Why Lionel Shriver Isn’t a White Nationalist

Observer columnist Kenan Malik has taken Spectator columnist Lionel Shriver to task for her recent column arguing that “white Britons” should be making more fuss about the prospect of becoming a minority in the U.K. in the next few decades. “In the big picture,” Shriver writes, “along with the native populations of other western countries, white Britons needn’t submissively accept the drastic ethnic and religious transformation of their country as an inevitable fate they’re morally required to embrace without a peep of protest”.

Malik is not impressed: “Shriver’s,” he writes, “is but the latest in a series of arguments by prominent conservatives bemoaning the decline of the white population or defending the legitimacy of white ‘racial self-interest’”. Boiling Shriver’s argument down to the claim: “To be truly British, the country needs to stay largely white”, Malik retorts that what the identity politics of both left and right get wrong is they fail to recognise that ‘whiteness’ does not matter:

For both right and left, whiteness has come to acquire an almost magical quality. On the one side, whiteness is something to be protected, something too little of which transforms British communities, and mysteriously makes them less British. On the other, whiteness has become an embodiment of privilege or wickedness and racism seen not in social or structural terms but in the inherent qualities of being white.

It’s an obsession that replaces political argument with magical thinking and gives new legitimacy to bigotry. Racism matters. Whiteness does not.

It’s worth noting that the facts of demographic change are not in doubt. Shriver succinctly summarises them in her piece, and Malik does not question them.

In the past 20 years, foreign-born residents of the U.K. have doubled to nine million, going from 8% to 14% of the population. In tandem, the white British proportion of the population has fallen from 89% to 79%, while ethnic minorities have grown from 10% to 21%. Since 2001, 84% of U.K. population growth has been due to immigrants and their children, rising to 90% since 2017 – the majority non-E.U.

More than a third of U.K. births now involve at least one foreign-born parent; in parts of London, 80% of births are to foreign-born mothers. Indeed, non-U.K. nationals are disproportionately concentrated in British cities. The majorities of London, Slough, Leicester and Luton have an ethnic minority background. About half the births in London, Birmingham, Manchester and Cambridge are to foreign mothers.

Unsurprisingly, then, a third of British school children are already from ethnic minorities; in 20 years, ethnic-minority children will constitute more than half the students in state schools. As of 2018, 90% of immigrants were under 45. That means the ethnic transformation of the U.K., whose white population is far older, is destined rapidly to accelerate.

The point in dispute, then, is whether this remarkable demographic change matters. Does it matter if the ethno-cultural majority becomes an ethno-cultural minority?

Malik is clear that ‘whiteness’ does not matter and implies that Shriver thinks it does. I’m not sure, though, that that is the fairest way to summarise Shriver’s view. While she does refer to white people a number of times in her article, she makes clear her argument applies equally to people of whatever colour:

We are a political and territorial species. Although Pollyannas push us to regard ourselves as members of one big happy human family, we compulsively clump into groups. These groups claim territory and, under normal circumstances, defend it. …

This is not all about race. Kenyans resent Somali immigrants. Black South Africans resent Zimbabwean immigrants. Colombians resent Venezuelan immigrants. Anywhere, when the proportion of the ‘other’, however they might be defined, crosses a critical and perhaps even quantifiable statistical line, people who were born in a place stop getting excited about all the new ethnic restaurants and start getting pissed off.

With no sense of irony, Mexicans resent the droves of American retirees who settle on their coasts, radically transforming the local culture and nattering along the beach exclusively in English. I’m sympathetic, too. This is normal. Call them ‘xenophobic’ if you will, but most people want to live around people like themselves.

My feeling is that to make the argument about ‘whiteness’, as Malik does, is to miss the central point and risk getting side-tracked into historic questions of ‘scientific racism’, which try to establish the superiority and dominion of one ‘race’ (the ‘white’ one) over another race (the ‘black’ one). All agree that such notions are ethically repugnant and have no place in modern civilised discourse.

The modern question isn’t about whiteness and blackness (as much as Critical Race Theorists would like to convince us it is) but about questions of nationality, heritage, homeland, ancestry and the significance of being native or indigenous. It’s also about the role of similarity in promoting cohesion and trust. These are universal questions and concerns; their connection with any particular skin colour is purely incidental to the specific countries being considered at the time.

An underlying issue here is what relationship, if any, the nation state has to nationality, understood as an ethno-cultural concept. What is the relationship between the nation state of France, say, and people of French heritage?

Intuitively you would assume there was a close connection. Is the nation state of France not precisely, indeed tautologically, the state based on the French nation? Is nationality not, at least in part, an ethno-cultural concept?

You will find little dispute anywhere that a nation state is the political self-determination of a nation, or that nationality is a concept with an ethno-cultural dimension. The Merriam-Webster dictionary, for instance, includes as one of its definitions of nationality: “a people having a common origin, tradition, and language and capable of forming or actually constituting a nation-state”; and also “an ethnic group constituting one element of a larger unit (such as a nation)”.

