Should We Welcome the Johnny-Come-Latelies to the Sceptical Fold?

There follows a guest post by Dr. David McGrogan, an Associate Professor at Northumbria Law School, about whether the OGs of the lockdown sceptics’ movement should welcome repentant sinners or shun them as bandwagon jumpers.

At the end of March 2020, I saw an opinion poll result (I wish I could remember where) which indicated 93% of population of the U.K. were in favour of the lockdown that had just been introduced.

I was in the other 7%. In future years, I’ll have to find some way to convey to my kids the nature of that feeling – the strange combination of befuddlement and disappointment that results from watching everybody you know not only going completely mad, but convincing themselves they are being virtuous in doing so. It was like being a lemming, watching its thousands of brethren suddenly getting together and flinging themselves off the nearest cliff into the broiling sea as though it was the most natural and sensible thing to do in all the world. I just couldn’t fathom that anybody might think this bizarre experiment would work – and yet it seemed everybody did. In retrospect, of course, the very unanimity and certainty with which people approached lockdown was itself indicative that something very strange was going on in those heady days of spring 2020. What complex public policy decision in a liberal democracy ever achieves 93% approval in an opinion poll? The truth is, this had nothing to do with reasoned ‘opinion’. It was mass panic.

Thankfully, the national mood is now very different. I don’t believe that things have swung, or ever will swing, to near unanimity against lockdown. But it is now ever more common to encounter the sentiment, ‘Never again.’ People who were zealously in favour of Lockdown 1, Lockdown 2, and Lockdown 3 are now repenting in their droves. The question for us hardened sceptics – the Spartans, the Immortals, the Originals, the Old Guard – is what to do with these prodigal sons and daughters. Do we welcome them with open arms, fatted calf at the ready? Or do we churlishly dismiss them from our doors as accomplices in what will inevitably come to be seen as one of the worst public policy mistakes in history?

The truth of the matter is, we have to think strategically. There must never be another lockdown, in any circumstance. The consequences for our society, our children, our communities, would be too severe. This foolish, inhumane policy must forever be consigned to oblivion. And in order to ensure that it is, we need as broad a coalition of the public as possible. At the time of the first lockdown, I remember thinking that all political differences – left and right, Labour and Conservative, Leave and Remain – were completely irrelevant when set against the division between pro- and anti-lockdown. If you were against lockdowns, you were one of the good guys, whether you were Giorgio Agamben or James Delingpole. And this mode of thinking, I believe, still has to apply, and apply in perpetuity. Whatever one’s background, and whatever one thought in 2020-21, if you would be against the reintroduction of Covid restrictions in the future, you are in the right tent. You can be in the gang and you can sit at the table. We need you.

This will require some gritting of teeth, no doubt. If you, like me, were always against lockdowns, it is galling to say the least to now be told things (“Not all Covid deaths are deaths ‘from’ Covid”, “Not everybody who is hospitalised ‘with’ Covid is being primarily treated for Covid”, etc.) that one has known about since March 2020. It is profoundly irritating to be told “We just have to live with it now” when all you ever wanted was for that to be the case. It is exasperating to have to accept that even those who have come to adopt an anti-lockdown position will probably always think the first lockdown was a) necessary and b) ‘worked’. I understand all that perfectly well. But the task now is to focus on the bigger picture: changing what I am compelled to call ‘hearts and minds’ so as to make completely sure that lockdown never, ever happens again.

Stop Press: Dan Hannan has a good piece in the Telegraph praising those who called the lockdowns right back in March of 2020.

Few commentators came out against the restrictions in March 2020, among them: Toby Young, Fraser Nelson, Jonathan Sumption, Matthew Parris, Freddie Sayers, Janet Daley, Julia Hartley-Brewer, James Delingpole, Peter Hitchens, Ross Clark and, soon afterwards, Allison Pearson.

Back in that sun-drenched, terrified, illiberal spring, no dissent was permitted. Even to point out that an alternative approach was possible – and visible in Sweden – was to court vilification. When Toby Young wrote that we habitually did put a value on human life via the recognised formula for calculating quality-adjusted life-years, that we used it whenever medical interventions were proposed, and that we should apply the same test to lockdowns, he became a national hate figure, howled down as some sort of eugenicist.

The odium was overwhelmingly one-way. Lockdown sceptics did not respond by accusing their opponents of aiming to destroy children’s education, or of being indifferent to mental illness, or of wanting others to die of cancer. Nor did they accuse them of being “anti-science”.

Worth reading in full.

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Annie
4 years ago

A convert is a convert, no matter how tardy.
Sanity is sanity, no matter how long you were mad for.
Welcome them all.

But never forget.

JordanMM
JordanMM
4 years ago
Reply to  Annie

ideally we need to expand the movement so that those who now believe that lockdowns should stop also see that even the first lockdown wasn’t necessary as the numbers were already coming down. Otherwise the initial knee jerk reaction to the next pandemic will be to lockdown again. Any ideas on how to do that?

crisisgarden
4 years ago
Reply to  JordanMM

The only thing we can do is to make an oath to ourselves that we will never comply with any state sanctioned public health measure ever again, no matter how trivial or expedient. We can guide others towards personal freedom but only truly claim it for ourselves I think.

186NO
186NO
4 years ago
Reply to  crisisgarden

“Truth and Reconciliation, but Alienation of those who inflicted the Panic”

adamcollyer
adamcollyer
4 years ago
Reply to  186NO

Exactly right. Ordinary people who were terrorised into compliance should be welcomed and comforted. But the ones who deliberately drove the panic – they really do need to be held to account publicly, preferably with prosecutions.

TeddyT
TeddyT
4 years ago
Reply to  adamcollyer

That would annihilate the MSM.

siamdave
siamdave
4 years ago
Reply to  186NO

alienation hell, the rest of their lives in some high max prison at least for the pretty much incalculable damage they inflicted

Alter Ego
Alter Ego
4 years ago
Reply to  JordanMM

The toll of “vaccine” injuries and deaths is rising. Once people wonder how they were persuaded to have themselves and their children injected, they might be willing to consider the tactics of coercion and indoctrination (like lockdown and masking).

Milo
Milo
4 years ago
Reply to  Alter Ego

And the vaccines were sold as “the way out of lockdown” and even on GB news you will hear stuff along the lines of “we don’t need to lock down again because the vaccine roll out was so efficient and successful and the UK is ahead of the rest of the world in that.” And a lot of people who don’t advocate locking down again are very pro the vaccine and do not acknowledge that the vaccine was only possible because of the fraud involved in the suppression of the early, safe and effective treatments, and the cancellation and besmirching of the reputations of those who advocated their use. Nor do they fully appreciate the harms the vaccines have done or will do in the future, the extent of which can only be guessed at. While I believe that the sinner who repents should be accepted into the fold, there will always be a question mark as far as I am concerned about 2 things A) the Jeremy Vine type – in a very good position to KNOW BETTER but still advocated lock us up harder, for longer, at the first excuse – hard to forgive someone like him saying… Read more »

thefoostybadger
thefoostybadger
4 years ago
Reply to  Annie

Except that they may not be converts in the true sense of the word, simply people with enough insight to recognise the tide turning and distance themselves from their previous pronouncements.

For me, some of the things said by MSM figures throughout this, inciting hatred and mockery against the sceptical is unforgiveable.

AND you can just see Vine and co queing up to do it all over again next time.

Edit @stewart puts it much better than I could, further down the page.

disgruntled246
disgruntled246
4 years ago

Yes there is a lot of back-side covering going on.
Just as from June 1944 onwards the entire population of France had been in the Resistance.

John Dee
4 years ago
Reply to  disgruntled246

Just how do asses go about ass-covering?

CovidiotAntiMasker
CovidiotAntiMasker
4 years ago
Reply to  John Dee

By pretending that we’ve jabbed our way to freedom, just need to get all the kids injected now. https://www.stalbansreview.co.uk/news/19900595.plans-pipeline-vaccinate-primary-school-children/

eastender53
4 years ago
Reply to  John Dee

With a mask!

DevonBlueBoy
DevonBlueBoy
4 years ago
Reply to  John Dee

Especially an ass the size of Vine

X - In Search of Space
X - In Search of Space
4 years ago

With you.

Seeing the light, repentance, converts ….

