A New Direct Democracy Initiative for Those Fed Up With Two-Faced Politicians
David Seedhouse, Honorary Professor of Deliberative Practice at Aston University and a contributor to Lockdown Sceptics, is launching a new direct democracy initiative called Our Decision Too. In an article in today’s Conservative Woman he explains why it’s needed.
If someone were to ask me: “Excuse me, friend, how do we bring about meaningful democracy in 2021?” I would also say: “Well, sir, if I were you, I wouldn’t start from here.”
I wouldn’t start from a system where every few years millions of citizens have just one opportunity to vote for a single individual who must represent not only their views about policy but the views of every other constituent as well. This is quite obviously an impossible task.
I would not start from a system where MPs are obliged to vote in line with their party’s mandates.
I would not start from a system where political parties publish gleaming manifestos only to ignore them as soon as they win power.
I would not start from a system where a cabal of bureaucrats with their own interests to advance advise MPs who can know only so much.
I would not start from a system where lobby groups, cronyism, inter-party fighting, blatant corruption and the personal interests of politicians create an unbridgeable chasm between government and the people.
In fact I would not start with a system where there are political parties at all. Tinkering will not bring about meaningful democracy. The political elite will not endorse meaningful reform in a million years. So we need to do what they do to us – ignore them and make our own decisions.
Lockdown Sceptics featured the project two months ago when it first started out. Now it has been given its own website and David wants to grow the membership from its current level – over 1,000 – to many more.
We have now recruited more than 1,000 members, debated 55 issues in depth, have had more than 3,000 intelligent responses to the issues, and have generated patterns of members’ values that clearly show the sort of society we want. And this is just the start. …
The site uses various methods to include citizens in decision-making. Issues are discussed in a deliberative fashion rather than decided via simple polling. Democracy requires education, knowledge and reflection, not just blind allegiance to one or another anachronistic political party.
We include people from any and every background. All opinions are welcome. Nothing is censored, hidden, or withheld unless it is illegal or plainly offensive. Everyone’s views and the patterns of their choices are immediately available to all participants, and there are filters to enable ‘deep diving’ into the transparent data.
If you would like to join, simply:
1) Go here
2) Login as prompted
3) You will automatically be in the group which is here
4) Explore and respond to issues, comment on reports, make friends and make a difference.
Then, if you like what you see, invite everyone else who wouldn’t start from here either.
Read David’s piece in ConWom here.
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Changing a country’s entire political system is not an easy thing. But we can start here: https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/561730 We can force the government to make this law. Who watches the watchmen? Who makes sure that the people making the laws are accountable in front of the law? The government works for us, is accountable to us, must respond to us, and must acknowledge us, not the other way around.
135 days and waiting for a debate date….
“Force” them? How?
Maybe that’s a more useful question to ask than “should we disband parties?” How does the people tell the government they want something to happen?
So far, the system is rigged. You can have red apples, you can have green apples, and you can even have yellow apples. Lots of choice! But if you want an orange, you’re out of luck. Representative democracy only works when the candidates actually represent the population. When they do what the population wants them to do. That doesn’t seem to be the case.
But to more directly answer your question: protest. We all need to get out on the streets and make our desires known.
Who’s ‘we’?
The electorate. The citizens. If you have something to say, say it.
We can also all stop wearing masks, stop using hand sanitizer everytime we walk into a shop, pub etc, stop getting tested to see if we’re ill 🙄 and start singing everywhere we go 😊
Sounds like a great start to me — I have been doing this all the time but it would be FANTASTIC if everyone did it
The only long term solution that I can think of is too have far more referendums. Currently people can either vote for a party because they like some of their policies and find themselves effectively voting for policies they don’t agree with, or choose not to vote at all. Although most issues are complex in detail it’s fairly easy to reduce them to a yes/no question, e.g. should we pay an extra1p in the pound income tax to raise more money for the NHS? Alternatively we could be given a limited range of options, e.g. 1p in the pound on the basic rate of tax, 2p on the top rate, cut defence spending and give the money to the NHS, or keep the level of funding as it is. The government would be responsible for deciding which questions are asked and which options are presented, and if you think they’re asking the wrong questions then you vote for a different party at the next election. Once the subject of the vote is announced people would have, lets say 3 months, to debate the issue at work/online/down the pub etc. before voting. Presumably it’s possible to introduce secure online voting as… Read more »
“The government works for us, is accountable to us, must respond to us, and must acknowledge us”
Ha ha ha ha ha – had me there for a mo; almost thought you were being serious.
