The Unintended Consequences of the West’s Response to Russia’s Invasion

The West has responded to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine in three main ways: pouring arms into Ukraine to buttress the country’s defence; imposing heavy sanctions on Russia to cripple its economy; and essentially ‘cancelling’ Russia by shutting down its foreign media, censoring its cultural exports, and banning its athletes from international competitions.

The hope seems to be that either one of three things will happen: the Russians will be defeated or forced to withdraw; Putin will be overthrown in a palace coup or popular uprising; or he’ll be brought to the negotiating table and made to accept terms highly unfavourable to Russia. While this strategy may work, I’ve yet to read a cogent defence of it.

In fact, the strategy could have a number of negative second-order effects – i.e., unintended consequences – that haven’t been properly thought through.

As several people have observed, the West’s response seems to have been slapped together on the fly amidst a storm of social media outrage, as opposed to being carefully devised after consideration of all possible eventualities. One Substack commenter noted:

Just as COVID-19 is the first pandemic in the Age of Twitter, so the Ukraine invasion is, in some sense, the first war in the Age of Twitter. As it unfolds, we are seeing many disturbing parallels to the events of early 2020. People are rapidly normalising once-fringe ideas like a NATO-enforced no-fly zone, direct U.S. conflict with Russia, regime change in Moscow, and even, incredibly, the use of nuclear weapons. Just as with Covid, we’re seeing the rapid abandonment of longstanding Western policies. The overnight flips on German defence spending and SWIFT are like the overturning of conventional public health policies on masking, lockdowns, and so on.

Let’s deal with each aspect of the Western response in turn. Pouring arms into Ukraine may precipitate a Russian defeat. But it could just as easily prolong the conflict, leading to many more Ukrainian deaths. The Syrian civil war has dragged on for more than ten years and claimed more than 400,000 lives, in part thanks to external arming of rebel groups.

If there’s a good chance the Ukrainians can win, supplying them with arms makes sense. But if they’re unlikely to prevail, why would we want to prolong the conflict?

One possible answer is to deter the next autocratic ruler from launching a similar invasion. But how much deterrence does supplying arms really achieve, especially if Russia ends up winning? Now, entering the war on Ukraine’s side – that would achieve deterrence, but it’s something the West isn’t willing to do (for obvious reasons).

What about imposing heavy sanctions on Russia to cripple its economy? This could prompt a palace coup or popular uprising, leading to Putin’s downfall. But what then? Whoever replaced him could be just as belligerent as he is – or more so. Russia’s President is unlikely to be supplanted by a liberal-minded democrat.

And there’s a potentially much worse outcome than Putin being toppled and replaced. His ouster could leave a power vacuum, with different factions scrambling to take control of the state apparatus. While calm might soon be restored, what if it wasn’t? We don’t want anarchy or civil war in country armed with thousands of nukes.

Another possibility is that crushing sanctions bring Putin to the negotiating table, where he accepts terms highly unfavourable to Russia. And this might work – eventually. But rather than simply giving in, Putin might retaliate with sanctions of his own. And these could be quite injurious. A lesson of economics is that both parties lose from a trade war.

You might say that it’s worth it to halt Putin’s invasion. But what if the sanctions don’t halt Putin’s invasion? Then we’ve simply cratered Russia’s economy, and to a lesser extent those of the West, for no material gain. (Meanwhile, China’s economy will continue growing apace.)

Furthermore, sanctions imposed on Russia could have unintended long-term consequences. One unprecedented step we have taken is to freeze overseas assets owned by Russia’s central bank, while cutting off access to the SWIFT payment system. There’s no doubt this hurts Russia in the short-term, and probably the medium-term too.

But how will this affect other countries’ decisions about where to invest in the future? Will they not be more wary of putting money in the West, knowing that their assets could be frozen at any moment? Granted, we’re in exceptional circumstances. But these kind of downstream effects shouldn’t be discounted.

Another issue is the inconsistency of Western policy. Why are we backing the Saudi bombing campaign in Yemen with one hand, while we seek to cripple Russia’s economy with the other? There’s already evidence that Western media coverage is perceived as racist – that we care less about Middle Eastern deaths because the people there don’t look like us.

Finally, by doubling down on the policies that got us here in the first place, we’re simply driving Russia into the arms of China. You might say this is a price we have to pay to punish Russia’s aggression, and you might be right. But remember that Russia is a declining power, whereas China is the West’s only ‘peer competitor’.

So what should we do instead? Though I don’t claim to have all the answers, one thing we could have tried is offering conditional concessions at the war’s outset.

As soon as Putin’s tanks rolled across the border, why didn’t we suggest ruling out NATO membership for Ukraine, and recognising the three breakaway regions, on the condition that Russia immediately withdraw its forces. ‘Then we’d be rewarding Russia’s aggression,’ comes the reply. And I suppose that’s true.

But if the choice is between ‘rewarding Russia’s aggression’ and watching lots of people get slaughtered in a war, perhaps the former is the lesser evil – especially since the ultimate geopolitical outcome could be the same in both cases (i.e., Russia controlling parts of Ukraine).   

It’s possible this plan would have been dead on arrival. Putin might have simply rebuffed us, and pressed on with his invasion. But the fact it wasn’t even considered doesn’t inspire confidence in our leaders, who appear to be more concerned with looking ‘tough’ than preventing bloodshed.

At the very least, they could explain what their current policy aims to achieve, and why the various risks I’ve highlighted can be safely ignored.

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Mulgan
Mulgan
4 years ago

We piss about and covertly do no good whilst acting holier than thou. At least Vlad owns his rascality

Star
4 years ago
Reply to  Mulgan

Perhaps Johnson can stand outside Number 10 and read Kipling before he leads the clapping this time.

Who f***ing invented nuclear weapons? Who f***ing dropped them on Hiroshima and Nagasaki? They did it because they loved the world, universal suffrage, and every last chip-eating prole in existence, did they?

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  Star

The Fat Boy, having splurged his stuff over Russia.will just be waiting for his next ‘command’ from his friend Gates!

lordsnooty
4 years ago
Reply to  Star

> Who f***ing invented nuclear weapons?

The British did that! Sir James Chadwick found the way to enrich common Uranium using gas centrifuges at Liverpool university in 1941, he did it at a village in north Wales near Mold, called  Rhydymwyn. This was the main hurdle to get Nuclear bombs, the rest was all packaging, his project was called Tube Alloys, and it was given to America who renamed the project to Manhattan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tube_Alloys

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  Star

They dropped them to frighten Stalin….he wasn’t frightened.

186NO
186NO
4 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

Bollox, but then a standard Moscow Centre/Pravda/FSB trope which you lap up with alacrity.

In case you had not noticed, the US were only engaged in WWII, in the face of very determined isolationist mindsets across all sections of US society, because of Pearl Harbour; even keeping this country going with certain vital supplies was in the face of fierce anti war sentiment; Bombs were dropped to save casualties, if main land Japan had to be invaded, variously estimated at 1 million + US Marines/Army soldiers – the cost of bringing a then intransigent Japan to their senses because the Japanese military and “government” refused to back down.

leek
4 years ago
Reply to  Star

What is your point?

crisisgarden
4 years ago
Reply to  Mulgan

I’d hold off judgement until you’ve familiarised yourself with the events that lead up to this incursion. Putin’s only a rascal, to use your word, if war can never be legitimate. That might be so, but it seems to me that defending your compatriots from indiscriminate shelling, preventing hostile foreign actors from installing WMDs and manufacturing chemical and biological weapons on your doorstep and removing Nazis from a neighbouring country are relatively good justifications for war. One things for certain, massive numbers of Russian people don’t consider him a ‘rascal’, maybe we need to try a bit harder to understand why this is?

RW
RW
4 years ago
Reply to  crisisgarden

Calling everyone one happens to disapprove a Nazi isn’t a good justifaction for anything. Coining another term, it’s habitual second-world-wary. That’s long over, guys. Time to update your terms a little.

ImpObs
4 years ago
Reply to  RW

Do a simple immage search for “Nazi Ukraine” and read about those involved in the 2014 coup, sponsored by the west. You’ll find the cap fits.

Steven Robinson
Steven Robinson
4 years ago
Reply to  ImpObs

But the West did not bomb Ukraine, and if the presence of so-called Nazis is a legitimate casus belli, then perhaps everyone should declare war on China, which is not only totalitarian but racist (the Party considers the Chinese a superior race, the Uighurs and Tibetans inferior).

The West has bombed other countries, and in particular instances I would not wish to defend the action any more than I think Russia’s action now is justifiable.

ImpObs
4 years ago

What? RW accused people of calling them Nazis, as if it was just a regular slur, I correct him, it’s an accurate discription, even reported by the BBC in 2014.

Nobody said anything about the west bombing Ukraine, and nobody said them just being Nazis is the reason for the surrent situation.

Nobody is justifying anything going on here. I have no idea where you’re comming from witht he “so-called” nonsense either, when you can do the same research very easily.

Steven Robinson
Steven Robinson
4 years ago
Reply to  ImpObs

‘Nazi’ refers to the National Socialist German Workers’ Party, which ceased to exist in 1945. The use of the phrase ‘so-called’ is with this in mind. You might spell-check your contributions before posting.

ImpObs
4 years ago

so you’re not even willing to do the image search, see the Nazi salutes and flags, and you want to nit pick about that and my shit old handicapped keyboard skills….

what are you, some kind of confusing diversionary concern troll?

Read RWs post, and my response, and then tell me how your diatrible replying to it relates in any way to that conversation.

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  ImpObs

Ignore the comment about spell checking, it’s beneath you. Besides, he’ll drop the ball one day and you can crucify him for it.

Aletheia of Oceania
Aletheia of Oceania
4 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

Unless the ball is a bomb…

…just saying…

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago

Yes and the runic emblems used by the SS reflected their “mission” of conquest for that party – the same “mission” declared by Bandera supporters and Azov brigade supporters in Ukraine who use the SS 2nd Panzer ‘Division Das’ Reich emblem – the “Wofsangel” on their uniforms and flags – their “mission” is the ethnic cleansing of Russians in Eastern Ukraine.

Aletheia of Oceania
Aletheia of Oceania
4 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

I’m getting déjà vu again.

“Yugoslavia will cease to function as a federal state within a year, and will probably dissolve within two. Economic reform will not stave off the breakup…

My emphasise.

A full-scale interrepublic war is unlikely, but serious intercommunal conflict will accompany the breakup and will continue afterward. The violence will be intractable and bitter. There is little the United States and its European allies can do to preserve Yugoslav unity.”

Source: https://history.state.gov/milestones/1989-1992/breakup-yugoslavia

Not the most reliable of sources, I grant you, but this made me chuckle…

NOTE TO READERS
“Milestones in the History of U.S. Foreign Relations” has been retired and is no longer maintained. For more information, please see the full notice.”

So, they’re making it up as they go along, after one failed international policy, after another…

Where does it end ?

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago

in order to be a nazi one did, does, not have to be a paying member of a, no longer existent, party.
most nazi’s were not a member of the NSDAP.
it suffices to adhere to the doctrine that was propagated by the party.
and in that sense there always have been and still are lots of nazi’s around.

Arfur Mo
Arfur Mo
4 years ago
Reply to  janvanruth

Nazi has become commoditised.

Hoover, a specific brand of vaccuum cleaner – I am going to hoover the carpet.
Biro, a specific brand of ball point pen – I have lost my biro
Google, a specifc internet search engine – why don’t you google it?

The followers of Bandera all have a vicious racial hatred of The Other and have no qualms about killing them. Just like SS, who they frequently collaborated with (eg Stepan Bandera). The SS and nationalist groups like Bandera’s OUN formed formal collaborations during WWII. Various national forms served in SS uinits.

leek
4 years ago
Reply to  ImpObs

This site is FULL of garbage posts excusing the invasion and allocating the blame to anyone but Russia…

Anonymous
Anonymous
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

I don’t read that happening here. I read that social and the legacy media are blaming only Russia and people here are pointing out that this is failing to see the bigger and more nuanced picture, the hypocrisy and the real dangers of doing this.

