements?”

As I didn’t get them by googling, no.

I’m old fashioned: I read books – in this case, “Doctoring Data” – and have a memory

186NO
186NO
4 years ago

Go see his website…..?

meanonsunday
meanonsunday
4 years ago

You can base weight on any (adult) age and get the same results; they don’t depend on using the weight of sick people. Also you might want to check your dictionary and look up the meaning of conflate.

186NO
186NO
4 years ago
Reply to  Nearhorburian

Why are we “meant to believe”…anything, especially from the smoking lobby?

John Dee
4 years ago
Reply to  Nearhorburian

I suppose that would depend on what he defined as underweight. Since I shed some body fat, the charts tell me that I’m on the ‘lean’ side, rather than ‘ideal’ for my age. Since I’m faster at my sports, I’m prepared to take my chances.

Nessimmersion
4 years ago
Reply to  dearieme

The overweight also have both a higher probability of surviving surgery and of surviving an encounter with the health service.

It’s almost as if animals which lay down sufficient fat reserves to carry them through lean times survive longer overall but Nah! – couldn’t possibly be true.

Hopeless - "TN,BN"
4 years ago

I gave up smoking two decades ago, but with the present state of the world, I sometimes feel inclined to resume it. Unfortunately, the days of whipping over to Zeebrugge for a few dozen 50g pouches of Drum at about £1 each are long gone, and the cost is now outrageous.

Oddly enough, when I was smoking pipes and roll-ups for years, I rarely had a cold, and my weight was the same as when I was 18. Since stopping it, I’ve had coughs and colds, and the less said about weight gain (without any dietary changes) the better.

Smoking now attracts so much opprobrium, and, judging by the poor so and so’s huddled in cold shelters or other smoking ghettos, is impossible to enjoy much except on or in one’s own property, that I doubt it’s much of a pleasure any more.

Bella Donna
4 years ago

My brother now in his late 60s has smoked heavily all his life and yet I have never known him to be ill.

Nessimmersion
4 years ago
Reply to  Bella Donna

Matches up with smokers being at lower risk of catching the dreaded Coof:
Fancy that.

A new study (‘Association between smoking, e-cigarette use and severe Covid-19‘) published by Oxford University’s Nuffield Department of Primary Care Health Sciences has concluded that ‘Current smoking was associated with a reduced risk of severe Covid-19 but the association with e-cigarette use was unclear’

http://taking-liberties.squarespace.com/blog/2022/2/28/huge-study-finds-current-smoking-associated-with-reduced-ris.html

Researchers found that ‘Compared with never smokers, people currently smoking were at lower risk of Covid-19 hospitalization’. Former smokers however were at ‘higher risk of severe Covid-19’.”

Gefion
Gefion
4 years ago
Reply to  Bella Donna

My aunt smoked from age 18 until age 84 when she gave up for reasons unknown to me. She died aged 97 from old age. Maybe not a role model but interesting nonetheless.

Rogerborg
4 years ago

“Smoking is not as lethal as you think and also smoking is good for health services because it’s lethal.”

I can’t help but feel this is an addict speaking.

Look, I agree with the premise that risk should be a personal choice. But I’d argue it on that position, not on some sleight-of-bean-counting which is unlikely to be persuasive to either of the people who read it in full.

RW
RW
4 years ago
Reply to  Rogerborg

I can’t help but feel this is an addict speaking. That’s the precise reason why this addiction thing was made up: To disparage reasoned statements with somewhat clever personal attacks: See, you can’t trust those people, they’re addicted, ie, secretly controlled by uncontrollabe base desires. I’ve been smoking since I was 16 (I’m 49 now) and I can assure that nicotine additiction is entirely made-up as there are no withdrawal symptoms. None. Of course, assuming you’re in a situation where smoking isn’t possible for a long time, say, a long distance flight (or an hour long sequence of short-distance flights with no opportunity to get outside of an airport in between) you can drive yourself up the wall by constantly thinking about cigarettes. But you can as well not and do something else instead (I usually prefer reading). This contrasts with certain a lot more common recreational drugs (sort-of), namely, coffee: Someone who’s drinking a lot of coffee will very dearly regret finding himself without access to it for more than a few hours, due to developing a very nasty kind of headache (I used to have this problem but have meanwhile reduced my coffee consumption to levels where this… Read more »

loopDloop
loopDloop
4 years ago
Reply to  RW

Right, so you’re not addicted to your filthy cigarettes, oh no, that would be a terrible thing to say, but all those people, doing everything else, that you don’t do, they are addicts. Got it.

RW
RW
4 years ago
Reply to  loopDloop

You got nothing, person-being. I was writing of personal experiences with all three. And you don’t have to trust my word. You can try it yourself.

loopDloop
loopDloop
4 years ago
Reply to  RW

Haha, right so the things you gave up, their shockingly addictive, but the habit you couldn’t quit, filthy cigarettes, that’s not addictive. A little cognitive dissonance there, but carry on.

RW
RW
4 years ago
Reply to  loopDloop

You keep changing (or trying to change) the topic from what I was writing about to obnoxiously worded guesses about me. That’s typical for people without arguments who want to bury a discussion under a lot of noise.