Thing is – and to be wary/mindful of – it is not that sense has prevailed as such.

People have not seen the light, insofar as their eyes have remained tightly shut – but a light (growing stronger) has been switched on, and this light penetrates the eyelids.

People are not having a mass epiphany, or something. These people lack the ability to ‘move’ of their own volition; they are as tiny sea creatures unable to resist the tide – now being carried back with the tide, as they were carried along when the tide went out.

Maybe this is not entirely so in every case, but in the main I believe it is.

So, while it has to be that these are ‘welcomed aboard’, they will never truly be part of the crew.

Milo
Milo
4 years ago

‘welcomed aboard’, they will never truly be part of the crew.”

Nails it!

CGL
CGL
4 years ago
Reply to  Annie

I don’t know when it comes to Vine whether this applies. He was tweeting way back in 2020 about the situation between 2 states in Australia, where 4 babies had died because they needed to cross a state line to get the treatment that one hospital could offer them in order to save their lives. But they weren’t allowed to get there. He was obviously as horrified as we all were that this could be allowed to happen. He clearly understood that the whole situation was wrong.
And then he remembered his pay cheque, and got back in line. No principles at all, except money.

Mark
4 years ago
Reply to  Annie

But the “just welcome them all” trope is annoyingly simplistic. Simplistic because the reality is there are times and cases where “forgive and forget” welcoming is appropriate, and times when it is not, and many (perhaps most) where it is to some extent appropriate but only up to a point. Annoyingly so because it will inevitably be used as a hammer to beat at those who point out the latter occasions. One basic fallacy is the idea that every one is coming over to our side. Even leaving out the fact that “our side” covers a multitude of positions, the reality is that most are coming to the position that mandates are wrong and that lockdowns are now wrong – relatively few so far are accepting that the whole panic was wrong in March 2020 and that lockdowns and mandates must be forbidden from the toolbox of state policy forever, along with behavioural and opinion and speech manipulation. With family a different approach is suitable than with friends, and a different approach again is appropriate for public figures. One of the problems is dealing with the unprincipled, who switch from one side to the other according to opportunity or momentary… Read more »

dante
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Very well said Mark. In order for this never to happen again, we must hold those who shouted loudest accountable. The MSM in particular are hugely to blame, and there needs to be a ‘public discussion’ and debate about the way in which the MSM have operated hand in glove with Government. I admit I am still very angry, and feel let down by most of my fellow citizens. That feeling of utter disbelief and dismay at what was, and STILL IS happening around me will haunt me forever. I do not want my children to ever live through anything like this ever again. So I am not ready to just accept these folk into the fold. I understand that they were scared out of their wits and under mass formation, but if they are starting to wake up now, they need to seriously reflect on what they were actively engaging in. That’s the only way for this never to happen again. We need to show them the insanity of their actions, people tend to disassociate themselves for negative actions.. I didn’t do that.. close off children’s playgrounds, follow arrows around a supermarket, etc etc Just to add, I still… Read more »

helenf
4 years ago
Reply to  dante

Agreed. Many people, possibly most, will go to great psychological lengths and employ all sorts of defences from denial to dissociation to projection to outright lying to avoid feeling a deep sense of humiliation, guilt, shame, or stupidity. Particularly when it comes to admitting they’ve not only harmed themselves, but they’ve harmed their children too. Don’t expect too many people to come round to admitting that ALL of it (the lockdowns, the vaccinations, the changes to the law and the curtailing of people’s rights, the fines, the masks the testing etc etc) was not only unnecessary but profoundly harmful on both individual and societal levels, and by going along with it without even a shred of resistance they are complicit in that harm. Any shame they do feel is absolutely justified, and I for one have no sympathy for them. They have helped to ruin the UK and our foreseeable future.

CovidiotAntiMasker
CovidiotAntiMasker
4 years ago
Reply to  helenf

Yes, as the saying goes,”It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled”.

186NO
186NO
4 years ago
Reply to  dante

Dante, You have read my mind …I could not put “it” more succinctly, especially your comments about your children. Life for me is ALL about Family and I struggle to think in anything but a very very angry and vindictive manner towards those who have agreed to subject “innocent” children to this entire “Panic”…but then “we” have to have some compassion surely? We should not commit the same moral “crime” as those we don’t appreciate for doing the exact same thing – having no compassion?

czerwonadupa
czerwonadupa
4 years ago
Reply to  dante

There will be no recantation from the BBC or Guardian, the Gestapo and Stormtroopers of Lockdown.

X - In Search of Space
X - In Search of Space
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Very wise words Mark.

DevonBlueBoy
DevonBlueBoy
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

They’re publicity mercenaries which is why they are ‘seeing the light’ now. But if the Establishment goes down the ‘let’s act like Nazis’ route again they’ll all be hanging on the approved narrative coat tails once again

186NO
186NO
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

I agree, but I would caution against thinking in terms of “sides” – just like in the Vietnam conflict, where the US found that “sides” was a very blurred distinction adopted at their peril – in reality there are no sides; “We, the People” have ALL been affected to a lesser or greater degree, and some will never understand that because they paid the “ultimate” price as a direct consequence of the “Panic”.

I would lie to propose the “Profumo Award” to all those instigators, proponents and deliverers of the “Panic” if they can demonstrate a tad of moral courage, admit they were wrong BUT then devote themselves to helping, in some way, those people damaged by their complicity – the long term adverse effects of these jabs may turn out to be less harmful but I sincerely doubt it from the testimony, knowledge and experience of clinicians in the field. It would be uplifting to see that contrition take hold – the sceptical cynic part of me does not hold out much hope.

Steven Robinson
Steven Robinson
4 years ago
Reply to  Annie

The trouble is, the willingness to go into lockdown and abandon everything western civilisation stood for was a symptom of a much deeper malaise. Some are waking up to the catastrophic harm, but few are curing themselves of the underlying malaise – the infantile faith in the Big State to be our mummy and daddy, the addiction to self-righteous ways of thinking, the belief that technology can better created Nature and solve all problems, the moral vacuum at the heart of politics and all society.

Milo
Milo
4 years ago

I agree – my experience of it was that so many people of my acquaintance actively welcomed it (lockdown 1) – the weather was good, it was like an extended paid holiday, time with the kids, working from home in their pyjamas (“I got so much more done in much less time than I would from the office – WLT work from home for ever”), time to take up new hobbies (‘baking banana bread’), got on with the gardening and the DIY, the benefits of being furloughed…. I could go on…..

Gefion
Gefion
4 years ago
Reply to  Milo

It was all a bit of a lark for quite a few people. The MSM encouraged it at every turn – recipes, gardening tips, we’re all in it together etc. The weather made it acceptable and if you were paid a salary) as opposed to being self-employed or in the hospitality trade then there was a lot to like. Those more unfortunate just had to get on with it at great cost to their health.

X - In Search of Space
X - In Search of Space
4 years ago

It is so sad. My brothers and my sister, each pro mask, ‘vaccine’ and completely fine with jabbing and the call for young ones to be offered up to the altar of pharma trials.

I won’t disown them, but I regard my siblings now as forever very different people to me. This can not be undone – and it is quite profound. It’s like I have had something rudely taken from me.

Osobowy
4 years ago

I know what you mean. My parents and my sister are all invested fully and completely in the covid cult.

This was what my sister posted on Facebook yesterday and it broke my heart. I feel deeply alienated from my entire family

Screenshot_20220205_023806.jpg
Gefion
Gefion
4 years ago
Reply to  Osobowy

That’s really sad. I’m so sorry for you. There are times when having no close family (apart from my OH and children) is a very acceptable state of affairs.

Osobowy
4 years ago
Reply to  Gefion

What’s OH, by the way? I haven’t been able to work it out.

Gefion
Gefion
4 years ago
Reply to  Osobowy

Other half… In my case my husband!

Osobowy
4 years ago
Reply to  Gefion

Aha! Thanks for the clarification – I just couldn’t work it out. I’ve been thinking about your comment “There’s a time when having no close family is a very acceptable state of affairs.” I have to agree. This would have been much more of a struggle if I had to interact with them regularly. I’ve decided to put it all out of my mind as best I can as it does me no favours knowing that my family is completely brainwashed. I don’t plan on having anymore communications with them unless I see some evidence they’ve started to wake up.