It’s not hard, then, to make a simple argument based on these generally-accepted definitions to derive the ethno-nationalist idea that, on some level, there is an important connection between the nation, understood ethno-culturally as a people with a shared ancestry and culture, and the nation state.

This simple connection can be challenged in a number of ways. One is to insist that the nation in nation-state is understood purely politically, and to divest it of all ethno-cultural connotations. This is the fiat approach: we simply define the nation state to have nothing to do with the ethno-cultural nation with which it has historically and demographically been associated. The relationship between them is redefined by political and social will to be purely incidental, and not one to be concerned about in any way, such as might cause someone to worry about large-scale demographic change. In this paradigm, which appears to be Malik’s, demographic change cannot possibly make Britain less British, because being British has nothing to do with demography.

The challenge in this paradigm is to define what does constitute Britishness without tacitly appealing to the same concepts that have been rejected. Britishness, if it is not to be an arbitrary legal designation, must be constituted of something a group of people have in common. But what people have in common is what is usually referred to as their culture – their language, customs, values, traditions, history, heritage, religion, and so on. So how can Britishness be defined without appealing to any cultural concepts? Or is it to be left entirely empty, save for the legal formality?

A halfway house would be to prise apart ethnicity and culture and define Britishness in terms of culture but emphatically not in terms of ethnicity. However, while appealing for its inclusivity, this doesn’t really solve the problem, as large-scale demographic change would still result in rapid cultural shift, since unless there is a high level of integration of a kind not currently being achieved in Western nations (or elsewhere, and surely made impossible by the rate of change), most people of minority ethnic heritage will still to a large extent identify with and practice significant elements of their traditional culture. This means worries about demographic change would persist, and while ethnicity would be formally banished from the considerations, in practice it would amount to the same thing, as the worries would boil down to people of minority ethnic groups not assimilating quickly and comprehensively enough to the culture of the historic majority. In other words, can ethnicity and culture really be so neatly prised apart, when culture consists in the customs of a people?

Lastly, the simple connection of nation-state and nationality can be challenged by questioning whether the ethno-cultural notion of nationality can even be defined in a stable way that allows it to be used as a basis for worrying about demographic change. In other words, is the concept of Britishness (say) so loose and fluid that it doesn’t really make sense to worry about it changing as a result of a large-scale influx of people of different cultural backgrounds? On this idea, Britishness is just what British people, of all backgrounds, make it to be. The question for this position is whether it is really true that national cultures can’t be defined sufficiently for the purposes of understanding the differences between nations, and whether the looser, more fluid definition can do what is required of it and underpin a stable and successful political community.

To sum up, how important is it that Britain stays “largely white”? This I think is the wrong question to ask. The better question is: How important is it that Britain retains its historic role as the national homeland of the British peoples by ensuring people of British ancestry and culture remain the demographically predominant groups?

There are other questions connected with this. Do people of British heritage want a national homeland where they live under their own laws and customs with people who are mostly like them – culturally, and often in appearance as well? If so, how achievable is that, given a high rate of immigration and demographic change? How quickly and comprehensively can people of other backgrounds be assimilated to keep the objective on track? If this is not thought to be a legitimate or desirable objective, what are the practically workable alternatives and how do they compare?

There is no question, of course, of ethnic minorities being treated as anything other than equal citizens, without discrimination or prejudice. The question is about the nature of national heritage and identity, and the role of the nation state in that. These are some of the biggest questions of our times, and they’re not going anywhere.

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Cristi.Neagu
4 years ago

To anyone that thinks this demographic shift doesn’t matter: Are you ok with white people going to South Africa, displacing the local population, and installing their own form of governance and societal order? Are you ok with white people going all over the planet, taking over societies in India, Australia, America, etc? If you’re not ok with those, then why are you ok with this?

Aleajactaest
4 years ago
Reply to  Cristi.Neagu

currently South African “blacks” are begging the “whites” to return and bring some semblance of peace and prosperity back to their collective country. Go figure.

Cristi.Neagu
4 years ago
Reply to  Aleajactaest

To be clear, I am not trying to say that any of the events I’m describing are good or bad from my point of view. I am simply trying to make an argument from the point of view of someone that thinks the cultural replacement going on in the UK is not an issue, and I’m doing so by presenting them with events they are very likely to consider bad, if not outright evil. It’s a kind of reverse psychology, if you will.
Although it is not lost on me that the number of such people reading this site is undoubtedly very small…

Hugh
Hugh
4 years ago
Reply to  Cristi.Neagu

Or to put an estate agent spin on it, “under the radar”. 🙂

Hugh
Hugh
4 years ago
Reply to  Cristi.Neagu

I heard a story about white people going to Tasmania and shooting the local population because they thought they were a “missing link”. Or something. For all the things my 1906 encyclopaedia got wrong, there are many things that people are getting wrong today.

William Gruff
William Gruff
4 years ago
Reply to  Cristi.Neagu

Whatever ‘it’ is, it is only BAD when Whites do it, and when Whites complain that others are doing it to us with the encouragement of our treacherous political class.