You’re last pseudo-argument is also circular. You assume that nicotine addiction must exist. Consequently, it must have caused me to fail when I tried to give up smoking. And hence, what you presumed to be true must exist.

Even the hardcore Covidians can to better than that.

HAND.

Rogerborg
4 years ago
Reply to  RW

I tried to give up drinking brake fluid, but I just couldn’t stop.

barbarbarbaudelaire
barbarbarbaudelaire
4 years ago
Reply to  RW

RW, who cares about Doop. This comments section shows where right leaning people with the same personalities as the left wing “woke” ended up.

The Manichean
The Manichean
4 years ago
Reply to  loopDloop

Perhaps you don’t realise? By adding the word ‘filthy’, every single time you write the word cigarettes, makes you sound like a bit of a nutter.
I gave up 12 years ago, so no longer have a dog in the fight.
Just saying.

annicx
4 years ago
Reply to  loopDloop

Filthy cigarettes? That’s a bit OTT isn’t it? I can’t understand why anyone would drink whisky or similar as I think it smells awful, but I don’t think I’d call it a filthy habit just because I didn’t like it.

186NO
186NO
4 years ago
Reply to  loopDloop

“No withdrawal symptoms”…..there is your evidence of addiction straight away; try giving up then report back. As with other drugs that are not addictive or so we are told ( surely not by the Pharmaceutical industry..?) eg SSRI’s – just wait until you have to stop using them, which is when the fear, anxiety and dread kicks in – or addiction/withdrawal response.

I know SSRIs are mind altering; but did not realise nicotine is too. Thank God I saw the light.

Cristi.Neagu
4 years ago
Reply to  RW

Nicotine causes mental addiction, not physical, as far as I know, which is what that constant fixation on cigarettes is. Even so, this is a cigarette problem. Cigar and pipe smokers don’t get nearly as much nicotine, so they do not get addicted at all.

But, saying that, my mom did quit abruptly. One day she said that the pack she was smoking will be the last pack she ever smokes. Everyone laughed at her, but she hasn’t had a cigarette since.

Mumbo Jumbo
4 years ago
Reply to  Cristi.Neagu

That was my experience, after numerous failed attempts, some 40 years ago. However I was particularly sensitised to smoke, to the extent that I avoided pubs until the indoor smoking ban was brought in and spent visits to my parents in another room when my Dad lit up a cigar.

RW
RW
4 years ago
Reply to  Cristi.Neagu

To the best of our current knowledge, there’s nothing mental in the body which isn’t physical in nature, we just don’t (yet) understand how it works. Hence, mental addiction is a misnomer. That’s also not what’s commonly claimed and what many people believe. And this constant fixation is also non-existant or rather, it’s nothing but an acquired habit.

The story of your mom matches those of numerous other people I know or knew who also quit smoking overnight because they just didn’t want to smoke any longer.

Cristi.Neagu
4 years ago
Reply to  RW

“Mental addiction” is not a misnomer. It refers to addictions which cause mental side effects during withdrawal. Drugs which cause physical addiction will manifest with physical symptoms. Drugs which cause mental addiction will only present as a psychological need. The former produces actual, real pain, while the latter produces need and desire. In the case of nicotine, the mind craves the same calming feeling it gets from nicotine. As far as I know, there are no physical side effect of nicotine withdrawal. You don’t get a nicotine hangover like you do with alcohol.

RW
RW
4 years ago
Reply to  Cristi.Neagu

It is a misnomer for the reason I gave: The duality body/ soul is a religious concept, not a biological one. Hence, so-called mental effects are necessarily physical. As to no physical side effects, ie none which are wrongly classified as non-physical, just try googling that. A plethora of these are supposed to exist. Except that they don’t.

Cristi.Neagu
4 years ago
Reply to  RW

So your whole argument is that psychologists don’t exist? I can only wonder what you put in your pipe…

barbarbarbaudelaire
barbarbarbaudelaire
4 years ago
Reply to  Cristi.Neagu

You need to ask the people in a quitter’s life about withdrawal symptoms! Often there is a foul mood that they don’t remember.

Cristi.Neagu
4 years ago

Having a foul mood is a mental symptom, hence mental addiction. Have you read my comment?

Rogerborg
4 years ago
Reply to  RW

An addict speaks.

Please tell me that was satire.

Star
4 years ago
Reply to  RW

If you crave, you’re addicted. The proof you offer of non-addictiveness shows only that you have the willpower to keep your subconscious in order during long flights. Possibly you are asleep during much of each flight anyway, and in any case presumably you are doing something you know you must do given that no alternative method of travel would be suitable. You also know that someone in uniform would lay down the law to you were you to light up. Dopamine levels would be an objective method of determining the presence or absence of addiction. How do you know that “you can drive yourself up the wall by constantly thinking about cigarettes”? Since most smokers do say they are addicted and you seem not to trust other people’s views that much, this sounds as though it is from personal experience and that you read a lot on flights precisely in order to keep your craving under control. The term “withdrawal symptoms” can cause confusion. Addiction is primarily psychological. We’re talking about dopamine spikes and the psychological association of certain activities with them. This is why good advice on ending a bad habit often includes creating a new good habit. Physical… Read more »

Beowulf
Beowulf
4 years ago
Reply to  Star

“If you crave, you’re addicted.”