Are you implying that the government should not work for the people, and instead the people must to the government’s bidding?
Who’s ‘the people’? Favourite term for totalitarians.
“Who”, another word that totalitarians and despots use all the time. As well as breathing. Sure sign of a totalitarian right there!
You’re not helping much. If you have something to say, say it. But picking up commonly used words and pretending like you’re on to something is childish, at best. If you have a problem recognizing that a country is made up of people then I suggest you stop worrying about social issues.
What a silly foot-stamping non-response.
My point is that the term ‘the people’ is used as if there was some such coherent entity, rather than a melange of conflicting interests. And, yes, the notion of some numinous coherent body is unarguably a device used by totalitarians who wish to simply eliminate contrary views to their own within a society.
No one made any assumption of coherence. Thinking that democracy presumes some sort of coherence is naive.
In case you don’t know (and I assume you don’t, given the nature of your response), democracy means “the rule of the people”.
Sounds to me like you are ignorantly making assumptions which have nothing to do with what I said. How about you stick to what I actually say instead?
The trouble with the rule of the people is that they do things like vote for lockdowns, or worse. Ideally the rule of the people has to be tempered by limits on the power of the state that is agreed must not be exceeded. But if the state manipulates the people into believing that fundamental rights must be suspended to protect their safety, then those limits can just be ignored too, with no repercussions, as has happened all over the world.
And no, I don’t have any simplistic answers.
As I have said elsewhere in this thread, there are many, many problems with democracy. Frankly, it sucks, precisely for the reason you mention: the majority are at best uninformed, at worst idiots. But we don’t have anything better. A wise supreme ruler is best, until he’s replaced by an all-powerful despot. All we can really do is rely on democracy until we figure out something better (Asimov’s supercomputers running an entire planet?) and make sure that the people are as educated and informed as possible.
And I think we’re on the right track here, considering the elites are trying to keep the people as uninformed and as uneducated as possible.
Asimov’s supercomputers running an entire planet? Better?! That’s pretty much what the elite are planning right now. Huge banks of computers controlling our speech, our carbon emissions, our travel, our satisfaction levels, our food intake, our health status and so on.
I agree. ‘The People’ is an awful term and should be substituted with ‘the public’.
Indeed, the people have been complicit.
The concept of inalienable rights has been lost. I don’t know how you’d get them back, other than perhaps with more education on the subject – drum it into the culture.
The main issue as I see it is the way the govt has been able to manipulate public opinion. If there were a way to prevent them from being able to do that so easily, we may have had a different outcome.
You’re so right, the sheeple just go about their days, having laws galore to protect them from employment law that there is no shit that’s going to hit heir fan. I was once like them, now self employed, they need to wake up. Inalienable right’s are ours, not to be negotiated but why would you need them if you were so protected?
They should, but they don’t. And they won’t. Just look around you.
Total naivety, 15 months and people are still as gullible as they were in March 2020. Hey guys, lets put a petition together on the government (a fascist totalitarian coalition government btw) and maybe write to our MPs as well….
That will really sock it to ’em, eh?
I don’t see how making it law for MPs to not mislead the public is naive… Care to explain?
To freely borrow from the late great Louis Armstrong…
To freely borrow from Richard Feynman:
To freely borrow from the sign behind most public bars..
In the meantime rather than trying to score free info from others, try taking the time to study common law and the British constitution (and a dollop of political philosophy).
You might learn that simplistic liberal/woke/vaxx friendly solutions (such as those being proposed by Prof. Seedhouse) to fundamental political problems, that have exercised greater minds over several millennia than any politician currently on the world stage, are not going to work.
Your analysis of democracy fails to scratch the surface, but in fairness so does the sales pitch of Prof Seedhouse, but I guess in both instances it’s not meant to? Rather the aim appears to be to fire off a few select virtuous but vacuous phrases in the hope enough suckers will agree, and the others won’t notice.
In conclusion, if you have something to say, say it. If you have an argument to make, make it. If you have something to add, add it. But your silly childish claims, as amusing as they may be, are a waste of everyone’s time.
