Why Mill’s ‘Harm Principle’ is Useless Against Mandatory Vaccination

In a recent piece for the Daily Sceptic, David Martin Jones and Michael Rainsborough object to the attempt by medical ethicist John Harris in the Telegraph to co-opt the famed liberal-utilitarian philosopher J.S. Mill to the side of mandatory vaccination. Mill was a keen defender of individual freedom, but allowed that actions which affect others may be regulated by Government. Harris argues that for a person to refuse vaccination constitutes, using Mill’s words, “a positive instigation to some mischievous act”, and thus is not a protected form of personal discretion.

Jones and Rainsborough object that this misrepresents Mill, who rather held that conduct may be prohibited under his famous ‘harm principle’ only if it is “calculated to produce evil to someone else”. This formulation of Mill’s principle suggests it is only intentional (“calculated”) harm to others that Mill thinks may be prohibited, while unintentional harm escapes the scope of coercive regulation.

But does Mill really hold that it is only intentional harm to others that may be coercively prohibited? It’s hard to square that with the following statement of his principle, found in the same essay (emphasis mine):

For such actions as are prejudicial to the interests of others, the individual is accountable, and may be subjected either to social or to legal punishments, if society is of opinion that the one or the other is requisite for its protection.

Plainly, actions that are “prejudicial to the interests of others” are not only intentional ones, as many unintentional actions can be prejudicial to others’ interests. Furthermore, Mill here is saying that it is up to “society” to determine whether, given such prejudicial action, some measure or other is “requisite for its protection”. It is therefore hard to see how an appeal to an action being unintentional can save it from coming under the scope of “harm” for Mill and thus subject to the control of “society”.

Besides which, Jones and Rainsborough themselves allow that Mill, as a “utilitarian and a moral consequentialist” would “quite possibly”, in the modern context given the existence of socialised healthcare, have argued that “if a responsible adult refused the vaccination the NHS offered to prevent an infectious disease, the individual would either forego any right to NHS treatment or be required to pay the cost of his care”.

Alternatively, Mill may well have just argued that “society” was entitled to determine that refusing vaccination in a context of socialised healthcare is “prejudicial to the interests of others” and so, under his principle, accountable and punishable. But even if Mill would personally have declined to make such an argument, there is nothing to stop others doing so on the basis of how he defined the principle, as John Harris has done.

The underlying problem here is with the harm principle itself. The notion that merely protecting ‘purely self-regarding’ action from social regulation and interference will guarantee individual freedom is, in the end, fundamentally mistaken. Such a category is far too narrow – or at least can be construed as far too narrow – to allow any real scope for freedom once “society” is given the right to determine what is “prejudicial to the interests of others” and thus subject to “punishments” according to its discretion.

What is needed, rather, is an underlying commitment to personal freedom notwithstanding that such freedom will often impinge on others’ interests in certain ways.

For example, many people may regard it as “prejudicial to their interests” to be offended, criticised or disliked. Or to be rejected, failed or disadvantaged by being bettered by others. Or (in a Marxist vein) to be subject to unfavourable power relations arising from inequalities in wealth or status. Or (to take the topic of the present article) to be infected with contagious disease or have public services burdened due to other people’s choices. Or to live in a society where people have easy access to ‘misinformation’. Or to experience a damaged natural environment. Indeed, it’s evident that all the currently most contested political issues relate to how our choices affect other people. And while Mill himself distinguished between “harm” and “offence” and argued that causing offence should not be prohibited, others may not agree with the niceties of this distinction, and anyway many of the current contested topics would not come under Mill’s definition of “offence”. Thus a principle that confines itself to defending purely self-regarding action is of almost zero assistance in these debates and a poor guarantor of freedom.

This is why we need a principle that defends freedom, not only when actions don’t affect others, but including and even especially when they do. We need a commitment to freedom that permeates all the necessary considerations of how to manage the fact that the interests of others are frequently engaged by the ordinary exercise of people’s freedom.

Consider vaccination. Let us grant that the Covid vaccines offer some protection against serious disease, at least for a while. In the context of socialised healthcare it is then useless to deny that something that significantly improves health outcomes may legitimately be construed as engaging the interests of others, and so is not purely self-regarding. This means the harm principle is of no help to us, as anything not purely self-regarding is handed over by it wholesale to “society” to determine the “punishments” required to address the prejudicing of the “interests of others”.

What we need instead is a deeper commitment to freedom that respects the individual’s autonomy over his or her body, notwithstanding that it may in certain ways be “prejudicial to the interests of others”.

When political declarations historically have set out rights to freedom of speech and assembly, to property, to self-government and so on, they have done so notwithstanding that the advancement of these rights will in many ways be “prejudicial to the interests of others”. Our cherished freedoms of speech, assembly, property and so on are not contingent on the idea that the “interests of others” will never be prejudiced by upholding them, but rely rather on the idea that respecting individual freedom is more important than never offending, upsetting, burdening or disadvantaging others in some way. Of course, the impacts of freedom on others need to be monitored and managed politically and legally. But for liberty to thrive such an enterprise needs to be done in a way which, at its core, treasures freedom above the feelings of others, and isn’t afraid to prefer individual liberty to the protection of “interests”.