I often crave pickled herrings – no one ever warned me that they were addictive, but now I’m hooked on this oily, omega3 rich fish. And it doesn’t stop there, the herrings are merely a gateway to Aalborg Akavit, a drink my Danish pipe-smoking wife introduced me to. I’m Beowulf and I’m a sildoholic.

RW
RW
4 years ago
Reply to  Star

The proof you offer of non-addictiveness shows only that you have the willpower to keep your subconscious in order during long flights. Possibly you are asleep during much of each flight anyway,

Unfortunately, I can’t sleep on planes because I’m seriously uncomfortable with that many strange people so close to me for prolonged periods of time and I’m also incapable of sitting motionlessly in a business class seat for prolonged periods of time, hence, this guess at something I might have been lying about is wrong.

How do you know that “you can drive yourself up the wall by constantly thinking about cigarettes”?

Because I know people who do that. Or claim to do that, at least. And it seems plausible. People are generally really good at driving themselves crazy by concentrating on some annoyance they can’t get rid of, anyway, instead of simply not doing that.

rtj1211
rtj1211
4 years ago

If someone wants to smoke somewhere that non-smokers aren’t present fine.

I don’t want to be in the presence of smokers for many reasons:

  1. Cigarette smoke certainly won’t do my airways any good, whether or not it actually harms me.
  2. I can’t stand the smell of cigarette smoke and having to breathe it in is something I consider unacceptable.
  3. I don’t see why I should have my clothes smelling of cigarette smoke because an addict thinks that their addiction trumps my right to clean air.

If smokers try and force their habit on non-smokers, then a very real discussion needs to be had as to what levels of response non-smokers should be allowed to take.

A bucket of cold water straight over their heads would be annoying, but non-violent.

If that doesn’t work, then we start to discuss what violence has to be inflicted on smokers forcing non-smokers to tolerate their disgusting habit.

Rogerborg
4 years ago
Reply to  rtj1211

If someone wants to be unmasked somewhere that masked aren’t present fine.

I don’t want to be in the presence of unmasked for many reasons:

1. Coofs virus certainly won’t do my airways any good, whether or not it actually harms me.

2. I can’t stand the infection of coofs virus and having to breathe it in is something I consider unacceptable.

3. I don’t see why I should have my clothes infected with coofs virus because an anti-masker thinks that their beliefs trumps my right to clean air.

If antimaskers try and force their habit on maskers, then a very real discussion needs to be had as to what levels of response maskers should be allowed to take.

A bucket of cold water straight over their heads would be annoying, but non-violent.

If that doesn’t work, then we start to discuss what violence has to be inflicted on antimaskers forcing maskers to tolerate their disgusting habit.

Just a little thought experiment.

How false is the equivalence?

Rogerborg
4 years ago
Reply to  Rogerborg

A downvote confirms the point, with added salt.

stewart
4 years ago
Reply to  Rogerborg

You could substitute any number of human activities that affect others. Driving a car? Speaking or making any kind of noise? Where the hell does one draw the line? This is a question I have been pondering a lot on over the last couple of years for obvious reasons, seen as breathing in public has been deemed a potential public hazard – the pinnacle of intolerance, I would say. And as we’ve seen, the intolerance stance leads to absolute misery. But what sturdy argument is there for people to accept and tolerate what someone else might deem antisocial behaviour? The best I have been able to come up with is this: Before asking someone who is doing something that bothers or offends your or even threatens you to change their behaviour, you need to ask oneself what you can do yourself to avoid it. If you can get away from it with little loss except your “right” to not be bothered, then I think in a tolerant society you just avoid the antisocial behaviour or you put up with it. I would go further as to say that if the cost of putting up with the behaviour of others comes… Read more »

Rogerborg
4 years ago
Reply to  stewart

Yes, how about that one though? It seems relevant to he discussions that we’ve been having here, and isn’t an entirely unrelated situation.

I agree with you that it’s better to distance yourself where possible rather than try to impose you will. Both with muzzles, and with smoking.

If we take the position that it’s fine to use force to end what we perceive as a threat, then we can’t very well argue against it when the (imagined) noxious vapours are of a different sort.

Arum
Arum
4 years ago
Reply to  stewart

According to the Dutch study cited ATL, jogging (or other healthy activity) causes a cost on the public purse and should therefore be regarded as antisocial behaviour…

Arum
Arum
4 years ago
Reply to  Arum

Unless the jogger dies of a heart attack in the process of course – then it is fine.

gina
gina
4 years ago
Reply to  stewart

Agree especially with your point on what you can do to avoid things that offend or threaten you.
I used to smoke roll ups. I always found it amusing to invite dinner guests who disliked cigarette smoking, or were judgemental about the habit, to step outside into my very nice little garden for a few minutes while the smokers stayed at the table and enjoyed an after dinner ciggy. After the initial surprise at the suggestion not one non smoker ever got up and left the table…
Now I’m an ex smoker I can’t bear guests feeling they have to leave the house and conversation to stand outside and smoke.
Your point on competitive anti social behaviour made me smile.

annicx
4 years ago
Reply to  gina

I would love to have been at that table…

barbarbarbaudelaire
barbarbarbaudelaire
4 years ago
Reply to  Rogerborg

I think you are right. The trick is to have enough self possession to not need to dictate to others in your environment. If only to go elsewhere. Short of avoiding violence and screaming abuse people don’t exist to conform to our needs.