To you I haven’t, as you haven’t presented anything of substance to respond to, or shown the basic knowledge needed to understand my points.
I do you a kindness in the use of term I must admit, but is the following gibberish really meant to convince anyone?
Go find out how the complex symbiotic interaction between the State and the People works and has always worked (including Plato, Aristotle, Hobbes, Machiavelli, Rousseau and Locke), and meanwhile stop wasting ‘everyone’s time’.
The problem with that approach is that it will involve something like Ofcom or the Electoral Commission being set up – maybe Ofdem. The Ofdem commissioners will all be drawn from the usual Guardian-led PC Globalist pool. They will see it as their prime purpose to persecute populists and (real) conservatives. They will allow the pro-globalist MPs to carry on lying to the public.
Ultimately, it is our responsibility as citizens to get the government back on track. But how do you do that when the government make the laws, own the police and the military, and have complete immunity?
You can only do it by voting in huge numbers for populist parties that value freedom. Yes, the “system” will undoubtedly fight back. That then becomes a test of the strength of the people’s will to be free.
Isn’t it funny how at least two people downvoted my comment because they want the people to remain docile sheep? Even here, on a website where one would expect to find sceptical people, against government control and abuse, you can find people that hate those who want freedom.
Sadly the petition is closed
It is, but it was on the right track. Making MPs liable for their lies is a small, but important step. Also, the dismissive attitude towards this request, as well as the fact that it is close, expose a very deep rot.
Well meaning wibble and waffle.
No despotism has every been overthrown by asking nicely.
And certainly not as long as they are able to bribe the people into acceptance…
A systemic change will happen one day, after the catastrophe and when the money has run out.
I hope it can be a libertarian and more direct democracy then, more likely, it will need sortition to overcome everything the author rightly bemoans.
The Swiss had and later endorsed the whole Covid scam too.
More direct democracy was no saviour in that regard.
I laud the effort, and in the UK, due to FPTP, any such change would be welcome.
I am just at the stage where I do not see a point anymore to engage myself politically for this youth and and mankind.
The former wants to and deserves to be enslaved, the latter deserves to go extinct now.
Although I am forced to agree with your analysis, the biggest problem here surely has got to be the aggressive censorship of any view questioning government actions. The vast majority of the populus are simply unaware of most of the facts because they are not readily available, even in Switzerland. Direct democracy can only work when freedom of speech is allowed to flourish, or any other form of democracy for that matter.
Absolutely – see my comments on the regulation of Big Tech.
Besides free speech, there is another problem with democracy: the freedom of choice. Currently, we cannot choose who we want to represent us. You get a set of choices, and that’s it. Even worse, you only get two real choices: Conservatory or Labour. It’s like the games we used to play as kids. “Heads, I win. Tails, you lose.”
There are some deep, fundamental problems with democracy. People have spent the last 2500 years trying to think of a way to solve them. And others have spent nearly as long trying to figure out how to abuse it. Unfortunately, it’s the best system we have.
I think it falls down badly when fundamental rights are overriden by a mad majority, as has happened with covid.
Yes – the fundamental issue is that majoritarianism isn’t the same as democracy.
The rule of the majority is a fundamental problem with democracy. That’s what the US electoral college tried to address, and it is working to a certain extent. But what else can we do? Have entrance exams that you need to pass in order to vote, in order to ensure that only informed voters get to make decisions? Somehow it doesn’t seem right.
It’s very hard, yes.
”What else can we do?”
A written constitution that enshrines fundamental rights that can only be changed by a supermajority and an effective legal system that interprets the constitution literally.
Corona madness has taken hold almost everywhere, at least in the rich world, more or less regardless of the nominal leanings of the regime in power, constitutional protections and system of representation.
Perhaps we could start by looking at places not seized by the madness quite so much and establish some reasons, if there are any. South Dakota seems to have quite a libertarian culture, Florida and Tanzania had outspoken leaders, Sweden for some reason decided to listen to sensible scientists and to respect its constitution.
But ultimately the backstop has to be the people, who have been generally pathetic. Some mechanism to keep governments away from the use of propaganda would be helpful, and some guarantees for freedom of speech via the regulation of Big Tech platforms – they have to be forced by law to not censor anything in return for immunity from prosecution regarding the content they carry.