ImpObs
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

So why bother trolling us?

You come here with your drivebey nonsense refusing to read any of the factual information you’ve been shown multiple times, and sit there with your fingers in your ears going lalalalalala like a little child.

Then you come back with more trolling as if you have any relevance at all, it’s laughable.

You come across as a typical cluster B personality type that thinks the world revolves around them, you have zero credibility without even realising it, it’s hilarious really.

Bungle
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

So you support the NATO position??? Bully for you.

186NO
186NO
4 years ago
Reply to  Bungle

Shut up, appeaser – the only bully here is in Moscow.

Bungle
4 years ago
Reply to  186NO

Oh, all right, I’ll shut up. You sound so hard, I wouldn’t want to incur your wrath.

186NO
186NO
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

Not garbage per se but garbage disguised as unadulterated propaganda courtesy of Moscow Centre/Pravda/FSB psyops manipulation. Some of these comments if made in reverse from Russians would result in a one way trip to a Siberian Holiday Camp, entertainment free and including cultural re-education ….they do not fool anyone.

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago

Th Chinese are not Nazis – a little history might help.

Aletheia of Oceania
Aletheia of Oceania
4 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

David, dear David, words are just words.

Actions speak volumns.

Look at China today, and Germany in 1938 – tell me the difference, and insert Euigars for Jews…?

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

please define nazi….

Millwall_Alan
Millwall_Alan
4 years ago

True, the West did not bomb Ukraine. On the other hand, it did finance and organise a coup against a democratically elected leader (however corrupt) and replace him with a succession of (equally corrupt) pro-Western appointees who immediately launched a genocidal war against the Russian minority population, a majority in the East and Crimea where the main assault took place, killing 14,000 people, by UN estimates, the vast majority civilians. Putin, by contrast, has (finally) retaliated with predominantly precision strikes against military targets. Civilian deaths, depending on which Ukrainian source is used, are between 20 and 200. Terrible, yes, but compare that with US and NATO caused civilian deaths in Serbia, Libya, Afghanistan, Syria etc etc etc. Putin has also stopped his advance, whilst being within a shout of gaining complete victory, to organise humanitarian corridors to allow civilians to leave conflict areas – I can’t remember anything similar being done by NATO. The corridors for Kiev and Mariupol were unsuccessful because the Ukrainian side refused to allow civilians to leave, keeping them as a human shield and, no doubt, the Sun and Express will carry heart-wretching photos of injured and killed children and demand war crimes trials against Putin,… Read more »

rtj1211
rtj1211
4 years ago
Reply to  Millwall_Alan

Glad to hear of another open minded UK citizen. Do you think we should form a 21st century ‘Moonies sect’ whereby we arrange marriages between British and Russian folks to cock a snook at the warmongers in NATO?!

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago
Reply to  rtj1211

it is not a Uk citizen.
he is a russian working in st petersburg in the “kgb”cyber warfare department.
together with david beaton, another russian agent in this thread.

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago
Reply to  Millwall_Alan

you russian agents sure have gotten a lot better lately….
but next time bring in the nazi’s again, seems to work quite well.
or is that restricted to another department?

as always: remember flight MH17

186NO
186NO
4 years ago
Reply to  Millwall_Alan

Good for you; now finish the job off and move to the Mother Russia so you can be feted in the same way as all the other Brits blinded by these arch criminals (and yes I do understand that “The West” has cases to answer, for sure) – you realise what the Russians do to foreign useful idiots despite the vital part they played in providing help to “the Russian Cause”? Isolation, a shitty flat in Moscow and Vodka on tap.

The one eye you have needs to be treated by a skilled Oculist if only to enable you to see who has invaded who?

But then, that is a shade inconvenient, is it not, Tovarich?

leek
4 years ago

Why do 2/3 of people disapprove of a post for pure undeniable fact?

Answer………… they don’t like facts, can’t understand them or reason of any kind.

ImpObs
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

more trolling LOL grow up.

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  ImpObs

It would simply spoil his propaganda pitch to do that!

In a world where Gates spends millions to fake himself as a smiling “philanthropist” “saving” the world and where ‘keeping you safe’ means isolating you from family loved-ones and friends by locking you up in your own house and filling you with experimental injections “truth” has lost all meaning.

crisisgarden
4 years ago
Reply to  RW

No they are Nazis. I wasn’t using it figuratively.

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  crisisgarden

A generation that has abusively used the terms ‘Fascist’ and ‘Nazi’ to childishly abuse and ‘cancel’ people they disagree with are now having to get used to confronting the real deal!

“Growing up” time!

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago
Reply to  crisisgarden

nothing wrong with being a nazi.
lots of so called world leaders are.
turdea,arden,macron to name just a couple.
for it is the adhering to the ideology that makes a nazi, not the waving of swastika flag.
and speaking about not tolerating fringe minorities with unacceptable views sounds a lot like nazi to me.
as is building “quarantine camps” in australia.

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  RW

Those in the Azov brigade who wear 2nd SS Panzer Division “Das Reich” emblems are self-declared “Nazis” – you have a problem with that?

I think calling self-declared Nazis, Nazis is just fine!

If you still have any queries , check out their publicity videos their uniforms and their flags. their emblem is called the “Wolfsangel”.

Aletheia of Oceania
Aletheia of Oceania
4 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

Fuck me, you’re a 77th dissillusioned dick head.

Nice to know where our taxes are being diverted.

Oops, now I’m on their fucking list. Thank fuck for VPNs…..

Aletheia of Oceania
Aletheia of Oceania
4 years ago

I should’ve twigged ages ago…David Beaton…the most English sounding of middle England…

186NO
186NO
4 years ago

Yeah, far to inconveniently bland to be anything else; who in their right mind would reveal this as a “real” name..?

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

so the democrats in the usa are really that?
and the communists in china are really that?
and the Indians are really that?
so you are what you say you are?
and you are what you dress like?
so batman can really fly and superman hater kryptonite?
really?
i would make a case for the fact that justin turdeau of canada is by far a greater nazi than any of those ukrainian hooligans with their ss insignia.

rtj1211
rtj1211
4 years ago
Reply to  janvanruth

Not necessarily, Trudeau is merely a Himmler as compared to a communal garden SS orderly tasked with bumping off undesirables.

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago
Reply to  rtj1211

that sir, is an insult to Himmler.
Himmler was a convinced nazi of his own free accord, turdeau is a second rate actor that does not even realise that he is a nazi.
it is not fair to compare a man with principles, however those may be refutable, to a spineless piece of shit.

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  RW

Not so . The fake Nazis and Fascists invented by the screaming left are mere fake attempts to crush all oppositional views – we are talking about real Nazis with a genocidal agenda in te Ukraine as hours of video footage and reportage clearly shows .

Ever heard of the “Wolfsangel”?

The real Nazis were always of the Left anyway. – check out Ernst Röhm the SA and the 25 point socialist-nationalist plan of the NSDAP.

Hitler trimmed to the right – to the Banker-Capitalists to gain their support for full dictatorial power. ( all nicely illustrated in Visconti’s classic Film ‘the Damned”)

186NO
186NO
4 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

Yawn….have you not heard , your “Lord and Master” Vladimir considers Ukrainians are Russian and have been since the get go; so driving hundreds and thousands, soon to be 1,000,000+,of his “own people” out of their own territory into a foreign territory is either A) a gross misread by him of what proper ethnic cleansing looks like, and he doesn’t realise he should only do it to proper foreigners, or B) he is hustling these “Russian” onto foreign territory to enable a launch a glorious rescue mission, thus protecting “his’ people from the rampaging aggression of NATO/EU/reactionary elements?

You utter fool.

jennyw
4 years ago
Reply to  crisisgarden

What has been severely missing in Western media, politics, and culture in general is the age old Latin phrase “audiatur et altera pars” – LISTEN TO THE OTHER SIDE. This was painfully evidenced by Western diplomats walking out of the room upon Lavrov’s speech. Their jobs were diplomacy and dialogue, and by walking out in emotionally fuelled protest they demonstrated clearly that they were all unfit for their roles. This isn’t a recent phenomenon. The last two years the establishment class and media was consistently failing to listen to the other side to report and make policy in a balanced way. Even before then our institutions and government have been questionable at best. This childish covering of ears and pretending not to hear is characteristic of our media and politicians. So what is the perspective of the “other side” in this case? Russia doesn’t want US nukes on its doorstep. To my view this is a perfectly legitimate concern. Would the US mind if (hypothetically) Russian nukes were to be stationed in Mexico? Of course the US would mind, and would do everything in its power to make sure it doesn’t happen. Why did Western diplomats snub Russia’s very real… Read more »

Mark
4 years ago
Reply to  jennyw

What has been severely missing in Western media, politics, and culture in general is the age old Latin phrase “audiatur et altera pars” – LISTEN TO THE OTHER SIDE. “

The same omission so characteristic of the woke, cancel culture that has become dominant throughout the US sphere in our internal affairs, applies also to foreign affairs.

We mustn’t allow the Russian point of view to be expressed because it’s not just wrong, it’s evil, just like racists, homophobes etc..

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  jennyw

“Missing” – yes, because they have been cancelled and censored by our newly tyrannical Globalist directed rulers.

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago
Reply to  jennyw

if you really think that ANY speech given at conferences and the likes is not handed out on paper and nowadays as a file , you must be living in the 19th century.
they may walk out, but that does not mean they will not have knowledge of the content of the speech.

rtj1211
rtj1211
4 years ago
Reply to  janvanruth

That is not the point, they are projecting contempt for all things Russian to their own domestic audiences, saying to everyone that it is alright to be rude, insulting and disrespectful.

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago
Reply to  rtj1211

walking out on someone talking shit is not rude and insulting.
but talking shit to an audience is.
someone talking shit to an audience deserves no respect, so yes it is disrespectful, and for good reasons so.

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago
Reply to  jennyw

why did chamberlain and daladier in 1938 did not speak to mr hitler about the sudetenland and poland and danzig and the threat of war?

but they did, now didn’t they?
and what came of that?

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago
Reply to  jennyw

so russia does not want us nukes on their doorstep.
fair enough.
now tell us when and where these nukes were placed in ukraine.?
and what keeps putin form invading estonia, latvia and lithuania to make sure there will be no us nukes placed in those countries?
for those countries are as much a threat to putin as ukraine.
not that there are any us nukes in western europe.

and as always: remember flight mh17!

rtj1211
rtj1211
4 years ago
Reply to  janvanruth

Well, you ask the USA to give up the Monroe doctrine and have unfriendly nuclear powers pointing bazookas at them. It doesn’t matter precisely which country, RUssia/China must have a dozen options and have already built the launchpads equivalent to those already built by the USA in Poland, Romania and Bulgaria.

Aletheia of Oceania
Aletheia of Oceania
4 years ago
Reply to  crisisgarden

I agree, and I would add the question; why are the US, and specifically the CIA, funding, training, and arming an overt neo-nazi para military battalion, with clear global links, especially to the Californian NG, when the Biden administration is pushing for tighter controls on ‘domestic terrorists’ ?

The whole thing fucking stinks to high Heaven, especially the timing…

And what’s happened to the ‘global scandemic’, especially Pfizer’s forced publication of ‘material that may effect their share price’ ?

Wall-to-wall, 24-7 MSM coverage of Ukraine has effectively brushed, kicked, nuked it under the carpet.

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago
Reply to  crisisgarden

you claim to hold off judgement yet you display the fact that you believe every word putin says.
you russian agents have gotten a lot better at hiding your true colours lately.

and as always: remember flight MH 17

leek
4 years ago
Reply to  crisisgarden

You are just repeating Putin’s propaganda and the 80 people who approve of your comment must be in favour of the war waged by Russia.