Gefion
Gefion
4 years ago
Reply to  Osobowy

I had a hard time dealing with elderly relatives over quite a few years and learned to practise “benign acceptance” ie say nothing but acknowledge inwardly that they are irritating/stupid/wrong/deluded/fill in the blank. Change the subject as soon as you can. It’s hard to do at first but gets easier and doesn’t lead to arguments. Accept what you can’t change and try to let it wash over you. It’s tough really but possible.

Milo
Milo
4 years ago
Reply to  Osobowy

Yes – I can empathise fully with you. I am the only outlier in my whole extended family – they are all fully fledged cult members and it takes a huge amount of work on my part plus a lot of gritting of teeth to maintain my relationships with them.

I too have family in France and my youngest nephew was the same when he turned 12 – all I could do was pray that he would be ok – all my nephews are super sporty, and I live in dread of the news of one of them collapsing on the football or rugby pitch with myocarditis.

Osobowy
4 years ago
Reply to  Milo

Thanks for your reply. I know there’s other people like me out there, but it’s a big deal for me to hear from them and know they exist.

I’ve followed your comments elsewhere, Milo. You’re a good guy and I enjoy reading what you have to say.

I’m just going to try my level best to forget about my family. They’re all off in the Lala land of the cult and I don’t have anything more to say to them. It just leads to arguments anyway. It’s a massive emotional drain with no result. The family I knew doesn’t exist anymore.

Gefion
Gefion
4 years ago
Reply to  Osobowy

It is very sad when you can no longer have reasonable conversations with your family. I only have my adult children and my husband who’s slowly changing his mind about LD but pretending he was always against it and not having a third vaccination as now he’s not sure about it all… Adult children are all vaccinated and one of them, who lives in Spain, did phone and plead with me to get vaccinated – I haven’t and don’t intend to. Another of them is getting married soon and hopes to have children but I’m concerned they won’t be able to as they’re both vaccinated to the hilt. I bite my tongue but am grateful for sites like this where I know there are other people who are going through the same scenarios. We have to stay strong but it’s draining as you say. Best wishes.

Osobowy
4 years ago
Reply to  Gefion

Thanks Gefion. It is really important that we can connect here. I don’t have children and I can’t claim to know what you feel or what you’ve had to deal with. It must be hard having a kid on the phone begging you to come to Satan.

Stay strong and stay here. For now, we’ve got this!

Watch the top article! I’m gonna post some good stuff there!

Cerulean
Cerulean
4 years ago

Thank you Steve.
My feelings exactly.

There’s a sickness at the heart of society and it’s nothing to do with Covid.

186NO
186NO
4 years ago

Very well said; I hope those so afflicted get to have their “Colonel Nicholson” moment..without the Bridge blowing up in their faces…

But “it is not over” yet…

mojo
mojo
4 years ago
Reply to  Annie

Wrong. We must always be aware of those who have no moral compass or conviction to truth. Look how Brexit has been destroyed. We voted to leave the EU which meant controlled borders, low taxation, taking our rightful fisheries back and Repairing our marine environment. Leaving the EU meant no more ECJ or Arrest Warrant. No more sending money to foreign politicians to waste on war.

what did we get…..the same deckchairs rearranged because they said they had understood our Vote and would honour it. But they haven’t honoured it. They are creating policies to break up the UK which was always an EU dream. We have mire immigration than ever and our judiciary is itself to European Elite Club. Our Common Law which protected the common people is being ransacked and our freedom being stolen.

WAKE UP

186NO
186NO
4 years ago
Reply to  Annie

“We will remember THOSE WHO COMPLIED”

Tom Blackburn
4 years ago

“repenting in their droves”

Can’t think of one person who has tbh. Not one, worldwide.

Paul B
4 years ago
Reply to  Tom Blackburn

Omicron has allowed them to claim victory, lockdown worked against Delta and with Omi is no longer needed they claim. There’s plenty of evidence otherwise that LD was the wrong decision but they will just shuffle those pages to the back and carry on.

sophie123
4 years ago
Reply to  Paul B

Very true

CynicalRealist
4 years ago
Reply to  Paul B

Yes, that and the clotshots – even now a large proportion (probably a significant majority) of the population remains convinced that these are “safe and effective” and that because of them lockdowns are no longer such a necessary response.

Ron Smith
Ron Smith
4 years ago
Reply to  Paul B

They are still banging the drum for the jab!

Gefion
Gefion
4 years ago
Reply to  Ron Smith

Aren’t they just??? As many as recommended and ASAP.

Dodgy Geezer
Dodgy Geezer
4 years ago
Reply to  Tom Blackburn

No. They will instead explain how right they were to do whatever they did…

Mark
4 years ago
Reply to  Tom Blackburn

Jordan Peterson?

Here’s the deal, I’ll get the vaccine, you fucking leave me alone. And did that work? No! So, stupid me.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1458462822522753025

dante
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Jordan Peterson is a rare breed, he has the strength of character to admit when he was wrong, not many like him sadly.

X - In Search of Space
X - In Search of Space
4 years ago
Reply to  dante

I, for one, very much admire and respect Jordan Peterson.

186NO
186NO
4 years ago

Me too; he is a very deep thinker and manifestly “sincere according to truth”, imho of course.

mm99
mm99
4 years ago
Reply to  Tom Blackburn

Yes, it strikes me more as a case of pivoting than anything else.

Does anyone have any good examples?

CynicalRealist
4 years ago
Reply to  mm99

I think the big difference is between those who admit that they were wrong from the start until whenever they reaslised this (they do exist, but there aren’t many of them), and those who say that lockdowns are no longer necessary because of virus mutation making it milder and/or because of the “safe and effective” clotshots. This (large) latter group are ripe for more bedwetting next time the government starts pushing propaganda about the next “deadly” virus.

186NO
186NO
4 years ago
Reply to  mm99

Would it not be great for certain currently malevolent billionaires to have some kind of Damascene conversion and devote their ill gotten gains to repair the damage they have inflicted – rose tinted view for sure; but I think a full on psyops campaign should be started and directed at them; use what they have weaponised AGAINST them, convert what they see as their strength in tp a weakness. I would start with pictures of injectees with a needle being stuck in their arms ( I initial typed children but that might be OTT) on one side of the poster and a lockdown socially distanced funeral behind a giant plastic screen with family members looking on with “Don’t tell me this did not happen” and quoting VAERS/Yellow Card/Eurosurveillance data ..

As a test of the MSM’s contrition, would it not be great to see them accept full page spreads of some of the mocked up posters seen on this blog, paid by crowdfunding ( but not via GFM…..) or a sceptic with deep pockets, or GB News…

Osobowy
4 years ago
Reply to  Tom Blackburn

This was precisely my thought. Of all my family and close friends, I can’t think of a one who has changed their point of view. And the struggle is sharpening most recently with the fracturing of relationships. They are all focused on what a hero Neil Young and Joni Mitchell are for demanding more censorship and they are screaming for the extremist truckers freedom rally to be ended post-haste. In my personal life, I have not seen any evidence of what the writer is discussing. And the longer this goes on, the more remote the likelihood of forgiveness being possible. Society is slipping into full-blown Nazism and I’m witnessing it in those who I have held near and dear. But I can’t save those who don’t want saying and as their positions become increasingly criminal, forgiving and forgetting because ever more practicable. I think for a lot of us, this is deeply personal, and it’s not so simple as forgive and forget. And what forgiveness is possible for people who don’t even see the immorality and illiberal ism of their actions and behaviour. As for forgetting, we’ve just about completely Nazi Germany, which is why it has suddenly become possible… Read more »

Dodgy Geezer
Dodgy Geezer
4 years ago

This effect is nothing new. Since the dawn of history humans have gone mad in droves, done stupid things as a mob, then slowly and shamefacedly repented, returned home, tried to forget about it and then repeated the process in a few years time.

Charlie Mackay wrote an excellent book about it in 1840 – “Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds”. We didn’t learn from that, and we won’t learn from this.

People supported the South Sea Bubble and the Darien scheme. People are still madly supporting the belief that CO2 is causing Global Warming, in spite of data showing the opposite. People are supporting insane woke political decisions. People will keep doing stupid things until they die, and the next generation will go on to repeat this. It’s what being a human is all about…

sophie123
4 years ago
Reply to  Dodgy Geezer

I bought this book back in 2001 or so, after the dot com crash. This was another streak of lunacy that I never understood.