In other words, we don’t need a harm principle; we need a freedom principle.

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artfelix
4 years ago

Interesting post, however Mill’s doctrine is entirely redundant in this case as the “vaccines” do not protect anyone and may possibly even put more people at risk. Certainly it is not clear if the jabs do more harm than good and in order to force action for “the common good” the emphasis is completely on those enforcing the action to prove that it actually is doing good rather than doing harm or simply preserving the status quo.

cornubian
4 years ago
Reply to  artfelix

Mill said a lot of things, much of it contradictory, but I’m pretty certain the Nuremberg Code overrides any convoluted argument needle nazis like Harris might come up with.

J4mes
4 years ago
Reply to  artfelix

The “vaccines” do not protect anyone from anything. Mortality rates only changed last year due to Midazolam murder and the effects of lockdown. We’re dealing with common cold and the flu.

This year, it will be both Midazolam and the “vaccine” which will increase mortality rates, but they’ll put the finger of blame on their phantom virus.

Lockdown Sceptic
4 years ago
Reply to  artfelix

The Covid narrative is insane and illogical…and maybe that’s no accident
https://off-guardian.org/2021/12/29/the-covid-narrative-is-insane-and-illogical-and-maybe-thats-no-accident/
Maybe forcing people to believe your lies, even after you admit you’re lying, is the purest form of power.
Kit Knightly

When you are demonised for speaking the truth you are living in tyranny. Please come and join our friendly events.

Saturday 8th January 2pm – Marlow
Berks & Bucks Freedom Day 
Higginson Park corner of High Street & Pound Lane
Marlow SL7 1NF
and get your boost of freedom!!

Stand in the Park Sundays 10am  make friends, ignore the madness & keep sane 
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JeremyP99
4 years ago

Solzhenitsyn noted that by forcing people to live a lie that they knew to be a lie, is in effect mass humiliation of a population. I’d say that is correct.

Mark
4 years ago

This is why we need a principle that defends freedom, not only when actions don’t affect others, but including and even especially when they do.

You mean something like this?

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.”

Hugh
Hugh
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

“That all men are created equal”.

“A lot of people forget that bit” (Ranse Stoddard in The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance).

Mark
4 years ago
Reply to  Hugh

Not as many as misinterpret it to require sameness of outcomes…

Susan
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

👏🇺🇸❤️

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Hasn’t Biden “cancelled’ this non-woke concept yet?

Mark
4 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

Well it’s clearly sexist and, by omission, homophobic and transphobic, and implicitly antisemitic, islamophobic and racist as well.

Presumably it’s on the list for “reform”.

Hugh
Hugh
4 years ago

Sorry, but these experimental mRNA “vaccines may not be mandated under the Nuremberg codes, which we have for good reasons after past atrocities. If they are abandoned indefinitely for a controversial experimental treatment, they are not worth the paper they are written on.

Milo
Milo
4 years ago
Reply to  Hugh

I read this today from a discussion between Reiner Fuellmich Wolfgang Wodarg and information from Mike Yeadon was discussed. https://www.thelibertybeacon.com/fuellmich-new-findings-are-enough-to-dismantle-entire-vvv-industry/ It is about the jabs and the bad batches and their impact on the adverse events. The article is worth reading in full, but I provide an excerpt below: “The stupid doctors think they are giving the same injections. But it’s not true. They are being misused for this very big trial where there is no ethics committee! It’s an obscure trial where the people are just the victims. And perhaps they are genetically modifying human beings and they have patents on this stuff. There are 120 new vaccines in the pipeline. They all want to try out their products and now is the time they can do it because we’re still afraid that we need a vaccine. It’s worse than Nuremberg what’s happening now. It is horrible – there are thousands of Mengeles now. Some of them don’t know this, but some of them know very well what they are doing. And they kill thousands of people…. Each one of them is doing their own experiments within an experiment. All of the pharmaceutical industry knows it. They all want to be part of… Read more »

Hugh
Hugh
4 years ago
Reply to  Milo

Reminds me of the Nagasaki nuke, the story was that it was not military need but the opportunity to test how the bomb worked in a different situation. And that was the so-called States.

Milo
Milo
4 years ago
Reply to  Hugh

the key point Fuellmich made was that this constitutes evidence that this was planned

Dale
Dale
4 years ago

I’m afraid that Mill is powerless against the full implications of germ theory. If you are indeed a disease vector, you knew it, nonetheless invaded my space … you as much as intended to harm me. Of course I reject germ theory.

mwhite
4 years ago
Reply to  mwhite

A Belgian scientific research station in Antarctica is dealing with an outbreak of Covid-19, despite workers being fully vaccinated and based in one of the world’s remotest regions.”