Mark
4 years ago

We’re supposed to pretend this catastrophically momentous change isn’t happening. To notice it is to be, at best, accused of being tediously “obsessed” (as the likes of RickH here – whose generation allowed this to be inflicted on the nation on their watch – tend to respond), or if the lefties can get away with it, to be smeared as a “racist” on the level of Nazi or KKK types. That’s basically how resistance to the disastrous, evil policy of mass immigration has been mostly successfully suppressed for generations, with the consequences for our society that we have seen but mostly been forced to pretend “just happened”. Let’s be clear about this – immigration is a numbers issue, always. As individuals, immigrants are just humans – some better some worse, in all the different ways humans differ. But they are racially and/or culturally different, by definition, and they change the societies they immigrate to. They bring different cultural assumptions, and loyalties, with them. And those differences and loyalties can last for generations, or be permanent. Overall, mass immigration undercuts wage bargaining (that’s why big business and the wealthy support it), and the costs are born disproportionately by the poorest. And… Read more »

RW
RW
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

It’s an attempt to solve a problem, namely, the lack of workers resulting from the insistence of all sufficiently americanized peoples to commit ethnic suicide by contraception. The idea that the Brits can simple dwindle until their number is zero and the last one then switches the lights of in London Underground is not going to fly: Leave a vacuum somewhere, and it will be filled.

Mark
4 years ago
Reply to  RW

This was always a non-problem blown up as another pretext for pushing the mass immigration agenda.

First, it was the usual pseudo-science nonsense of extrapolating a trend as though it will go on forever. It won’t.

Second, the only reason there are “jobs native born Brits won’t do” (another, closely related, favourite trope of the immigration-pushers) is because there are jobs the employers prefer not to pay them enough to do. Increase pay, people will do the jobs. If that means increased prices, so be it. People are earning more to pay them.

The correct solutions to labour shortages are increased pay, improved efficiency, investment in education and training, and automation. Mass immigration is a “cure” that is far worse than the disease.

RW
RW
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

I don’t know what you’re replying to, but it’s certainly not the text I wrote. Birth rates among peoples who have fully integrated ‘free’ women into the economy through the miracle pill enabling them to avoid getting pregnant are too low to offset the amount of natural deaths. Hence, other, typically (not yet) in this way afflicted people move in to fill the freed up spaces. That’s simply going to happen.

As usual, there’s no agenda. Just an attempt to get out of a hole by digging harder. Our ruling classes are singularly uncreative in this respect as take a step back and think about what’s going wrong here is not in their DNA.

Mark
4 years ago
Reply to  RW

I don’t know what you’re replying to, but it’s certainly not the text I wrote. “

Then you need to reread both posts, because mine was a direct response to yours, which argued for mass immigration as a supposedly necessary response to a supposed population decline problem.

If that’s not what you intended to write, then you need to clarify, because it is both what you wrote in your first post and what you repeated in your second.

RW
RW
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Yours was a direct response to a political standpoint you read into my texts. But I just wrote this is happening because the conditions enabled it and also, because it’s the cheap plastic (pretended) solution to a problem whose existence the people who created it aren’t willing to admit. A crude rendering of the underlying idea could be All people are equal(ly valueless), hence, if we’re running out of X people here, we can just get Y people from elsewhere and nothing else needs to change. I considers this an ex post factum rationalization of a process which was already well underway before someone saw a need for such a rationalization.

My opinion on this is that this is very much regrettable. But my opinion on this is completely irrelevant.

LMS2
4 years ago
Reply to  RW

It wasn’t automatic that other peoples should move here to fill the gaps left by falling birth rates. That was a political decision, first taken just after WW2 by the Labour government, just as birth rates had risen, i.e. the baby boom immediately after the war. They invited the 800 million people of the Commonwealth to settle here, at a time of recovery, when there was a housing shortage and no worker shortage.
Then they passed the Race Relations Act because people weren’t happy about the numbers coming to the UK. Labour had assumed that people from warmer countries wouldn’t want to come to cold and rainy Britain.
Their estimates of expected migrants was every bit as accurate as their estimates of EU migrants when Blair invited the EU to migrate to the UK.

Hugh
Hugh
4 years ago
Reply to  LMS2

There is a cast iron rule of history about peoples with a low birth rate. And it doesn’t end well for them.

Hugh
Hugh
4 years ago
Reply to  RW

This pill (apart from harming the aquatic environment) means pressure on women to be always available and appears to have resulted in 45% of young women with some sort of mental health problem, nearly a quarter of 14 year old girls self harming, and so on. basically it has enslaved women (among other things).

PartyTime
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

It’s also a “problem” that can be turned around, if that is even needed, by providing economic incentives for family formation, as Russia has demonstrated. Russia is arguably underpopulated; I don’t think the same can be said of the UK.

Mark
4 years ago
Reply to  PartyTime

Of course.

But in order to turn it round, you have to allow the population to decline, for counter-incentives to build up. Mass immigration therefore displaces any healthy solutions.

LMS2
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Not necessarily. Hungary has instituted a family-friendly policy, rewarding couples who have children, and they’ve reversed their declining birth rate. It just takes political will.
But the Hungarian president is excoriated by other leaders and the socialists for being a tyrant, a xenophobe, etc, etc.