Beowulf
Beowulf
4 years ago
Reply to  rtj1211

I love the smell of pipe tobacco in the morning – it smells of The Shire.

Cristi.Neagu
4 years ago
Reply to  Beowulf

Too bad McClelland is no longer around. They made the most Shire-like tobaccos. If there was ever anyone capable of making Old Toby or Longbottom Leaf, it was them.

Beowulf
Beowulf
4 years ago
Reply to  Cristi.Neagu

My wife is a pipe-smoker (which for some reason some people seem to find amusing, but there you go, so much for our Age of Enlightenment) and being an avid reader of Tolkien, at one time managed to buy a McQueen’s ‘Gandalf’ style pipe. It was a devil to clean, being so long, but I don’t think she ever smoked McClelland tobacco, which is a shame.

Cristi.Neagu
4 years ago
Reply to  Beowulf

You don’t often see a woman smoking a pipe! Which is too bad, really. A lot of people would benefit from pipe smoking. As someone said once: “Have you ever seen an angry pipe smoker?”

Mumbo Jumbo
4 years ago
Reply to  Cristi.Neagu

I recall Harold Wilson could be a bit tetchy at times, and would jab his pipe at people for emphasis.

Hopeless - "TN,BN"
4 years ago
Reply to  Beowulf

I spent time in Scandinavia, mainly Norway, in the Sixties, and although not common, I met several lady pipe smokers. Just after the last War, my father had a live-in girlfriend, a cousin of a noble family, who wore trousers and smoked a pipe; in rural Suffolk.

Mumbo Jumbo
4 years ago

I spent time in Sweden in the eighties and was truly disgusted by the habits of tobacco chewers. I recall a train journey one Sunday with a family all done up in their Sunday best standing on the platform of a rural station. One pretty young girl was chewing tobacco, and having contest with her brother, seeing who could hit one of the rails with tobacco laden spit. A charming rural sight.

Beowulf
Beowulf
4 years ago

My wife’s Danish, which I never thought to mention. Now I think about it, on a recent trip to Denmark she one of her sisters were feeling pleased with themselves because they had just bought two new pipes for 600 Kr. (a bargain) from a tobacconist. I thought her sister only smoked ciggies, but I was wrong.

Mumbo Jumbo
4 years ago
Reply to  Beowulf

I used to love the smell of tobacco. It was only when people start burning it that I find it unpleasant. I have lost my sense of smell now, but that is unaffected by smoke.

annicx
4 years ago
Reply to  Mumbo Jumbo

It is actually very nice. I have a small smoker’s cabinet which has been passed down over the years, (it was a gift to my Grandfather around the time of WW1 it seems), and although I have never smoked it has always fascinated me and to this day still smells of tobacco when opened.

Cristi.Neagu
4 years ago
Reply to  rtj1211

The problem is that non-smokers have been forcing their habit on smokers. It used to be that all public places were available for smokers. People even smoked on airplanes. Then non-smokers complained and smokers, kind hearted and understanding as they are, conceded and accepted the idea of non-smoking areas. But as ever with these things, the non-smoking areas have gotten bigger and bigger, until now there’s almost no smoking spaces left. They’re even made up to be demeaning. I’ve seen smoking cubicles in the airport in Stockholm that look like fish tanks. It’s like you’re walking by, looking at the almost extinct species of Smokeris Familiaris. But it goes even further than that. It’s not just an effort to remove smokers from society. The effort is about stopping the consumption of tobacco altogether. People won’t even be able to smoke in their homes soon, because tobacco will be banned. And if that’s not an abuse of power, I don’t know what is. Studies have consistently shown that nicotine has many beneficial properties. Consumed in moderation calms and focuses the mind. It is only in very high concentrations (as found in cigarettes) that it causes addiction. And the main problems with… Read more »

stewart
4 years ago
Reply to  Cristi.Neagu

Have never smoked, but have always been against the banning of smoking in public areas. It thought the argument that it harmed other people and so should be stopped (as opposed to people being left to willingly stay away from smokers) would just be the thin end of the wedge and used again in the future.

Wasn’t wrong.

loopDloop
loopDloop
4 years ago
Reply to  rtj1211

‘If that doesn’t work, then we start to discuss what violence has to be inflicted on smokers forcing non-smokers to tolerate their disgusting habit.’

Most disgusting comment I’ve ever read here. For shame.

RW
RW
4 years ago
Reply to  rtj1211

I can’t stand the smell of cigarette smoke and having to breathe it in is something I consider unacceptable.

I can’t stand the smell of stale piss on trousers, of dried shit on people’s asses and of unwashed feet. In short: All the odours common among non smokers with poor personal hygenie. I don’t think they should have a right to force this onto me, either.