Coronavirus pandemic: Antarctic outpost hit by Covid-19 outbreak – BBC News

Ooops.

Dale
Dale
4 years ago
Reply to  mwhite

There is literally no place on earth where you can hide from the wholly fraudulent PCR test.

cornubian
4 years ago
Reply to  Dale

Millions of viruses fall from space every day….https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/13/science/virosphere-evolution.html

loopDloop
loopDloop
4 years ago
Reply to  mwhite

The Invisible Rainbow: A History of Electricity and Life by Arthur Firstenberg. Incredible book about the relationship between electricity and disease. The chapter on Spanish Flu is fascinating. Plenty of examples of ships at sea all coming down with it. And the disease travelling faster than humans could move at the time. Makes the whole idea of transmission of flu from person to person very problematic.

PartyTime
4 years ago
Reply to  loopDloop

Flu transmission is still not well understood. The SIR model as used by Imperial College, which treats people as interchangeable and all equally susceptible, doesn’t explain why flu typically runs through a relatively small percentage of the population before disappearing, much as the COVID waves have done. Hope-Simpson had a theory that flu is mostly spread by long-term asymptomatic carriers who shed the virus based on some seasonal trigger, allowing flu to break out in multiple places simultaneously without contact between those places.

TheApesOfWrath
4 years ago
Reply to  mwhite

I know how that one ends…

Screenshot 2022-01-05 at 08-57-59 1ff26169798a3e30f9aff468871c3d627786c570r1-1119-1284v2_uhq jpg (JPEG Image, 1119 × 1284 p[...].png
BS665
BS665
4 years ago

Isn’t this the kind of thing that got us into this situation in the first place, and won’t let us ever get out of it?

TAKING ACADEMIC SHITE SERIOUSLY.

DS99
4 years ago
Reply to  BS665

Very well said.

Mark
4 years ago

The harm principle is problematic, as has been discussed here many times.

Perhaps its best and most straightforward application is in the negative: if there is no harm, then there is no right for the state to intervene forcefully. As Mill put it:

“Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign. Even if a self-regarding action results in harm to oneself, it is still beyond the sphere of justifiable state coercion.”

loopDloop
loopDloop
4 years ago

I don’t need anybody to formulate a principle of my freedom. I have it. I take it. I exercise it. To the extent you want to regulate it, or remove it, or curtail it, whether you come armed with high falutin’ philosophy, or a shotgun, I’m resisting. Now, if you want to sit down have a drink and talk about it, ok. But my freedom is not subject to how free you think I ought to be. And if that offends you, keep in mind it works both ways. This is the nub of it: if someone else is deciding what definition of freedom applies to you, it’s not freedom is it.

BS665
BS665
4 years ago
Reply to  loopDloop

What he said, dawg!

Mark
4 years ago
Reply to  loopDloop

But my freedom is not subject to how free you think I ought to be.”

But it clearly has to be. If you think (and some surely do, even if you don’t, as I know from direct personal experience) that your freedom should involve wandering into my back garden at night, then my interpretation is going to differ, and it’s going to end in tears for one of us.

loopDloop
loopDloop
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Well you can construct all kinds of scenarios. So, ok, property. Let’s wind the clock back to when there was no property. Now I’m free to roam. But what’s this, you’ve put up a fence and are claiming this land as your own. And now you want to keep me out. Well, dude, you started the issue by claiming for your own property a piece of common land. You stole it. All land since then is the same. It’s all stolen. So now, shotguns at the ready: your theft versus my freedom. You’re right its going to end in tears. It’s called history. So now let’s set the clock back to today. Obviously, for mutual convenience, we all agree to honour property claims. I don’t claim the right to break into your house to prove some point about my freedom. I don’t claim my freedom gives me the right to steal. Of course. But you know, so what. That’s not what this is about. Forget land, or your car. The freedom I am talking about is about my body, not about my possessions or yours. Freedom to think as I please, speak as I please, go where I please on… Read more »

Tee Ell
4 years ago
Reply to  loopDloop

Well, dude, you started the issue by claiming for your own property a piece of common land. You stole it.

Woah steady on.

Mark is free to put a fence wherever he likes. How can he steal something that has no owner? He’s simply exercising his freedom to keep you out and have some peace and quiet.

Or maybe he’s doing it to protect his veg patch from trampling, which in turn allows him to keep his body fed – and you’re putting the health of his body at risk by demanding the right to trample said veg patch?

Playing devil’s advocate, clearly, but any insinuation that this is simple is flawed, I’m firmly with Mark on this.

loopDloop
loopDloop
4 years ago
Reply to  Tee Ell

Why then should I not walk across that piece of land. Just because he put up a fence? What if I put up a fence all the way around his ‘property’, and he can’t get out. That fine by you?