I need to find a way to profit from this madness better, as I seem strangely unsusceptible to it.

Gregoryno6
4 years ago
Reply to  sophie123

The trick is to see which particular madness is coming, and be there selling tickets when it arrives.

crisisgarden
4 years ago
Reply to  sophie123

Ha know exactly what you mean. I think there’s a decent sized population of sceptics in the dystopian new world though; I suppose that’s where efforts in enterprise need to be focused!

timsk
4 years ago
Reply to  Dodgy Geezer

Charlie Mackay wrote an excellent book about it in 1840 – “Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds”.

The key quote that’s germane to your post is, I think, this one:
“Men, think in herds; they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.”

Unutterably Pistoff
Unutterably Pistoff
4 years ago
Reply to  Dodgy Geezer

You’ve reminded me (across 50 years) of “Crowds and Power” by Elias Canetti. It is extraordinary. From Wikipedia: “… it reads like a manual written by someone outside the human race explaining to another outsider in concise and highly metaphoric language how people form mobs and manipulate power” … “seething with anger” (from Wikipedia).

Osobowy
4 years ago

Thanks! I’m going to give that a read!

sophie123
4 years ago

I’ll “forgive” them for expediency’s sake, but deep down I will always despise them…even the ones I love, who implied I was the nutter back in March 2020, and know I was right now….there’s something in me now that makes me think that they’re a fool and not to be trusted in a crisis.

I can count on one hand the people in real life who’ve been with me since the start. Those few have gone up immeasurably in my estimation.

Deborah T
Deborah T
4 years ago
Reply to  sophie123

Two of my siblings put up posts clearly directed at me, talking of ‘Covid deniers’ and those who ‘don’t care about old people’.

sophie123
4 years ago
Reply to  Deborah T

Fortunately, scepticism is genetic in my family. Mother, sister, both brothers…we all thought it was bollocks.

My mother was a vaccine believer though (until last week, she’s suddenly woken up from that), and my sister took it “to go on holiday”, and doesn’t care about the risk fo side effects.

It’s my husband who has disappointed somewhat. He thought I was a loony at first. For about 2-3 weeks. He very quickly came around (fortunately for him, I think it might have been divorce otherwise), but he wears masks (because it’s the law), and got vaccinated to go skiing. He glazed over when I try to explain ADE to him, and why we needed to wait 2-3 years before we knew how much of a risk it would be (and this was a year ago…before we knew how dangerous the vaccines were even without ADE).

He may not be going skiing anyway now because he has tested positive AGAIN and so has my son. HAHAHA. I’m trying hard not to say “told you so”. Neither is unwell.

Deborah T
Deborah T
4 years ago
Reply to  sophie123

‘Neither is unwell’. Of course 🙂 Very best wishes. In my immediate family, husband and adult daughter feel as I do. Adult son doesn’t. It’s been very difficult, and has affected our relationship, to my great unhappiness, and his too….

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  Deborah T

And it continues. Only a couple of weeks ago my grown son and daughter were questioning the mental health of my wife, their sister, and me because we wanted to wait until 2023 when clinical trials of the mRNA drugs were completed.

They are utterly blind to the evidence emerging that the whole thing was a huge mistake (deliberate or otherwise) and they hold the same opinion over climate change.

Whilst my wife is a senior health professional and academic, my daughter is a very well qualified scientist who has swallowed the whole thing, hook, line and sinker.

It has similarly affected our relationships, however, I’m certain it will fade into the distance with time, especially when the mainstream begin backpedalling.

Few recognise that Thalidomide represented a sea change in the approach to medicine safety, and is the very reason clinical trials take so long and are so detailed.

Whilst I agree the clinical trial process could probably benefit from concurrent studies instead of the traditional sequential process, no one will ever convince me that 10 years of clinical trials can be crammed into a few months.

Dodderydude
Dodderydude
4 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

“Whilst I agree the clinical trial process could probably benefit from concurrent studies instead of the traditional sequential process, no one will ever convince me that 10 years of clinical trials can be crammed into a few months” The argument for [10] years of clinical trials is far simpler than this. It is not a matter of the numbers and complexities of the clinical trials required. The point is that every individual person in the initial trial phase (including placebo recipients) would in the past have been monitored over that [10] year period in order to identify any warning signals occurring within that whole time frame; before taking the risk of rolling out the vaccine (or whatever medical treatment is being developed) for use in the wider population. . As well as providing the opportunity to identify short-,mid-, and long-term effects, it also allows for any other more obscurely caused adverse effects to come to light e.g. drug-drug interactions. Also, after a few years, might there be more cases of cancer or other illnesses in the patients receiving the true vaccine than in the placebo group? All these things have to be evaluated and, unless this is done properly and… Read more »

Dodderydude
Dodderydude
4 years ago
Reply to  Dodderydude

Should add that, with regards to the question of an extended trial period, there is particularly importantly the need to monitor such things as the physical, metabolic, genetic and mental impact on children born to anyone who has had the vaccine, some of the adverse signs of which might not become evident until the children reach a certain age.

Milo
Milo
4 years ago
Reply to  Dodderydude

excellent posts DD – thanks for the explanation – will be useful when trying to explain to the “rush to jab” fanatics why I am waiting.!

LMS2
4 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

no one will ever convince me that 10 years of clinical trials can be crammed into a few months.”

my thoughts exactly, and why I still remain unvaccinated, especially so now that I’ve just had and recovered from CV19.

Milo
Milo
4 years ago
Reply to  LMS2

congratulations on attaining your natural immunity – hold on to it as hard as you can!

186NO
186NO
4 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

Jennie Harries/MHRA unequivocally stated to the contrary, if you recall various press briefings….

Still, not being a scientist, I am with you RHS, and nothing will persuade me otherwise. How on this earth can time be suppressed to simulate the effects on the human body of a “novel” drug which naturally develop over time.

Cue an out of work faux so called Epidemiological scientist to model that scenario ….with future “vaccines” rushed for a new “novel” virus..

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  sophie123

You trust the tests?

HelzBelz
4 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

Haha and that’s another thing – 3 out of around 20 of our usual ski group couldn’t go with 2 days notice because of +ve ‘tests’. None of them ill, disappointed about missing their holiday and I doubt the insurance would pay out….

HelzBelz
4 years ago
Reply to  sophie123

Same as you, family of sceptics except hubby. Sadly mine still hasn’t come round – he is utterly brainwashed and believes like most that Omicron and the injections finally saved us. He also wants to go skiing and I have said go without me, he has a group of ski buddies to go with. But no – he won’t go sans wifey and prefers to blame jab-free me for his inability to go on holiday rather than those that have made the stupid, illogical rules.

Fortyman
Fortyman
4 years ago
Reply to  HelzBelz

My wife looked astounded when I said I wouldn’t have the booster to go abroad. It was as if I had been making up all my concerns or was deluded.

LMS2
4 years ago
Reply to  Fortyman

I was prepared to lose a substantial amount of money that we’d paid for a cruise holiday back in 2020, rather than get vaccinated.
I had to write to the company Managing director to get our money back, but there’s no way I was going to risk the vaccine side effects just for a holiday.

crisisgarden
4 years ago
Reply to  HelzBelz

That all sounds dreadful. I wish I could promise you that you would be vindicated but I don’t know if any of us ever will. We’re a major problem amongst the brainwashed majority because we draw attention, without even meaning to, to their logical fallacies. The best thing to do I suppose is talk to like-minded people and wait for the house of cards to collapse.

stewart
4 years ago
Reply to  crisisgarden

I don’t think the house of cards collapses by itself, or not for a long time, without actively, constantly speaking up about the truth. My experience is that it works slowly but it works. And the effect is exponential, which means slow and imperceptible at first but takes off quickly. Once one person gets it, they start speaking up.

But I guess it goes with personality. I just can’t help not calling out BS, whatever kind. If done with enough humour, you can get away with it without pissing people off too much.