Mumbo Jumbo
4 years ago
Reply to  RW

Are you really suggesting that only non-smokers suffer from poor personal hygiene? My personal experience is that many smokers suffer from this, and I have always thought that their smoking was, in part at least, to cover up the other personal odours.

Backlash
Backlash
4 years ago
Reply to  Mumbo Jumbo

I can still remember the weekend smoking became banned in pubs. All you could smell was stale farts without the tobacco to mask it

Mumbo Jumbo
4 years ago
Reply to  Backlash

Did you also stick to the floor covering (formerly known as carpet).

annicx
4 years ago
Reply to  Backlash

And see all the doors closing on traditional pubs as the simple joy of a pint and a smoke was banned.

RW
RW
4 years ago
Reply to  Mumbo Jumbo

In an ideal universe, absolutely so! 🙂 In the real world, obviously not. I should have written common among groups congregating in places where smoking is prohibited, ie, among people who are not smoking, not among people who never smoke.

Nearhorburian
Nearhorburian
4 years ago
Reply to  rtj1211

It was always possible for there to be non-smoking pubs where you and like-minded people could socialise.

It was always possible for pubs to have smoking and non-smoking rooms . The Prince Albert in Ely did that, and the smokers room had an excellent extractor: my girlfriend objected to cigarette smoke much more than I did but was perfectly happy to eat lunch in the no-smoking room.

The smoking ban made small pub gardens much less pleasant for non-smokers.

annicx
4 years ago
Reply to  rtj1211

In what situation do you ‘have’ to breathe cigarette smoke? You don’t like something, you move on- you don’t demand other people do what suits you. I used to work in a rock pub and often we would get people complain about the volume of the music because they couldn’t talk to each other properly, despite the fact that everyone else was clearly enjoying themselves. They came into a noisy pub, bought a drink, then complained. The idea that they could simply go elsewhere seemed lost on them. We never turned the volume down.

PaulMac66
PaulMac66
4 years ago

Stinks though… innit.

Cristi.Neagu
4 years ago
Reply to  PaulMac66

You have clearly never been around a pipe smoker.

PaulMac66
PaulMac66
4 years ago
Reply to  Cristi.Neagu

I’m 55 I’ve been around loads of pipe smokers and I agree that pipe tobacco smells very pleasant indeed. I never minded smokers in bars. In fact I used to enjoy a social ciggie when drunk. But once they introduced the no smoking rules in bars I realised how much fags stink. My clothes were unwearable the following day after a night on the drink and I would never want to return to those days. Plus the price of a box of tabs is extortionate and an absolute waste of money. However I couldn’t care less whether a person smokes or not. As long as they don’t blow their smoke in my face.

Cristi.Neagu
4 years ago
Reply to  PaulMac66

The price of cigarettes being high is not an argument. They’re high because they’re forcing people to stop smoking. And if it was just cigarettes, I’d at least understand. But it affects all tobacco products. I just did a quick check and it is 10-15% cheaper to import Irish tobacco from the US than buy it in a UK shop.

NickR
4 years ago

OK, ok, correlation may not be causation….. but I’m not so sure.

080322 obesity smoking.jpg
stewart
4 years ago
Reply to  NickR

Thought provoking at the very least.

I’m pretty sure you can’t legislate away the propensity of people to do harm to themselves through overindulgence.

barbarbarbaudelaire
barbarbarbaudelaire
4 years ago
Reply to  stewart

I rather enjoyed overindulgence until age caught up with me. But I still enjoy it vicariously.

annicx
4 years ago
Reply to  stewart

Nor should we even try. It is nothing to do with anyone else. This should not be the business of government.

Mumbo Jumbo
4 years ago
Reply to  NickR

My cigar and pipe-smoking Dad was nearly spherical and died in his nineties.

Cristi.Neagu
4 years ago

What I would really want is for people to stop bunching all tobacco into the cigarette category. Studies have consistently shown that smoking pipes and cigars does not carry the risks associated with smoking cigarettes. Because pipe and cigar smokers do not inhale, they are not at risk of lung cancer. Studies have shown that smoking even a couple of cigars a day will not significantly increase your risk of dying over non-smokers. And very few people have that much money to smoke cigars every day. And a study has shown that, on average, pipe smokers live longer than non-smokers. On the other hand, cigarettes are designed to cause addiction and nothing else. The average cigarette is made up of about 50% very poor tobacco and about 50% nicotine impregnated paper. There is nothing natural about them. Cigars and pipe tobacco are, for the most part) entirely natural. And because of the lower nicotine intake, you don’t get addicted to them any more than you would with coffee. Meanwhile, cigars and pipes have been bunched together with cigarettes, unjustly demonized. The taxes on these products are absolutely ridiculous. A cigar that would cost $5-6 in the US can cost over… Read more »

Mumbo Jumbo
4 years ago
Reply to  Cristi.Neagu

Yes, they get mouth cancers instead.

Cristi.Neagu
4 years ago
Reply to  Mumbo Jumbo

The rate is exceedingly small. Studies have shown that smoking up to a couple of cigars a day has no increase risk of mortality over non-smokers.

barbarbarbaudelaire
barbarbarbaudelaire
4 years ago
Reply to  Cristi.Neagu

You don’t inhale???