PartyTime
4 years ago
Reply to  PartyTime

It would also help the birth rate if the government didn’t trash the economy on the pretext of a bad flu year.

Nearhorburian
Nearhorburian
4 years ago
Reply to  PartyTime

Didn’t they make it a criminal offence for lovers who lived apart to meet?

Hugh
Hugh
4 years ago
Reply to  Nearhorburian

So much for not interfering with consenting adults behind closed doors…

Hugh
Hugh
4 years ago
Reply to  PartyTime

Not a “problem”, a problem.

Russia is grossly underpopulated, the UK is underpopulated. You could easily have a much bigger population in the UK. Indeed, the entire world population could be comfortably housed in an area the size of the Isle of Skye.

Hugh
Hugh
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Bottom line is, if you have a rapidly increasing elderly population (as we will for decades to come, unless the Gates mob come up with a “solution”) and a static or declining younger population, most people are going to get poorer.

LMS2
4 years ago
Reply to  RW

It’s typified by the Guardian, which on the one hand argues that we should have fewer children, smaller families to “save the planet,” and will also call for more immigration.

Hugh
Hugh
4 years ago
Reply to  LMS2

Ah, the Grauniad also wants to have its cake and eat it…

LMS2
4 years ago
Reply to  RW

Since the sixties at least, there’s been a concerted effort to persuade women that their place is at work, having a career.
Smaller families, fewer children would have meant the British would have remained static at around 60 million, but the political Left and business interests have both meant that a static population couldn’t be tolerated. The Left wanted new voters. Business wanted more workers for an expanding economy.

2fa7d0a88050eafe053d63c456a9f97ed5bade8efd3f40b75f9fd18aec1075c7.jpg
Mezzo18
Mezzo18
4 years ago
Reply to  LMS2

The ‘push’ for women to have careers and financial independence from men came from women themselves and absolutely right too. Professional women don’t need men, except for sex and friendship, and often don’t want children either, and that is absolutely our right.

The problem is the women who are not capable of being professionals or, indeed, doing anything much apart from breeding people as stupid as themselves, don’t want men either. They would rather live on benefits. Perhaps men need to think about why that could be.

Hugh
Hugh
4 years ago
Reply to  Mezzo18

Yes. I remember reading that shocking story about how it was decided in the 19th century that women should not push wagons of coal down the pits with the men…

Trouble is, pressuring mothers to work (as if raising their own children rather than outsourcing to the state is of no value to those who are willing and able), and pressuring women to always be available (see the famous pill) is also a form of tyranny (and for that matter the pressure on women with crisis pregnancies that main stream science does not seem interested in addressing).

William Gruff
William Gruff
4 years ago
Reply to  Hugh

‘Freedom’ is just a word women like the sound of; they have absolutely no idea what it means or how to obtain it.

William Gruff
William Gruff
4 years ago
Reply to  Mezzo18

Professional women tend to rely very heavily on men, and not just to repair the accident damage they do to their cars when trying to park them or unblock their drains clogged with sanitary towels and tampons and cooking fat or reassure them that their arse does not look huge in that. Women depend upon men to build the businesses in which they believe they are entitled to be given (non-executive) directorships and quota managerial places, even where they aren’t adequate for the job, and often they aren’t.

Have you ever stopped to think that some man somewhere designed your vibrator and the batteries that power it?

Hugh
Hugh
4 years ago
Reply to  LMS2

But of course, there has to be an expanding economy because of interest on national debts. Smells like a bit of a scam to me.

lorrinet
lorrinet
4 years ago
Reply to  RW

Does anyone remember, back in the 60s-70s, PM Harold Wilson going on about ‘overpopulation’? I recall a poster on our surgery wall urging us to limit the size of our families. At that time, orphaned children, and many also from ‘problem families’, and from single mothers were being sent by the ship-load to Australia (the scandal only came out fairly recently). And while that was still going on, we had ships arriving in British ports unloading immigrants from the Empire – Jamaicans, Indians and many others.others.

So it now becomes obvious that the agenda of population-replacement has been in play for a very long time. We were never asked if we wanted this, it was in no manifesto, ever. It was opposed by the majority, then we were silenced and the accusation of ‘waycissst’! became incendiary.

Hugh
Hugh
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

It’s what happens though if you outsource child rearing to third world countries. Really we ought to stop killing our own, under the guise of spurious exemptions. And certainly over half a century of liberal politics has been a disaster for the working class.

Aleajactaest
4 years ago

“it’s an obsession that replaces political argument with magical thinking and gives new legitimacy to bigotry. Racism matters. Whiteness does not.”

Projection anyone?

OnceIWasARemainer
OnceIWasARemainer
4 years ago
Reply to  Aleajactaest

Racism can be gotten rid of in the long term simply by ensuring children are exposed to people of other races and see them as human beings just like themselves, we might never get racism out of the minds of some people*, but those people will age and die and be replaced by folks who don’t fall for such a petty ideology. What will not, ever, help is wokery, “positive”-discrimination, quotas and other such lunacy which attempts to stop racism simply by adding more racism in a direction opposite to the majority of racism previously present.