Are those 80 people (plus you) ashamed?

crisisgarden
4 years ago
Reply to  Mulgan

Also worth noting, Putin’s had 25 years to demonstrate his crazed bloodthirsty warmongering. See if you can list the countries or territories he’s brutalised in that time.

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  crisisgarden

Whilst the west (NATO) brutalised the middle east on the pretext of ‘the war on terror’ which has been an abject failure.

Stopping homeland terror attacks is an internal matter. Razing the middle east only encourages resentment and encourages more homeland terror.

Our security services are, by their accounts, immensely successful at keeping terror off our streets. Perhaps their job would have been easier had Blair not encouraged it by prosecuting illegal overseas wars.

ImpObs
4 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

I suggest you read Terror on The Tube, by Nicholas Kollerstrom, or view some of the alt media video on the subject.

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  ImpObs

I know of it although I haven’t read it.

My first sentence might have alerted you to the fact that I’m not entirely convinced 9/11 was a terrorist attack (being the blue touch paper for the war on terror).

I’m not convinced it wasn’t, so my jury is still out.

ImpObs
4 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

It’s worth getting into any of the big ones to really see the bricks behind the theater wall, but because it’s so tedious and frustrating since you can’t do anything about it, it’s not really worth it in the long run, you can’t ‘unsee’ that shit. A bit of research into ‘Operation Gladio’ including the court documents from Italy and Belgium would give the bigger picture since it’s a matter of record. Cui bono is the logical sceptical question, since no terrorist bombing anywhere ever helped the “terrorists” in any way shape or form, it leaves one with the obvious conclusion, only the deep state machine benefits. “You had to attack civilians, the people, women, children, innocent people, unknown people far removed from any political game. The reason was quite simple. They were supposed to force these people, the Italian public to turn to the State to ask for greater security. This was precisely the role of the right in Italy. It placed itself at the service of the State which created a strategy aptly called the ‘Strategy of Tension’ in so far as they had to get ordinary people to accept that at any moment over a period of 30 years, from 1960 to the mid… Read more »

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago
Reply to  ImpObs

 “since no terrorist bombing anywhere ever helped the “terrorists” in any way shape or form”
the absolute truth there.
as long as you define terrorists as the ones that lost that is….
graf von stauffenberg, the man that tried to kill hitler with a bomb, surely was a terrorist and was shot as such.
yet in modern germany his name is given to streets, bridges etc……
for 68 years terrorists in my home country have bombed the spanish conquistadores until they finally left.
come again with anywhere ever?

ImpObs
4 years ago
Reply to  janvanruth

One mans terorist is another man freedom fighter.

Without getting into a long discussion about who’s a real terrorist, and who’s a real freedom fighter, I take your point.

I was really referring to the multiple “false flag terrorism” events, of which there is a very long list, and even that would get into grey areas if we include faked events rather than real explosions.

It’s not worth getting into detail though, although many people are sceptics here, without years of research emotional triggers are too set too near the hair end of sensitivity

JIGR1969
4 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

Go to Amazon Prime and watch 7, it talks about the collapse of WTC7. After which, you’ll be in no doubt that it wasn’t external terrorists that took down the WTC buildings.

rtj1211
rtj1211
4 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

Well, if it WAS a terrorist attack, it wasn’t due to planes hitting the WTC buildings. The evidence is IN that the destruction of two WTC towers was NOT due to plane impacts. The evidence is IN that WTC7 was deliberately collapsed using explosives.

The evidence is IN that several hundred first responders and witnesses heard multiple explosions prior to the WTC towers collapsing. That is historical fact, it’s not opinion.

The evidence is IN that the evidence of the crime scene was removed by the US Govt and shipped to China to prevent forensic examinations taking place.

The evidence is IN that traces of nanothermite were detected in the rubble dust of the WTC towers, something which should only be present after demolition of a building using thermite-style explosives.

The evidence is IN that the Pentagon was NOT hit by an aeroplane, rather by a missile.

Try watching this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCzy9i4tIHU

It may start to make you question the official narrative….

186NO
186NO
4 years ago
Reply to  rtj1211

I see where you are coming from; I have it on very good authority that the plane that crashed into the Empire State Building was a dress rehearsal for 2001; the crew was made of dissidents whose descendants came from a swathe of ethnic east europeans who fled persecution from the churches of The Trust in the aftermath of the second Russian revolution. The settled in Utah to become Mormons and disliked the attitude of “Americans” towards their version of marriage, hence their hostile reaction.

Can let you have a link to the source, if your interest is pricked.

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  crisisgarden

I see Serbia ( bombed by Blair and Nato ) has enthusiastically supported Russia with popular demonstrations in the street! ( as not seen on the BBC – now banned in Russia for some reason!)

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

remember srebrenica?
the list of victims is 8,372 names long.
unarmed civilians slaughtered by the serbs.

there are reasons why serbia will never be allowed to become a member of the eu……
the reason why they hide the demonstrations is to not give the eu members another reason to not grant eu membership to serbia.
and putin would love to have a pro russian member in the eu…

and as always: remember flight mh17

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago
Reply to  crisisgarden

my memory is not what it used to be, but straight out of the back of my head:
georgia, chechnya, ukraine, syria, kazakhstan.
as i said my memory is not what it used to be so i might have forgotten some.
so please be a good chap and be so kind and add those that i have forgotten to the list?

oh dang, i forgot, as it comes to putin and warmongering you have complete amnesia….

rtj1211
rtj1211
4 years ago
Reply to  janvanruth

He was invited into Syria and Kazakhstan by the leaders of those countries. He didn’t invade or brutalise, he provided a service requested by the leaders of those countries. Here’s a list of where the USA is brutalising people the past 21 years: Yemen – oh, yes, freedom fighting going on there. There is a genocide going on there, using the Iraq template. Syria – the USA is stealing Syrian oil in breach of international law and is arming terrorists, as it has done for well over a decade. Libya – the most prosperous nation in Africa, providing child support services for young mothers that put the USA to shame. Bombed to a pulp for threatening to sell oil and gas in non-dollar denominated countries. Zero military threat to the USA, merely engaging in Free Trade, something the USA will murder and commit genocides to prevent. Iraq: the textbook operation of how to kill and maim on a false pretext. No WMDs existed, the whole lead up to war was stage managed with never ending lying from start to finish. They left a parting gift of depleted uranium to mutilate foetuses inside their mothers’ tummies. Lovely…. Afghanistan – the trigger… Read more »

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago
Reply to  rtj1211

no reaction on georgia, chechnya, ukraine?
so i take it you do agree with those?
invited into syria?
sure enough they were, they actually wrote the letter of invitation themselves…
i cannot recall the invitation sent by the ukrainian leaders to putin….
and if you are referring to the separatists inviting putin,so was hitler in sudetenland and poland and austria ….

and what does the fact that the usa are a fascist imperialist villainous state has to do with anything regarding russia invading ukraine?
are you claiming that because the usa are murderers the russians are entitled to murder also?

and as always: remember flight mh 17, 298 civilians murdered by russian military in ukraine.

186NO
186NO
4 years ago
Reply to  janvanruth

JAR, you keep sticking that truth to these fuck**s; the points you make are disturbingly apposite to all but the Moscow Centre useful idiots who would try to swallow an elephant if they were told it is in the interests of the oppressed “Russian People”. ( As the try to escape westwards….another f**ki**g inconvenient fact ) Some of these world class gullible fools don’t appreciate that “swastkia” is Sanskrit for “well being”; so if it is good enough for them to suggest it has been , effectively, “hijacked” by these Avoz Ukrainians, what on this earth do they think the NSDAP did the 1930’s – and why do they not see the immoral equivalence of the use of the same symbol. I hope these apologies for “people” get to speak to those Poles and others who, circa 1941 onwards are trampled by the Nazis and then by the Russians, especially those Poles whose families were wiped out by the glorious Russian Army liberating the world of the Nazi invaders; funny that, liberating a population from the tyranny of the Nazi invasion by….murdering them – “GOT AN OPINION ON THAT, CRETINS?” They are as devoid of any humanity as a slab… Read more »

186NO
186NO
4 years ago
Reply to  crisisgarden

Errr, bombing Syrian citizens in Syria for one…yu remember that, where the Russian puppet Assad used chemical weapons on his own population or was that, blow ,me, ANOTHER CIA black ops even ? Chechnya for two, Georgia for a third, and blow me I reckon there was a fourth, Afghanistan was it….. thing that one did not go toooo well if I remember correctly..

alison
alison
4 years ago
Reply to  Mulgan

An invading force dropping cluster bombs on civilians and opening fire in the vicinity of nuclear power stations is completely unjustifiable and utterly reckless. As if this isn’t enough, Putin is also tyrannising those Russians who dare to dissent. And I don’t think he’s owning it, he’s spreading propaganda about his actions at home.

Whatever one might think about the current Ukrainian government or about the circumstances around their coming to power in 2014, they were democratically elected in 2019, and it is absolutely clear from the response to this invasion that the vast majority of ordinary Ukrainians don’t want Russian tanks rolling in. Regime change is rotten when the Western powers do it, and rotten when Putin does it.

If anyone wants to say that western leaders are corrupt, morally bankrupt authoritarians, after the past 2 years, I’ll gladly agree. But I’m not making excuses for a corrupt, morally bankrupt authoritarian from elsewhere on that account.

Rowan
Rowan
4 years ago
Reply to  alison

You didn’t mention the 15000 or so ethnic Russians killed by Ukraine since the bloody revolution in 2014. You seem to have selective myopia.

alison
alison
4 years ago
Reply to  Rowan

I’m aware of the fighting between Russian backed separatists and Ukrainian government forces and the deaths that have been caused. It’s not selective myopia in the least, as I’m not defending either the Ukrainian regime or the interference in their support by the US and NATO in Ukraine. I just am not willing to defend Putin’s current actions either. And I don’t believe that he’s acting simply to protect innocent lives, with no expansionist ambitions, any more than I accept that the invasion of Iraq was carried out out of pure and humanitarian motives.

In short, I think this war is an unjust one, and a destructive solution to the pre existing problems in the region, like all the other disasterous wars over the past 20 years.

rtj1211
rtj1211
4 years ago
Reply to  alison

You’re happy having nukes pointed at your children from Calais, are you? (Or next door to wherever you rest your head?)

It’s all so easy being sanctimonious when no-one’s sticking bazookas up OUR backsides.

Our attitudes would be the same as Putin if Eire bought hypersonic weapons to target London and Joe Biden was backing them in doing so…

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago
Reply to  rtj1211

you seem to attach rather a lot of importance to where the nuclear missiles are placed.
let me ask you: does it matter if the water is 10 meters deep or 1000 meters deep as regard to the risk of drowning?
no matter where the nuclear missiles are placed, using them will ALWAYS result in the destruction of both the targeted country and the country that is firing them.
for there will always be enough time and missiles left for a retaliatory strike.
if adolf would have had the nuclear launch codes handed to him on april 30st 1945 the whole world would have gone up in flames.
and putin is as much a sociopath as hitler was.
(with apologies to hitler for comparing a self serving opportunist like putin to him.)

186NO
186NO
4 years ago
Reply to  rtj1211

OH FFS you world class cretin, how many nukes are pointed “from the East” at you, or are you ensconced east of Novosibirsk?

But by all means keep ejecting the bollox from the amorphous blob that doubles as your brain – it is good for a laugh if nothing else.

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  Rowan

They never do mention this – neither did the BBC!

RT does – and this is of course the principal reason it has been ‘banned’ in the west!

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

RT is just another media source.

One of it’s paid commentators was Alex Salmond. Now there’s a propagandist.

rtj1211
rtj1211
4 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

Yes, it is just another media source. One which gives different opinions to CNN, which lies for a living about almost everything.