So I don’t get your point. Because private property exists, freedom cannot?

loopDloop
loopDloop
4 years ago
Reply to  loopDloop

What if I put up a fence around the whole world. You can’t walk anywhere now. Happy? Feeling a little boxed in?

This is all artificial, because these properties and fences are extensions of my body, my skin. This idea of projecting your body outwards and denying other people access to that space, that’s not my idea of freedom. That’s not what I’m asserting. Mark might. I’m not. I’m talking about the fence that is my skin.

Tee Ell
4 years ago
Reply to  loopDloop

I’m not saying you shouldn’t walk across that land. I’m saying that doing so could impact Mark’s freedom to grow some veg on that patch, veg that he requires to survive. So by destroying it, you’re impeding his freedom to grow those veg / survive.

I make no point about private property. My point is just this, nothing more: any insinuation that the morality around freedom is simple is flawed.

loopDloop
loopDloop
4 years ago
Reply to  Tee Ell

Wow, so I’ve trespassed on Mark’s land, trampled on his vegie patch, destroyed his crops and forcing him to starve.

Not sure what point you’re making here now. Mark grows beans so I have to take the government mandated vaccine? Is that what you’re saying?

Mark
4 years ago
Reply to  loopDloop

Nobody here is defending the “vaccine” mandates.

The point is just that issues around freedom and its limits are genuinely complicated, and simplistic assertions like “I have it. I take it. I exercise it.” just aren’t going to cut it in the real word.

loopDloop
loopDloop
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Terribly sorry to oversimplify the entire philosophical discourse around freedom in, what, the comments section of some random blog. I’ll be sure to write a proper PhD quoting Wittgenstein and publish it through Bodley Head for you to critique next time rather than just offering up my simplistic thoughts.

Tee Ell
4 years ago
Reply to  loopDloop

I said in my first post that I was playing devil’s advocate, but you seem to have taken it as a personal attack. It was meant very innocently I promise.

I’ll just paste what I said above and leave it there as I don’t appreciate the straw man ad absurdum:

My point is just this, nothing more: any insinuation that the morality around freedom is simple is flawed.

loopDloop
loopDloop
4 years ago
Reply to  Tee Ell

Oh you don’t appreciate the straw man. Good for you. But you have no problem equating my argument to, what was it, demanding the right to trample his vegie patch.

Mark
4 years ago
Reply to  Tee Ell

Mark is free to put a fence wherever he likes. How can he steal something that has no owner? “

Takes me back to anarcho-capitalist forum discussions a couple of decades ago, arguing about “homesteading”, and the origins of rights.

Didn’t really get us anywhere then, either, but it’s interesting stuff.

Tee Ell
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Hehe yep. The tone of debate on here is usually very good, I guess because people tend to start with the assumption that despite different viewpoints we’re all on the same side. Honestly didn’t mean for it to go a little sour above, ah well.

Mark
4 years ago
Reply to  Tee Ell

Yes, it rather spiralled……

loopDloop
loopDloop
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Yes, I try to avoid getting into these kinds of extended discussions. It’s not the place. But you guys had me trespassing in your land, coming at me with a shotgun, then destroying the vegie crop. All because I failed to provide the nuance you insist on. Maybe next time just keep scrolling and just let me say my piece. Or make your point in your own way.

Freedom is simple. If you don’t think so, great! I do. It’s simple. I’m free. And no, that doesn’t mean you have to fantasise that I’m going to break and enter and smash up your stuff.

Mark
4 years ago
Reply to  loopDloop

Maybe next time just keep scrolling and just let me say my piece. Or make your point in your own way.

I did. I don’t think I was unreasonable or unduly hostile, was I? I just gave a reasonable and realistic example to show that there needs to be some way to work out the practical limits of freedom.

rayc
rayc
4 years ago
Reply to  loopDloop

I suppose the guy who put up the fence may want to keep you out because if he doesn’t keep you out you might use your freedom to pick (not trample) the veggies HE grew (by putting innately HIS OWN labor to plow the land and what not). So the poor is just trying to protect his freedom to labor and reap the fruits of his labor, and you are denying it to him and calling him a thief. In that particular scenario you seem to be actually more keen on theft (of someone else’s labor) than him.

So yes, indeed, freedom is simple. Just revert the roles and see how you would feel about the neighbor exercising his freedom against your veggie patch and calling you a thief for trying to protect your work.

P.S. I fully agree that you don’t need John Stuart Mill or any other dead guy to make you realize that, and I’m fully confident you will sort it out all right by yourself.

Anti_socialist
4 years ago
Reply to  loopDloop

One man’s right is another man’s shackle, you can’t have rights & freedoms.

The injustices of “property” (land) ownership are the root cause of all the fascist, crony capitalist, Marxist, authoritarian, totalitarian & democracy problems of today.