*and if it is in somebody’s mind but they treat others well regardless, then who cares anyway

Mark
4 years ago

Racism can be gotten rid of in the long term simply by ensuring children are exposed to people of other races and see them as human beings just like themselves

If that were true then societies that are profoundly racially mixed would be the least racist. But that isn’t what we see. In practice what we tend to see in racially mixed societies are balkanisation of politics and society based on racial and related cultural loyalties.

Yes, people find ways to rub along – the result isn’t generally universal racial hatred and endless race war. But it equally certainly isn’t some kind of idealised “colour-blind” society. That’s just not human nature.

You could argue for the modern UK being perhaps the closest there has ever been to a genuinely colour-blind substantial society, based upon a traditional indigenous culture of decency and tolerance combined with an aggressive campaign of political indoctrination and suppression of dissent, against “racism”. What has the result been? Woke anti-white fanatical racism, endemic and near universally culturally dominant.

Mezzo18
Mezzo18
4 years ago

Racism, in its purist form, is an irrational hatred of people whose ancestors developed particular physical characteristics to deal with the challenges of the climate and terrain of the part of the world in which they found themselves. Most people would agree that discriminating against or disliking someone purely because of a physical characteristic, whether it is skin colour, hair colour or a facial disfigurement or disability is ignorant. That is not, however, the issue here. The issue is culture which, in most cases, is based on religion. Very few people nowadays, unless they live in parts of London with a strong gang culture, are prejudiced against West Indians. They are Christians; often very committed and active Christians and, after several generations, have become British people who just happen to be black. Very few people are prejudiced against Hindus or Sikhs because they work hard, are often high achieving business or professional people, and pursue their religion quietly and unobtrusively. The problem is a religion which not only does not accept our values but tries to impose its own on us and inspires its followers to commit acts of terrorism on our soil. That is what most people cannot accept,… Read more »

William Gruff
William Gruff
4 years ago

You may one day be old enough and wise enough to realise that preferring the safety and security that comes from living amongst your own kind is not some wholly fictitious ism created solely for the purpose of preventing you from doing so. In group preference is entirely natural and only seems to be a heinous crime against humanity in White people, who have far more worth defending than the non-Whites who are destroying it.

LMS2
4 years ago
Reply to  Aleajactaest

Absolutely.

peyrole
peyrole
4 years ago

The voting in several northern towns is now dominated by sub-continent issues, specifically those surrounding Kashmir. Add to this the continuing ‘grooming’ issues and setting fire to young women in the streets and you already have your answer.
A large proprtion of the Pakistani community in the UK have no wish to assmilate or take on British cultural norms. They wish to transplant their own to areas of Britain.
This has to be addressed openly without fear of accusations and reprisals. Otherwise society as a whole is doomed, it will descend into anarchy.

LMS2
4 years ago
Reply to  peyrole

The UK will ultimately tear itself apart, just as Yugoslavia did.
Multicultural, multiethnic countries don’t hold together very well. People are tribal.

Hugh
Hugh
4 years ago
Reply to  LMS2

Question is, will the “United States of Europe” do the same?

Hugh
Hugh
4 years ago
Reply to  peyrole

I heard Switzerland have quite a good immigration policy…

William Gruff
William Gruff
4 years ago
Reply to  Hugh

I heard Switzerland have quite a good immigration policy…

As does Israel.

William Gruff
William Gruff
4 years ago
Reply to  peyrole

Some of them say they’d like to cut our heads off unless we do things their way.

TheGreenAcres
4 years ago

To me it isn’t the colour of a person that matters at all. It’s the culture. Today in parts of Britain – almost entire towns in some parts – are essentially a parallel community, governed by local ‘community leaders’.

Mark
4 years ago
Reply to  TheGreenAcres

Colour and culture are inextricably interlinked, in practice. The anti-white racists of BLM and woke understand this, but they cynically pretend it isn’t true in one direction but is true in the other.

This is one reason the current “respectable” attempts (by the likes of Toby Young, who want to resist woke anti-white racism whilst desperately avoiding being tarred with the taboo term themselves) to resist the anti-white racists by insisting on pushing their taboo against “racism” of the other kind is doomed to defeat. By repeatedly reinforcing the “antiracist” taboo, they help what they think they are fighting.

The underlying cultural problem is the anti-rational tabooisation of “racism”, which must defeat any attempt to pursue the issues rationally, inevitably and by design.

RW
RW
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Whiteness is a silly US concept devoid of any meaning outside of the USA[*] (as is colourness, for that matter, the Africans certainly don’t believe they’re all the same). Eg, I emphatically insist that I’m German and not white and that that’s something different from English (also not white). Because English people sometimes think I must be Polish (also not white), I have to endure periodic street level abuse including serious violence (as in kicking someone’s head — outnumbered and dealing with another guy at that time 🙂 ).

[*] Even in the USA, it’s ill-defined as it commonly excludes people of Spanish descent for some mystery reason.