Why is CNN still allowed to broadcast in Europe, other than the USA is Europe’s mafia Godfather?

It certainly isn’t due to its attention to the truth….

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

does RT mention the millions of ukrainians murdered by the russians in the holodomor?
or does RT mention flight MF 17?
especially the fact that three russian army officials have been convicted of the murders?
i thought so….

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago
Reply to  Rowan

you forgot to mention the couple of million ukrainians murdered by the russians during the holodomor.
you seem to have selective amnesia…

Draper233
4 years ago
Reply to  alison

“dropping cluster bombs on civilians”

Evidence?

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  Draper233

None – untrue!

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

You don’t know that.

jennyw
4 years ago
Reply to  Draper233

It’s like the Syrian propaganda all over again. This group used these kinds of weapons, and that group did that thing over there, etc, etc. How much of it is really carried out by agent provocateurs?

ImpObs
4 years ago
Reply to  jennyw

or the Ukranian government it’s self:

French journalist criticized for reporting Kiev’s shelling of Eastern Ukraine
https://odysee.com/@RT:fd/french-journalist-criticized-for:5

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  alison

Yes Alison, indeed that would be ” unjustifiable” – were it the case ….but if you read the real accounts of the events – even (amazingly!) covered by some UK media – that is not what happened, just hysteria mongering Ukrainian propaganda sponsored ( like their President) by the Biden Regime that you are, very sadly. unthinkingly repeating.

NeilParkin
4 years ago
Reply to  alison

I always feel a bit uneasy when someone tries to take the moral high ground that the other side is doing something unspeakable, and that ‘their side’ wouldn’t stoop to such behaviour. Rather like Labour moaning about the ‘lies’ of the Tories, as if Labour’s every utterance isn’t also a lie. Or pointing out Russian donations, when their pockets jingle from Chinese cash. Our politicians are corrupt and influenced, if not by the Russians or the Chinese, then by the WEF. or Soros. Politics is a dirty game, played by people with dirty hands. There are no rights and wrongs, only power and money. Believe nothing. Question everything.

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  alison

You need to appreciate that the west is as subject to propaganda as Russia.

Was a nuclear power station being shot at? And where did you get that information from? The BBC? or online? Both are unreliable sources.

jennyw
4 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

There is the thought that the Russians wouldn’t recklessly make such a move due to the atmospheric winds in the region. They blow from west towards the east and would carry any fallout over the Russian mainland.

CovidiotAntiMasker
CovidiotAntiMasker
4 years ago
Reply to  Mulgan

The West may act holier than thou, which of course it isn’t. An excellent analysis linked here explains why the sanctions the West has imposed may be little more than pissing about. https://asiatimes.com/2022/03/the-gaping-hole-in-western-sanctions-on-russia/.

RedhotScot
4 years ago

Western sanctions on Russia are nothing more than propaganda for the west. Besides, sanctions don’t affect government officials or the wealthy elite, they affect ordinary citizens.

The theory behind them being that when sanctions bite the populace will rise up (politically or physically) and revolt against their government.

I mean, this is a serious western tactic? By the time sanctions kick in, and if the populace of Russia could rise up without being crushed by the Russian military, Ukraine would be under Russian rule anyway.

CovidiotAntiMasker
CovidiotAntiMasker
4 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

Yes, in my view the so called sanctions and military aid are counter productive and could be construed as a declaration of war.

Fireweasel
Fireweasel
4 years ago

The rise of Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky?   Ihor Kolomoyskyi is a high-status gangster in Ukraine. He’s barred from the US for crimes and is under investigation by Israel. Kolomoyskyi was at one time a governor of a regional area in Ukraine, but was dismissed or ousted from this position in 2014.   Ihor Kolomoyskyi wanted revenge for this ousting and got it through his ownership of a television station in Ukraine. He ran the TV show, Servant of the People, starring Volodymyr Zelenskyy – in this TV show Zelenskyy played the role of president of Ukraine.   It seems certain that this two-bit TV show was astroturfed, that is, its viewing ratings were artificially increased to make it seem a very popular show.     Then Ihor Kolomoyskyi steered Volodymyr Zelenskyy into politics. This is where the astroturfed ratings for the TV show probably came in. If election fraud was needed to get Zelenskyy past the post, people would be less suspicious because the TV show had already shown that Zelenskyy was very popular in Ukraine.   “Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy rode to power on pledges to clean up the Eastern European country, but the Pandora Papers reveal he and… Read more »

huxleypiggles
4 years ago
Reply to  Fireweasel

Top class.

B.F.Finlayson
4 years ago
Reply to  Fireweasel

…Zelenskyy attempting to coerce women and children to go out on the streets and attack Russian tanks with Molotov cocktails.

Thereby making them military targets. And not forgetting Zelensky handing out AK47s to anyone with a Ukraine passport. All too predictably (by accounts) most of these have ended up in the hands of criminals, organised or otherwise, with no intemdtion of facing off against Russian tanks. Madness or deliberate?
Good summary FW.

Fireweasel
Fireweasel
4 years ago
Reply to  B.F.Finlayson

Zelenskyy is also offering to arm foreigners that go to Ukraine, as long as they claim that they are there to fight the Russians. Take this in correlation with fanatics in the Middle East calling for their brethren in Europe to take advantage of the conflict in Ukraine to do jihad against White Europeans. All the jihadists have to do is go to Ukraine and Zelenskyy will give them weapons with which to carry out their attacks.   Liz Truss, the UK Foreign Secretary who probably couldn’t find Russia on a map, fully supported British citizens going to fight in Ukraine.        So far Zelenskyy has handed out over 10,000 AK 47’s to Ukrainian citizens – and possibly foreigners. These are citizens that have absolutely no training or experience in using automatic weapons like this.   The Russian army, or any army, is trained when fighting a war to return fire on anyone that shoots at them. Likewise, when advancing through the Ukraine, Russian soldiers are trained to fire on anyone in the distance carrying weapons and presumed to be enemy combatants who pose a threat to them.   Armed citizens will be cut down by the combat psyched-up Russian… Read more »

B.F.Finlayson
4 years ago
Reply to  Fireweasel

President Zelenskyy? He’s a disgusting and vile little basta*d

He does have his weak points too.

Star
4 years ago
Reply to  Fireweasel

(…) in the hope that NATO gets involved

…meaning that nuclear war then ensues

…and not just in Ukraine but with the destruction of many cities across both Russia and the west.

Some find it hard to believe, because it is so evil, but there are forces that are consciously pushing for this outcome and clearly Zelensky is in that party.

Rowan
Rowan
4 years ago
Reply to  Star

Zelensky is no planner. He is simply a pawn of US/NATO elites in their never ending war against Russia.

Star
4 years ago
Reply to  Rowan

Zelensky is a pawn, yes. But although those such as Kolomoyskyy have an abiding hatred of Russia, they don’t care whether the US and other NATO countries get nuked to smithereens along with Russia.

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  Star

More importantly perhaps, Nuland hates Russia – and sadly she has calls all the shots!

JohnMcCarthy
JohnMcCarthy
4 years ago
Reply to  Fireweasel

Excellent points made.

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago
Reply to  Fireweasel

you russian agents have become a lot better in posing as westerners.
next time do not forget to mention the 14.000 dead russians.
or is that another department of your bureau in st petersburg?

and as always: remember flight mh 17, 293 foreigners murdered by russian troops on ukrainian territory on the 17th july 2014.

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  B.F.Finlayson

“All too predictably (by accounts) most of these have ended up in the hands of criminals, organised or otherwise, with no intemdtion of facing off against Russian tanks.”

An extremely good point.

How do we imagine Afghanistan was found impossible to suppress.

The US supplied the Mujahideen with weapons to fight the Russians, only to have them turned on them when they decided to invade the country.

Libertarianist
4 years ago
Reply to  Fireweasel

Spot on again.

John Dee
4 years ago
Reply to  Libertarianist

Bit harsh on Liz Truss, I thought. She’s probably reasonably map-savvy; it’s just she doesn’t know who controls which bits.

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  John Dee

Not harsh enough – she is supposed to be ‘Foreign Secretary” it used to be be an important post held by a serious, well educated and experience diplomat.

She is a disgrace to the Office.

NeilParkin
4 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

Its the new game of ‘Which Oxford PPE Graduate can we give this desk to.?’. Ministers with portfolio that they know inside out and can make a real contribution to..? Gone in the 1960-‘s sorry to say…

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

Name a Cabinet Minister who isn’t.

CovidiotAntiMasker
CovidiotAntiMasker
4 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

A potentially very dangerous Foreign Secretary, she’s still ramping up the idiotic tough talking rhetoric without betraying even the slightest hint of understanding the big picture, all while backed up by Bozo the delusional quack quack clown as he clumsily transitions from the fake war on covid to the potentially very real war with Russia.

rtj1211
rtj1211
4 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

When writing to my MP about things, I referred to her as ‘the most ignorant f***wit to hold senior office in my lifetime’.

Is that harsh enough for you?

Mumbo Jumbo
4 years ago
Reply to  Fireweasel

Zelensky is winning the PR war hands down aided and abetted by a compliant western media. Only yesterday he was exaggerating the risk of attacking a nuclear facility when it was clear that the Russians had only targeted to administrative block. Even after the nuclear watchdog made it clear that there was no radioactivity being released, the press continued to parrot his warning to the Russian people.

crisisgarden
4 years ago
Reply to  Mumbo Jumbo

And yet the day before that he appeared in public visibly half-cut, either drunk or coked up. Give it time, I’m sure we’ll eventually see him eating his tie.

B.F.Finlayson
4 years ago
Reply to  Mumbo Jumbo

aided and abetted by a compliant western media.

Along with spineless happy-clappy Western politicians everywhere and a suitably credulous population hanging on the MSM’s every word. Even this afternoon’s football commentaries were shot through with propaganda.
On this site there are those who still haven’t grasped (or don’t want to grasp) that Ukraine is an anti-democratic (it outlawed a main political party) US puppet regime with Nazi ideology deeply embedded at all levels of its government, military and administration. A country that following a military coup in 2014 has relentlessly shelled its own people in the Donbass using quasi-autonomous Nazi Battalions. The info is there, the West doesn’t want to know.
This type of wall to wall propaganda psy-op worked with Covid (the dumb asses old and young are still wearing face masks in the supermarket) so why not with Ukraine?

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  B.F.Finlayson

I wonder if the hysteria would have been quite so shrill had Russia invaded Germany in 1949, or thereabouts?

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

russia invaded germany?
but it had, in 1945 that is.
and the world was quite satisfied it did.
mind you the same russians had invaded, along with their allies, the germans, poland in 1939.
so history has proved that russia cannot be trusted.

ellie-em
4 years ago
Reply to  B.F.Finlayson

Talking about supermarkets, Sainsbury’s is encouraging shoppers to donate their nectar points to Comic Relief (!) to show support and solidarity with the people of the Ukraine.

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago
Reply to  B.F.Finlayson

military coup in 2014?
i sure would like to see some evidence for the military part of that…
the separation of donbas could be called a military coup, wouldn’t you agree?
and even one with foreign military interference, wouldn’t you agree?
and even one that murdered 293 passengers of flight mh 17 flying through ukrainian airspace, shot down by a russian buk missile, surely you must agree?

next time do not forget to mention the 14.000 dead russians.
we do not want to disappoint your boss alex, now do we?

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  Mumbo Jumbo

He is winning only because we are fed only crude Nato propaganda for the gullible to swallow and the Russian view is banned for fear of people being exposed to it – what kind of ‘victory’ is that?

I suspect Russia’s view will turn out not to be far from the truth. The fact is that countries representing 41% of the World population support Russia. regardless of the hysterical lies and False Fag events coming from and staged by the former clown andNato stooge Zelensky.

