Should Ukraine Accept Putin’s Terms of Peace?

Outrage. That seems to be the emotion driving current policy towards Russia, replacing in a moment the Fear that had dominated Covid policymaking in the past two years. And rightly so, you might say. Putin has just invaded a sovereign nation for no other reason (if he is to be believed) than to take territory off it and impose an unwanted political neutrality upon it. But while outrage is an understandable emotional response, a justified one even, it is not a sound way to approach grave questions of war, peace and national security.

Our leaders ramp up the sanctions, doing severe harm to our own economies already reeling after two years of extreme responses to the pandemic. The cost of energy keeps on going higher and that’s before Putin has followed through on his threat (let’s assume he doesn’t make idle ones) to cut off the gas. This is despite the fact that the West is not at war with Russia, nor is Russia even at war with a Western ally. Why are we imposing such high costs on ourselves to rally to the defence of a country that we hadn’t troubled ourselves formally to ally with? The answer, it seems, is outrage. The costs we are imposing on ourselves will far exceed the costs of other recent conflicts, certainly in terms of broad social and economic impact, creating severe cost-of-living problems for large parts of society. Which might be fine if we were at war, but we are not. Let’s not forget that the reason we hadn’t allied ourselves with Ukraine is precisely because we didn’t want to get involved in a war with Russia. Have we abandoned that important geopolitical goal?

If media sources are to be believed, the Russian incursion has not gone as well as the invaders had hoped and they have suffered significant losses. Nonetheless, there can be little doubt that the Russian armed forces are laying waste to large parts of the country, killing many people and doing damage the low income nation can scarcely afford and which will take years to repair.

The Russians have now reiterated their war aims, which are the terms on which they say they would end the invasion. They should surprise no one who has been paying attention to what they have been saying since the start. The Russians want Ukraine to recognise Russian control of Crimea and the independence of the eastern pro-Russia regions of Donetsk and Luhansk, plus (perhaps most importantly) a constitutional change which commits Ukraine to be neutral and not join the EU or NATO. They have said they recognise that Ukraine is an independent state and appear to have dropped the aim to “de-Nazify” the country.

The response to these demands so far seems to be that they are unacceptable, and Ukraine must be free to make alliances as it sees fit. This means that Russia will continue to wage its war, continue to inflict substantial damage on the country and its people, and Western economies will continue to suffer, alongside Russia’s, as the war continues.

Russia isn’t (it says) trying to take control of the country (it’s not clear that it could) or impose a pro-Russia puppet Government. It isn’t even trying to take direct control of more Ukrainian territory than it already has. It just says it wants a formal constitutional commitment that Ukraine will remain a neutral border state not allied with its de facto ‘enemies’, and recognition of the independence of two eastern regions and its earlier annexation of Crimea.

This hardly seems an unreasonable price for peace – peace that is obviously to everyone’s benefit. The problem is that Western leaders seem to have become committed to the idea that Putin must be seen to fail completely in his illegal war. Given that we are not actually involved in this war, at least in the traditional, military sense, this is a very tricky aim to have, as it implies that despite not fighting the war we are committed psychologically and politically to Putin losing. If that really is our aim, then really we should enter the war properly and actually do what is necessary to bring it about. But we are not willing to do that, because we know that a direct conflict with Russia could get very nasty for us indeed. So instead we expect Ukraine to fight Russia alone, despite being vastly outnumbered, while we supply arms and sanction and boycott Russia to try to bring its economy to its knees.

A significant problem, however, is that many of the sanctions and boycotts appear to be doing at least as much damage to the West as they are to Russia, whose economy is largely insulated from Western action (though perhaps not as much as Putin had hoped).

Since we are inflicting so much harm on our own economies for the sake of a country that is not formally an ally, one question is what will we have left to defend ourselves and our allies should we be attacked?

Outrage appears to forbid this kind of question – fortified by a sense that Putin must not get away with it. His aggression must not be rewarded. I share these sentiments, of course. But they are in the end sentiments, not hard-headed considerations of national security or what is most likely to achieve and maintain peace.

Some have argued that Putin must be stopped now or he will only keep going. But in fact, his ambitions in Ukraine appear to be relatively modest, restricting himself largely to insisting on it being a neutral neighbour. Maybe we don’t believe him, but then if that was how we felt we should have included countries like Ukraine in NATO years ago. There is no indication that Putin will risk attacking a NATO country; he isn’t even (he says) trying to take direct control of more Ukrainian territory or install a puppet government.

The West is powerful but it is not almighty. Defeats in Afghanistan, Syria, Vietnam and elsewhere over the years have taught us that. We cannot fight every battle, vanquish every aggressor, topple every dictator, avenge every abuse. Just as we need to restore a proper sense of proportion in public health policy that was lost sight of over the last two years – we can’t prevent every infection and death – so also we need to maintain a proper sense of what our foreign policy can and cannot achieve, and how much we can afford.

Putin has set out his terms. I’m sure he is keen to withdraw from a war that is costing him considerably, but equally he will not want to go back without what he set out to achieve. Can Ukraine and we in the West swallow our outrage and accept his terms? They leave Ukraine largely intact as an independent country, albeit one unable to make alliances with Russia’s geopolitical competitors (or indeed with Russia). The alternative is that Russia continues its devastation of the country while Ukraine hopes to inflict enough losses in the process that Russia eventually gives up; meanwhile, the West continues its self-destructive sanctions in the hope they add to the pressure on Russia to throw in the towel. It’s a very costly and high risk strategy, particularly given Putin has a considerable military, some highly destructive weapons being held in reserve and a strong incentive not to end in failure. The question is, is Ukraine’s future membership of the EU and NATO really worth all this death and destruction in the country, and all this pain for Western economies? It’s hard to see why the West deems this such an important geopolitical goal that it warrants paying such a high price economically. Even for Ukraine, under Russia’s terms the country would retain its independent government and almost all its territory – this wouldn’t seem an existential matter. Is it worth paying such a high price to avoid? Are priorities and costs being properly weighed by Ukraine and the West, or is the response being largely driven by emotion?

The only argument I can see that would potentially justify the response is if it is seen as a precedent that must not be allowed to stand. But since Ukraine is not part of NATO, and there was never any pledge of military support (and none has been given), what precedent is this supposed to be? That major powers will take action if their security concerns are not respected by neighbouring countries? It seems a strange precedent to go to war over, particularly as America (for instance) would expect nothing less for itself. We don’t have to agree that Putin is ‘entitled’ to do this in some ‘moral’ sense, just to recognise that he has the military power to insist on it (like America does), and accept it as a cold reality of Great Power politics that we don’t like but is more trouble than it’s worth to change. The idea that Putin is plotting a general imperial project has no basis – he’s not even trying to take direct control of Donetsk and Luhansk, two pro-Russian regions on his border, let alone the whole of Ukraine or any other country. He will be acutely aware of the cost of military action and any attempt to subdue an unwilling country.

It seems to me the response of Ukraine and the West is being driven primarily by outrage – wholly understandable outrage that I share. But outrage is no basis for cool-headed policymaking, and even less is it a formula for maintaining or restoring peace in international affairs. That requires much harder-headed thinking about what’s actually going on in the geopolitical interests of countries, and how mutually destructive situations can best be resolved with the least amount of harm, particularly to the non-aggressors.

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dearieme
dearieme
4 years ago

“Outrage” is politer than a “temper tantrum”. How everything interacts with the Biden family’s corruption, God knows.

TheyLiveAndWeLockdown
4 years ago
Reply to  dearieme

The Biden family are Hunters of corruption.

Mark
4 years ago

As Tucker Carlson pointed out earlier today, we are in the midst of the third great civilisation-wide moral panic to sweep the US sphere in just two years. Previously we had covid and BLM, both of which relied on emotional manipulation and the bullying of dissenters into silence, and both of were based on outright lies that were suppressed for long enough for great harms to be done. As those tail off (though by no means have they disappeared completely), we now have the third sweeping in over Russia, already having done huge harm and threatening much more. This is based on lies just as the others were:  – the pretence that Russia is some kind of equivalent of the Soviet Union or Third Reich, and that Russia could be a plausible military threat to the US and its major satellite states. The simple facts about military spending and capabilities and economic power render this an obvious lie.  – the claim that this is “irrational” or “unprovoked aggression” by Russia, which is demonstrably untrue given the history of US policy and NATO expansion. The fact that we were repeatedly warned by many experienced strategists that the policy adopted by the… Read more »

Amtrup
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

^^^^^^^^^^^^

JASA
JASA
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Spot on.