Cristi.Neagu
4 years ago

Of course not. Go on any page or forum about cigar or pipe smoking and every single one will be very clear: Don’t inhale.

Smelly Melly
4 years ago

How I love to see morbidly obese people with a fag in their mouths and a chin warmer (face mask) ready to put back in place once they have had said fag. But hey, us non obese, non smoking, but selfish “anti vaxxers” are the problem to the NHS.

stewart
4 years ago

Yet another costly blunder from the central planners.

Fireweasel
Fireweasel
4 years ago

Tobacco is like food, the gits stuff it with chemical additives.   In the past if you dropped or left down a cigarette which contained natural tobacco it went out almost immediately. Then around the 1970s they started putting chemical additives in the tobacco to make cigarettes burn faster. With the additives added, when you left down or dropped a cigarette, it quickly burned away – which meant more profit for the tobacco companies.   But this brought on a problem. Prior to the additives being added to cigarettes, if one was dropped (think someone after a few drinks) in a home it usually went out before it could generate enough heat to start a fire and burn the house down.   But after the additives were added a dropped cigarette stayed burning and thus could generate enough heat to start a fire and burn the property to the ground.   To stop homes being burned down they added yet more chemicals to the tobacco so cigarettes went out quickly if they were dropped.   I suspect that if tobacco was natural like the stuff that was smoked in the 1920s it would do less harm to people and fewer… Read more »

Cristi.Neagu
4 years ago
Reply to  Fireweasel

Both my mom and my dad told me that back in the ’60s and ’70s it used to be a pleasure to sit next to a cigarette smoker because the cigarettes had a very pleasant smell. And even today, when I smoke a pipe, my girlfriend enjoys the smell even though she doesn’t smoke at all. Natural tobacco does not smell bad at all. Cigarettes are not natural tobacco. As you say, they are filled with all sorts of additives. And on top of that they contain nicotine impregnated paper, to cause addiction.

smithey
4 years ago

Media in US are acknowledging an increase in myocarditis but blaming it on the war in Ukraine!
Media Says Spike In Myocarditis May Be Linked To Ukraine Crisis | The Babylon Bee

stewart
4 years ago
Reply to  smithey

You know that the The Babylon Bee is spoof news, right?

smithey
4 years ago
Reply to  stewart

Ooops – Just realised. I saw the article trending on Linkedin, sad thing is it is hard to tell the difference between satire and what is printed in the msm!

barbarbarbaudelaire
barbarbarbaudelaire
4 years ago
Reply to  smithey

Yes, but it is based on fact. (Most of the Bee is a twist on something true.) Look at all the excuses the MSM has come up with for increased heart problems. Now they are willing to say that lockdown and associated factors were harmful so they can use lockdown to cover for vaccine issues.

annicx
4 years ago
Reply to  stewart

Yes- and it’s absolutely brilliant!

Catee
4 years ago

Skimmed through it all, I don’t think it mentions the amount of tax that smokers pay in the UK which helps pay for the NHS.

Cristi.Neagu
4 years ago
Reply to  Catee

Indeed. Just checked right now, out of curiosity. A tin of Peterson pipe tobacco made in Ireland (Connoisseur’s Choice, to be precise) costs in a US online store $10.99. The exact same tin costs in an UK online store £16.78. That is over twice as expensive, and we don’t even have to fly it in over an entire ocean! Even with shipping included, I’d be saving 3 quid by buying from the US. Ridiculous.

MrTea
MrTea
4 years ago

If a team of British Docotors led by a businessman develop a radical method of treating numerous types of cancer where conventional medicine sent the sufferers home to die would the British authorities –
1) Hail this man as a hero and fast track his treatment or
2) Declare him to be a criminal and put him in prison?

(Please note the treatment was proven nontoxic, never harmed anyone that used it and cost about £250 with a near perfect success rate)

GcMAF and the Persecution of David Noakes, Lyn Thyer & Immuno Biotech
https://www.ukcolumn.org/article/gcmaf-and-persecution-david-noakes-lyn-thyer-immuno-biotech

Bolloxed Britannia
Bolloxed Britannia
4 years ago

😂😂 Taking into consideration the absolute avalanche of sanctamonious shit, outright malevolent lies and the new quest by the global Bond villain technocracy for population thining worldwide conflagration, I’ve decided to smoke all the tobacco, crack cocaine and Ganja i can get my unvaccinated paws on…

prick
4 years ago

Budge up fellah and skin a fat one

barbarbarbaudelaire
barbarbarbaudelaire
4 years ago

I’m with you!! I’m so dedicated I started 35 years early.

NickR
4 years ago

I think it was John Mortimer who said “there is no pleasure worth foregoing to spend an extra year or two in a care home”.
He famously restarted smoking cigars when the smoking ban was extended to pubs.

Star
4 years ago

Yes, the German Nazi government was anti-smoking and took several measures to discourage it. And the US army encouraged it. And the point is?