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

you did not get the memo?
you have been identified as one of putin’s agents and are supposed to change the blog.
another agent already has entered the thread.
so you can go.

as always: remember flight mh17, where 293 foreign passengers were murdered by russian military in ukrainian airspace.

rtj1211
rtj1211
4 years ago
Reply to  Mumbo Jumbo

I don’t think he is, the Western media doesn’t do journalism any more, they run with what they are told to run with. Zelensky only need the support of Biden and Nuland and the whole of the West was in his palm.

John Dee
4 years ago
Reply to  Fireweasel

Again, an eerie parallel with our own state of play.
A national TV service run by a shadowy elite puts a scruffy, bumbling journo-turned-politician into a panel show on a number of occasions. Then he runs for Mayor of London and manages to be elected (twice) despite numerous instances of wasting money and chumocracy. On his return to Parliament, he is elevated to Foreign Secretary to much amusement worldwide (or so it seemed). Following the downfall of the useless PM who’d elevated him, he succeeds to the top post, only to oversee the biggest cancelling of citizen freedoms in living memory. His determination to jab every last citizen is only thwarted by the likelihood that the Health Service would tank and the economy take a further dive.
And, as a coup de grace, he agrees to knight a prat who ballsed up UK Education for a while.
Did that Ukrainian gangster just rewrite our script a little?

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  John Dee

You could be describing London Mayor Khan in that post…………..

Star
4 years ago
Reply to  Fireweasel

The order banning Kolomoyskyy from the US was signed a year ago today:

https://www.state.gov/public-designation-of-oligarch-and-former-ukrainian-public-official-ihor-kolomoyskyy-due-to-involvement-in-significant-corruption/

Public Designation of Oligarch and Former Ukrainian Public Official Ihor Kolomoyskyy Due to Involvement in Significant Corruption

Press Statement

Antony J Blinken, Secretary of State

How’s the Israeli investigation going? Israeli policy is never to extradite any Israeli citizen (such as Kolomoyskyy) for an alleged crime committed before they “became a national”.

If Kolomoyskyy runs to Israeli-held territory I wouldn’t bet on him standing trial in a Ukrainian court.

There is no doubt that this man has played a highly significant role in dragging Ukraine, the country where he was born, into the sh*t such that

  • more than 10000 people have been killed
  • more than 1 million have become refugees
  • for all we know, nuclear war may be imminent

EDIT: surprise, surprise – Kolomoyskyy is well connected with the Chabad organisation (formerly often known as “the Lubavitchers”), being a business associate of Mordechai Korf.

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  Fireweasel

I do appreciate your ‘moral’ conclusion – spot on comment .

Sadly, Victoria Nuland and the CIA had other plans for the Ukraine back in 2014.

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  Fireweasel

Humanity has lived with ambitious gangster oligarchs for thousands of years.

They keep failing.

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago
Reply to  Fireweasel

in 2014 the legally elected president of the ukraine refused to sign the treaty of affiliation with the eu.
the very treaty he had negotiated with the eu.
in stead he wanted to sell ukraine to russia after putin had offered him more money than the eu would give to ukraine.
so the people revolted and chased off the president who fled to russia and was taken in by his friend putin.
not one western soldier was on ukrainian soil.
after that putin sent russian soldiers into ukrainian territory to help the revolting russians.
so who is the bully of the ukrainian people the west or putin?

and as always: remember flight mh 17, 293 foreign civilians murdered by russian troops in ukraine.

civilliberties
4 years ago

“The West has responded to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine in three main ways: pouring arms into Ukraine to buttress the country’s defence; imposing heavy sanctions on Russia to cripple its economy; and essentially ‘cancelling’ Russia by shutting down its foreign media, censoring its cultural exports, and banning its athletes from international competitions”. May sound over the top but it does feel like we are either in a prelude or in world war 3, other countries selling arms to ukraine has dragged those countries in even though physical boots by armies of the west are not officially on the ground, banning Russian goods in supermarkets and shutting RT is certainly actions that look like a start of something worse to come. I heard somewhere that a theory and speculation was that putin thought the west would do very little after russian aggression in the past, i.e the novichok attacks etc, makes me wonder if the plan was to bide time, get Russian comfortable with flaring up with ukraine, and then this pincers Russia and potentially collapses the country. Afterall, on one side you could have the west wanting to march into russia, on the other end you could get china potentially… Read more »

Mark
4 years ago
Reply to  civilliberties

“the novichok attacks

Let’s try to keep some semblance of reality to the discussion. The “novichok attacks” were about as credible as those videos of people walking along streets in China and dropping down dead from “covid” in early 2020.

Made up basically by the same people who fabricated the “Russiagate” hogwash, and for similar reasons.

leek
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

And thereby illustrating your mindset.

Mark
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

My “mindset” being scepticism about absurdly implausible stories that just happen to serve the goals of very powerful established liars?

What’s your “mindset”?

And did you even notice the Russiagate fabrications?

Rowan
Rowan
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Troll leek only notices what he is paid to notice.

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

scepticism about absurdly implausible stories….
so you do not believe the stories as they are so implausible.
you are not a scepticus.
you just do not believe certain stories and call that scepticism.
true scepticism specifically addresses the stories you do believe….

ImpObs
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

au contraire! You comment indicates the low pressure vaccume inside you mind that can easily be filled with whatever mainstream narrative wafts past it.

The Russians used the worlds most deadly neuro toxin, that didn’t kill it’s victim, or the tens of policemen that went in the house unprotected to search it, the victim fell ill in the street just as the top bioweapons nurse from Porton Down was passing…

Some people can be dumb as rocks.

Rowan
Rowan
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

The down voters got it right this time.

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

I have a real problem with three buildings in the 9/11 attacks falling as though in a controlled demolition, the twin towers, and the UN building which wasn’t hit by anything.

One building, yes, I accept that; two of precisely the same design? there is an argument however unlikely. But three buildings, one of a different design, hit by nothing?

What is my mindset? Curious?

rtj1211
rtj1211
4 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

Seek the opinion of leading US demolitions company former executives – you’ll find them on video in the ether….

Rowan
Rowan
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

You are right over the target. The 77th Brigade down voters are clearly nervous.

Mark
4 years ago

There is obviously no solution that is good for all. We are not in a zero sum situation, but we are not in a no conflict situation either. The closest to an overall best solution would be to accept that Russia’s war is a legitimate policy response to US policy and the situation it has created, let them get on with sorting out the situation in the Ukraine, and look to change those US policies for the future. In particular we need to decide whether the UN era dream of a world in which war is not used as a tool of state policy is retrievable or not, after it was essentially destroyed by the US wars of choice in Yugoslavia, Iraq, Syria etc. Because the pretence of a rule of law is worse imo than honest recognition of hard reality. It’s that pretence that has given rise to all the deluded or dishonest squeals about a supposed “rules based order” that Russia supposedly breached by doing something just as illegal as, and so far much less bloody than, the US’s regular actions, which they had barely sniffed at. It fuels the mass hysteria that has driven the self-harming response… Read more »

JXB
JXB
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

The closest to an overall best solution…

… would be to keep out if it, mind our own business and put our own house in order starting with State sponsored child abuse to ‘protect granny’.

huxleypiggles
4 years ago

Excellent article and I agree with your analysis.

I still cannot remove the depopulation thesis from my thinking. Are the Davos Deviants behind this war? If they are not then the likelihood is that this war could seriously disrupt their Agenda 2030 plans. By the same token this could enhance said plans. The potential for major cockups is self evident. For all their planning I doubt the DD’s have factored in all potential ‘mistakes.’

On a straightforward interpretation the short term for us and the West is rampaging inflation and food and fuel rationing. China appears to have stockpiled already so Putin gave Xi the nod. Is China going to take Taiwan?

Certainly, at the moment there is no sign of leadership in the West so our likely outcome is poor. There is no gain available to the West if we stay on our current course.

The West has screwed up big time. Has this been the intention all the time?

Bella Donna
4 years ago
Reply to  huxleypiggles

There is no leadership in the West because our current western leaders are nothing more than puppets of the unelected W.E.F. Putin is neither mad nor stupid, it wasn’t as if we weren’t warned about our actions but we have ignored him, now the world is on the brink of war because of the insanity of those in the West.

huxleypiggles
4 years ago
Reply to  Bella Donna

Indeed.

Rowan
Rowan
4 years ago
Reply to  Bella Donna

Short concise and accurate. Thank you.

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  Bella Donna

Schwab has boasted that he owns half the Cabinets of the world rulers he owns too! The “Russia Hating” Mayor of Kiev is one of Schwab’s creatures!

ImpObs
4 years ago
Reply to  huxleypiggles

We have to ask the question: Has the failure of COVID to accomplish the
Great Reset been escalated to war? Seizing assets of private citizens
and moving deliberately to burn down the world economy in order to Build
Back Better is starting to appear to be an agenda. This makes no sense
and getting the press and the people to just demonize Putin ensures
there can be no resolution other than confrontation. What will the West
do when Ukraine falls?

.

There have been those who think that the current world monetary
system and Bretton Woods was achieved only because WWII wiped out the
world economy — except the United States’. This is not an opportunity to
Build Back Better in the wake of WWIII, which would be far more
devastating. The Atomic Bomb over Japan brought an end to the war. But
this time, those weapons are standard – not unique to one side.

.

A number of emails have come in asking, “Who will benefit?” It seems
that this is a desperate idea to redesign the world economy at a
tremendous expense.

https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/world-news/war/is-war-the-ploy-for-the-great-reset/

Vxi7
Vxi7
4 years ago
Reply to  huxleypiggles

‘is davos/wef behind this war?’ :

Did Russia made the covid 19 pandemic their most important topic in the last 2 years? Did they produce a mighty vaccine which was pushed on everyone?

I think you can answer these questions and you will see where putin stands. Right next to schwab.

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  Vxi7

Putin was a KGB operative …does that answer your concerns?

rtj1211
rtj1211
4 years ago
Reply to  Vxi7

You could easily argue that Putin created a ‘Sputnik Vaccine’ to ensure that no Russians had to receive the time bombs from the West.

If the vaccines really are bioweapons, then protecting your own people is the only way to go.

I don’t know the truth on that one, but be open to that possibility….

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago
Reply to  rtj1211

protecting your people from a disease that kills people at a rate of less than 1 in 1000, and with the dead being over 82 on average, and all having severe comorbidities.?
i do not think that putin, nor any other leader in the world is actually concerned about that disease.
this never was about a disease…

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  huxleypiggles

Russia on the Gold Standard and half the world interested in escaping Dollar Tyranny before the Digital take-over has been formulated? India wanting Ruppee trading with Russia?

Has “Darth Vader’ Schwab ‘gamed that one?

rtj1211
rtj1211
4 years ago
Reply to  huxleypiggles

Putin committed the ultimate Davos crime of joining the Holy Order then excommunicating himself and calling the rest of them a bunch of insane f***wits.

There is no crime worse than that.

Mark
4 years ago

“The Syrian civil war has dragged on for more than ten years and claimed more than 400,000 lives, in part thanks to external arming of rebel groups.” Remember all those solemn assertions that “Assad is doomed”, from much the same people as are now declaring “Putin is doomed”? They were wrong because they were based on a fundamentally dishonest misrepresentation of the situation on the ground in Syria, just as the current anti-Russian hysteria dominating the US sphere media and political elites is based on a dishonest misrepresentation of the situation in the Ukraine and its causes “If there’s a good chance the Ukrainians can win, supplying them with arms certainly makes sense. But if they’re unlikely to prevail, why would we want to prolong the conflict?” There is not and has never been any chance that the Ukrainian military can militarily defeat Russia in a conventional war, however long. The only possibility of any kind of defeat is the one the US neocon warmongers fantasise about, of an Afghan insurgency style long drawn out war in the Ukraine. Whether that’s a possibility or just another neocon pipe-dream is uncertain, but what is certain is that the costs to Ukrainians… Read more »

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

The US and the CIA wanted endless chaos and blood in Syria and now want the same in Ukraine. This is the only way the Neo-Cons believe that America can still rule.’ “Create chaos” divide and rule’ – could be their motto.

rtj1211
rtj1211
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Correct – Assad has always retained the support of the majority of his people, as has Putin thus far.