Fortyman
Fortyman
4 years ago
Reply to  sophie123

Sadly, I share your experience with my spouse.

crisisgarden
4 years ago
Reply to  sophie123

Similar stories must have been played out in millions of households, I know quite a few families who have come under immense strain because the spouses’ opinions differed. I’m glad he came around.
I’ve had phases in which I’ve been criticised for overreacting or being too pessimistic, but my wife and I have remained largely on the same page. She admitted the other day that she thought I might have saved her life by being so opposed to the vaccines, and she thought that if she’d been single or in a different relationship she might have fallen for it. She didn’t like admitting that!!
Ultimately this has shown what we’re all really made of as individuals and it’s the core programming that determines how we reacted to it. You can’t learn to be a critical thinker, you either are or you aren’t; evolution seems to have stacked it that way. If we’d all been like us in the Stone Age, nothing would ever have got done because no one would have trusted the leader!

huxleypiggles
4 years ago
Reply to  crisisgarden

Your final sentence sums it up quite neatly CG. This tribe on here might have made progress if we found each other but then again maybe not.

I am at best a contrarian, although some would call me simply an awkward bugger. Probably like many on here if I disagree with something I let my differences be known and if things don’t suit I walk away and do my own thing. So while I might join the tribe I equally might leave. Basically I don’t like being told what to do, compliance is not one of my strong points.

crisisgarden
4 years ago
Reply to  huxleypiggles

I love that. Your contrarianism has served you well HP. It’s a trait I’ve always had too. If a room full of people believe strongly that it’s up, I’m certain it’s down. What the last two years have given us is an opportunity to put this quality to the test in a live exercise! Paradoxically I’m also traditionally non-confrontational and nervous; this is a side of my personality I’ve really had to work on during the plandemic.

huxleypiggles
4 years ago
Reply to  crisisgarden

Am I confrontational? More often than not. Sometimes I like to lob a grenade just for the hell of it. However, I do occasionally suffer from nervousness. I like to think I do my research and refrain from opinion / comment on a subject I have not studied.

Like most of us on here I knew before I found DS that my view that we were living through an enormous, evil Scamdemic was the correct one. Joining DS meant that I had found like-minded people but if I hadn’t landed here my views would not have changed.

stewart
4 years ago
Reply to  crisisgarden

If we’d all been like us in the Stone Age, nothing would ever have got done because no one would have trusted the leader!

That’s some deep sh*t right there.

I’m not so sure though. I don’t think anything has advanced humanity more than the principle of free exchange. As an individualist and (i’d like to believe) critical thinker, I’m perfectly capable of rallying behind a leader in pursuit of a common interest.

I just don’t go for coercion. And while I think coercion can get results, I don’t think it works as well. But more importantly, I think you end up pursuing the wrong goals and so the wrong results.

The world would be much better if people were more individualistic (and decent, which isn’t mutually exclusive).

huxleypiggles
4 years ago
Reply to  stewart

With you Stewart.

Anonymous
Anonymous
4 years ago
Reply to  crisisgarden

Comments about divided families make me feel sorrow, hope they get back together one day and thankfulness ours hasn’t changed. I and nearest relatives freely share info between us and know not made same decisions.
‘Blood is thicker than water’ and ‘together we stand, divided we fall.’
Decades ago, the 3 of us were suddenly landed in a tragic situation. ‘World and its uncle’ ran away from disaster; all ‘friends’ and relatives abandoned us, zero help from anyone anywhere.
Personal differences between the 3 of us suddenly became trivial. We instinctively ‘glued’ together; got through tragedy, survived beyond, studied while working, eventually reasonable careers, became geographically widely dispersed; overtly appearing not at all close.
However, on the rare occasions when one lands in a situation cannot handle alone, other 2 immediately drop everything in middle of and go to help; automatically straight back to ‘the 3 of us’ surviving times of trouble.
In retrospect, it seems a miracle we survived that tragedy long ago. There’s no knowing whether or not we’d have stuck together now if that unusually severe test hadn’t happened to us. ‘Every cloud has a silver lining’?

RTSC
RTSC
4 years ago
Reply to  Deborah T

My sister told me that since I was unjabbed she wouldn’t be seeing me …. “family policy” she made upon the spot. It lasted about 4 weeks, until she needed some help from me

John Dee
4 years ago
Reply to  RTSC

Exigency trumps made-up policy.

Osobowy
4 years ago
Reply to  RTSC

You should’ve told her to eff off

Judy Watson
Judy Watson
4 years ago
Reply to  Deborah T

That’s so sad

Ron Smith
Ron Smith
4 years ago
Reply to  Deborah T

Killing granny. I have done a lot of work bumping off all the biddies on the tube and Busses.

Osobowy
4 years ago
Reply to  Deborah T

Wow, that’s tough. I feel your pain!

Rick Bradford
Rick Bradford
4 years ago
Reply to  Deborah T

Well, they belong to those who ‘don’t care about young people’.

Or the poor, for that matter, either in your country or across what used to be known as the Third World.

TC
TC
4 years ago
Reply to  sophie123

I’m still waiting!

John Dee
4 years ago
Reply to  TC

Me too. I know no-one who is ready to admit they’ve been soundly conned. Although a few did come up with spurious reasons as to why they didn’t think they’d go for a booster.

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  John Dee

Although sceptical, I agreed with the first lockdown. A momentary pause to see what direction this was heading in. I complied simply because it was easy for me to do so although I didn’t bother with the mask and social distancing nonsense. Had I been part of the gig economy though, I suspect I would have felt very different.

I surmised that if scientists couldn’t figure out what was going on over those first weeks, they never would. And so it proved, they still don’t know what’s going on principally because this is a man made virus.

With that in mind, governments panicked because they knew full well the potential of a manufactured bio weapon. Every country has it’s own labs doing the same as Wuhan. Porton Down isn’t developing novel knitting patterns.

Every government was told by its scientists in no uncertain terms that covid could be the deadliest thing since ebola. Of that I am utterly convinced.

That’s the dirty secret we are still not being told.

huxleypiggles
4 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

This is not about a virus.

Osobowy
4 years ago
Reply to  huxleypiggles

You got that right!

John Dee
4 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

Porton Down isn’t developing novel knitting patterns.

They may be, if it’s novel viruses they’re knitting together.

Ron Smith
Ron Smith
4 years ago
Reply to  John Dee

They have the British made VX there, and the SAREN (think it’s spelled correctly) That the Allies discovered in 1945 in Germany.

JohnK
4 years ago
Reply to  Ron Smith

And they made the press a few years ago when some Russian agents tried to assassinate Sergei Skripal. At least they didn’t far to travel given where it happened!

Milo
Milo
4 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

Indeed RHS, and I just read a lengthy article yesterday about how the WHO was operating hand in and and lock step with China, to cover up the leak and promote the response.

The leader of the WHO does not have a medical background and yet his pronouncements on all of this have been treated as holy writ.

186NO
186NO
4 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

Although sceptical, I agreed with the first lockdown.”

Do you still think you were right to think so?

Lockdown , AFAIAC, was all about controlling people but nothing to do with health. It only would have “worked” if at all by strict quarantine but how do you control an animal reservoir ( if the man developed/assembled chimera did really come from a bat and a rat + furin cleavage site modification) virus – people were still allowed to mix with utterly useless masks – which appear to be now accepted as a device for converting virus populated material, as water droplets, into aerosol and therefore were always a superspreader – however limited the occasion. Never saw the logic there, still don’t.

The GBD which I signed seemed to my non scientific mind the logical way to go – and is it not toe curling to hear tptb crawl ever so slowly towards that position?

Milo
Milo
4 years ago
Reply to  John Dee

Same here – and, worse than that, the region I live in seems to have a dreadful case of “compliance-itis” – every man jack of them has been boosted, some of them suffering quite badly afterwards, and most likely because of the fear stoked up totally needlessly about Omicron.

hi60
4 years ago
Reply to  sophie123

Agreed.

Its equal parts saddening, frustrating, embarassing and occasionally amusing.

Revenge is a dish best served cold, and life/karma/fate/god/the universe has a funny way of catching up with you eventually, in one way or another, so just deserts may be served in time (despite certain awful individuals seemingly alive and well.)

As the great lyricist (?) Baz Luhrman said: The race is long, and in the end, its only with yourself.

thinkcriticall
4 years ago
Reply to  sophie123

It was an intelligence test and most failed!

Milo
Milo
4 years ago
Reply to  thinkcriticall

and are still failing!