Some of us remember how Roger “Mr Freedom” Scruton tarted himself to Big Tobacco, offering some quickie help for an envelope full of money.

gavinfdavies
gavinfdavies
4 years ago

I find it interesting that another potentially addictive and potentially harmful via over consumption substance is not mentioned here at all: Alcohol.

While people like to claim that is only harms the drinkers, I would point out that roughly 5 people a week are killed by drink drivers in the UK. And if you have the misfortune to visit a hospital accident and emergency ward on a Friday or Saturday night, do you think it will be full of smoking related injuries, or alcohol related injuries? Afterall, we don’t have dozens of coppers patrolling city centres at night because of anti-social smokers.

Maybe those rabid anti smokers could consider that their same arguements could be applied against their beloved alcohol?

Oh, I used to drink. Also, occasionally enjoy a cigar on long car journeys. I stopped both in my early twenties, but only miss the later.

Cristi.Neagu
4 years ago
Reply to  gavinfdavies

5 people a week are killed by drunk drivers. How many are killed by sober drivers?

Alcohol has a very fundamental importance to human culture. It is so fundamental that people don’t even realize it. Did you know that people have brewed alcohol before they were baking bread? Beer and wine are intertwined with our oldest myths and legends. Christianity still uses wine to symbolise the blood of Christ. Banning alcohol is just one more step in the cultural erasure that’s been going on around us for decades.

barbarbarbaudelaire
barbarbarbaudelaire
4 years ago
Reply to  Cristi.Neagu

5 people a week are killed by drunk drivers. How many are killed by sober drivers?”

True! I always took great care driving drunk… Sober people feel entitled to accidents. 😉

Backlash
Backlash
4 years ago

Smokers are ignorant cunts. One blew his smoke into my face as I left a shopping centre, so I gobbed in his face in retaliation and he suddenly got upset about it!

dearieme
dearieme
4 years ago

I don’t mind cigar smokers, pipe puffers, or snuff takers. It’s cancer stick users who upset me – they make my eyes smart and my clothes stink. Their bad manners therefore justify their being marooned in the bicycle sheds.

But I like liars even less so the proponents of the passive smoking dogma should be marooned among cigarette smokers for the rest of their days.

Tenchy
4 years ago

This superb extract from Yes, Prime Minister is the best explanation I’ve come across. I particularly like the part from 3:50 …..

The Smoking Ban | Yes, Prime Minister | Comedy Greats – YouTube

annicx
4 years ago
Reply to  Tenchy

How much of this great comedy programme that we used to laugh at is now sadly a fact of life?

BillRiceJr
BillRiceJr
4 years ago

There’s no doubt many government policies have a disparate impact on the poor, who the government really exploits for always-needed extra revenue. In my view, the level of taxes put on a pack of cigarettes is legalized theft. In New York City, the most popular brands of smokes retail for over $10 with city, state and federal taxes probably comprising about 85 percent of this cost. And these huge taxes can have tragic and unforeseen consequences. I still remember the case of the African-American man in New York City several years ago who was killed by police when they attempted to arrest him and put him in a choke hold. What was this man’s “crime?” He was trying to sell “loose cigarettes” outside of a store.  The man had bought a pack of cigarettes and was selling these cigarettes one at a time outside of a business. He was doing this because there clearly was/is a market for a 50-cent single cigarette (as opposed to would-be customers spending $10+ for a pack of 20 cigarettes). The man’s real crime was that he wasn’t paying the local government its “cut” (i..e taxes) on this sell. I think I’m the only person… Read more »

BillRiceJr
BillRiceJr
4 years ago
Reply to  BillRiceJr

Like others, I’ve even opined that government has essentially taken over many of organized crime’s best “rackets.” The lottery is my favorite example of this. In America, I think something like 45 states have legalized the lottery. A lottery is actually a version of the Mafia’s “numbers racket.” The only difference is that the government’s version gives players a much lower chances of winning the “jackpot” and, if you do win the big jackpot, the state and federal government are going to take 60 percent of “your” winnings. The lottery largely targets the poor who are fantasizing over some “get rich quick” scheme and often spend the proverbial milk or diaper money to buy their tickets. The government of course has a legal monopoly on lotteries (for example, I couldn’t start my own lottery – offering better odds of winning and giving lottery fans more lottery choices). The government also uses some of its take to run constant advertisements, encouraging citizens to spend their money buying a 1-in-1-million chance to get rich. My libertarian side says let people do what they want with their own money. My gripe is that the version the government “lets” the public enjoy is a… Read more »

annicx
4 years ago
Reply to  BillRiceJr

All true- except that the odds on a multi-million lottery win are more like 14 million to one I believe. It always amazes me how so many of the people that complain about ‘them wi’ munneh’, (a Northern English phrase), or ‘the rich’ can’t wait to buy a ticket because they secretly love the idea of being rich but can’t be bothered to actually do something about it- or at least try to. It’s much easier to convince yourself that the wealth is due to something dodgy that you would never dream of doing or just dumb luck- that way you avoid responsibility for your situation and feel quite pious about your situation. The Government know this full well and so will sell you a ticket to your dream on a weekly basis.

annicx
4 years ago
Reply to  BillRiceJr

I’m pretty sure that’s why drugs have never been legalized- they’re too difficult to tax and regulate.