LMS2
4 years ago
Reply to  RW

Whiteness is a concept deliberately designed to create racial tension, and guilt and self-loathing in people who are ethnically white. It’s the old divide-and-conquer.

RW
RW
4 years ago
Reply to  LMS2

I’m not ethnically white. That’s some American airhead’s idea of the world because his world is restricted to the USA, historically also referred to as ethnic melting pot, and he’s both unaware of the fact things are different outside of the USA and unwilling to learn that. I’m ethnically German.

Hugh
Hugh
4 years ago
Reply to  RW

I always wandered why Latin Americans do not count as “white”. The Spanish I’ve known were pretty “white”.

William Gruff
William Gruff
4 years ago
Reply to  RW

Same here; I’m an Englishman and have never thought of myself or those who look like me, even though of other nationalities, as White, however, others do and so I must use the term as a convenient shorthand to describe us collectively when discussing issues of immigration and ‘race’.

RickH
4 years ago

Not sure what this article is doing here, beyond distracting from the Covid issues.

The debate about such terms as ‘British Heritage’ is immense, and will (I predict, without checking) lead to a surge of simplistic and irrelevant bollocks and hysteria.

RickH
4 years ago
Reply to  RickH

I’ve now checked.

I who has lived with and dealt with the issues involved) – was right.

Mark
4 years ago
Reply to  RickH

I who has lived with and dealt with the issues involved

Indeed, your generation were among the primary Guilty Men for the crime of mass immigration inflicted upon this nation, even if the worst numbers came with your Blairite spiritual and political successors.

Mark
4 years ago
Reply to  RickH

Not sure what this article is doing here, beyond distracting from the Covid issues.the issues I want us to be allowed to talk about

What you meant, as opposed to what you wrote.

“The debate about such terms as ‘British Heritage’ is immense, and will (I predict, without checking) lead to a surge of simplistic and irrelevant bollocks.”

Gosh, RickH responds to somebody talking about something he’d prefer wasn’t mentioned by resorting to childish abuse. There’s a shock!

RickH
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Oh dear – I thank you, as the author of so much irrelevancy and axe-grinding, for proving I was right so promptly and predictably.

Sorry that, as a ‘child’, I actually bother about the case against Covid being diverted by generalized distractions that will paint it into a corner and actively reduce support, while you rattle on about your particular obsessions.

I couldn’t care less what your particular views are on such topics, and am quite able to engage in a debate about ethnicity and immigration etc. But not here – for the simple reason that this confusion of objectives will have the opposite effect in terms of building support. That I do know.

As to term ‘obsessions’, bug-eyed and ahistorical religious phraseology such as this, linked to a problem of many layers :

the disastrous, evil policy of mass immigration

.. rather proves the point.

Mark
4 years ago
Reply to  RickH

Again, you write “irrelevancy and axe-grinding” when what you clearly mean, based on your words and behaviour, is “opinions I wish could not be expressed.”

Sadly for you, the technique that you undoubtedly find works in most discussion locations, doesn’t seem to work here.

LMS2
4 years ago
Reply to  RickH

Mass immigration is currently at the top of people’s concerns at the moment, along with CV19, and especially illegal immigration.
This is not a distraction. It’s part of the same deliberate mismanagement by our successive governments, and will prove more deadly in the long run.

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Hugh
Hugh
4 years ago
Reply to  LMS2

Still, imagine what the Grauniad might say about these comments if they’re reading.

Nearhorburian
Nearhorburian
4 years ago
Reply to  RickH

Mass immigration and multi-culturalism are just as much part of the decades-long attack on our people and culture as the global warming and covid lies, so it is perfectly reasonable to talk about them on a site now called The Daily Sceptic.

Hugh
Hugh
4 years ago
Reply to  Nearhorburian

Reasonable for the people who run this site to talk about whatever they want in a free country. \but is it wise?

Sandra Barwick
Sandra Barwick
4 years ago
Reply to  RickH

Yes, it’s a brave discussion to suggest, but an irrelevant topic currently. Who is on the side against tyranny is the question. I find those who have come here from Communist or corrupt countries are often far less susceptible to the current lies and abuse of power than the English, who have had relative freedom for so long that they are falling for lies like flies to sticky paper.
I am very grateful to those descended from Africa or via the Caribbean who are refusing the injections because they have been conned in the past. They are making life more difficult for this corrupt authority. Thank you.

William Gruff
William Gruff
4 years ago
Reply to  RickH

The debate about such terms as ‘British Heritage’ is immense, and will (I predict, without checking) lead to a surge of simplistic and irrelevant bollocks and hysteria.

Am I correct in predicting that only those who agree with your too often to be excusable, unwashed-adolescent-brick-throwing-protester opinions are reasoned, relevant and rational?

Manjushri
Manjushri
4 years ago

Soros must be grinning from ear to ear listening to his brainwashed whore of babylon.
It is my belief that George Soros and his son Jonathan are the instigators and funders of these top-down protest organisations: Antifa, Open Borders, Occupy, BLM, Extinction Rebellion and Animal Rebellion. Purpose is to create as much citizen disharmony as possible….divide and conquer.