Dave Bollocks
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

There’s also all the climate BS.

Mark
4 years ago
Reply to  Dave Bollocks

Yes, there is, but that’s been rather lower key lately, I think because the climate alarmists basically won everything and it hasn’t seemed urgent (politically) to them recently. Doubtless it’ll ramp up as energy costs rise and resistance to their particular lunacy steps up.

John Dee
4 years ago
Reply to  Dave Bollocks

I think it’ll be OK with Greta, so long as the Russian tanks are electric-drive. Otherwise, there’ll be hell to pay.

Mark
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

A bit rushed and missed the edit deadline. The first paragraph should finish:

 both of which were based on outright lies, for which the truths that were suppressed for long enough for great harms to be done.

B.F.Finlayson
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

A bit rushed and missed…

Go have a cuppa and slice of cake (or three). You are putting yourself in danger of burning out prematurely by responding to every peep and toot from the MSM echo chamber – no matter how appreciated your sterling efforts are.
It’s a losing battle BTL at times, as there’s an awful lot of stony ground; on the other hand not nearly as much as there clearly is ATL. Content yourself knowing that by March 2023 every ‘sceptic’ will have finally caught up with the deliberate US encroachment and proxy-state agenda – but what the world will look like by then is anyone’s guess.
Be sure that by then many of those now draped in yellow and blue flags that will be claiming that they knew Putin had been right all along with his actions against the corrupt and vicious Kiev neo-Nazi puppet regime. It is just regrettable that this situation, ongoing for years, should have got anywhere near this point before the penny dropped.
Go on, have another slice…

porgycorgy
porgycorgy
4 years ago
Reply to  B.F.Finlayson

Absolutely. Sad that people (even including plenty of sceptics) cannot see this proxy war by the West.

James Kreis
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Brilliant Mark. I honestly didn’t know where to start. Thank you.

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

The US is in moral, political, economic, cultural and social meltdown and seems to be intent on taking the world ( at least the West) down with it – the deranged Globalists and their evil schemes to enslave us are out of control – their corrupting money has allowed them to buy all the Institutions of the world and our lives as their playthings.

Arfur Mo
Arfur Mo
4 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

The US is actually sending negotiators to Venezuela and Iran to seek extra oil supplies. These are two countries till under its sanctions,have suffered numerous regime change attempts and had assets stolen (Venezuela ~£16 billion in gold). How pathetic is that? (/rhetorical)

Russia has only just started applying serious reverse santions. It has built a list of ‘unfriendly’ nations targetted for such sanctions. The first has just been enacted. Russian companies are no longer obligated to comply with IP rights of organisations from ‘unfriendly’ states. The next, at a suitable time, is likely to be nationalisation of assets in Russia belonging to companies from ‘unfriendly’ states.

Star
4 years ago
Reply to  Arfur Mo

If Russia carries out a financial strike against the City of London, for all the City’s “resilience” planning it won’t know what hit it. Many features of economic life that people took for granted will stop.

Back in 1987 it was Iran that triggered the financial crash, even if few now remember.

Timing? Well who knows, but the next triple witching day on the derivatives markets is Friday 18 March, so then or on the Monday might be high on the list of possibles.

The Dow Jones Industrial Average is now at around 33000. In 1987 before the crash it was at about 2600. Its growth has been equivalent to 7.5% per year for 35 years.

What could possibly go wrong? 🙂

peyrole
peyrole
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

How long before they find a reason to pull Tucker?
The voice of reason on US Cable, indeed all of US media.

roger white
roger white
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

What an excellent summary of where we are.

Sforzesca
Sforzesca
4 years ago

We are so far down the rabbit hole that what used to seem sensible no longer exists in Clown World.

Off with your head for having the temerity to even hint at such a possible and sensible solution. Why, it may even save countless more innocent lives.

Commie Putin loving *******.

Emerald Fox
4 years ago
Reply to  Sforzesca

“Smash the dirty red scum!” “Tea’s ready!” “Coming, Dear!”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuZ24VBrbO4

Arfur Mo
Arfur Mo
4 years ago
Reply to  Emerald Fox

Putin is at last the latest New Hitler (TM).

That’s really going to drive more Rusians to his side. The Russians lost ~27,000,000 to the Nazi forces in WWII. They still memorialise that on Victory Day in the form of massive parades of people in each urban center carrying an image of their dead relatives.

Star
4 years ago
Reply to  Arfur Mo

Putin’s image in the west is of no big import to Putin or other Russian strategists. It is pathetic when British journalists whose idea of a calamity is a trust fund payment arriving a day late scribble that “Putin has lost the information war”. They have no idea what they’re talking about.

186NO
186NO
4 years ago
Reply to  Arfur Mo

You have no inkling of what the Russians did to Poland’s population as they “marched” west from 1943 onwards, have you? I suggest you find out using your only eye to good effect.

How many did Stalin eliminate , pre war? How may Russian casualties were caused deliberately by ..Russians?

Gullible appeaser.

Star
4 years ago
Reply to  Emerald Fox

And people say “gammon” doesn’t exist. Suburbia is full of such people.

JXB
JXB
4 years ago
Reply to  Sforzesca

Rabbit hole – our ‘leaders’ have their heads up quite a different hole.

rtj1211
rtj1211
4 years ago

The outrage is entirely due to the media coverage.

Where is the outrage over what the West is doing in Yemen? Nowhere.

Where was the outrage over the genocide of Libya? Nowhere.

Where is the outrage over the USA stealing Syrian oil and funding terrorists? Nowhere.

Where is the outrage over repeated breaking of international law by Israel? Nowhere.

All the outrage has been whipped up by a media so amoral as to be laughable.

The West is full of credulous anti-intellectuals who still believe the never ending lies and propaganda of the Western Media.

If the West wants to live in peace with Russia, it has to break with the USA, disband NATO and stop appeasing the genocidal psychopaths who run the USA (but never stand for election) and inflict genocides on the world far, far more often than the Russians have since 1991.

What is wrong with the UK and Europe that they continue to delude themselves that the USA is anything but a mafia mobster??

Cristi.Neagu
4 years ago
Reply to  rtj1211

It is clear that the globalists had interests in Ukraine that were disturbed when Russia invaded. The only other times I have seen this amount of exposure and vitriol aimed at a topic in the media is when they’re talking about Trump or about covid realists. It’s clear that this is just another psyop campaign designed to sway public opinion. Zelenskyy is Schwab’s stooge, just like Trudeau, Macron, and Arden, so it’s clear that the WEF had interests in there. We know about all the people in the US Democratic party that were conducting underhanded business in Ukraine. And then you have Switzerland, the most neutral country ever, jumping on the bandwagon without a second thought. The more you look into it, the more it stinks. Either way, I still think that Putin’s decision to invade was not warranted. But it’s not like Russia is the bad guy and the West is a the good guy. They’re all bad. Everyone in NATO knew that if they keep courting Ukraine, Putin will not like it. Trump knew that he will attack. Everyone knew this, but they gambled with people’s lives that Putin is all words and no game. They were wrong… Read more »

CynicalRealist
4 years ago
Reply to  Cristi.Neagu

It is clear that the globalists had interests in Ukraine that were disturbed when Russia invaded.

It could be that, but equally it could simply be that they needed something to distract the western public from the collapsing Covidian narrative and this fitted the bill nicely.

Cristi.Neagu
4 years ago
Reply to  CynicalRealist

Yes, that is a real possibility. Or it may be both. They’re not mutually exclusive.

Hypatia
Hypatia
4 years ago
Reply to  Cristi.Neagu

I think it’s both.

John Dee
4 years ago
Reply to  CynicalRealist

It’ll be fun if Putin releases details of any illegal bio-lab activities that Gates and Fauci had going on in sunny Ukraine.

Star
4 years ago
Reply to  John Dee

Am not sure that’s likely, but I could envisage the Russian state delivering a huge “son of Panama Papers” type of release that exposes the sh*t out of large numbers of corrupt politicians and government figures in Britain, France, and Germany – maybe out of some royal and armed forces figures too. Blam!

Raising the game from Panama – an info first strike with a new weapon – no c*cking about by the Guardian and the New York Times this time, no re-run of Wikileaks, no Woodward and Bernstein imitators, but complete with killer video, audio, and documents such that the basic idea – the utmost corruption, utter disregard for human life, profit before everything, fully conscious kleptocracy – cannot be denied, cannot usefully be defended against with “let’s have an enquiry under a lord”.