I think we’re just in a cycle where people have regressed to the emotional maturity of petulant children, and we’ve had a perfect storm of circumstances that have led us to where we are.
Just to say that I’ve nothing against initiatives like the one described and they may well be helpful. God knows it wouldn’t be hard to improve on what we’ve got. Just thinking specifically about how covid-safety madness was allowed to take hold.
At various times, I’ve been on different sides of a range of fences. That’s why I’m a tad sceptical of simplistic solutions.
One of the most instructive periods was that spent chairing a planning committee – a classic example of conflicts having to be settled – and usually with a resultant disgruntled party and a satisfied one.
The idea that getting into a circle, holding hands, singing ‘Zippety-doo-Dah’ and taking a vote would solve that sort of inherent conflict, or settle the argument, is sheer bollocks.
So – take the present situation. Imagine a popular majority vote supports lockdowns and all the other garbage. Where exactly does that get us?
Democracy can’t just depend upon a majority of ignorance on fundamental issues, and that is the problem in the current climate, which raises much more complex issues – particularly those involving inalienable individual rights, and prevention of the bias of wealth forming opinion.
With all due respect, I think you’re seriously under estimating the predicament we’re in. The perfect storm you’re alluding to has been meticulously choreographed over decades, if not a century. Whilst I’m loathe to incite violence as it goes against every grain in my being and most certainly is not the world I wish my young children to partake in, our problem isn’t confined to politics alone. Every single department of government, every institution of social governance, every world body, financial institutions, medical institutions and every company and corporation on board need to be razed to the ground, the world over. Global civil war is inevitable. Once it appears that they’re losing their grip on this shitshow and the global economy finally implodes, they’ll make sure the violence starts as it’s the only way they stand a chance of seeing it through. It’s a do-or-die for both sides. Sure, if peeps refuse to comply and peacefully take to the streets in their millions, we might achieve changing our democratic process in fifty years. It breaks my heart but I just can’t see a way that this is resolved and the world is turned into the better place you so rightfully… Read more »
There’s one simple way around this issue – in a democratic society, the fundamental rights of people must NEVER be taken away.
Yes that’s what’s so scary, different countries with different regimes the world over, all marching in lockstep.
Sorry – La La Land on Speed.
Deliberative ‘democracy’ is just as prone to manipulation and error on a national scale, although it can work on a smaller scale.
Currently, it would result in full-on lockdown, mask wearing in perpetuity and compulsory vaccination.
Not the answer to anything; money and command of resources would, for instance, be a crucial factor.
It’s just well-meaning naivety – a turd with varnish.
The only good thing to come out of this mess is to see the previously cosy liberal middle class panicking. Suddenly they are not quite so protected. But, to their credit, they knew they would have to pop their heads above the parapet at some point to keep the hegemony intact – and, Lordy oh Lordy, here they are! Teachers try and protect themselves from a flu bug by risking the lives of 9 million school kids – of which between 400 and 4000 will most certainly die of the vaxx, as sure as sitting the same number in a room and blowing it up. But because it is only 1 in 24,000 it doesn’t matter, and is easily lost in the accounting. The fact that only 1 in 2.5 million stand to die of C19 (between 1% and 0.1% of the expected vaxx slaughter) is neither here nor there, is it? Many medics have vanished, and have been utterly unprepared to speak out. Lawyers? Ditto. Academics? Oh my god, keep the students penned up while we stay safe. As for those MPs elected to look after their constituents interests, where are they? Now, having done bugger all but hide… Read more »
Too little time to proof read as well, lol….