Mark
4 years ago

When I was young, the UK population was projected to stabilise at around 55-60m and then decline a little perhaps, depending how people responded to changing incentives for having children.

Instead the floodgates were opened by Blair after 1997, and levels of mass immigration followed that were literally unprecedented in recorded British history.

Our population is now, according to the unreliable and dishonest Official Truth, just under 70 million and forecast to increase further, but unofficial estimates suggest this hugely underestimates the real population, mostly because so much immigration has been covert.

Does anyone seriously believe 55-60m people was “too few” to live on these islands? That we are “better off” with 70-80m, many in entire communities with cultural attitudes and loyalties that are utterly alien to the indigenous culture, and will likely never be integrated until generations and probably civil conflicts and wars have passed, to resolve the differences?

Hugh
Hugh
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

It’s not too many, within reason. And look at the global population projections from the ’70’s. The global birth rate has been decreasing almost every year since 1968, leaving us with the current mess.

OnceIWasARemainer
OnceIWasARemainer
4 years ago

Being British is a purely cultural, not racial thing, I couldn’t give a **** what colour anybody’s skin is, just so long as they care about freedom. Anyone developing the right mindset can become every bit as British as someone born here, such people should be fully accepted as Briton’s, not f***ed around by home office scumbags.

Nearhorburian
Nearhorburian
4 years ago

Complete nonsense.

Is being a Navajo, a Zulu or a Maori a “purely cultural” thing?

And exactly how and by whom is it decided if someone is “culturally British” or not? What are the units of measurement and what are the pass marks?

You’re essentially denying the existence of the indigenous population – and our ancestors were here long before the ancestors of the Navajo, Zulus and Maoris settled in their current locations.

Gtec
Gtec
4 years ago
Reply to  Nearhorburian

I’m not British, I’m English, that is my ethnicity, which happens to be white, my culture, and my heritage; all of these make up my ‘cultural’ identity. You cannot unpick them and pretend that this or that component doesn’t matter if you happen to be ‘white’; they all do, as we ALL are the sum of our parts. And ‘race’ doesn’t mean just colour; the Baltic states, especially Latvia and Estonia, had very large and growing Russian populations at the time of their independence from the former Soviet Union, and enacted very strict measures to counter this growth as they felt their culture and heritage to be ‘threatened’ by Russian domination. Like us all, we react when we feel what makes us ‘us’ is being undermined, and that goes for all ethnic groups and races, and to say that being ‘human’ transcends those differences is not good enough. On that basis you could say that as we are mammals that we are no different to any other mammals, which is patently not true – just ask my cats, they’re in charge! I suppose, bottom line, it comes down to numbers, and how well and how quickly newcomers from any background… Read more »

Hugh
Hugh
4 years ago
Reply to  Gtec

I’m an Englishman, a Scotsman and an Irishman…
Part of Lithuania used to be in Prussia. I understand most of the German speakers were evicted (or worse) from “Eastern” Europe.
“When in Rome, do as the Romans do” is, I tend to think, still a sensible policy.

Hugh
Hugh
4 years ago
Reply to  Nearhorburian

I know a Welshman who became an honorary tribal leader of the Yoruba…
And Chinese were in London over 1,500 years ago (much to the disappointment of the British National Party, one assumes).

William Gruff
William Gruff
4 years ago
Reply to  Nearhorburian

His is the fundamental irrationality of all Civic Nationalists. It may just work well enough when things are going well but tensions are inevitable when competition for resources develops, as it must, and then everything breaks down along ethnic lines, simply because it is the nature of all animals, humans included, to prefer their own kind.

RW
RW
4 years ago

That’s correct at the individual level: Every individual can learn how to integrate into a certain kind of majority society. But if you have some thousands of such individuals living together in a distinct area, they’ll only integrate when they have to go outside of it. Why would they playact being British when they’re at home among themselves?

Mark
4 years ago

Being British is a purely cultural, not racial thing

This is an assertion of an article of faith on your part.

As such, it’s fine, as long as you accept the right of others to disagree with you about it.

I couldn’t give a **** what colour anybody’s skin is, just so long as they care about freedom. Anyone developing the right mindset can become every bit as British as someone born here, such people should be fully accepted as Briton’s, not f***ed around by home office scumbags.”

Again, that’s fine as an assertion of your personal faith, and what you desperately hope and believe to be the truth. As long as you accept the right of others to disagree with you.

But is it genuinely your belief that eg the substantial majority muslim immigrant communities dotted around the UK as a result of the policies of the past half century will somehow magically acquire “British values”, whatever you choose to believe those are?

Hugh
Hugh
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

The “Conservative” party had a list of these allegedly “British” values didn’t they?