Menckenitis
4 years ago
Reply to  John Dee
Star
4 years ago
Reply to  CynicalRealist

I look at the relationship between the Covid play and the outbreak of war slightly differently:

  • 1. The Covid play was a softening up, in preparation for a huge global attack on living standards and population size that will have war as one of its aspects. That was always in the plan.
  • 2. It was also a drill.
  • 3. Now they are advancing on the basis of what they achieved with the Covid play.
  • 4. There will be more.
jennyw
4 years ago
Reply to  Cristi.Neagu

Zelenskyy and Putin both are in the same club party of the World Economic Forum.

The new normal and Great Reset is occurring in Russia at full swing as well, despite some people thinking Putin is somehow fending off Schwab and Co.

https://off-guardian.org/2021/11/16/myth-vs-reality-in-covid-russia/

Draper233
4 years ago
Reply to  jennyw

That possibility has to be kept on the table.

But is it not also possible that Putin was practising one of Russia’s finest arts – the double bluff – and stringing Schwab and Co along all the time?

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  jennyw

Not proven.

Arfur Mo
Arfur Mo
4 years ago
Reply to  jennyw

Putin attended one meeting, then nothing for many years until his final one saying ‘get stuffed you fascists’ – or words to that effect.

paul smith
4 years ago
Reply to  jennyw

Were‘ in the same club; the Schwabians gave Putin his walking papers this past week. Probably even took away his access to the no doubt sumptuous club loo.

Emerald Fox
4 years ago
Reply to  paul smith

Makes you wonder why Putin can’t drop a nuke on Schwab’s house.

John Dee
4 years ago
Reply to  jennyw

Can’t see why Putin would buy into all that if his reputed 200 billion fortune is in any way close to being true.

Star
4 years ago
Reply to  jennyw

How many army divisions has Schwab got again?

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  Cristi.Neagu

“Either way, I still think that Putin’s decision to invade was not warranted”.

So what would you expect him to do? He has already waited nearly 8 years and has got nowhere as they bombarded civilians in Donbas and even, it now seems, built Biowarfare labs near his border.

Cristi.Neagu
4 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

I would expect him to strengthen his border. And why would he attack a country because people there are being bombarded? He can always take them in as refugees.

Arfur Mo
Arfur Mo
4 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

The more crucial point is that during Minsk, the US, UK and Germany (a Minsk mediator) were actively training the whole Ukraine military bringing them up to NATO standards. This was clearly in anticipation of Ukraine joining NATO in contrast to the neutral state specified by Minsk. https://www.illiberalism.org/far-right-group-made-its-home-in-ukraines-major-western-military-training-hub/ All that remained in the way of NATO accession was the lack of border control. Hence the massive build up of troops near the breakway regions, combined with the massive supply of weapons by the US and UK in md January. The intent was clearly to break through and take control of the border. Once that was done, the treaty could be signed and Zelensky’s wish ‘I want nukes’ (echoed by Biden’s VP Harris ‘Give Ukraine nukes’) could be quickly granted by putting a nuke-ready Aegis Ashore system in place. There are already such systems in Poland and Romania. The one in Ukraine would be 5 minutes flight time to Moscow. So quite quickly, Russia would have a nuke-armed NATO state on its border, populated by murderous rabid Russophobes. This is the existential threat to Russia. Russia prempted this by recognising the two provinces, scuppering the border control issue and leading to… Read more »

Star
4 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

Source for the biowar labs thing please.

Stephensceptic
Stephensceptic
4 years ago
Reply to  Star

Russian War Ministry has published various documents now in Ukrainian. Claims being made that they are evidence of Biowar preparations. Various alleged labs have apparently been found.

I am not claiming it is true. Russia posts propaganda, just as the west does. Obviously.

This will play out over the next few days and it will be interesting to see if western media chooses to report it. My guess is that they will not.

Ruth Learner
Ruth Learner
4 years ago
Reply to  Star

Bio-Labs Busted! Nulandistan is over.

’There are biological research facilities in Ukraine, and we fear that Russia will take control over them’.
 
U.S. Deputy Secretary of State Victoria Nuland at a congressional hearing

any more proof of US interests and evidence of bio labs needed?

Menckenitis
4 years ago
Reply to  Star
Menckenitis
4 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton
Star
4 years ago
Reply to  Cristi.Neagu

Everyone in NATO knew that if they keep courting Ukraine, Putin will not like it. Trump knew that he will attack. Everyone knew this, but they gambled with people’s lives that Putin is all words and no game. They were wrong and the poor have paid with their lives.

They knew he’d attack. The NATO play was a provocation, as also very probably was the Moscow-Constantinople schism. They didn’t “gamble”. They may be more evil than you think.

Beowulf
Beowulf
4 years ago
Reply to  rtj1211

“Where is the outrage over repeated breaking of international law by Israel? Nowhere.”

If by breaking International law you mean defending itself, I think you’ll find outrage on the BBC, Channel4, The Guardian, the NYT etc. etc.

7941MHKB
7941MHKB
4 years ago
Reply to  Beowulf

Beowulf
Exactly right.

Interesting that whilst we go through another “wailing and gnashing of teeth exercise” by the beloved Media (accepting that Putin’s actions so far are indefensible), Dead Husk Biden & whoever is pulling his strings are ripping up each and every sanction imposed on the mad Ayatollahs in Iran and seem to have agreed in their manufacture of nuclear weapons after 2½ year. And ensuring plenty of money to finish the job.

You might reasonably doubt that Putin would be in a hurry to press the nuclear button. You might even give Kin Jong Un credit for having some idea how far he might go and still survive.

But the mad Mullahs who have sworn for 30 years to wipe Israel off the map? Meanwhile, Israel will live through a nightmare with more and more Iran sponsored terror on their borders.

No doubt Jezza, NYT & the BBC will be positively orgasmic at this betrayal.

Star
4 years ago
Reply to  7941MHKB

“Wipe off the map”? Like the Confederate States of America? And the German Third Reich?

7941MHKB
7941MHKB
4 years ago
Reply to  Star

I see antisemitism is your thing.

Another creature likening Israel to the Third Reich.

Disgraceful.

John Dee
4 years ago
Reply to  Beowulf

Indeed; one wonders how such outrage could have been missed.
If Israel farts, the Grauniad screams ‘germ warfare!’.

barbarbarbaudelaire
barbarbarbaudelaire
4 years ago
Reply to  rtj1211

It is a bad practice to let war win the day without imposing massive costs on the instigators. The US has paid for its stupidity over and over.

I have no real idea what is going on in Yemen and Libya. These seem to be violent countries. It makes no sense to intervene in things you don’t understand.

Yes, Ukranians are more like me. I am going to defend people I understand before inscrutable warlike strangers. And we made a commitment to Ukraine when they gave up nukes.

Rogerborg
4 years ago

Great to hear that you’re signing up. Let us know how that works out for you.

I mean, that is what you meant by “I am going to defend people”.

You’re not a hypocrite expecting someone else to spill their blood or spend their treasure on your behalf, of course.

barbarbarbaudelaire
barbarbarbaudelaire
4 years ago
Reply to  Rogerborg

I am 61 and in poor health or I would. I would be a burden and I doubt they’d want me. But I am a crackerjack programmer. I am investigating going principly as infrastructure. But I’d want a gun. I’d do what I could.

In my healthier years I was an armed defender in dangerous places.

I actually like Russian culture and I am not pleased to shoot at everyday Russians.

But your logic is weak. There are many ways to defend people. In fact, it would be my money since my taxes would be paying for it. This would be one rare example of them going to good use.

Calling people hypocrites or calling people Russian plants is one and the same thing: A flag of surrender in a rational argument. A tantrum.

Rogerborg
4 years ago

In my healthier years I was an armed defender in dangerous places.

Minecraft Hardcore mode?

John Dee
4 years ago

I would be a burden

Come, come… you could always stay back at HQ and organise the ammunition.

Mark
4 years ago

Unless you are unusual, Ukrainians are no more “like you” than Russians are. Or than Serbs were, for that matter.

And we made a commitment to Ukraine when they gave up nukes.”

Like the commitment we made to Russia not to push NATO eastwards, and the commitment we made to the world (more or less) not to wage illegal wars. But we ignored those commitments.