You can not separate the right to own land, a neoliberal philosophy, that most libertarians subscribe too! & the authoritarian. Because those protections have to be enforced. Our economy, banking cartels & British establishment are built on theft of something that was never theirs. Common land never belonged to government to sell or give away.

The most a free egalitarian society could hope for in terms of respect for property should be respect for privacy of an occupier of a place name i.e. your home.

Tee Ell
4 years ago
Reply to  loopDloop

As Jurassic 5 would say:

My speech was free the day that my soul descended.

No-one important
4 years ago
Reply to  loopDloop

“My conscience is mine, my justice is mine, and my freedom is a sovereign freedom” Proudhon

cloud6
4 years ago

Here is your future people…

Swedish startup Epicenter has created an under-the-skin microchip to carry Covid passports in the user’s arms.

At the beginning of December, Sweden enacted new rules requiring individuals to have a passport at all events with more than 100 people.

Following that announcement, the number of people who got microchips inserted under their skin rose: around 6,000 people in Sweden have so far had a chip inserted in their hands.

Epicentre’s Hannes Sjöblad said: “Right now it is very convenient to have a Covid passport always accessible on your implant.”

Coming sooner than you think to all Western Democracies.

HelzBelz
4 years ago
Reply to  cloud6

I remember not so long ago, when this was just another conspiracy theory…

HelzBelz
4 years ago

I wrote earlier about skiing in Italy – FFP2 masks required in all cable cars and other vaguely ‘enclosed’ mountain transport. Gets worse. The lift pass in Italy is apparently linked to your vaccination ID so the unvaccinated won’t even be able to get on a lift! Looks like my skiing days are well at truly over!

Mark
4 years ago
Reply to  HelzBelz

Skiing in Sweden
Might hold out for a little longer than Italy, at least….

HelzBelz
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Or in Sweden you have your lift pass and Vaxx ID on a chip implanted into your hand…

Mark
4 years ago
Reply to  HelzBelz

Maybe for some of them, but it’s not compulsory (yet).

Major Panic in the jabby jabbys
Reply to  HelzBelz

come to Slovenia….
Lovey people, lots of small ski areas…
huge dump of snow tomorrow,
just do it….
(We don’t get there till Sunday)

TheyLiveAndWeLockdown
4 years ago

SLAP!

Sounds
Like
A
Plan

JaneDoeNL
JaneDoeNL
4 years ago

“Prejudicial to the interests of others” – doesn’t that argument cut both ways? We know that the vast majority of people do not require whatever protection may be afforded by the vaxx, that only a small minority (if anybody) will benefit from the vaxx. We know, by and large, who that group is. We also know that the group least in need of the vaxx, is the group that suffers the greatest negative effects of the vax. So insisting that the majority take a drug that in the short term has proven to cause harm to people who in all likelihood would have suffered no harm from the virus, so that a small minority, following the false premise of vaxx for all to end the pandemic peddled by pharma companies and the scientists, doctors and politicians they have co-opted, might feel more protected, is surely just as prejudicial to the interests of others – indeed, prejudicial to the vast majority. The assault on the rule of law, constitutions, fundamental rights and freedoms carried out by those pushing vaxxes and lockdowns is also prejudicial to the interests of all of us. On a separate note, can we stop the lie that… Read more »

Vxi7
Vxi7
4 years ago
Reply to  JaneDoeNL

I agree that unvaccinated should be locked out from health care but I would add much much more: diabetes 2 patients, smokers, drinkers, reckless drivers, people causing any accident, extreme sports fanatics and so on. Let’s see how people react. Or it is only fine to get locked out until it fits your idea right?

TheGreenAcres
4 years ago

You can debate the intellectual and philosophical arguments until the cows come home.

Is a person who goes skiing in winter taking an unacceptable risk (it is a risky sport after all), are they being selfish? What about mountain biking, running, or DIY? All causes of accidents and admissions to hospital. Should we ban any sport that is not sedentary or any activity that comes with the slightest risk?

Tee Ell
4 years ago
Reply to  TheGreenAcres

The examples you gave are mostly about personal risks, unless you’re referring to a skier taking an unreasonable risk that results in mountain rescue being called to a situation that puts the rescuers at risk unfairly.

My interpretation of the moral argument above is that it focuses more on potential harm to others.

I prefer to use the example of cars – drivers are putting pedestrians on the pavement at risk.

Rowan
Rowan
4 years ago

The Telegraph takes stacks of cash from the Vaccinator General, Bill Gates and so the musings of John Harris on the prospect of mandatory vaccination will carry zero credibility with anyone who has a brain that’s still working.

Those poor souls who chose to allow any of these untested, unlicensed and clearly dangerous products to be injected into their bodies might want to excuse themselves from the still working brain description. Instead it might be better for them to concentrate on getting their affairs in order, while time allows.