X - In Search of Space
X - In Search of Space
4 years ago
Reply to  sophie123

but deep down I will always despise them…even the ones I love

I know how you feel. I don’t despise my siblings (though they have royally pissed me off), but my relationship with them can never be as it was – not because I chose that, it’s just the way it is. Things have shifted out of phase from the Life Before.

A passerby
A passerby
4 years ago

My answer is a categorical NO.

stewart
4 years ago

The problem is that most of these “converts” are still in full psychotic mode because they believe covid vaccines are ending the ‘pandemic’, think covid was really dangerous, don’t acknowledge these jabs are the most dangerous ever, probably think masks do something and relentlessly test themselves.

I don’t believe they are coverts so much as people who feel they have paid their toll with their jabs and compliance are fed up and so now are making themselves believe all the policies worked, except lockdown.

I accept the repentance only of those who admit the entire thing was an overreaction and a full return to life pre covid. Anything less and they can stuff themselves, because otherwise we will be saddled with some of the craziness for ever.

I don’t need to accept them to avoid future lockdowns. I already know that isn’t coming back. I’m worried about all the other crap that is still with us and is much more likely to persist.

dante
4 years ago
Reply to  stewart

Absolutely, it sticks in the back of my throat to hear them say that the vaccines are what got us out of this and the lockdowns were justified (but we won’t do it again) because we didn’t know much about this novel disease and we had no vaccines.

NO NO NO

The data was all there very early on, you just didn’t want to see it, there was no debate, it was actively shut down, hell that’s still happening. And the vaccines, don’t get me started.

And I still worry about lockdowns, the fact that the maniacal Sturgeon wants to put in law that she can close schools, enforce medical quarantine and TREATMENT fills me with horror.

Milo
Milo
4 years ago
Reply to  stewart

 I’m worried about all the other crap that is still with us and is much more likely to persist.”

Yes, Stewart, you put it soooo much better than I did, you final sentence was what I was driving at, but I don’t think I quite reached. It is one thing to repent from being a Lockdownista. That of its own isn’t enough. We have to get rid of the whole apparatus – testing, masking, tracing, quaranting, vaxx passports, jab mandates, hand sanitising, social distancing – ALL of it. Until people accept that position they can’t be considered to repent.

Dame Lynet
Dame Lynet
4 years ago

Not that gobshite in the picture, certainly.

Motives for turning have to be ascertained and if genuine, then ok, but anyone in a position of influence who has caused material harm can’t be allowed to just slither away for the sake of expediency.

Too much damage has been done for that to happen, this has to be properly aired and dealt with.

sophie123
4 years ago
Reply to  Dame Lynet

Agreed.

TC
TC
4 years ago
Reply to  Dame Lynet

Tend to agree, otherwise the same stuff will happen again with the usual supect shills ( see photograph of one J Vine above).
People need to know they can expect repercussions for what they have done to deter similar behaviours in the future.

HelzBelz
4 years ago

The converts that believe the early lockdowns were right and worked put us in danger of the same happening again for the ‘next pandemic’

Free Lemming
4 years ago

If these people were only anti-lockdown then I could forgive, but most are the same who are also against basic human rights i.e. the people (like Jeremy Vine) who spouted and promoted hatred of the unvaccinated. I’m very much an eye for an eye kind of guy, and I will certainly not be forgiving or forgetting. I need to see these people pay for what they have said and done. There must be justice. There must be a future deterrent.

Hopeless - "TN,BN"
4 years ago
Reply to  Free Lemming

I agree, but how to do this? The loathsome Vine, who is but one among many (Neill etc), is near enough untouchable, and will just move on to railing against something or someone else.

Most are so brazen that normal decency is absent. The one thing that hurts them is a massive hit to the large sums that reward their vileness, but I don’t see that happening any time soon.

There will also be some BS about preparing for “the next one”.

Hopeless - "TN,BN"
4 years ago

My personal inclination is to put them in the stocks and pelt them with various ordures.

As most of these are false penitents, now recanting for career, cash and convenience, the only thing to do is to watch and listen, but offer no rewards.

sophie123
4 years ago

I wonder if they were ever real lockdown enthusiasts? Maybe they just expounded them for career, cash and convenience as well? They just sniff out the money.

Disgusting.

PartyTime
4 years ago
Reply to  sophie123

Andrew Neill particularly. Totally out of character, promptly retires to France.

John Dee
4 years ago
Reply to  PartyTime

Tired and visibly rusting. Still, he was fun while he lasted.

Milo
Milo
4 years ago
Reply to  PartyTime

He’s picked a good place – hope he is thoroughly miserable over there in Macron’s open prison.

amc123
amc123
4 years ago

The Iranian revolution threw up an excellent moniker ‘Corrupt on earth‘ designed to cover a multitude of things which i feel could now bewonderfully expanded for the 21st C to include financial corruption, corrupt morals, corrupt character, corrupt brainpower (sub 130 minimum IQs).Too many dim people are the main issue since they do not know they are dim, and therein lies the problem.

Dodgy Geezer
Dodgy Geezer
4 years ago

What needs to happen is for us to point out the way we were villified and censored, and how that scapegoating and cancelling stopped sensible debate and decision-making.

Many of the idiotic decisions cost billions of pounds and thousands of lives. All because reasoned debate was rejected in favour of censorship.

We must keep pointing this out, and fight for all current censorship to be lifted….

Drew63
Drew63
4 years ago

I’m not quite sure what the point is here.

People were stupid, gullible, cowardly, and weak in the past? OK. But it’s not on me to “forgive” them, or to “welcome them into the fold.”

People are beginning to see the error of their ways in supporting lockdowns, clapping for the NHS, and praying for Saint Captain Tom Moore.

OK.

But that doesn’t give me much reassurance that they’ll be any wiser the next time something comes along. And come along it will.

And trust me, they’ll be just as stupid, gullible, cowardly and weak then too.

Deborah T
Deborah T
4 years ago
Reply to  Drew63

If even a small proportion can finally understand how they’ve been manipulated over the last two years, there’s hope. Because they won’t easily trust again, for the rest of their lives. Although I was one of the 7%, who didn’t buy into this from the start, the experience has altered me profoundly. I did actually believe most of what I read on the news prior to 2020! It was only when, in March 20, I knewthat a terrible evil was in charge here, that I really ‘woke up’.

PartyTime
4 years ago

I remember March 2020 as giving me the peculiar feeling that the media had taken over the running of the country. Something similar over the last month with the media trying to depose Boris.

BS665
BS665
4 years ago

Four conditions for a valid confession:

  • Contrition
  • Confession
  • Penance
  • Absolution

I’d accept a sincere public statement of error; sorrow, attempt to reconcile with those who were correct, and in place of absolution: commitment to furthering the truth and retrieving us from coercion and discrimination (by publicly speaking in our favour).

Deborah T
Deborah T
4 years ago
Reply to  BS665

Absolutely. We were typing at the same time. You’ve said it more succinctly.

BS665
BS665
4 years ago
Reply to  Deborah T

Sadly, they are more likely to pretend they always held our views and did nothing wrong.

We can still choose to forgive, even if we never receive an apology or justice; if we decide to wait for an apology first, we may be waiting for a long time. For our own wellbeing unconditional forgiveness, even if galling, is probably the better the option. It’s like dealing with a spoilt child who cannot grasp their misdeeds…

John Dee
4 years ago
Reply to  BS665

Sadly, they are more likely to pretend they always held our views and did nothing wrong.

Vive la Resistance! all over again.

dante
4 years ago
Reply to  BS665

You are a better person than me, I am not ready to forgive or forget, not yet anyway. Perhaps if there is a coming together, a recognition of both sides, like happened in South Africa after apartheid, maybe then. What has happened here is monumental, catastrophic, it cannot simply be forgotten, no way

BS665
BS665
4 years ago
Reply to  dante

I think both sides will have to talk frankly about it all, which may take years of course. Being open to this dialogue will help heal us as well as the others. The wounds we’ve suffered will never be forgotten, but on a personal level letting go of ‘the grudge’ is necessary to stop bitterness. Just because you forgive somebody doesn’t mean justice has been waived: they still have to repent and receive their just punishment. Some will, but most await their maker, as do we all.

dante
4 years ago
Reply to  BS665

100% this.