Likewise there have been numerous breaches by the Ukrainian regimes since then, that brought them to where we are now, from the US-backed coup that brought the nationalists to power to the outright contempt for the Minsk accords.

The Bucharest memorandum was as phony as the Ukraine’s “ownership” of the nuclear weapons it “gave up” (which had been left on its territory by the owners).

Mark
4 years ago

It is a bad practice to let war win the day without imposing massive costs on the instigators. The US has paid for its stupidity over and over.

Please, do let me know when you find out what “massive costs” were imposed on notorious instigators Clinton, Blair, Bush, Cameron, Obama,…

Here’s the price paid by Blair, who instigated (on behalf of the UK) two of the worst outright illegal wars of aggression in the past three decades:

United Kingdom Privy Councillor (1994)[46]
United States Congressional Gold Medal (2003)[272]
Honorary Doctor of Law (LLD) from Queen’s University Belfast (2008)
United States Presidential Medal of Freedom (2009)
Dan David Prize (2009)
United States Liberty Medal (2010)
Kosovo Order of Freedom (2010)
United Kingdom Knight Companion of the Order of the Garter (2022)

James Kreis
4 years ago
Reply to  rtj1211

With you all the way. NATO is a tool of US foreign policy and US foreign policy has been the greatest threat to peace since 1945.

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  James Kreis

Johnson is the biggest ‘tool’ of all!

John Dee
4 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

Yeah, but he knows Latin and Greek and stuff, so he must be intelligent really.

Emerald Fox
4 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

Thumbs up says The Bozzter!

thumbsup.jpg
David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  rtj1211

The MS media – now pure Evil!

Mark
4 years ago

“It seems to me the response of Ukraine and the West is being driven primarily by outrage – wholly understandable outrage that I share.” “Wholly understandable” if you ignore the realities of recent history. If you are “outraged” at this but not at the wars in Yugoslavia, Iraq, Libya and Syria, then your opinion can safely be ignored as either based upon ignorance or upon subjective and partisan assessments of the rationalisations given for these various wars. Rest assured, most of those driving the “outrage” are either fully and cynically aware of the history, or are just dupes for those people. Should we accept Russia’s terms? Yes, obviously. We need to address very serious problems in our own societies, beginning with the whipping up of hatred with manipulative lies that has brought us so close to war with Russia, and following that with addressing the fundamental dishonesty in our media and social media structures that has made us so vulnerable to these three moral panics, and will presumably keep us vulnerable to more such in the future. The answer is not more control of speech, it is freeing up speech. As Tucker observed, vitally: “if getting to the truth was… Read more »

barbarbarbaudelaire
barbarbarbaudelaire
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

“Should we accept Russia’s terms? Yes, obviously.” You are Ukranian?

Mark
4 years ago

We can only speak for what we think our government (“we”) should be doing. Inasmuch as “we” have inserted ourselves into the conflict by waging economic warfare against one side, yes, “we” should accept that side’s terms as reasonable and butt out.

In truth, the Ukraine has no agency in this – it’s the US regime that drives their choices, whatever the pretences might be.

barbarbarbaudelaire
barbarbarbaudelaire
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

My impression is that Biden wants them to give up. He encouraged the President to run. Just like he would hobble away from any situation requiring courage,

Is there a link or doc that lays out the US logic in Ukraine that goes beyond supposition?

Mark
4 years ago

“My impression is that Biden wants them to give up. He encouraged the President to run. Just like he would hobble away from any situation requiring courage,“ I don’t think Biden has any agency here. He’s clearly senile. Planning and strategy is in the hands of those around him and in the permanent Washington bureaucracy and power elites. The strategy appears to be to try to maintain a government in exile and create an endless quagmire for the Russians. But that’s only what seems apparent at the moment. There might be other intentions. “Is there a link or doc that lays out the US logic in Ukraine that goes beyond supposition?“ Not sure how specific you expect, but the 2008 Bucharest Summit announcement was the key declaration: NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO. We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO. Both nations have made valuable contributions to Alliance operations. We welcome the democratic reforms in Ukraine and Georgia and look forward to free and fair parliamentary elections in Georgia in May. MAP is the next step for Ukraine and Georgia on their direct way to membership. Today we make clear that we support these countries’ applications… Read more »

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago

Biden just wants to know where the “rest room” is.

Draper233
4 years ago

I was encouraged to see the crazy “no fly zone” suggestion instantly dismissed by the US/NATO, particularly because there appears to be strong popular support for this measure:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/7/russia-ukraine-what-is-no-fly-zone-why-has-nato-said-no

The fact that this measure would almost certainly lead to WW3 is testament to how brainwashed the masses are.

It would seem that at least some realpolitik is kicking in within the West’s deep state.

Arfur Mo
Arfur Mo
4 years ago
Reply to  Draper233

People have no idea what a no fly zone actually means. In this case it would mean suppressing the ability of any and all military aircraft to operate out of any airbase or improvised facility in Russia. Total destruction of all aircraft, all airfields, all radar systems, all munitions stores, all fuel stores, etc, etc.

Don’t even think about it, unless you want your family to have a quick, instant suntan.

Steve-Devon
4 years ago

Wow, great article, I have just been riding home on my bike and was pondering similar thoughts. Crimea has been ‘de-facto’ Russian since 2014 and nobody has felt driven to do anything about it and so it seem to be formally agreeing the obvious. Some of the disputed regions of East Ukraine were mining areas and some of the Russian speakers there were drafted in for mining work during the Soviet era. And so you could argue that they are hang-over problems from the Soviet era which are overdue for some sort of resolution.
As for NATO and Ukraine well other,s like Peter Hitchens, can argue this issue better than me.
And so I feel this article makes a good point, yes Putin is a barbaric, unspeakable monster who has unleashed appalling terror and horror but we need a workable solution. What concerns me is that nobody in the West is looking to be a broker for any sort of peace deal, it is as if there is some sort of drive by the west to push forward with war for ends I find hard to fathom.

barbarbarbaudelaire
barbarbarbaudelaire
4 years ago

Will’s argument would be more convincing if he were honest about the commitment we made to protect Ukraine when we got it to abandon its nuclear weapons. It’s an inconvenient fact but we shouldn’t promise what we won’t do. What about the next time we want to convince someone to disarm?

Mutually assured destruction worked in much more complicated situations. Why do we think, of all the other nuclear armed belligerents Putin is going to want to destroy his family and his country? Unlikely.

Russia is presenting terms nearing reasonable. Russian people and their language should be protected in Ukraine. Russia has Crimea, there isn’t much to do about it. Maybe the other breakaways should be semi-autonomous. But Ukraine will get much better terms if its allies weren’t too cowardly to fight anyone besides underarmed medieval folks. And we ARE allies as a result of the nuke removal.

What about the precious money? Selling honor for money is an ugly thing. If we weren’t corrupt to the bones we would take it back from the covid profiteers in any case.

Beowulf
Beowulf
4 years ago

The UK didn’t make a commitment to protect the Ukraine from anyone but itself. See The Budapest Memorandum.

The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defence or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.

The UK is no more an ally of the Ukraine than Russia is.

FrankFisher
4 years ago

The commitment we made was to defend Ukraine if it was threatened with nuclear weapons.

Rogerborg
4 years ago

We committed to protecting it against nuclear aggression.

Lies weaken you.

John Dee
4 years ago

the commitment we made to protect Ukraine when we got it to abandon its nuclear weapons.

How about the commitment we made not to attack Iraq if Saddam had no WMD? Whoops: got that one wrong, didn’t we?

Stephensceptic
Stephensceptic
4 years ago

They never had operational ability to use nuclear weapons. Just inherited kit from the Soviets.

A large part of what allegedly drove the invasion was Zelensky stating at the Munich Security Conference that Ukraine could obtain nuclear weapons. No western power disabused this notion. Combining that with the prospect of de jure and not just de facto NATO membership led Putin to act.

Putin claims that a Ukraine armed with nuclear weapons plus the NATO mutual assistance guarantee could threaten Crimea and Russia would be unable to stop that. He claims that this was an overall existential threat to Russia and that meant he had to carry out what he calls special military operations.

greggsy01
greggsy01
4 years ago

Media once again has failed the public. By perpetuating emotionally charged and one sided view of the issue, so far it has only made things worse for ordinary Ukrainians in the first place. Whether it is simply unprofessional or if there is a sinister motive, not sure. western foreign policy response has been nothing short of a disaster and will soon probably be a pure humiliation when Russia finish what they set out to do.