1984
1984
4 years ago

Dunno. I found the Observer article surprisingly balanced but Lionel’s piece somewhat discomforting. Disclaimer: as a Lockdown Sceptic I recently had cause to revisit Eric Clapton’s unfortunate thoughts on a similar subject from 1976. I personally think maybe Blue Mink’s Melting Pot offers a very good vision of what should be possible but yes it’s complicated

LMS2
4 years ago
Reply to  1984

Blue Monk’s “Melting Pot” means no diversity. It means the eradication of all ethnicities into a single homogenized people. There’d be no blonds. No Asians. No Aborigines. No Japanese. No native Americans. No whites. No black Africans. Etc cetera.
A socialist dream, except they’d have to come up with something else to divide people.

Mark
4 years ago
Reply to  1984

I found the Observer article surprisingly balanced but Lionel’s piece somewhat discomforting.”

Most likely for the same reason most normies – especially in the heavily indoctrinated medical professions – find it uncomfortable to be around or associated with anything they interpret as “anti-vax”. These are topics that have been systematically tabooised and propagandised against.

Hugh
Hugh
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark

I wonder why

Nissan Gnat
Nissan Gnat
4 years ago

“A dust whom England Bore, shaped, made aware
Gave once her flowers to love her ways to roam
A body of England breathing English air
Washed by the rivers, blessed by sun’s of home”

Probably defines the difference between being English and being British and frankly shouldn’t offend anyone in doing so

William Gruff
William Gruff
4 years ago
Reply to  Nissan Gnat

You can be fairly sure that it will offend anyone who is here to take and take and take, often aggressively, with never a thought of giving and fears the awakening of the ethnic consciousness of the English.

LMS2
4 years ago

If you swap the people of Japan for the people of Zimbabwe, the people of Zimbabwe don’t suddenly become Japanese, and vice versa.
Ditto replacing the people of Britain with those from other countries who are ethnically and culturally completely different. Even if they adopt some British customs, those people are not the same as the people they’ve replaced.
It is illegal, under international law, to deliberately replace an indigenous people with those from another nation, as the Chinese are attempting to do in Tibet.
Despite the British people having been in this country for thousands of years, far, far longer than the Maori have been in New Zealand, for example, were not considered to be indigenous, but the Maori are. The Maori didn’t arrive in NZ until the reign of Edward II.

Hugh
Hugh
4 years ago
Reply to  LMS2

The Normans (who still own a disproportionately large amount of land in England)have been her rather less long.

Jon Mors
Jon Mors
4 years ago

The people that live here have a right to determine who comes here. We do not need to give any reason for our decision. It doesn’t need to go any further than that.

Homogenous societies are often high trust societies and society can roll along without much need for a central authority that enforces rules. That is not true for a diverse society, although it does depend to an extent on the ethnic groups involved.

The truth is that different ethnic groups do have certain average traits, and it is entirely rational for individuals to make a judgement about members of that group on the basis of their pre-conceptions.

We should however make an effort to get to know people individually, and make an effort to challenge our preconceptions about a group, purely as a matter of fairness.

In principle you could test would-be immigrants for the underlying traits we care about, like IQ and conscientiousness (and scepticism!), but it gets hard with the softer traits. And, as we have found, if the tests tend to lead to lower scores for a certain group, that means the tests themselves are racist!

William Gruff
William Gruff
4 years ago
Reply to  Jon Mors

‘We should however make an effort to get to know people individually, and make an effort to challenge our preconceptions about a group, purely as a matter of fairness.‘ Why? Why are we obliged (that is what ‘should’ means) to be fair to people whose generally unwanted presence amongst us is criminally unfair to us and, much more importantly, our descendants? What an odd concept. That we are not just expected but also compelled to be more than fair to those who have no intention of being fair to us is a very large part of the problem that confronts us. I agree with most of the rest of what you have written. However, with regard to your last paragraph, there is no need to test anyone for desirability and compatibility unless there is some real and pressing need for their permanent or temporary presence amongst. They should not be allowed to come here otherwise. While our history does show that a very few very talented foreigners have chosen to live amongst us and contribute to our scientific, technical and cultural heritage the progress of our forefathers in building Jerusalem, not just for us but for the rest of the… Read more »

Hugh
Hugh
4 years ago
Reply to  Jon Mors

I understand the Faroe islands are a high trust society.
I’m not a big believer in terms like choc-ice and gammon though. And I despise these elitist “IQ” tests, which can in any case have varying results in the same individual depending on a number of factors.

William Gruff
William Gruff
4 years ago

I’m English, not British, and I have thought of and described myself as such for years because I saw long ago that when anyone from anywhere can be ‘British’ Britishness cannot mean anything. The label merely endows those who are not English, and may dislike us to the extent of wishing to kill us, with the right to live in England at English expense.

Hugh
Hugh
4 years ago
Reply to  William Gruff

Depends what you mean by British.

I understand that the White dragon flag has been used to represent the ethnic English. And I understand that the Labour party despises the values of the ethnic English working class. Which rather leads one to ask what they are for…

William Gruff
William Gruff
4 years ago
Reply to  Hugh

Depends what you mean by British.

I thought I’d made that clear. What didn’t you understand?

TheBigman
TheBigman
4 years ago

Reap what you sow.

Hugh
Hugh
4 years ago
Reply to  TheBigman

Not if it’s dandelions…