BS665
BS665
4 years ago
Reply to  BS665

In addition to individual conversion, we need:

* Impartial investigation of it all

  • Trials and just punishments for the guilty
  • Compensation for those who lost jobs, businesses, suffered injustice
  • Political reform; laws strengthening rights and freedoms
  • An inquisition (‘soul searching’) into our own putative beliefs, behaviours
  • De-psychoticization of ‘our’ views in dialogue with the other side
Ron Smith
Ron Smith
4 years ago
Reply to  BS665

We already have. Bill of rights etc, but why it didn’t help the tattoo guy in Bristol is yet to be seen. Corruption in law maybe?

BS665
BS665
4 years ago
Reply to  Ron Smith

I guess rights are one thing, their interpretation/enforcement another: the state will always act upon political direction regarding particular cases.

At this point it seems unlikely any upsurge in awareness/respect for civil liberties is going to take place over night; the state is still claiming the moral high ground and may never admit it was wrong.

Milo
Milo
4 years ago
Reply to  BS665

Excellent post – so often in life you have to forgive without getting even so much as any of the 4 conditions you have set out.

PaulMac66
PaulMac66
4 years ago

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/213717/dh_131040.pdf

I know this has probably been shared umpteen times on here over the last two years. But I still can’t fathom out why they completely disregarded it in favour of the ridiculous lockdown strategy. And before anyone points out that covid isn’t the flu. It does state that the strategy can be adjusted accordingly to accommodate the virus and not completely ripped up and thrown into a burning furnace.

John Dee
4 years ago
Reply to  PaulMac66

Two possibilities; neither particularly palatable –
Either they bottled it, or they really were bought over by the globalists.

Milo
Milo
4 years ago
Reply to  John Dee

you have omitted the third one – Dominic Cummings wanted to rip it up and design a better one on his white board and be some kind of heroic figure like he was with the Brexit campaign

huxleypiggles
4 years ago
Reply to  PaulMac66

The last two years have been nothing to do with a “health crisis.” Unfortunately, this has been about fundamentally reconditioning society; all about coercion and control.

The only health aspects of concern to TPTB are how the nation’s health can be severely undermined. Sadly this includes population reduction and the destruction of an already admittedly broken and dysfunctional national health system.

This is a long way from over.

Deborah T
Deborah T
4 years ago

It’s difficult. People like Jeremy Vine (‘what should we do with the unvaccinated’) helped promote the idea that those of us who have chosen to decline an injection with no long-term safety data, for an illness with a 3 in 1000 mortality rate (and those 3 almost always with severe comorbidities), and an injection that neither prevents infection nor transmission, are selfish and that ‘something should be done about us’. In Austria they are still talking about fining people like us 3000 euros a month or – prison. Some would be happy to have us shot or taken to ‘camps’. People in the media who have helped to whip up feeling against the dreadful, ‘selfish unvaccinated’ are, in my view, disgusting. I think at present I feel too angry, and still too scared to be honest (as it’s not over yet, and I think those behind this will try again) to ‘welcome’ those who have changed their views. If one of them did make a public, abject apology, to the unvaccinated, that would be seen by as many as his/her original statements, I would certainly forgive.

thefoostybadger
thefoostybadger
4 years ago
Reply to  Deborah T

Well said Deborah. 🙂

Further thoughts to my comment further up the page….

Barring a few notable disappointments, (step forward Jim Broadbent) most of the culprits in demonising our section of society had played this absolutely to type; what did surprise me was the alacrity, boldness and vigour they displayed in moving the narrative in the ugly way they did.

Prior to covid people like Jeremy Vine, Jimmy Carr, Lenny Henry, Piers Morgan et al, (plus all the “scientists” and advisors I had yet to hear of), were a complete irrelevance to me, their opinion, if I was aware of it, less important than my next fart.

Now of course, their opinions remain unimportant, but their relevance has changed; I now know for sure that in the right circumstances these people would either cheer on the mob forcibly injecting me/putting me on the cattle train, or do it themselves.

F**k the lot of them.

Occams Pangolin Pie
4 years ago

You are right to point out the likes of Vine, Carr, Henry, Morgan.

Plus, those who inveigled and conned the young, the pregnant, the teens, the schoolchildren: they must be named and shamed and tried in a court of law for their contribution, because of the incalculable damage wrought upon these innocents.

The truth is unstoppable.

And as unpalatable as the idea of Nuremberg like judgement may be, it has to come, or we are lost.

huxleypiggles
4 years ago
Reply to  Deborah T

Never forgive. Never forget.

riskit
4 years ago

Forgive 70 x 7, it’s a biblical teaching and principal; let God do the judgment of true conversion

Skippy
4 years ago
Reply to  riskit

Correct. I’m happy to hasten their appointment in the afterlife.

RTSC
RTSC
4 years ago

I went along with the first “3 weeks to flatten the curve” whilst we got the NHS ready for what could have been a sudden large increase in patients. But I realised very quickly that we were “being spun a line” that made no sense and and I opposed any extension and all the following ones.

Personally, I’d like to see all those in powerful, influential positions who are responsible for the catastrophic lockdowns tarred and feathered. I’m not in a forgiving mood. But realistically, if these people have genuinely recanted we will have to accept it. The priority must be to ensure this can NEVER happen again.

Dave Angel Eco Warrior
Dave Angel Eco Warrior
4 years ago
Reply to  RTSC

I did not remotely go along with the first lockdown because I knew instantly that it was never going to be just three weeks. The mess we are essentially still in now is exactly what I envisaged when Johnson talked his ‘flatten the sombrero’ nonsense.

dante
4 years ago
Reply to  RTSC

See, I think this was a big part of the problem, once folk accepted that initial lie, we were all doomed. I remember trying to explain to friends and family that we have fundamental human rights that the Government cannot violate, like choosing who to see, where and when, and they all thought I was some kind of insane, evil, selfish granny killer.

I have a friend who didn’t hug her mother for a year, afraid she might pass on this stupid virus, her mother died and it was only then that she got to touch her mother’s hand and kiss her, my God this is not forgivable.

Dave Angel Eco Warrior
Dave Angel Eco Warrior
4 years ago

I don’t think there are many, if any, Johnny Come Lately Sceptics. At best there are some folk who think we should return to some semblance of normality solely because they believe lockdown policies worked and the vaccine has been the cavalry. If anything, MSM seems even more hellbent on exposing ‘misinformation’ as they are fearful that some people might actually realise they’ve been duped. But judging by the amount still in masks (in all settings) I don’t think they need to worry too much on that score. To the majority, lockdowns worked, masks worked, social distancing worked and of course, vaccines worked.

adamino
4 years ago

In questions of morality, when people suffer, livelihoods are lost and psychological harm is caused, those responsible should be held to account. We have a rule in our house. It’s called the principle of universalisation. What I can do to you, you can do to me. The State is no different. The problem here is that so much that the State does cannot be universalised which means that the principle or the State is in error…

DanClarke
DanClarke
4 years ago

Most of us knew at the time that the majority of those who encouraged lockdown’s were on furlough, civil and local government workers who received salaries for not going to work etc plus the number the poll was asked to produce, maybe instead of sinners they were skivers

Jo Starlin
4 years ago

I don’t have much forgiveness in my heart I’m afraid. As far as I can tell, many prominent people would very happily have seen us killed back then, and plenty of them would still deprive us of everything that makes life worthwhile today, and for the rest of time.

CGL
CGL
4 years ago
Reply to  Jo Starlin

They don’t have a clue what makes life worth living really though do they. They think it’s all material things and long haul flights. They are barely human any more.
The people I have met or come into contact with in the last 20 months or so – they’re what makes life worth living. Salt of the earth.

Julian
4 years ago

As a matter of tactics we may wish to temporarily tone down attacks people who are now speaking out about the damage done, time to move on etc, in order to consolidate the ground that seems to have been gained at least in the UK and especially in England. But I strongly doubt that there are many who would go along with my view of all of this – that lockdowns are morally wrong regardless of efficacy, that the correct approach to covid was to do more or less nothing, that covid as an extraordinary pandemic was always a Big Lie, that those pushing this nonsense at the top are Bad Actors, that mass vaxxing of the healthy is stupid and evil, and that the vaxx should probably never have been authorised. Not a single person I know has said anything to me remotely resembling “you were right and I was wrong” and not a single covidian I know has said anything remotely suggesting they think it was all a mistake. The mass vaxxing has given the Satanists enough cover to be able to continue the Big Lie, and has given the Sheeple enough to be able to believe they… Read more »

DanClarke
DanClarke
4 years ago
Reply to  Julian

If they offer furlough and full pay for not going to work, yes

Milo
Milo
4 years ago
Reply to  DanClarke

there isn’t the money for that is there?