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  greggsy01

The MS Media doesn’t serve the public – it serves the Globalist Cabal -its paymasters!

Cecil B
Cecil B
4 years ago

Those who invented, managed and perpetuated the fraud will get to write the history of the fraud.

The history will reveal that it wasn’t a fraud at all

TheGreenGoblin
TheGreenGoblin
4 years ago
Reply to  Cecil B

Please make Orwell fiction again

Draper233
4 years ago
Reply to  TheGreenGoblin

I think the last two years have shown what an off-the-chart genius Orwell really was.

Arfur Mo
Arfur Mo
4 years ago
Reply to  Draper233

Orwell and Mengele separately look back from their graves and realise they were mere amateurs.

Rogerborg
4 years ago

Yes, they should say that they accept it, with every appearance of sincerity, while not halting fighting.

Same as Putin will talk peace while continuing his own military encroachments.

If they haven’t learned that from NATO in the past couple of decades, it’s not for lack of being given lessons.

FrankFisher
4 years ago

Putin wants what ukraine, US and EU agreed to decades ago. No NATO in Ukraine, and Ukraine to be independent. I don’t call US/Soros funded coups “independence”.

John001
John001
4 years ago
Reply to  FrankFisher

Austria became neutral in 1955, being in a right mess at the time (it was called the Austrian State Treaty.) Think of a name for this one and get on with it …

Neutral countries can still be democracies, have elections and eventually join the EU … as Austria and Finland did. The difference is that these countries were obliged by other countries to become non-aligned to contribute to European stability.

I think NATO expansion into the countries bordering Russia contributed to European *in*stability.

Proveritate
4 years ago

Zelensky not willing to discuss the status of the disputed territories?

We can discuss and find a compromise on the points about the temporarily occupied territories and unrecognized republics, which are not recognized by anyone except the Russian Federation…What’s important to me is how the people in those territories who want to be part of Ukraine are going to live…[It] is more difficult than simply acknowledging them.

Zelensky not willing to consider ruling out NATO membership?

I lost interest in this issue after we realized that NATO is not ready to accept Ukraine.

Maybe the West are trying to put words into Zelensky’s mouth, but these are the words of the man himself.

Mark
4 years ago
Reply to  Proveritate

Zelensky was elected on the basis that he would be a moderate candidate towards the Russian speakers. That’s not how he governed.

Either he was always just a lying placeman for his oligarch backer, or it was quickly made clear to him by the nationalist ultras that doing so would be terminally bad for his health.

Either way, his words are of little value. As far as actual policy is concerned, pre-invasion, the reality was as described by Mearsheimer:

In the fall of last year, 2021, it began to ramp up, and of course early this year…it became a full blown crisis. And the question that we want to ask ourselves is: what happened here? Why all of a sudden did this crisis go from the back burner to the front burner? And the answer is that the US and its allies were effectively turning Ukraine into a de facto member of NATO

https://youtu.be/Nbj1AR_aAcE?t=785

Proveritate
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

You may think his words are of little value, but they are his words and (as is rather obvious from the UK government’s position that they will ‘never’ recognize the annexation of Crimea) they don’t comport with the position the West expects him to parrot.

On the face of it, Zelensky’s position is more realistic than that of the UK and US governments. The status of Crimea and the Donbass are negotiable: he wants guarantees for the Ukrainian population, and I would not be suprised if he wants compensation for the warships that Russia purloined. Neither is he averse to ruling out NATO membership (it is NATO who are averse to ruling out applications).

Draper233
4 years ago
Reply to  Proveritate

I think Zelensky and the Ukrainian government hold the keys to the solution here, because both the West and Russia have doubled down and can’t be seen to lose face (which is a calamitous/planned situation for the West IMO).

However the above is only true on the premise that Zelensky and the Ukrainian government are not simply US/NATO/neo-Nazi puppets, to which I have seen little or no evidence to the contrary.

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

“Got elected” We need to re-examine that ‘election ‘ in the light of ‘USA 2020’.

Arfur Mo
Arfur Mo
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Zelensky is owned by a Ukrainian oligarch, and is under the thumb of the neo-Nazis. These neo-Nazis were once just muscle for this oligarch but have morhed into something bigger than the president and the real army (not numerically but in terms of raw power).

B.F.Finlayson
4 years ago
Reply to  Proveritate

Maybe the West are trying to put words into Zelensky’s mouth

With or without a script Zelensky has nothing to say, as he proves every day. The fact his scripts are penned by several different authors, often with contrary views, bothers him not one bit. He dutifully learns his few lines, delivers them in the manner of a Soap extra, and goes back to dreaming of his $37m home on Florida where he can put his feet up again when the filming is finally over. Unlike the people of the Donbass.

Proveritate
4 years ago
Reply to  B.F.Finlayson

Very cynical. But when the real negotiations come, as presumably they will unless Russia is to annex the whole of Ukraine, then the script he reads from is going to commit the country – it won’t be just for the cameras.

B.F.Finlayson
4 years ago
Reply to  Proveritate

There have already been 3 rounds of negotiations, the most recent (ended today) regarding the establishment of safe humanitarian corridors. Problem is while Russia’s delegation is able to agree terms and sign legal papers to make undertakings binding in the field, the Ukrainian delegation comprises more puppets who have to take everything back to the puppetmeisters. Meanwhile the Ukrainian nationalist militias are still holding civilians as human shields and shooting at those who attempt to leave cities.
Ukraine is a corrupt US proxy. It is the US (as we have seen from 2014 with the bio-weapon labs etc) that will dictate the agenda entirely, and that doesn’t require Zelensky’s input. From being the centre of the European slave trade to hosting murderous quasi-autonomous Nazi militia to facilitating the kind of dodgy deals that made Hunter Biden a fortune – not to mention having the lowest GDP in Europe – Ukraine is certainly a shining beacon of democracy. Even now, some western EU countries are getting cold feet over fast tracking Ukrainian EU membership.

John001
John001
4 years ago
Reply to  B.F.Finlayson

It seems to have taken Finland and Austria nearly 40 years from becoming non-aligned to actually joining the EU (1995). That might be a good basis for negotiation, unless Ukraine rapidly becomes a beacon of democracy (oh dear, I hear sounds of hollow laughter…)

Proveritate
4 years ago
Reply to  John001

It seems to have taken Finland and Austria nearly 40 years from becoming non-aligned to actually joining the EU (1995).

Well, Finland was going to be non-aligned for as long as there was a cold war on, so that 40 years is irrelevant. A better indication of how they liked non-aligned status is the time it took from having to be non-aligned for Finland to apply for accession to the EU.

The Soviet Union dissolved on December 26, 1991. Finland applied for EU membership in March 1992, less than three months later.

No rush then.

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  B.F.Finlayson

The negotiations are a fake -the Russians are sincere – the Ukrainians have been told by their CIA Minders to just play around – as is very obvious.

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  Proveritate

He will be in jail by then.

NeilofWatford
4 years ago

Yes, I think so.
Expectations for a Ukrianian military victory (or even less likely, NATO support) are misplaced.
This is the best offer Ukraine will get, and whilst brutal, must be accepted for the sake of its people.

Stephensceptic
Stephensceptic
4 years ago
Reply to  NeilofWatford

I agree.

In the absence of actual and hoped for western intervention, Ukraine would have already made peace on the basis of Putin’s demands. They would have seen that there is no other choice and the demands on the face of it are not so unreasonable.

The west is prolonging the conflict and it does seem as though Zelensky is really a puppet of the US. In the long run, he is not doing a service for his country.

JamesM
JamesM
4 years ago

In answer to the question posed at the top of the article, I would say: yes. Ramping up the anti-Russian rhetoric and supplying further arms to Ukraine will only prolong the war, with more people killed and maimed, more houses destroyed and more people displaced as refugees. Furthermore, if this war escalates, the entire population of the UK is at risk of annihilation. The war mongering is madness. Putin is not Stalin and the terms offered seem eminently reasonable to me, particularly if a majority of people in the Crimea and the breakaway republics wish to be part of the Russian Federation. Better to pursue peace than war.

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  JamesM

” Ramping up the anti-Russian rhetoric and supplying further arms to Ukraine will only prolong the war, with more people killed and maimed, more houses destroyed and more people displaced as refugees.”

But then this is blatantly obviously exactly what the US Deep State and the CIA want – and it seems so do Johnson,Truss, Starmer and the whole UK Parliament as well!

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

They’re not in charge here, Putin is.