The West’s fundamental problem is that is always framing Hollywood movies then asking for evidence to make them credible to the credulous.

GlassHalfFull
4 years ago

Hopefully people will start finding out for themselves the real reasons Russia entered Ukraine.
They only have to listen to what Putin and Lavrov have said and then look up the alternative media to counter the msm lies and propaganda.

GlassHalfFull
4 years ago
Reply to  GlassHalfFull

Let’s hope for a swift Russian victory to minimize civilian casualties and for the US, EU and NATO to finally leave Ukraine alone so that Russia and Ukraine can live side by side peacefully without foreign interference.

leek
4 years ago
Reply to  GlassHalfFull

Another who relishes the Russian brutality..
Will you cheer when they invade Latvia, or Finland too??

Mark
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

Is Russian brutality in the Ukraine somehow fundamentally different from US brutality in Iraq or British brutality in Libya?

All wars fought to achieve policy goals.

alison
alison
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Exactly, and they’re all three unjustifiable. I don’t understand why so many people who are happy to call out the first two think that Putin has some kind of unique right to topple unpleasant regimes he doesn’t like in order to advance his policy goals, at the cost of the lives of ordinary civilians (not to mention the casualties among his own military).

Mark
4 years ago
Reply to  alison

“Exactly, and they’re all three unjustifiable. “

OK and now what?

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  alison

Russian is preventing a determined Nazi genocide in Donbass – has that truth escaped you?

There are hours of validated ‘vox pop’ video materials and the bodies of dead Russian civilians killed by Ukrainian shelling since 2014.

But I suppose you will claim they are all “fake’!

Tiresome really.

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

the only thing fake is your indignation.
besides the fact that you are a russian operative in st petersburg of course.

as always: remember flight mh17….

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

no it is no different, and that makes it okay?
so there are no rules?

Draper233
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

Were you cheering Ukrainian neo-Nazis killing Russian civilians in the Donbass?

Rowan
Rowan
4 years ago
Reply to  Draper233

No doubt he was.

GlassHalfFull
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

Russian brutality?
According to the UN there has been just 351 civilian casualties.
Obviously 351 too many but Russia has been deliberately trying to protect civilian casualties at the expense of their own troops safety.
Latvia and Finland are not the same as a NATO armed fascist Ukraine who have killed thousands of civilians in the Donbass and have no reason to fear Russia.

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago
Reply to  GlassHalfFull

so either you are a russian agent or you are too ignorant to tie your shoelaces in the morning?
which is it?

as always: remember flight mh17

GlassHalfFull
4 years ago
Reply to  janvanruth

MH17 was shot down by the Ukrainian army as determined by the manufacturers of BUK missiles.

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago
Reply to  GlassHalfFull

sure buddy, whatever proof was needed for you being a russian agent you just provided it.

Aleajactaest
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

You silly Allium.

Did you enjoy your enforced CIA 2 year bioexperiment?

Read widely do you? The Grauniad, The New Statesman?

Stay on top of world news with a real time feed from the BBC, Sky News, Channel 4 heaven forefend …..

Rowan
Rowan
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

Still making friends leek, you can’t help yourself can you?

leek
4 years ago
Reply to  GlassHalfFull

Interesting that you folk will object to absolutely everything, that is covered on MSM.
Don’t you realise this?

Dale
Dale
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

I for one seek out sources which are not shot-through with prior hatred for Putin. You have your predigested tractarianism. To each his own.

ImpObs
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

Interesting that you will parrot absolutely everything, that is covered on MSM without questioning any of it, or doing any research, even when it’s laid out on a plate for you.

Don’t you realise this?

Rowan
Rowan
4 years ago
Reply to  ImpObs

Troll leek is paid not to realise.

GlassHalfFull
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

That’s because the msm is full of lies and propaganda. One example is the BBC report “Why is Russia invading Ukraine and what does Putin want?” https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56720589 In there they say “There has been no genocide in Ukraine” totally ignoring the thousands of ethnic Russian citizens killed in The Donbass by the fascist paramilitaries. In there they say “How could I be a Nazi?” said Volodymyr Zelensky. It has been shown that Zelensky is controlled by the fascist nazi loving paramilitaries in this article. https://www.mintpressnews.com/ukraine-jewish-president-zelensky-made-peace-neo-nazi-paramilitaries/279862/?fbclid=IwAR23iLerjc2kU045zjjILge1EsNnrmjtXe312KI_HnN79Bv3fhixQVucjrE In their article the BBC say “Russia then retaliated by seizing the southern region of Crimea and triggering a rebellion in the east, backing separatists who have fought Ukrainian forces in a war that has claimed 14,000 lives.” No mention of the referendum in Crimea who voted 96.7% in favour of Russia. The BBC also say “Then Mr Putin scrapped a 2015 peace deal for the east and recognised areas under rebel control as independent.” The “peace deal” was being totally ignored by the fascist Ukrainian paramilitaries and Putin needed to protect the ethnic Russians. The BBC say “he has shown he is prepared to bomb civilian areas to fulfil his goals.” Putin hasn’t used… Read more »

Rowan
Rowan
4 years ago
Reply to  GlassHalfFull

It’s the corrupt BBC, we can never expect anything resembling the truth from it.

Steven Robinson
Steven Robinson
4 years ago
Reply to  GlassHalfFull

No mention of the referendum in Crimea who voted 96.7% in favour of Russia.
Like the elections Putin and his party hold in Russia to get themselves elected. Autocrats are always very popular.

GlassHalfFull
4 years ago

That was the result of the referendum by ordinary people.

Why is it so difficult for you to understand that most ethnic Russians in Ukraine would rather have ties with Mother Russia than a US vassal state?

rtj1211
rtj1211
4 years ago

I think you will find more political parties in the Duma than you have in Congress in the USA.

Do you think that ‘free and fair’ elections deliver less diversity than ‘rigged ones’?

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago
Reply to  rtj1211

i wonder what would be the usa equivalent of alexander navalny?

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago
Reply to  GlassHalfFull

as putin said: i do not care who votes as long as i count the votes…
96,7% in a referendum that had only three possibilities to vote for:
1 in favour of russia
2 in favour of russia
3 in favour of russia
in fact it is quite remarkable that the outcome was not 100% in favour of russia.
but then again putin knows how that 100% is not that plausible…

so those planes shot down by the ukrainians aren’t russian?
so whose are they?

so we have found another russian agent.
but you better stick to the story!
it is not 14,000 lives claimed in a war but 14,000 russians killed by the ukrainians.
and we do not want to get your boss vladimir mad or do we?

GlassHalfFull
4 years ago
Reply to  janvanruth

Pathetic.

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago
Reply to  GlassHalfFull

i expected that you would not be happy to be found out.
was wlad angry with you?

Aleajactaest
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

Only been around since Jan 1st I see….

Lonely in the barracks is it?

Rowan
Rowan
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

Whoops, yet more down votes.

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  GlassHalfFull

Most will never see this – like most have still never heard of Mike Yeadon!

GlassHalfFull
4 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

Mike Yeadon occasionally comes on here if it is the same Mike Yeadon of Covid fame.

MrTea
MrTea
4 years ago

Our friends

Saudis – brutal Monarchy that oppesses their population, been bombing the snot out of Yemen for years – our response sell them more bombs

China – brutal autocracy the oppress their population, committing a genocide, still occupying Tibet – our response sell off the UK to them ASAP.

I would appear that Putin has failed to make sufficent donations to the Tory party.
£250 000 per game of tennis simply wasn’t enough.

Vxi7
Vxi7
4 years ago
Reply to  MrTea

All brands suddenly feel very responsible for the war and ignore Russian market.

Meanwhile licking china’s ass to the shiniest… And if one of the brand’s ambassador dare to say Taiwan is a country then said ambassador will be under restrictions not China…

Francis64
4 years ago

In a store today when I overheard the woman behind the till ask a female colleague how she was feeling today? The woman replied that she was feeling a bit better after her therapy yesterday.

Oh? What is the therapy for?’ came the reply. 

The situation in Ukraine ‘- she said.

Perhaps its me, maybe I just don’t understand and maybe I’m being a bit cold-hearted here – but why is this woman having therapy over a conflict thousands of miles away and so far as I can see is having little or no affect of our daily lives here in Britain – I simply don’t get it? I don’t recall needing therapy for both the Gulf Wars and I don’t recall my parents telling me that they needed therapy because of the Vietnam War or the Korean War – my grandfather served in the Navy during world war 2 escorting merchant naval vessels which meant he was always under constant threat of being torpedoed by German U-Boats – but I don’t recall him having therapy when he was back in civvy street.

I dunno? As I say – perhaps its me.

Mark
4 years ago
Reply to  Francis64

why is this woman having therapy over a conflict thousands of miles away“?

Hysteria.

leek
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

It’s probably just a made up story about the woman…

Mark
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

Perhaps, I don’t know and neither do you, but the evidence of such hysteria is all around us.

Starting with the widespread targeting of entirely innocent Russians for collective punishment for their government’s perceived misbehaviour.

Rowan
Rowan
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

Well you’d know all about that.

maggie may
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Or the price of petrol has gone up again?

Libertarianist
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Or in new money – mass formation psychosis

Rowan
Rowan
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Lot of it about, especially over the last two years.

B.F.Finlayson
4 years ago
Reply to  Francis64

Worth reading this article in Spiked for some insight into this phenomenon:
‘Ukraine is not all about you.’

Bella Donna
4 years ago
Reply to  B.F.Finlayson

Yes it was a good article highlighting how weak and silly western humanity has become.

Bella Donna
4 years ago
Reply to  Francis64

Therapy for something that is happening thousands of miles away? That in a nutshell is why the world is in the state it is. Idiocracy on steroids!

Jon Garvey
4 years ago
Reply to  Francis64

COVID showed that wall-to-wall propganda 24 hour creates its own reality: the suicides, the alcohol abuse, the children with nothing to live for – none of it produced by a virus, some by the restrictions, but most by being at home watching Fauci’s false prophecies of Armageddon.

Maybe that’s the difference from the genuine nuclear crises of the cold war – it was in the newspapaer, and described on the TV, but people then went and wrote comic songs about it. Now, you’d have expert after expert telling you just where Castro’s missiles would target were they deployed, how you’d die, how Kruschev was not listening to Kennedy, etc etc.

John Dee
4 years ago
Reply to  Francis64

Now that covid’s not such a worry, she’s noticed a bit of a vacuum in her anxiety quota?

Rowan
Rowan
4 years ago
Reply to  Francis64

Therapy and counselling both fabulous growth opportunities.

B.F.Finlayson
4 years ago

As soon as Putin’s tanks rolled across the border, why didn’t we suggest… And in a nutshell this typifies the Western mindset – shutting the stable door etc. Resolution of this conflict has nothing to do with the moment Putin’s tanks rolled into the Donbass and Ukraine, but the years and events leading up that. The moment Putin signed an offical (“long overdue” – his words) recognition of the self declared (in 2014) Donetsk and Luhansk republics (that had suffered Ukrainian state sanctioned shelling over the last 8 years) was perhaps the last possible moment for meaningful diplomacy. Instead the USA provacateur puppet Zelensky was still demanding Nukes and NATO membership! Maybe a sober analysis would also take into account the Maidan ‘revolution’ and subsequent US interference in a corrupt state (Hunter Biden anyone) that has encouraged the rise of a quasi autonomous fascist paramilitary (that itself has been heavily involved in the shelling of Russian speakers? And until the wrongly described ‘liberal democracies’ in the West take their WEF blinkers off this is not going to happen, as the last two years have proven beyond any doubt. Any article that again starts with the premise of Russia BAD West… Read more »

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago
Reply to  B.F.Finlayson

okay let me start: russia BAD west BAD.

can we now agree that any country , be it west or russia, that starts a war against another country per definition is bad?
if not, what is your definition of bad and of good?