Nessimmersion
4 years ago

There is a reason many of the historical paintings & pictures of the great thinkers, inventors and leaders of yesteryear are seen smoking a pipe or cigar.
For whatever reason the physical action or the action of Niacin from the tobacco is perceived to aid cognition.

Cristi.Neagu
4 years ago
Reply to  Nessimmersion

It’s the nicotine. And it’s not perceived, it is well proven that nicotine is a mind stimulant.

BillRiceJr
BillRiceJr
4 years ago

We know that governments can’t ban cigarette smoking … because governments and Big Tobacco make too much money from cigarettes. Still, if “public health” was the all-important function of government, it would do exactly this.

I wrote a piece in July 2020 arguing that the Powers that Be in sports should NOT cancel sports. I said (correctly of course) that COVID posed no health risk to healthy young athletes. I also pointed out that if these crusaders doing everything they can to save even one life were sincere, they would outlaw the sport of American football, which causes up to 12 deaths/year (from heat strokes, broken necks, etc.). And that’s just deaths, thousands of participants suffer very serious injuries.

Cristi.Neagu
4 years ago
Reply to  BillRiceJr

They’re not banning them. They are using taxation in what I consider to be an immoral manner. Taxation is meant to be payment to the government in exchange for services rendered. The government is using taxation to deter people from doing things.

annicx
4 years ago
Reply to  Cristi.Neagu

Taxing people’s endeavours is immoral full stop.

annicx
4 years ago
Reply to  BillRiceJr

I love American Football and motor sport- about the only sports I enjoy watching because they’re exciting and fun, so I’m sure they’ll be banned in due course.

godders
4 years ago

I feel sorry for smokers, hooked after just a few puffs on a filthy and hazardous habit that many find hard to break. I still remember the agonising weeks it took me to wean myself of the weed half a century ago.
Isn’t the answer to force manufacturers to remove nicotine – which I gather is as addictive as heroin – from all cigarettes and smoking tobacco? After all, brewers managed to take the alcohol out of lager to help drinkers who wanted to drive without fear of being breathalysed.

annicx
4 years ago
Reply to  godders

Yes, but have you ever tasted alcohol free lager? It is absolutely disgusting, not to mention pointless. If you don’t want to get nicked for drink driving, don’t do it. Simples.

rxwynne
rxwynne
4 years ago

I have to put in my two cents, only because of evil antismokerism and abuse of smokers. Smoking is far from the worse thing a person can do, but society behaves as though it is and lies about it as well. Smokers are not supposed to be able to rent, and are discriminated against in making the attempt. If smoking were an addiction, as *they* say, it would be an “illness” and discrimination ought to be illegal. I believe smoking is a habit, and people are creatures of habit. It is also a strong symbol of freedom. I think smokers should receive preferential treatment and be given free homes since they suffer such abuse and discrimination. Anti-smokers should consign themselves to rental properties with signs such as, “This is a smoke-free property”. Then they can be proud instead of directing their own lack of confidence by attacking others. It is politically correct and a fabulous narrative to despise tobacco smokers and tobacco, but to embrace marijuana because that’s just so okay to smoke. I mean, it’s medicine!

JohnK
4 years ago

The article doesn’t seem to say that smoking is a source of revenue for the Treasury – unless it assumes that they all avoid excise duty with VAT on top.

It reminded me of the script for the old “Yes, Minister” comedy some years ago, in which the Permanent Sec tried to educate the Minister about it, along the lines of reducing the costs of the NHS (because life expectancy is reduced), and it brings forward revenue. You win both ways, Minister!

AHotston
AHotston
4 years ago

“Supposed lethality”?
Does the author really work at Duke University, rather than the Marlboro University or the Benson & Hedges College?
Freedom of speech is great – I’m going to exercise mine – this article is the acme of shameless, meritless cynicism.

186NO
186NO
4 years ago

I reckon this is about 3 weeks or so early.

Michael Staples
Michael Staples
4 years ago

I have argued this for some time. Everyone tends to incur most of their medical costs just before death, whenever that may come. However those who are fat, smoke or generally don’t look after their health, generally die earlier, saving the state considerable amounts of benefit and pension costs. They are doing the rest of us a favour.

JXB
JXB
4 years ago

I’m not a smoker, don’t want it near me. The cost burden: we all, including smokers, pay by compulsion for the NHS. When the cost of a good is socialised, we are subject to Marx’s rule: according to the means of each; according to the needs of each. Don’t like it? Don’t agree to socialised medical care. A private system would mean, as with motoring, that higher risk, and/or repeat claimants pay higher premiums. Oh what about the poor? Boo hoo.

In any case, the argument goes thus: smoking reduces life expectancy; related diseases cost more to treat. Well, if smoking reduces time on Earth, their lifetime requirement for medical care and pensions is reduced, so on balance they cost less than ‘healthy’ people.

Furthermore, the diseases smokers get are also associated with old age, so if they didn’t smoke, and thus live longer, they would still get some of the ‘smoking related’ diseases.

If smokers want to smoke, that’s fine as long as others don’t have to share the experience with them.