Tee Ell
4 years ago

There are two quite different scenarios here, and both fall flat for me for different reasons. The FIRST is more hypothetical and does not relate to the current crop of adenovirus vector or mRNA “spike-only” vaccines. If a vaccine truly does protect against transmission and infection, then the argument in favour of mandates states “you should not have the freedom to cause harm to others”. However, since those vaccines protect against transmission and infection, we can solve this moral conundrum very easily – the person who wants to be protected can simply opt to have the vaccine. So in this scenario, the only remaining ethical question in my eyes is: “should mandates be put in place to protect those unable to have the vaccine and newborn babies?”. I think this case is actually arguable, and while I still wouldn’t support mandates (because I don’t trust the authority of those who would mandate them), it still feels like a valid ethical debate. The SECOND scenario is actually pertinent to the current situation, and relates to leaky vaccines that don’t prevent infection or transmission and carry risks to the vaccinated. In this scenario, it is very hard to make the moral case… Read more »

RW
RW
4 years ago

The harm principle isn’t applicable to any of this, the key phrase being individual is accountable for. This necessitates that said individual made a conscious decision to do something and could have made a different conscious decision instead. But getting infected with a virus is not the result of a conscious decision: It’s one of (unknown) environmental circumstance said individual cannot realistically control: The only surefire way to avoid that is to spend one’s complete life in isolation in a suitable facility, ie, one designed to be safe in an environment contaminated with biological warfare agents. Further, the individual can also not stop viruses replicating in its body from jumping to other hosts unless the same condition is met.

This means people trying to argue based on this harm principle must demand that all of mankind must be permanently locked up in separate, bioweapon-safe compartments. And this, in turn, would mean must demand self-extermination of the human race by starvation. Insofar they don’t, they’re just using a sleight of hand to justify why their own, largely irrational fears justify enforcement actions targetted at other people.

BillRiceJr
BillRiceJr
4 years ago

I love the cartoon that accompanies this story. That’s what great political cartoonists do – they capture in one drawing and dialogue boxes the essence of what’s taking place. Of course, now-a-days there are hardly any brave cartoonists left in mainstream media. I recall one cartoonist in Australia produced a “Covid skeptic” cartoon and was promptly fired.

BillRiceJr
BillRiceJr
4 years ago
Reply to  BillRiceJr

Good summary of the experts’ past pronouncements:
https://www.facebook.com/chris.buechler/videos/1015799722480254

DS99
4 years ago
Reply to  BillRiceJr

Nice example of a duper’s delight smirk from Mr Gates there at about 30 seconds.

Paul_Somerset
4 years ago
Reply to  BillRiceJr

The man who drew the above cartoon, the great Bob Moran, has indeed been fired.

Mark
4 years ago
Reply to  Paul_Somerset

He was “offence-mongered” out of his job.

BillRiceJr
BillRiceJr
4 years ago
Reply to  Paul_Somerset

I didn’t know THIS was that cartoonist. Well, there you go – they fired the best and smartest cartoonist.

DS99
4 years ago
Reply to  BillRiceJr

He has a website and sells cartoons … I was thinking of getting the one captioned “Never give up the right to spend time with the people you love”.

Bob Moran art

Steven Robinson
Steven Robinson
4 years ago

We do need a deeper commitment to freedom, agreed. As for ‘the underlying problem’, one might question whether utilitarianism as a system of thought and of which Mill was an exponent is the philosophical light one should be guided by at all. The basing of social policy on the ‘happiness of the greatest number’ has a totalitarian tendency at its very root. The endgame is a ‘Brave New World’ dystopia where the majority appear to be happy but in fact are drugged; they do not have the independence of mind, freedom of thought and therefore right of dissent that help to give dignity to human life; and they do not care to see such things expressed in the minority, rather they are ‘happy’ to see the minority oppressed. What, fundamentally, is the difference between being forced by law to wear a seatbelt and being forced to get jabbed? Both involve bodily autonomy. Both involve potentially burdening the NHS unnecessarily. Both involve calculations of risk. Mandatory seatbelt-wearing is the equivalent of a covid passport: you can’t travel by car (train/aeroplane/coach) unless you satisfy the imposed condition. Philosophical consistency may oblige one to acknowledge the justice of the analogy and, if one… Read more »

RW
RW
4 years ago

Making seatbelt-wearing mandatory is (or rather was) nonsense as there’s no practical way to enforce that. But that’s an entirely different conversation.

Mark
4 years ago
Reply to  RW

Tell that to those who’ve been fined for breaching it (as I have). Not that it’s stopped me doing so, as it’s a matter of principle for me, but the fact that enforcement can be evaded much of the time doesn’t make intrusive laws much less obnoxious.

The reality is that most people obey the rules, and for some of those people it’s because they don’t want to get fined.

RW
RW
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

It’s certainly an excuse to extort some more money from somebody whom the police targetted for a completely different reason. But that’s not the same as effective enforcement.

Steven Robinson
Steven Robinson
4 years ago
Reply to  RW

Yes, I’ve been fined too – it’s certainly not a dead letter – and I remember how pleased the policewoman looked to be able to add me to her record of offences apprehended. Introduce a new legal restriction and there are always people eager to enforce it.