Once he achieves his objective of occupying the land he wants he’ll stand down. There is nothing to be gained by him going any further. He can’t invade NATO countries and he knows it.

Then the negotiations will begin and he’ll still have the upper hand with gas and coal supplies to Europe.

Once the shooting’s over the west will have no choice but to back down.

Once occupied the weapons the west has provided to Ukraine, anti tank ordnance principally, will be virtually useless as any further violence will be street fighting and Javelins aren’t nearly as effective there. He’ll also have air superiority so everything will be pinned down.

He also has plenty more troops and equipment he can ship out if the invasion stalls and there’s not a single thing the west can do about it.

Bella Donna
4 years ago

Sanctions are an act of war, as is providing armaments to the neo nazis in Ukraine so forgive me if I don’t accept the West not being at war with Russia – they have done everything they can to escalate it.

leek
4 years ago
Reply to  Bella Donna

The words neo nazi really have been made popular amongst these circles.

So is that all Ukranians?

ImpObs
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

Ask the BBC TORCH-LIT MARCH IN KIEV BY UKRAINE’S RIGHT-WING SVOBODA PARTY – BBC NEWS https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHhGEiwCHZE Ukraine: On patrol with the far-right National Militia – BBC Newsnight https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hE6b4ao8gAQ The far-right group threatening to overthrow Ukraine’s government – Newsnight https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEKQsnRGv7s Or ask Victoria Nuland Nuland admits to neo Nazis in Ukraine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxYnZNIUoDg Or learn some history Ukraine has a chequered history, many of the people worked with the Nazis during WWII to fight against the Russians. But why were there so many Nazis in the Ukraine? Michael Buergermeister in his letter from Vienna #32 quotes Webster Tarpley “The main impulse behind Ukrainian independence came from the German general staff and its cynical geopolitical machinations during World War I. The German general staff transported Lenin back to Russia from Switzerland, had Hitler on its payroll, and also called modern Ukraine into existence.” “…the Germans…identified about 50,000…POWs who based on their birthplaces and dialect might be convinced to become Ukrainians, separated out the officers and sergeants, and put the remaining proto-Ukrainians in special re-education camps. These proto-Ukrainians were exempted from work, given better treatment, and put into classrooms, where they were given intensive courses in Ukrainian national identity, farming techniques, and the need… Read more »

ImpObs
4 years ago
Reply to  ImpObs

During this time Yanukovychs political party was banned, opposition MPs were arrested, opposing journalists were murdered, TV stations who opposed the new regime were taken off air. Neo-Nazi groups, sanctioned by the state, openly policed public areas carrying baseball bats. These groups, sanction by the new regime, carried out a number of Roma pograms that carry on today assisted by local police and administrators: http://www.errc.org/news/anti-roma-pogroms-in-ukraine-on-c14-and-tolerating-terror Subsequent elections were marred by this controversy, with multiple MPs openly voting twice in place of the arrested MPs. Evidence of this is documented in this short 15 minute film from 2014 exposing the Maiden Revolution as state sanctioned openly Nazi putch backed by the US. 9 facts that prove the U S is behind Ukraine crisis https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZiJRnaom_E The IMF offered a loan to the new Ukraine regime, conditional on the regime ending the civil unrest from demonstrators who refused to recognise the new regime calling them puppets of the United States Government. The deal was signed on May 1st 2014. It is no coincidence that the Maidan Revolution ended on May 2nd 2014, after the atrocities of the Trade Union House, where officially it is reported 42 people were horribly murdered by Neo-Nazi groups,… Read more »

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  ImpObs

Far too much “inconvenient Ukraine truth’ here for the crazies advocating war with Russia (Oh – that’s just our MS Media and entire political class then!)

Arfur Mo
Arfur Mo
4 years ago
Reply to  ImpObs

The ‘Roses have Thorns’ Episode (6) Odessa maassacre does a compehensive reconstruction through synchronisation of masses of published videos.

ImpObs
4 years ago
Reply to  Arfur Mo

Thanks for that, the spin put on it by the MSM was disgusting, now I’ll have to watch the whole series!

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

Purely descriptive of ……er…”Neo Nazis” wearing SS insignia on uniforms and blazoned on their flags and advocting “ethnic cleansing”.

What would you call them?

Arfur Mo
Arfur Mo
4 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

Some of the worst are fully tattooed with swastikas and other significant symbology.

Bolloxed Britannia
Bolloxed Britannia
4 years ago

WOW! Without doubt, possibly the most CRETINOUS and factually, historically incorrect article this site has ever produced! Pick a book up Will, better still, listen to Alex Thomson on the subject… Education awaits.

Proveritate
4 years ago

This tells us absolutely nothing about what you disagree with and why.

Draper233
4 years ago

In the current MSM climate, the article is practically heresy!

And it’s sceptical to the mainstream narrative – which is what this website purports to be.

Lucan Grey
4 years ago

The West’s outrage can be seen in the nonsense spouted about oil and gas today. Oil and gas are real thing without which we don’t have an economy. We cannot replace the Russian output in any meaningful way and those suggesting we can are just wanting to believe *really hard*. Generally it involves the same Green waffle that has got us into this state in the first place. Russia has no need to export oil and gas, because there is now nothing real available to exchange it for. The people working in the oil and gas industry can be redeployed repairing the Russian war machine. After all there’s not a lot of difference between a pipe and a barrel. Russia’s internal economy will continue to operate entirely detached from the rest of the world because they have their own currency, and are self-sufficient in all the natural resources they require. We, of course, only make 55% of our own food, and will be struggling for fertiliser, made from gas, because our government is stuffed full of people with their head in the clouds. It won’t be Russia that is in for a surprise this year. They never lost their hard… Read more »

Draper233
4 years ago
Reply to  Lucan Grey

I was looking at the prices of commodities last night, all of which have rocketed – some to unprecedented highs.

Surely a serious humanitarian disaster is on the cards if this continues much longer.

But if it’s all part of the Great Reset agenda then the plan appears to be working well.

greggsy01
greggsy01
4 years ago

close your eyes, close your ears and scream as loud as you can “Putin and Russians go away”. that the west’s response so far. and if you don’t do that or even if you question it, you’ll be cancelled.

B.F.Finlayson
4 years ago

Should (the violent and corrupt US installed neo-Nazi puppet government of) Ukraine Accept Putin’s Terms of Peace? There, I fixed the headline for you. Outrage. No, just carefully calculated pro-fascist globalist hypocrisy. A bit like Covid really. Putin has just invaded a sovereign nation for no other reason (if he is to be believed) than to take territory off it and impose an unwanted political neutrality upon it. Where to start unpicking such rhetoric? None of the DS editorial team has the slightest intention of viewing this rationally, so its pointless going on. If you refuse to look at the years from 2014 in which the Donbass suffered heavy shelling (14,000 dead) from an openly Nazi Ukrainian military then your opinion fails straight away. Perhaps look at the 2014 Maidan in context of the 2008 agreements while you are on? Just like the life damaging EGT treatments that you turned a blind eye to last year, DS has got this call badly wrong again. You all refuse to get your heads out of a good guy/bad guy narrative. Consequently ATL has become a parotting of MSM psy-op hysteria, while agreeing with the economic dismemberment of a sovereign country that no… Read more »

GlassHalfFull
4 years ago
Reply to  B.F.Finlayson

You saved me writing it.

B.F.Finlayson
4 years ago
Reply to  GlassHalfFull

LOL!

PhantomOfLiberty
PhantomOfLiberty
4 years ago

Long, detailed appraisal of Ukraine by Archbishop Vigano (odd morsel of theology but mostly documentation). https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/abp-vigano-globalists-have-fomented-war-in-ukraine-to-establish-the-tyranny-of-the-new-world-order/

Hopeless - "TN,BN"
4 years ago

We’ll know where we are when British police cars are painted yellow and blue.

As much as we loathe the actions of Putin, there are very sound reasons for him deciding to do as he has; whether we agree or not. The reaction in the West is yet another outbreak of mass hysteria, whipped up by politicians, the media and the chattering classes, and like BLM and aspects of Covid, it has fashionable and woke undertones and overtones. I don’t recollect this level of interest and outrage when the Taliban retook Afghanistan, and the total lack of outrage and disgust at the actions of Trudeau, Macron, and all the other tinpot dictators and tyrants worldwide is remarkable.