Smelly Melly
4 years ago

Of course we the UK would never invade another country for no reason would we! Oh sorry forgot about Iraq and Blairs illegal war and the WMDs that could be deployed in 45 minutes (they couldn’t tell us what type of WMDs they were Chemical, Biological or Nuclear but they had WMDs).

I lost what little belief and trust I had left in politicians in 2003 due to the Iraq war and have been cynical and sceptical ever since.

leek
4 years ago
Reply to  Smelly Melly

And that justifies Putin’s invasion …. How???

Bella Donna
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

You obviously do not know what led up to the Ukrainian ‘invasion’ do you? Putin’s hand was forced by the West whilst the Iraq war was entirely fabricated by Blair and Bush, both of whom got away with it!

186NO
186NO
4 years ago
Reply to  Bella Donna

First part utter bollox, latter less so, tovarichiva…

Aleajactaest
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

Maybe you should change your monika to urinestream instead of leak.

John Dee
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

I’ve re-read his post and it seems that he didn’t claim that Putin’s invasion was justified. Were you perhaps reading between the lines?

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago
Reply to  John Dee

or maybe you should not interfere with a conversation you are not a part of but wait for the response to be given?

DanClarke
DanClarke
4 years ago

No confiscation of private funds during the middle east conflicts

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  DanClarke

Because US Billionaires were the beneficiares!

Moderate Radical
4 years ago

This is something I wrote on GETTR, and thought I’d share here:

America and its lapdogs like to talk about and implement ‘regime change’ in countries whose governments they regard as ‘illegitimate’. So here’s a thought experiment. Let’s say Putin wanted to implement ‘regime change’ in America, or the UK. Let’s say he cites ‘Western decadence’ in abandoning traditional values, objective truth, biological facts, traditional marriage, learning, in abusing children by denying biology/telling them they can mutilate their bodies (thus normalising mental illness), etc, etc. Let’s say Putin seeks to overthrow these ‘illegitimate regimes’ and put in their place more traditional administrations so the people in those countries can be free to live better lives. By what objective standard would we be able to say he is wrong and out of line?

John Dee
4 years ago

‘Objective standards’ tend not to do well within politics. Wrong type of soil, or something.

Moderate Radical
4 years ago
Reply to  John Dee

Which is precisely a point the thought experiment is intended to make apparent.

rtj1211
rtj1211
4 years ago

Because he might string up and execute the people who currently control the UK and the USA?!

Moderate Radical
4 years ago
Reply to  rtj1211

With respect, that misses the point. By what objective standard would the regimes of the US and UK object?

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago

simpe: by the exact same standards as that the usa et al are wrong.
the fact that the usa et al do not adhere to standards does not mean putin gets an exemption from those very standards.
to be precise: always wrong no matter what!

Moderate Radical
4 years ago
Reply to  janvanruth

And what ‘standards’ are these, exactly? If it’s so simple then why have you not articulated these standards?

Again, by what objective standard would the US and UK be able to say he is wrong and out of line?

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago

what part of : “always” is unclear as a objective standard?
there are NO circumstances that he would not be wrong.
the standard is “WRONG and there are NO exceptions.

Moderate Radical
4 years ago
Reply to  janvanruth

what part of : “always” is unclear as a objective standard?

That’s not an objective standard; it’s an assertion. Are you dense?

there are NO circumstances that he would not be wrong.

According to whom? On what authority would he be ‘wrong’ given the hypothetical?

the standard is “WRONG and there are NO exceptions.

Good grief. What is ‘wrong’ and why?

Go back and reread the thought experiment before you reply, lest you continue to make a berk of yourself.

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago

What is ‘wrong’ and why “
and thus you reformulate your question….
you can appreciate the difference, i may hope?
i predict you will die not having found the answer.
or do you really think you are the first one in the history of mankind to have put forward the question?
und ansonsten kannst du mich kreuzweise, du bloedes arschloch.

Moderate Radical
4 years ago
Reply to  janvanruth

and thus you reformulate your question…

Oh my. Yes, I had to dumb it down for someone who didn’t understand a very basic thought experiment. You tacitly admit you’re dense.

you can appreciate the difference, i may hope?

Yes, the original formulation was something any average adult could grasp, and it had to be dumbed down to accommodate a below average adult. It’s the same question formulated differently for someone struggling to grasp the problem.

i predict you will die not having found the answer.

Good heavens. Not a clever prediction. Once again you tacitly concede you are utterly ignorant. The answer is obvious to any philosophically minded, honest person.

or do you really think you are the first one in the history of mankind to have put forward the question?

Not at all, but it appears you are one of the relative few to have misunderstood the question.

und ansonsten kannst du mich kreuzweise, du bloedes arschloch.

Now now, you’re hurting my feelings.

Calm down. Take a breath and think.

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago

have you ever been diagnosed as being a narcissist?
probably not, as you are quite convinced that it is not you that is dysfunctioning, so why see a shrink?
on top of that you do have a strongly expressed superiority complex.
the two usually go together so there is nothing to worry about.
i expect you do have trouble to stay in longer lasting personal relationships. that of course is their loss not yours.
keeping your job, which you are convinced is far beneath your abilities anyway, has proved to be troublesome.
it must be really hard to live in a world where all people are so very inferior to you.

from my, fairly large, professional, experience i have learned that there is absolutely no sense in arguing with a person like you.
i also know from experience that there is only the flimsiest of possibilities that a professional can alleviate your condition.

the world will just have to endure your presence.
so i bid you a good day.

leck mich….

Moderate Radical
4 years ago
Reply to  janvanruth

have you ever been diagnosed as being a narcissist? No, dear. Why do you ask? Have you? probably not, as you are quite convinced that it is not you that is dysfunctioning, so why see a shrink? Oh how marvellous, an armchair diagnosis! I like these. This should be fun. on top of that you do have a strongly expressed superiority complex. Please explain, dear. You are aware you are just asserting stuff, aren’t you? Go deeper, dear. This is fascinating, and I’m all lug’oles. the two usually go together so there is nothing to worry about. Why would I worry, dear? Are you worried that I might be worried?  i expect you do have trouble to stay in longer lasting personal relationships. Quite the opposite, actually, but do go on, dear. You’re doing great, champ. that of course is their loss not yours. Are we engaging in projection, dear? keeping your job, which you are convinced is far beneath your abilities anyway, has proved to be troublesome. Oh my. Wrong again, dear. But do continue, things can only get better from here. it must be really hard to live in a world where all people are so very inferior… Read more »

Draper233
4 years ago

One glimmer of positivity is the relatively muted response from the likes of DeSantis regarding Ukraine.

This was a guy who was prepared to look at the bigger picture in relation to Covid and showed the courage and intelligence to go against the crowd.

It’s far more delicate this time because he’s already been called “unpatriotic” just because he hasn’t yet unreservedly condemned Putin in any meaningful way.

But nevertheless, if alternative views are presented by mainstream politicians going against the current totalitarian consensus, then the narrative will shift a bit.

I don’t hold much hope for the UK though. Unlike Covid where we at least had a cluster of Tory backbenchers sceptical about measures from the start, has any UK MP actually hinted at an alternative perspective over Ukraine?

Then again, the UK is just a US/WEF puppet anyway so probably not terribly important.

We can only hope the US let the adults back into the room sooner rather than later.

Aleajactaest
4 years ago
Reply to  Draper233

Lots of Ruskies in Florida…..

Lots of ex Eastern European types in flyover rust belt US….

DeSantis has played a blinder by keeping his powder dry unlike the Twatter population and Prog Dems/Uniparty who shot their collective spaff the minute Russia walked over the border.

Mark
4 years ago

“There’s already evidence that Western media coverage is perceived as racist – that we care less about Middle Eastern deaths because the people there don’t look like us.”

An understandable interpretation of the sheer dishonesty and irrationality of US sphere coverage and commentary. The only credible explanations of all those hysterics in our media, politics and social media ranting about “unprecedented”, “shocking” “threats to rules based order”, when they essentially couldn’t be bothered to get excited much about repeated equivalently illegal and in some cases infinitely more mass murderous US/NATO crimes of aggression in places like Iraq and Libya, would be dishonesty, stupidity or sheer ignorance.

With most, as with Lionel Shriver, it’s hard to buy dishonesty or stupidity, so we are left with ignorance – the most likely explanation imo. But if you live outside the US elite blob, malice is probably a more plausible general interpretation than a level of ignorance that must seem genuinely inexplicable to most.

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

we should have no problem to admit that we do care more about our own kind.
it is just human nature and there is nothing wrong with it.
it is evolution at work.
racism is completely natural and is in essence not different from nationalism or being a fan of a baseball club.

huxleypiggles
4 years ago

Troll alert – leek.

GlassHalfFull
4 years ago
Reply to  huxleypiggles

77th Brigade probably.

Aleajactaest
4 years ago
Reply to  GlassHalfFull

Only been here since 1st Jan.

It’s a tad weak for 77th. Doesn’t even sealion….

John Dee
4 years ago
Reply to  huxleypiggles

‘Twinned with Potato’.

Matt Mounsey
Matt Mounsey
4 years ago

We are led into ruin by the sentiments of children.

jingleballix
4 years ago

Why war? Because…….

> Macron has an election to win, and Biden has mid-terms. The WEF needs these two need to remain in place. All of the leaders of the West are now in an exclusive club. Brexit and Trump spoiled this……neither instances of populism will be allowed to happen again. The attitudes of Trudeau and Ardern tell us this plainly – democracy is already in it death throes.

> the news about the great harms that the jabs have done, are doing and will continue to do is emerging…….something is needed to keep this out of the news, and so they can tidy it all up on the quiet.

> the West want Ukraine’s natural resources and labour

> there is every chance that the West wants to blame the impending global financial collapse on Putin

> in fact, the West wants to make Putin a patsy for everything

timsk
4 years ago

If there’s anyone here who’s on board with the West’s response to the Ukraine crisis – please help me out as I’m confused as to what I’m supposed to think. . .

During the Brexit ‘debate’ – both before and after the referendum – as a brexiteer I was accused of being xenophobic (amongst many other things). Xenophobia is bad; ergo I must be a bad person. Now, I’m told that Russia is bad and anything Russian has be sanctioned, censored and cancelled. No more ads with Meercats, no more Russian vodka and no more bed time stories by Dostoevsky. I get it, anything Russian is verboten. But hold on a minute, isn’t this just naked xenophobia?

Like I say, I’m confused. In the meantime, being the bad person that I am, I’m looking forward to a plate of this for supper . . .

Russian_Salad.jpeg
Mark
4 years ago
Reply to  timsk

Xenophobia is bad; ergo I must be a bad person. Now, I’m told that Russia is bad and anything Russian has be sanctioned, censored and cancelled. No more ads with Meercats, no more Russian vodka and no more bed time stories by Dostoevsky. I get it, anything Russian is verboten. But hold on a minute, isn’t this just naked xenophobia?

We’ve always been at war with Eastasia, citizen. Report to your nearest education centre for adjustment.

Aleajactaest
4 years ago
Reply to  timsk

Ensalada Rusa…… Ooooh

John Dee
4 years ago
Reply to  Aleajactaest

I thought it was Creamed Tripe with Basil Sprinkles.

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago
Reply to  timsk

xenophobia is not bad.
it is perfectly natural to want to be amongst one’s peers.
that is why birds of a feather flock together…
it actually is evolution at work.

timsk
4 years ago
Reply to  janvanruth

Err, xenophobia and birds of a feather are not mutually exclusive, jan’! It’s entirely possible to be amongst one’s peers without having a dislike of – or prejudice against – people from other countries. 😉

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago
Reply to  timsk

not mutually exclusive?
where did i claim they were?