Mark
4 years ago

Making seatbelt wearing mandatory was clearly morally wrong, and a gross error, as crossing an ethical line without serious need will tend to be.

The seatbelt law parallel was one of the first resorts of those rationalising the facemask mandates.

Malcolm Ramsay
Malcolm Ramsay
4 years ago

What, fundamentally, is the difference between being forced by law to wear a seatbelt and being forced to get jabbed? […] Philosophical consistency may oblige one to acknowledge the justice of the analogy

The first is essentially a discretionary contractual arrangement whereby the state enhances individuals’ natural capabilities, for mutually-agreed benefit, in exchange for compliance with a set of rules; i.e. the state provides a road network and associated infrastructure which allow people to travel at far higher speeds than they could naturally, in exchange for users’ agreement to use that network responsibly (which a majority agrees includes complying with certain rules intended to limit the burden on emergency services when accidents happen).

The second is the state using its monopoly of force (which the public grants it for the purpose of constraining and punishing violations of generally-agreed rules, and without which highly developed societies would be impossible) to impose a potentially damaging modification of individuals’ natural state, which gives no benefit at all to some people, for a purpose which some regard as inimical to a healthy society.

It’s always seemed like a totally spurious analogy to me.

Mark
4 years ago
Reply to  Malcolm Ramsay

The first is essentially a discretionary contractual arrangement whereby the state enhances individuals’ natural capabilities, for mutually-agreed benefit, in exchange for compliance with a set of rules

This is pure sophistry.

There’s no contractual agreement involved at all. The seatbelt laws were imposed by coercion.

And the reference to “emergency services” amounts to the same point anyway, that these unjust laws are rationalised by the cost to the public purse, consequent on the collectivisation of health (and emergency) services.

Malcolm Ramsay
Malcolm Ramsay
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Mark, you may disagree with the idea that it is in essence a contractual arrangement, but that doesn’t make it sophistry. To my mind, it is very clearly different to laws which are fundamental to the existence of organised society (such as those which punish killing another person, or the taking of property which society at large recognises as belonging to someone else). It’s a law which only applies to people who choose to engage in an activity (travelling at high speed) which the world managed very well without for many centuries. Your ability to travel at high speed, at ground level, depends on the state providing the roads and associated infrastructure and services (including cleaning up after accidents). Are you saying that it doesn’t have the right to make people’s use of that network conditional on their abiding by an agreed set of rules? The seatbelt laws were imposed by coercion. What laws aren’t imposed by coercion? Do you think laws of contract aren’t? the cost to the public purse Actually, I was thinking more of the emotional cost to the unfortunate people who have to clear up the mess after an accident. You might think that’s irrelevant. I… Read more »

zners
zners
4 years ago

Big protest in Kazakhstan, Almaty tonight around soaring inflation. Typically doesn’t happen there as the police are truly brutal, but this time they were outnumbered. Instead of censoring, they’ve literally shut the entire Internet down and detaining journalists.
We’re seeing massive unrest across the globe

lordsnooty
4 years ago

> be required to pay the cost of his care”.

that’s it. hit them where it hurts them the most in their pockets.

LonePatriot
LonePatriot
4 years ago

While the MSM condemns the use of ivermectin, the most populated state in India just declared they are officially COVID free after promoting widespread use of the safe, proven medicine. In addition to this, Ivermectin attaches to covid spikes and prevents them from binding to ACE2. Get your Ivermectin today while you still can! https://ivmpharmacy.com

amanuensis
4 years ago

But ‘harm’ is far more complex than that. Moving away from the contentious subject of coronavirus vaccines — consider vaccination against chickenpox as an argument. This vaccine definitely works. What’s more, by becoming vaccinated you also protect others against disease, such as the immunocompromised. Great — vaccination is a utilitarian good. But what about vaccine side-effects? They’re rare, but then so are complications with chickenpox, with hospitalisations running at 1:3,000 or so. But now the vaccines have been identified as significantly increasing the risk of shingles in older age, which can be very painful/distressing and comes with a risk of serious complication (eg, loss of sight). This occurs because immunity to the chickenpox virus needs regular exposure over the years for the immunity to remain effective — as vaccination has reduced childhood chickenpox the elderly have been denied this ‘top up’ of their immunity. Ah, but those at risk of shingles can have the shingles vaccine, which reduces the problem… What a merry-go-round — we need medicine to counteract the problems introduced by medicine for a problem that, while non-trivial, also wasn’t that serious in the first place (I’d be happy to accept a counter-argument here, but I’d note that… Read more »

rayc
rayc
4 years ago
Reply to  amanuensis

But this “we need a solution to a problem we created by solving the previous problem” is generally the story of civilization…

NeilofWatford
4 years ago

If your vaccine protects you, leave me alone.
If your vaccine doesn’t protect you, why did you take it?
Stop blaming a flawed treatment on those who refuse to take it.