LMS2
4 years ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkaW-K0Lz8A
Ben Affleck Made Me Leave the Left w/ Dave Rubin
“Matt asks Dave Rubin why he dedicated his book “Don’t Burn This Book” to Ben Affleck. Dave describes a now-famous moment on Bill Maher’s show when Ben Affleck blew up on the host and started shouting “Racist.” Rubin says it opened his eyes to how the Left explodes whenever you try to talk about topics they don’t agree with.”

Short video, 5 mins. Worth a quick watch to hear how Dave Rubin describes what he saw with Bill Maher, Ben Affleck and Sam Harris. Harris and Maher were having a reasonable and civilised discussion when Affleck blew up.

What we’re witnessing whenever we ask why we’re not doing everything we can to stop the fighting and broker a peace between Ukraine and Russia is the equivalent of Ben Affleck having a hysterical hissyfit over something he doesn’t want to hear. It’s non-stop weeping and wailing about the poor Ukrainians (and I’m not saying that they don’t deserve our sympathy), and a constant ratcheting up of the rhetoric. It’s taking us into a very, very dangerous place.

GlassHalfFull
4 years ago

I’m not the least bit “outraged” as I fully understand why Russia was forced into action.

I’ve been studying world affairs for the past 40 years and there is always at least two sides to any argument or conflict.

The current MSM reporting is as hysterical as their reporting of Covid and is riddled with lies, propaganda and deliberate omissions of the truth.

Stephensceptic
Stephensceptic
4 years ago
Reply to  GlassHalfFull

I agree. And whether Russia is right or wrong there are only three options:

  1. Carry on what we are doing – emoting and prolonging the war without really doing anything to win it for Ukraine
  2. Escalate the war to try to win it – with the obvious risk of a nuclear WW3 erupting
  3. Negotiate on the basis of Putin’s demands – and add some extra red line around no further aggression etc.

Option 1 can easily morph into option 2 and in any event will end up with Ukraine becoming a failed state.

What worries me most is that no one in the MSM (except Peter Hitchens, Tucker Carlson and very few others) and the political class is articulating anything like this. When you listen to Putin and Lavrov translated into English they come across as far more rational than our politicians. Not necessarily morally right but certainly more logical.

CovidiotAntiMasker
CovidiotAntiMasker
4 years ago
Reply to  Stephensceptic

Unfortunately our strangely woke, childishly emotive political class seem to think the likes of Peter Hitchens hold unpalatable views aimed at a declining fringe audience and should be ignored.

LMS2
4 years ago

“As far back as 2016, Lindsey Graham of South Carolina— hysterical little Lindsey Graham— was jumping around, acting out his war fantasies in front of foreign soldiers in Ukraine. If we saw this tape at the time, we don’t remember seeing it – back in 2016, Ukraine seemed like a faraway place. We should have paid more attention.  SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: Your fight is our fight. 2017 will be the year of offense. All of us will go back to Washington and we will push the case against Russia. Enough of … Russian aggression. It is time for them to pay a heavier price.  “Your fight is our fight.” That’s a very strange thing for an American lawmaker to say to a foreign military. Why would the Ukrainian government’s fight in 2016 possibly be our fight? On what grounds is it our fight? What does that even mean? We don’t know. And yet now it is demonstrably true. Ukraine’s fight is our fight. Ukraine’s war is our war. It’s here, but most Americans did not see that coming—yet permanent Washington certainly did. Here’s the president of the August Council on Foreign Relations on the day of the invasion.   RICHARD HAASS: We need now… Read more »

WM
WM
4 years ago
Reply to  LMS2

Yes. Outrage is not driving this war. Outrage is being used to maintain support for this war. The neocons in the US government want this war and they want it to continue until Russia is under US control due to a governmental collapse. I’m sure the globalists have already set up their bets to profit off the economic damage and the war will be used to implement more aspects of the great reset. Everybody wins except for the Ukrainians, the Russians, and pretty much everybody else.

LMS2
4 years ago

https://thefederalist.com/2022/03/04/nato-involvement-in-ukraine-could-spark-nuclear-genocide-heres-how-it-could-happen/
NATO Intervention In Ukraine Could Spark Nuclear War. Here’s How It Could Happen

Dr_Frost
Dr_Frost
4 years ago

“My good friends, for the second time in our history, a British Prime Minister has returned from Germany bringing peace with honour. I believe it is peace for our time. We thank you from the bottom of our hearts. Go home and get a nice quiet sleep”

Anyone who believes that Russian thinking is rational, or will stop when their initial demands are met – is either a lunatic or “useful idiot”.

Read some Central & Eastern Europe history (but not that shat served in UK schools!) and maybe you will get a grip on why dealing with Russia is always a bad idea. Even on a geopolitical level…

Draper233
4 years ago
Reply to  Dr_Frost

The “demands” being made by Russia seem to be no different to what they’ve been trying to negotiate for the last eight years.

You ought to be far more concerned about whether US & the West’s thinking is rational because it certainly hasn’t been over the last two years (and counting).

ImpObs
4 years ago
Reply to  Dr_Frost

another one joined today just to post that…

looks suspiciously like we’re being infiltrated by sock puppets!

Fireweasel
Fireweasel
4 years ago

It’s absolutely dreadful what the West, particularly the United States, has been doing in Ukraine.   The United States had biolabs operating in the Ukraine, all of which were under the full control of the Pentagon and staffed by NATO personnel. If you want to search online for these, in some instances biolabs are known as virological laboratories.   These biolabs were US military installations, and as such were operating in Ukraine illegally, because the Ukrainian constitution bans foreign powers from setting up military bases and installations on its territory.   Furthermore, the United States made a commitment in the Budapest Memorandum (1994) to NOT use economic pressure to influence Ukrainian policy, and to NOT have a military presence in Ukraine.   In 2017 Russia made complaints about US personnel collecting genomic data from Russian citizens. The response to this was that the Department of Molecular Biology, which is closely associated with the US Air Force 59th Medical Wing, revealed that it had indeed collected Russian RNA samples, but claimed they did so only for everyday medical research purposes.   The fear for Russia was that the US was using its biolabs in Ukraine to research and develop bioweapons that… Read more »

Proveritate
4 years ago
Reply to  Fireweasel

An amazing event occurred in Ukraine on the 24 February which should have been all over the world’s media. On this date the Russian military destroyed the US Naval Operations Centre in Ochakov, Ukraine.

Whilst the Americans helped Ukraine erect some small buildings in Ochakiv (the US government allocated $750,000 to this), what evidence is there that it was a ‘US Naval Operations Centre’ rather than a Ukrainian one?

Article 17 of Ukraine’s constitution disbars any new foreign military bases in Ukraine.

What evidence do you have that there were US personnel permanently based at Ochakiv? Residents of Ochakiv say there aren’t any.

I’m not saying you are wrong, just being naturally sceptical in the absence of solid evidence.

Fireweasel
Fireweasel
4 years ago
Reply to  Proveritate

“Residents of Ochakiv say there aren’t any.”

You make it sound like you’ve just spoken to the residents there. As for your query, did you check the information that is linked to in the comment? If you follow these links to the respectable publications, you’ll find the destinations have links to yet further information.

As you’ll appreciate, that adds up to a lot of information which I couldn’t possibly copy and paste on here for your benefit.  

Proveritate
4 years ago
Reply to  Fireweasel

Yes, I have.

In respect of the one link you gave on Ochakiv, to an Italian blog post by Maurizio Blondet, he provides no evidence that there was a US Naval Operations Centre there. He says the US describes it as a Naval Operations Centre: well, it is, and has been for hundreds of years. Like Portsmouth or Chatham. He quotes politikus.ru, which hosts a lot of Russian propaganda, not a ‘respectable publication’, which is also not an appropriate appellation for the blog by Maurizio Blondet. Politikus.ru says ‘Most likely, NATO instructors died’. That’s not information, that’s speculation.

Fireweasel
Fireweasel
4 years ago
Reply to  Proveritate

Call the BBC or the Guardian, they’ll give you all the evidence you want. 

Proveritate
4 years ago
Reply to  Fireweasel

No thanks, I’d only get propaganda from them. But your source, politikus.ru, is no better. And as you haven’t supplied any evidence to back up your claim, though I’ve requested it, it remains not only unsubstantiated but unlikely.

leek
4 years ago

If Ukraine accepted the Russian terms, some questions arise.