Mark
4 years ago
Reply to  Julian

“But I strongly doubt that there are many who would go along with my view of all of this – that lockdowns are morally wrong regardless of efficacy, that the correct approach to covid was to do more or less nothing, that covid as an extraordinary pandemic was always a Big Lie, that those pushing this nonsense at the top are Bad Actors, that mass vaxxing of the healthy is stupid and evil, and that the vaxx should probably never have been authorised.” I’m with you on all that. But you probably knew that 🙂 As you say, there are relatively few of us. The issue is that those are the people who are actually important, if we want to learn from this and prevent it happening again, rather than building some kind of cover up coalition. All the ones who think “oh, it was ok to lockdown etc in March 2020, or in winter 2020/21, but now that it’s safe we should be opening up again” are only useful for the moment, for rolling back the continuing covid panic policies and attitudes. They are worse than useless for the longer term. They are giving excuses to the people and… Read more »

dante
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Exactly right. And the prevailing opinion will be just that, we had to try, it was a new virus blah blah blah whilst at the same time turning a blind eye to the incalculable human cost of these policies. And will there be the hard questions? Where did these lockdown policies come from? They just happened across the world in lockstep by chance? And what about the use of behavioural psychology and propaganda on the population by supposed democratic Governments, are we ok with that now? Is that ok people?

And do we expect the very folk who peddled this (MSM) to ask the hard questions? Should we trust our institutions, all of them, Academia, Health, Police, Judiciary, Education.

This runs deep through every part of our society.

Osobowy
4 years ago
Reply to  dante

I don’t trust a damn thing anymore. That has been completely destroyed.

Anonymous
Anonymous
4 years ago

Nelson Mandela:
“Holding resentment is like drinking poison and hoping the other person will die.”

dante
4 years ago
Reply to  Anonymous

Yes but Mandela managed to bring his country together, not by ignoring the actions of the majority, and simply letting them slide into oblivion. There was a national dialogue, a coming together.

Lockdown sceptics and Vaccine Sceptics are censored, vilified, shamed, de-platformed. We are not even ready to have public discourse over this, not by a mile.

Milo
Milo
4 years ago
Reply to  dante

Yes – they had a truth commission.

Bolloxed Britannia
Bolloxed Britannia
4 years ago

NO! A thousand times NO!
The CRETINOUS self serving Vichy f#ckers like Vine would have had the none compliant tarred and feathered if the situation and the prevailing narrative had remained unaltered….But the truth will out, and the truth is that vine is a sh!t stain!

TheBasicMind
4 years ago

Yep. I was always completely and utterly vehemently against lockdown. Right from day one I found compelling evidence the so called experts had the picture completely wrong. I caught Covid on March the 3rd, that was later confirmed with an anti-body test. The NHS dismissed me as a paranoid hypochondriac because I hadn’t met anyone from Northern Italy or who had recently been to China. Yet many people around me also had the symptoms (but weren’t dying). Not all went on to get tested for anti-bodies as I did, but one other did and was also confirmed to have had it. My partner had all the same symptoms as me at the same time as me, yet she never tested positive for anti-bodies. Given the strength of her symptoms and the extent they mirrored mine (literally hour by hour) I have little doubt she also had it but fought it off without even generating an antibody response (and later learned about t-cells from Mike Yeadon and yet later read studies confirming some were fighting it off with t-cells alone). A little later Nadine Dories was confirmed to have it, and also had not recently met anyone from Northern Italy or… Read more »

TheTartanEagle
TheTartanEagle
4 years ago
Reply to  TheBasicMind

The value of direct observation, logical thought and common sense needs to be recognised and promoted, since modern scientists are now as trustworthy as estate agents, marketeers, politicians and lawyers (with the honorable exception of those with ethics and morals investigating the corona criminals).

RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  TheBasicMind

Anecdotal evidence is the foundation of science. It stimulates a hypothesis which then must be tested by seeking out other ‘anecdotes’. If there’s none, the hypothesis was wrong.

I think it was Richard Feynman who said, every scientific discovery begins with a guess, known as a hypothesis. (paraphrasing).

Occams Pangolin Pie
4 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

The Gravitational Waves LIGO con of 2015 gave scientists the confidence to try more confidence tricks unabashed. See Drosten PCR, mRNA, Wellcome etc.

DanClarke
DanClarke
4 years ago

Is this about out spoken public figures because the majority of people I know thought of lockdown as freedom and were very outspoken about encouraging it for their own reasons. No work or ‘WFH’, where they spent most of the time doing what they wanted, they knew that the shops were open and they could get deliveries, what’s not to like. Many people were getting what they had always wanted, one over on the government. I knew 2 couples who isolated and they were retired

iane
iane
4 years ago
Reply to  DanClarke

“What’s not to like” you ask. Well how about loss of democracy and massive downgrading of the country’s future?!

DanClarke
DanClarke
4 years ago
Reply to  iane

Indeed,, but unfortunately a lot of people failed to think of that, still do

disgruntled246
disgruntled246
4 years ago

There’s a difference between those who just didn’t bother to do any thinking and went along with it, and those who actively promoted it – even until recently (the person in your picture with his ‘hold these people down’ comment). The first I suppose I feel pity and a bit of contempt for, the second I despise and can never forgive.

hi60
4 years ago
Reply to  disgruntled246

Indeed.

iane
iane
4 years ago
Reply to  disgruntled246

Personally, I have no pity for and massively despise the herd of Homo Non Sapiens!

hi60
4 years ago

Modern Hybrid-Warfare? The weaponising of our openess used against us, to divide and conqueor, socially engineered cultural flash-bangs if you will, delivered via our (comparatively) free and open (to the highest bidder) markets, media, institutions to persue divisive and absurd identity quotas, climate change quotas, illegal immigration facilitators etc. Or as delusional utopian-dreaming children (the poor victims of said social engineering) might honestly believe: its capitalisms fault, you greedy meany!

Perhaps they see the global hegemonic writing on the wall, so they’re doing the bidding of the next superpower by getting their fawning sycophancy in early, to avoid disappointment, awaiting relocation in China’s Operation Paperclip.

Now we only live in The West with Chinese characteristics.

Lucan Grey
4 years ago

Prodigal Son was always the most difficult story to understand and accept.

As you get older, you understand it better and can see the wisdom in the approach.

Stephanos
Stephanos
4 years ago
Reply to  Lucan Grey

It seems to me that people only look at one side of this story. There was another brother who did not squander the family inheritance and the father said to him, everything I have is yours. In other words, all my inheritance belongs to you, we welcome back your brother but he has had his share of the inheritance. Note also that the younger brother was fully repentant; make me a hired servant he says, I am no longer fit to be your son. I also was in the 7% who rejected this nonsense from the very beginning; I have yet to hear ANYONE of my acquaintance who now says to me, ‘I was wrong, you were right all along’. There are still far too many who are convinced that the narrative was right all along and it is only because of all the covid theatre that we can return to normality. I won’t press the point. I will need to wait. Other people on here make the point that the greater the responsibility, the greater the sin and the greater for the need for repentance. Ron de Santis of Florida DID Lockdown the state; he then recognised in May… Read more »

Mark
4 years ago
Reply to  Stephanos

A point that is routinely ignored in our modern culture, I believe.

When you forgive and forget too freely, including when you compensate for the costs of bad behaviour to the person involved, you implicitly disadvantage those who behaved sensibly and moderately, and bore the personal costs of doing so.

The answer has to be more nuanced than just blanket ignoring of past transgressions or weaknesses. Forgiveness is fine, when there is full admission and repentance, but forgetting should only be for the long term.

iane
iane
4 years ago
Reply to  Lucan Grey

No, that is/was a wretched story to comfort the naughty school-boys amongst us. A late edition to the Bible, I suspect!

amc123
amc123
4 years ago
Reply to  Lucan Grey

doesn’t apply here at all; this is about the possible re-admission of the stupid and malignant ex-son. No quarter shall be given.