Anti_socialist
4 years ago

Look this has already been, agreed on in advance it’s time we stopped engaging theoretical debates that justify fascist narratives. There are numerous treaties, declarations & laws that prohibit this totalitarian criminality. It’s time to stamp out pro vaccine marxists who are inciting hate & violence on others. Set an example No1. Issue an arrest warrant for the health secretary for Savage Jabit.

Universal Declaration on Bioethics and Human Rights (2005)

General provisions,Article 6 – Consent

3. In appropriate cases of research carried out on a group of persons or a community, additional agreement of the legal representatives of the group or community concerned may be sought. In no case should a collective community agreement or the consent of a community leader or other authority substitute for an individual’s informed consent.

Anti_socialist
4 years ago
Reply to  Anti_socialist

The Nuremberg Code (1947)

Permissible Medical Experiments1.The voluntary consent of the human subject is absolutely essential. This means that the person involved should have legal capacity to give consent; should be so situated as to be able to exercise free power of choice, without the intervention of any element of force, fraud, deceit, duress, overreaching, or other ulterior form of constraint or coercion; and should have sufficient knowledge and comprehension of the elements of the subject matter involved as to enable him to make an understanding and enlightened decision

Anti_socialist
4 years ago
Reply to  Anti_socialist

Covid-19 vaccines: ethical, legal and practical considerations

7.3.1 ensure that citizens are informed that the vaccination is not mandatory and that no one is under political, social or other pressure to be vaccinated if they do not wish to do so;

7.3.2 ensure that no one is discriminated against for not having been vaccinated, due to possible health risks or not wanting to be vaccinated;

The Law is clear on force, coercion & blackmail in regard to vaccines. The British Government are braking it! If you engage with these people justifying their criminality, you are complicit.

Jon Mors
Jon Mors
4 years ago

The problem with any collective decision making is that the decisions can be wrong; not just for certain individuals or certain groups, but for society as a whole, possibly even for the groups that are meant to benefit the most (the elderly in this case).

Individual decision making can also be wrong but is less likely to provide dramatically poor outcomes for society, as not all individuals will do the same wrong thing, some may take more time than others to way up their options and so on.

This so-called crisis has been the best advert for libertarianism that I have ever seen. It is not, to me, about abstract notions of liberty, that justify minimal government, but the fact that government is so often inimical to life, wealth, dignity and happiness.

Old Maid
4 years ago

Sorry, but this is over-laboured. If the virus was actually dangerous – and an IFR of 0.096 clearly makes it not so – then maybe you could argue for Mill’s prevention of harm to others. But it’s not and never was, so the point is moot. The same thing goes for the ‘vaccines’ that are not vaccines.

I think we do ourselves a disservice with these overworked, ponderous pieces. A short, sharp para or two is much more likely to hit home. Sorry Will.

Laicey
Laicey
4 years ago

Too many words. We don’t need philosophers for this one. We don’t even need any science let alone ‘the science’. Mandatory vaccinations are and have always been wrong. End of story.

That would have been the mainstream view 2 years ago. I can’t believe how far we’ve gone in such a short time. We used to have an Hippocratic Oath.

Liberty4UK
Liberty4UK
4 years ago

Virtue ethics get us where we want to be faster than utilitarianism, for the major flaw with the utilitarian approach that the governments claim to have used is that it relies upon predictable consequences. Here the consequences were unknowable, given the fact that they were never tested over the long term, (though the previous animal tests for MRNA vaccines in cats and other animals had been known to be disastrous.)

Of course the consequences may well have been known by a significant inner cohort. The essays and papers by both Stanley and Boris Johnson on the desirability of a much much lower population (eg. 10-15M in the UK) do not inspire confidence that they innocently failed to recognise that the consequences were unknowable, sadly.

Hopeless
4 years ago

Casuistry, derived from and predicated by lies and malfeasance.

Victory Gin
4 years ago

Jeremy Chardy: I regret getting vaccinated, I have series of problems now.

Former world No. 25 Jeremy Chardy says he has a “series of problems” after taking the COVID-19 vaccine and his 2021 season is over. This summer, 34-year-old Chardy decided to get vaccinated and it didn’t work out well for him.

https://www.tennisworldusa.org/tennis/news/Tennis_Interviews/102836/jeremy-chardy-i-regret-getting-vaccinated-i-have-series-of-problems-now/

Paul_Somerset
4 years ago

The problem with applying JS Mill to modern-day questions is that he lived and wrote in that happy time prior to August 1914, when as AJP Taylor noted, “a sensible, law-abiding Englishman could pass through life and hardly notice the existence of the state, beyond the post office and the policeman.”

We’re discussing problems that Mill could never have foreseen, and his thoughts are sadly no longer relevant.

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago

Is the cartoon a Tory election poster?