  1. What is the chance of Russia adhering to the terms, in the short term?
  2. What is the chance of Russia keeping to its captured territory in the medium term?
  3. What does a defenceless Ukraine do if Russia decides to invade again.
  4. Should the west pretend that it never happened and go back to normal relationship?
  5. Who should pay to rebuild Ukraine?
  6. Should the war crime investigations continue.

The list goes on and on….

Julian
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

Feel free to make a list of “leek strategy for the Ukraine crisis”

leek
4 years ago
Reply to  Julian

Well it starts with think carefully about what might happen down the line.

The key thing is to think, rather than get your opinions from some other people, you have never met.

Julian
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

So I guess you’ve thought about this and…?

Beowulf
Beowulf
4 years ago
Reply to  Julian

I think you might have guessed wrongly, leek is just following orders unquestioningly, from his CO in the 77th.

Lucan Grey
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

All of which boils down to the following:

  1. Who is going to stop him? Whose sons and fathers are we going to send into battle to die?

The Russians have an answer for that. We don’t.

And that’s why Putin can do as he pleases.

leek
4 years ago
Reply to  Lucan Grey

And that’s why Putin can do as he pleases.”

Not really a strategy.

leek
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

Has anybody thought about these issues?

Beowulf
Beowulf
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

Have you?

Draper233
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

Yes, complex isn’t it? Which is why these matters could and should have been taken care of over the last eight years.

You certainly can’t argue that Russia hasn’t been highlighting it.

If we let the adults back into the room then there’s still a chance an agreement can be reached.

Ruling out a no-fly zone was at least a first step.

MikeAustin
4 years ago

As opposed to the so-called ‘covid pandemic’ and the over-arching countermeasures, I have no idea what is going on 1,000s of miles away in Ukraine. I do now know that our government and mainstream media are unreliable and untrustworthy. And I find it telling that Russian opinion (e.g. via RT) is cancelled in this country.
When Will says that “the response of Ukraine and the West is being driven primarily by outrage“, I would question what is driving the outrage. Surely this would be more of a primary driver?
What we have seen over various scenarios – climate, covid, Ukraine – is an obvious ramping up of public emotions based on lop-sided viewpoints. This, together with a cancelling of opposing views without debate is sinister. I see a worried public, stressed, anxious, fearful and blindly following the mainstream narratives. This does seem to be a pattern. One naturally becomes suspicious that this is intentional.
When we have articles on Daily Sceptic that buy into the lop-sided presentations of government and mainstream media, I do wonder whether the title Daily Complicit might be more apt.

leek
4 years ago
Reply to  MikeAustin

Best abbreviated to
I have no idea what is going on”

If you take away the lop-sided articles on this site, there will be nothing left.

Beowulf
Beowulf
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

Do you do stand up?

Draper233
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

I’m still waiting for your first worthwhile contribution.

Matt Mounsey
Matt Mounsey
4 years ago

We need an emotional incontinence test (TM) before anyone can be allowed to vote.

We can’t have matters of geopolitics, national security and public health dictated any more by people who just form into whatever emotional mass the corporate media throw at them. I’m sorry, but this will mean a lot of women and young people will just have to keep trying to pass the test by getting control over themselves. It will also mean that a lot of stupid men who’ve never gotten into a fight before don’t start puffing themselves up and pretend they have a clue about war or military strategy.

And please don’t tell me that the over-emotional have some advantage over those with reason and insight. There’s no such thing as Emotional Intelligence or whatever other nonsense you come up with. People who feel will always be at a disadvantage to people who think and always be manipulated by people who think about how they feel.

leek
4 years ago
Reply to  Matt Mounsey

Your plan to have old men as the main electorate may have some flaws.

Matt Mounsey
Matt Mounsey
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

Like what?

If it were really up to me I’d have a family vote. There are some powers, like borrowing and money printing, that should only be exercisable by families raising the kids that are going to have to pay for it.

It would also force discussion within the family rather than people only voting in their ego-driven, emotional self interest.

Lucan Grey
4 years ago
Reply to  Matt Mounsey

“There are some powers, like borrowing and money printing, that should only be exercisable by families raising the kids that are going to have to pay for it.”

But most importantly people who can only see one side of the balance sheet should be excluded.

For there to be borrowing there has to be saving for the books to balance. So if you’re going to aggregate the borrowing and assign it to ‘the grandchildren’, then you need to aggregate the saving and do the same.

From which the answer is obvious. The grandchildren will pay the borrowing when they spend the savings they inherited from their grandparents.

Propaganda doesn’t just come from Ukraine and Russia. Economists are past masters at it.

Nearhorburian
Nearhorburian
4 years ago
Reply to  Lucan Grey

The assets and liabilities don’t belong to the same people: if all UK government debt was cancelled tomorrow, are you seriously claiming that nobody would complain?

leek
4 years ago
Reply to  Nearhorburian

All those premium bond holders would be a bit miffed.

Nearhorburian
Nearhorburian
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

But, according to LC, their liabilities would have fallen by the same amount.

So why would they be miffed?

leek
4 years ago
Reply to  Nearhorburian

If government debt is cancelled, the government doesn’t pay its liabilities. The premium bond holder doesn’t get his/her money back.

Nearhorburian
Nearhorburian
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

But they also lose their share of government debt.

leek
4 years ago
Reply to  Lucan Grey

If you limit it to numerate people, you are probably down to about 20% of the population.

leek
4 years ago
Reply to  Matt Mounsey

To make that fair, you would need to predict which children will be a net tax payer over their lifetime.

The contrary argument to your “old man plan”, would be climate change. Only the youth have any “skin in the game”, so only they should vote.

Your plan to dismantle democracy is fraught with complexity.

Beowulf
Beowulf
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

Drinking on duty, Lance Corp. leek?

Matt Mounsey
Matt Mounsey
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

Sure. First you’d have to establish that climate change ‘was a thing’. You might have noticed we’re a bit sceptical of that around here.

The climate changers (I notice we’re not talking about global warming any more) and anyone else that profits from the public purse should definitely be excluded from voting. Total conflict of interest.

By the way, I wasn’t saying only old men should vote, I’m saying only those that can reason and control their emotions should be able to. This may disproportionately affect women and younger people whose brains haven’t developed fully yet, or it may be a result of my own prejudice and therefore they may be equally or overrepresented. It doesn’t change my central point. We can’t have any more of these moral panics and mass formations herding our public policy.

Proveritate
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

I think these ad hominem arguments have rather crossed a line.

Beowulf
Beowulf
4 years ago
Reply to  Proveritate

It’s not an ad hominem argument. Fireweasel isn’t dismissing leek’s arguments on the ground that leek is a dimwit, leek simply isn’t making reasoned arguments of any kind, he’s just making what he thinks are biting quips.

Proveritate
4 years ago
Reply to  Beowulf

Oh, right. So we can’t tell whether Fireweasel agrees with leek’s argument or not then.

Beowulf
Beowulf
4 years ago
Reply to  Proveritate

What argument?

Proveritate
4 years ago
Reply to  Beowulf

The ones you said he isn’t dismissing.

Proveritate
4 years ago
Reply to  Proveritate

Yes, I can see that, so why not just ignore him?

leek
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

Quite an attack and un-provoked.

Sign of the times..

Beowulf
Beowulf
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

I would dispute your claim that Fireweasel’s attack was unprovoked. You’ve been shelling all and sundry for quite some time.

Draper233
4 years ago
Reply to  Matt Mounsey

There is no question that the level of emotiveness in the West has gone way too far at present, but I can’t see any evidence historically that there was a golden era of pragmatism and logic that brought less calamitous decisions by politicians and their paymasters.

Unless you can enlighten me?

Matt Mounsey
Matt Mounsey
4 years ago
Reply to  Draper233

I would say that the property qualification imposed a standard of propriety in political discourse that we simply don’t see today. There are no more Churchills, Jeffersons or Franklins. A bit of a higher standard than watching Jess Phillips mouth off in the Commons.

But we also have a lot more information at our disposal and a lot more at stake. There are several factors in our political masters control that can end a society that works perfectly well without their interference. But the only way these mediocre megalomaniacs can get away with it is by herding the bovine horde to our collective slaughter.

Liberty4UK
Liberty4UK
4 years ago
Reply to  Matt Mounsey

Let’s be logical on this… MBTI research re the T (prefer thinking) to F (prefer feeling) continuum shows men are more statistically likely to cluster at either end of the continuum, and women are more likely to be in the middle, so the charge of more women than men being overly emotional is a nonsensical caricature. It may be based upon your own life, but that is not a reliable sample !!!