“Plainly offensive” Oh dear, seems like another group who haven’t grasped what freedom of speech means
We need something similar to the Swiss referendum system but tailored for the UK. There should be a system by which Referenda can be put to the electorate regarding legislation, following a petition (maybe with a qualifying figure of one million). There should be a period after a piece of legislation is enacted to allow for a petition against the Act, in which case the Act would be put to a national vote. Emergency legislation should have a 3 month renewal on it and also be subject to annual Referenda. The system would need to be overseen by a Referendum Commission. This should not be appointed by Parliament, rather it should be appointed on the basis of a free vote. We should be able to vote for Rod LIddle or Calvin Robinson or Mahyar Tousi or Beverley Turner or anyone else we trust to sit on such a Commission. Other radical changes need to be made. The BBC, Electoral Commission, EHRC, and Ofcom all need to be abolished. We need to restate and embed our rights in a short constitution, in particular our right to Free Speech. Legal jeopardy should be created for those who seek to limit others’ free… Read more »
Honorary prof of deliberative practice. what is that ? meanwhile the far east and certain near east countries are taking over the physical manufacturing world and the critical infrastructure and the the AI machinery that will enslave all humanity. Toby had an article a few days ago bemoaning the lack of Brit resistance and spirit , the opportunity for easy resistance was last March, but no, the well meaning and the “influencers” backed away and told everyone to be good little boys and girls (and whatever pronoun one chooses) and do as we were told – how did that work out ? The resistance movement has been hobbled by the lack of understanding of the dire situation this nation and all others are in. No champion/spokesman-woman was allowed to emerge to counter the blanket pro govt madness. People like David Icke where allowed to take center stage at the early lockdown rallies. Or Corbyn , a well meaning and honest man – even his own brother won’t support him that’s how deep the corruption runs. Without a charismatic leadership the resistance is going nowhere until the ordinary folk run out of hope and money. The best we have at the… Read more »
That’s the spirit from the man who tells us he is “neither pro nor anti-vaxx” until someone explains the maths to him, and of course constantly reminds us “the government is doing its best”.
Meanwhile, if a big bully like Emily Maitlis doesn’t like an opinion in LDS he stands his ground steadfastly, refuses to be intimidated and defends journalistic integrity along these lines…….
Yes, perhaps I was wrong to say that.
Vive la résistance!!!
Anarchism is the true answer. The politicians would rather see their opponents in power than for the people to realise that they don’t actually need any of those politicians telling them how to live their lives.
Anarchism does NOT mean chaos: it just means not having a bunch of bullies pushing us around.
Anarchy devolves into a violent system. Do you think everyone will just leave everyone else alone? There’s always someone that wants more and they won’t hesitate to resort to violence to get it.
And so life becomes nasty, brutish and short. Queue Thomas Hobbes’ Leviathan, a key work in the explanation of why the complex relationship between the State and the People is based on the surrender of individual freedoms to the State – including assumed or idealistic democratic ones.
Thus your earlier statement….
….is total nonsense, and always has been unless you want to live fearfully in a society that can at any moment tip over into violence.
And that’s what we have now. Keep wearing your mask and do as you are told.
The ultimate democracy is the market where, as Ludwig von Mises says, “Every penny casts a vote”. The ultimate democracy is people spending their own money. Anything else, including referenda, is a form of democracy by proxy, and that’s where the agency problem comes in: agents looking to their own interests instead of those they are supposed to represent.
The real solution is to have as little as possible – ultimately nothing – a matter of people spending other people’s money, and make everything about people spending their own money – the ultimate direct democracy, As Milton Friedman notes, there are three ways of spending money.
1. Spend your own money for yourself,
2. Spend your own money for someone else,
3. Spend other people’s money for someone else.
With politics, number 3, the least efficient option and the most subject to corruption, is the rule. We want to minimize the use of that option in society.
Until people are prepared to identify and call out what the issues are in the first place, they will never make any progress. I would say that one major problem is that we have a bunch of Freemasons and people who are members of secret societies ruling over us. The Bullingdon Club mob and all the rest of it. Members of secret societies have no place wielding power in a true democracy. Ditto the Eton conveyor belt and the fact the entire system is in thrall to the banksters. We have a bunch of people who are adept at lying into the camera and acting all assertive lording it over everyone but who are void of any true human soul. They’re deceitful robot shills. They are on a par with double glazing salesmen. They represent the antichrist, not God. That’s a big problem. The antichrist is a system – the system we’ve got. I don’t say this as an anti-semite, so please don’t start attacking me for voicing genuine concerns. I stand shoulder to shoulder with the people of Israel, we have some major overlapping problems which have been exposed during this insidious covid agenda as the UK and Israel… Read more »
Brilliantly put. Thank you.
Agreed. How come the Israelis can do to the Palestinians what the Nazis did to them and no-one calls them out on it?
For that matter our government is currently doing to this country what Hitler failed to do.
See also the Harrogate Agenda (http://harrogateagenda.org.uk/).