RickH
4 years ago

John Mearsheimer has it right in terms of the balance of aggression.

Mark
4 years ago
Reply to  RickH

One of the advantages of being a “realist” is that you don’t get as easily taken in by the touchy feely nonsense that most people are manipulated by…

PhantomOfLiberty
PhantomOfLiberty
4 years ago

They need a distraction from Covid and the vaccines – NATO/CIA etc have been goading Putin for years. They will enjoy all the social chaos they are creating in the West. Sadly, we are dealing with racketeers, and I don’t think we can interpret any fall out as purely accidental, although there are going to be elements of unpredictability.

Mark
4 years ago

Retired US Army colonel invited on mainstream US media and shocks host by telling hard truths. Hilarious.

“Maajid أبو عمّار
@MaajidNawaz

Oh I think Zelensky is a puppet & he is putting huge numbers of his own population at unnecessary risk… and quite frankly what comes out of Ukraine is debunked as lies within 24-48 hours” Retired US Army colonel Douglas MacGregor on Fox News

https://twitter.com/MaajidNawaz/status/1500057329097707521

Thanks for being with us, sir. We’ll see you again soon.”

I rather doubt it….

Moderate Radical
4 years ago

Back in 2014, a BBC correspondent ambushed the Russian President in a hallway, asking loaded questions in relation to the conflict in Eastern Ukraine.

Listen to Putins response and then listen to the BBC now drowning in their own lies.

https://gettr.com/post/pybi759e47

Jonny S.
4 years ago

Part of a speech just made by Putin allegedly

The second any country attempts to establish a no fly zone over Ukraine, even if from their own territory — to Russia, you are now a part of the conflict, endangering russian troops. And we don’t care which alliance you’re a member of at that point (NATO) The consequences will be catastrophic not just for Europe, but for the entire world – Putin

Source

https://mobile.twitter.com/ASBMilitary

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago
Reply to  Jonny S.

it is about time someone brought an end to that madman.
he clearly is threatening the world with nuclear war if he does not get his way.
in view of the situation in the world i would say fuck him and we call his bluff.
but with a demented mummy in the white house and spineless worms in the capitols of the western world i doubt it will happen.

Fireweasel
Fireweasel
4 years ago

“… imposing heavy sanctions on Russia to cripple its economy …” To more than just a little extent, the West has actually been imposing sanctions on Russia ever since the fall of the Soviet Union. The gangster Cabal that controls the West wants two blocs in Europe, the London/Washington dominated Western bloc, and the Kremlin dominated Eastern bloc – both blocs have lines of control running to the Cabal’s headquarters in the City of London and Wall Street. The Kremlin bloc was intended to be kept weak and controllable, hence NATO’s expansion up against Russia’s borders, and tight control of its economy by the City of London and Wall Street.  Two blocs like this make the populations from the Atlantic to the Bering Straits easier to control. If say the people in the Western bloc started getting uppity and made sounds about throwing-off the Cabal’s chains, the Cabal could instigate a crisis with the Eastern bloc, and in this way give the people in the Western bloc an external enemy to focus on and thereby distract them – the Cabal don’t like patriotism, but they’ll use it to keep populations in line when it suits them. Putin rose to power… Read more »

ImpObs
4 years ago
Reply to  Fireweasel

I See no difference betweent the West cabal/NWO and the BRICs cabal/NWO, they all pay the same piper IMO, it’sa false dichotomy.

Corbett makes this point better than I could:
https://corbettreport.substack.com/p/the-ukraine-crisis-what-you-need

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  Fireweasel

Very interesting assessment!

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago
Reply to  Fireweasel

as the russian army in 1941 retreated further into russia, stalin gave orders that they were to completely destroy it so the germans could not have it.
the germans learned it from the russians…..

and the rest of your piece just shows that you are about halfway down the rabbit hole.

smithey
4 years ago

Ukraine and the west have brought this on themselves. All Ukraine had to do was agree to remain neutral and not join NATO or the EU and all this could have been avoided. While war is truly awful Russia has been backed into a corner and is defending it’s interests. If the situation were reversed and Russia laid claim to Canada or Mexico or Ireland do you think the USA and U.K. would just shrug their shoulders and do nothing?

huxleypiggles
4 years ago
Reply to  smithey

Exactly.

greggsy01
greggsy01
4 years ago
Reply to  smithey

stay neutral and join EU, like Finland (I think Putin would agree to save some ties with the west). Why Finland is OK to stay neutral but Ukraine is suddenly not?

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago
Reply to  greggsy01

because ukraine is run by nazis, don’t you know?
or maybe because finland kicked the russian asses in the winter war?
but that was with the help of the nazis, to be fair.
for some reason the finnish were friendly with the germans.
might it have been because the germans were the only nation to help them when they were attacked by the predecessors of putin?

lordsnooty
4 years ago

all of the present brain farts revolve about the daft idea that Ukraine is it the north Atlantic region, that NATO is meaNT to be restricted to

smithey
4 years ago

One good thing about Covid is that the west’s reaction to it taught me among other things:- 1) there is no free press in the west 2) there is no freedom in the west 3) governments and core institutions from the civil service to universities and schools to the media are rotten to the core 4) governments and media lie 5) governments do not act for the people or have their best interests at heart 6) voting is a waste of time 7) always do your own research and do not believe anything the media or the government tell you If we had no had Covid and my belief in my county and it’s institutions had not been shown to the core I would probably have bought the media line about Ukraine I.e big nasty bully Putin suddenly and for no reason decided to pick on poor innocent defenceless Ukraine. As it is I have done my own research and understand how the west has been expanding it’s influence into Russia’s sphere and destabilising the fine balance of power which has ensured peace since the Cold War. What Russia is doing is the inevitable consequence of this and Zelensky is… Read more »

Victoria
4 years ago
Reply to  smithey

Great post

iane
iane
4 years ago
Reply to  smithey

Well, I am with you, but I have been there ever since the days of Bliar. {Mind you, I am now a golden(-ish) oldie!}

ImpObs
4 years ago
Reply to  smithey

We should be inserting the IMF into the equation when we talk about who’s useful idiot the main players act for. The International Monetary Fund has approved a $17bn two-yearloan programme for Ukraine, as Kiev continues to fight pro-Moscowseparatists in the east of the country.Wednesday’s action by the IMF’s 24-member executive board, whichincludes representatives from Russia and the United States, opens theway for an immediate release of $3.2bn to Ukraine https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2014/5/1/ukraine-to-get-17bn-in-imf-loans This deal was stuck on the 1st May 2014, it was conditional on the Ukranian government quelling the protests by seperatists who refused to recognise the legitimacy of the puppet government installed after the coup. “Pro-Moscow” is inaccurate, they voted over 97% in favour of becomming an independant republic. The horrors of the Trade Union House, where demonstrators were encouraged inside by agent-provocateurs of the far right nationalists, to be tortured, raped, and set on fire, happened on the 2nd May 2014. Eye witnesses claimed over 100 people were murdered, media reports lower numbers, but nobody really knows the total because there was never an investigation, and nobody was held responsible. The IMF loan subsiquently went though. It is reported Zelensky has accumulated $1.2 billion in the Dresdner Bank… Read more »

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago
Reply to  ImpObs

it is reported that you are a gullible fool.
proof?
there never was a vote for an independent republic…..

and as always: remember flight mh17.were on july 17th 2014, 293 foreign air travellers were murdered by russian troops acting from ukrainian territory.

JamesM
JamesM
4 years ago

Volodymyr Zelenskyy has criticised NATO for failing to impose a no-fly zone over Ukraine. “Starting from today everyone who dies will die because of you as well, because of your weakness, because of your disunity.” Leaving aside the tone of ingratitude, this statement also suggests Zelenskyy is quite happy to start WWIII. Quite simply, this man is dangerous and Johnson needs to be very careful who he cozies up to – for all our sakes.

smithey
4 years ago
Reply to  JamesM

Yeap Zelenskyy is an attention seeking warmonger who had a hand in starting this whole thing by costing up to the west.

leek
4 years ago
Reply to  JamesM

Volodymyr Zelenskyy is understandably upset to see his fellow Ukrainians invaded and murdered, while the west does nothing that will make much of a difference. Sure sanctions will eventually have some impact on the key figures in Russia and the economy, but that won’t stop the missiles and tanks.

Interesting that you would not allocate blame for WW3 to the person threatening the nukes.

Jon Garvey
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

Sounds like the policy of mutually assured destruction, which we followed for 50 years during the Cold War. The threat of nuclear weapons is (I learned as a child) the ultimate deterrent to war.

Beowulf
Beowulf
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

The West has done enough all ready since it’s aggressive move eastwards is the cause of Putin’s invasion.

As for Zelenskyy, he hasn’t looked that upset during the last eight years while his forces shelled and killed his fellow Ukrainians – perhaps because the were Russian speakers?

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  Beowulf

So many Ukrainians are Russian speakers!

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

as are you…

Aleajactaest
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

Are you still fuck here?

JamesM
JamesM
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

Well, as John Lydon once said: no one is innocent.  It is naive to think that the appalling situation in Ukraine is entirely of Putin’s making.

ImpObs
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

Leek, please get some perspective

9 facts that prove the U S is behind Ukraine crisis (2014) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZiJRnaom_E

GRAPHIC WARNING (NSFW) but Leek needs to see it, since his recalcitrance condones it.
https://uprootedpalestinians.wordpress.com/2014/05/11/neo-nazi-executions-of-unarmed-civilians-in-odessa-graphic-warning/

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  leek

Superficial in the extreme.

Not even a convincing presentation of the Stooge CIA-Nuland Ukrainan Government’s ‘position’.

Tell us all about the Azov battalion

186NO
186NO
4 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

Groundhog Above Day, yawn yawn; Pavlov’s Dogs to a brain neutered apologist of a genocidal gangster. Tell everyone of the provenance of the “swastika”….do something useful before you medication kicks in.

MikeAustin
4 years ago

“Unintended consequencies” At the start of the covid ‘pandemic’, I tended towards the opinion that actions were mistaken. Gradually, as time went by and it was clear that there was no pandemic, a plan seemed to emerge. The censoring of alternative views and the propaganda of government and mainstream media showed that there was intention behind it. It all pointed towards jabs and jab passports, aka digital IDs. It was the plan of Mr Global and the WEF. I poo-pooed all that at the beginning as conspiracy theory, but now I see the same agenda. I do not trust what we are being told about Ukraine. However, the narrative increases angst in the population and will cause food and energy sources. This will lead to rationing and rationing cards, aka digital IDs. Exactly the same intention is easy to see from exactly the same perpetrators – those ‘perpetual traitors’ that have no interest in the welfare of the population. The goal is to move to a digital banking system using digital IDs and total control. We see this in the plan for NHSX, where the NHS is moving to an online system without the usual GPs. The plan is available… Read more »

kate
kate
4 years ago
Reply to  MikeAustin

I agree, this is just the next step in the financial reset and the WEF’s plans.

Having created an international emergency, again pumped up by lying media reports, they will find it easy to get compliance for severe curtailments of our liberties.
It is a progression of steps in the fear campaign In the context of hysterical media reports it is difficult to remember that we are not at war with Russia and Ukraine is not an ally, or in NATO. There is no national security issue here.
Also that Russia has limited goals in its incursion into Ukraine which it expressed clearly prior to moving in.

It will be very hard to get people to realise what is happening to them and see through the fearmongering, the tactic is to keep us destabilised and in a state of shock.

Deadly virus – nuclear attack!
Alien invasion from space – is that next?

This is really a covert attack by the elites on the West and its freedoms, concealed under the guise of “Russian aggression”

MikeAustin
4 years ago
Reply to  kate

Whether it is ‘global warning’, a ‘virus’, a ‘foreign enemy’, the action taken is always to the detriment of the people, their health, rights and freedoms.
The pattern is clear.