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I’m not going to say much about this story on the Telegraph‘s front page except to say: You read it here first. I pointed out that children under the age of 15 were more likely to be struck by lightning than die of COVID-19 on May 23rd.

Remember folks. If you want tomorrow’s news today. read Lockdown Sceptics.

Nature Joins the Resistance

Professor Neil Ferguson takes the British Cabinet on a stroll on the cliffs of Dover

Nature, Britain’s leading scientific journal, has enthusiastically endorsed a campaign calling for academia to be “shut down”. More specifically, the campaign wants Stem subjects – science, technology, engineering and maths – to be “shut down”.

Crikey, I thought when I first read it. I know I had a crack at Neil Ferguson’s latest paper in Nature in yesterday’s update, but I wasn’t expecting the editor to react by calling for the closure of Imperial College, along with every other British university. The paper wasn’t that bad. Couldn’t Nature just retract it and move on?

Turns out, it was just a way for the editor to signal his support for the Black Lives Matter movement which, among other things, wants to “dismantle capitalism”. Phew. For a second there I thought Nature had abandoned its commitment to the pursuit of truth and joined the radical Left.

How Does Imperial’s New Paper Account for Sweden’s Low Death Toll?

Readers will recall the above graph showing the number of deaths from coronavirus that Imperial College’s model originally predicted would occur in Sweden if the authorities did nothing or stuck with the mitigation strategy. As we know, the Swedish Government did stick with its original strategy – unlike our own cowardly-custards – and the number of people who actually died fell somewhere short of Imperial’s apocalyptic prediction.

Which begs the question, how did does Imperial College’s new analysis – the one unveiled in Nature on June 8th – account for the fact that Sweden’s rise and fall in infections and deaths has largely mirrored that of the other 10 countries studied in the paper in spite of the fact that they all imposed full lockdowns and Sweden didn’t?

Imperial’s latest paper is closely based on an earlier one – Imperial College COVID-19 Response Team – Report 13 – which models the course of the pandemic in the same 11 countries as the new paper, including Sweden. In that paper, published on March 30th, Sweden’s infection rate, or Rt, is estimated to be around 2.6 after accounting for the various non-pharmaceutical interventions (NPIs) made by the authorities, including encouraging infected people to self-isolate on March 10th, banning public events of over 500 people on March 12th, encouraging people to remain a metre or so apart on March 16th, and the closure of schools for those aged 15 and over on March 18th.

Figure 2 from Imperial’s Report 13 showing the model’s estimates of infections, deaths and Rt in Sweden

The implication of this is that deaths in Sweden would continue to rise strongly – with each infected person infecting an average of 2.6 people, and so on – until most of the population was infected and tens of thousands of people would die. As we now know, that didn’t happen. After mid-April, Swedish COVID-19 deaths ceased to increase, which suggests its Rt had fallen to below 1 about three weeks earlier. Indeed, if you adjust for the lower number of daily deaths in Sweden than in the UK, the trajectory of the pandemic in both countries is remarkably similar.

So how do the boffins on Imperial’s modelling team explain this? What happened in Sweden between the end of March – when the Rt was ~2.6 – and mid-April, when the Rt clearly fell to <1? The answer is buried in a table in the paper entitled “Extended Data Fig. 4” which shows the different NPIs introduced in the 11 countries, as well as when they were introduced.

This above table shows “Public events banned” in Sweden on March 29th. Contrast this with the same table in Report 13, which shows “Public events banned” in Sweden on March 12th.

What’s going on? Why has the little round flag representing Sweden in the “Public events banned” column moved from March 12th to March 29th? True, Sweden did roll out its prohibitions on large gatherings in two stages, banning gatherings of over 500 people on March 12th and over 50 on March 29th. But why make no reference to the first ban in the more recent paper? Was it that they thought it might look a bit awkward to include two little round flags in the same row? Or is something else going on, namely, that they want the second ban on March 29th to do all the work in explaining why the death toll started to decline in mid-April?

The answer is contained in the supplementary material to the June 8th paper, where you find the following estimates of Imperial’s new, revised model for Sweden.

As you can see, the various NPIs Sweden introduced between March 10th and 18th, including the ban on public events of over 500 (now airbrushed from history), had virtually no impact on the Rt number; but banning gatherings of over 50 people on March 29th had a dramatic impact – so dramatic, it was sufficient to bring the Rt number to <1, even though Sweden introduced no other restrictions.

Does that strike you as rather convenient?

Nothing wrong with our original model, guv. If Sweden hadn’t imposed more restrictions on social gatherings on March 29th, armageddon would have certainly befallen the Scandinavian kingdom, just as we predicted. But because it banned gatherings of over 50 people, the Rt immediately plummeted to <1.

Note to the thick-skulled: This isn’t an actual quote from the Imperial College press release that accompanied the publication of the June 8th paper

You can see what’s going on here, can’t you? The authors of the paper don’t want to acknowledge that their original model wildly over-estimated the number of deaths from COVID-19 that would occur in the absence of full lockdowns – 510,000 in the UK and 2.2 million in America, you’ll recall. So they’ve effectively pretended that Sweden imposed exactly the same restrictions as the other 10 countries they’re looking at, as if banning gatherings of more than 50 people is completely indistinguishable from closing restaurants, bars and high streets and imprisoning people in their homes. Needless to say, Sweden didn’t do any of that. Apart from football games being cancelled and nightclubs closed, life carried on pretty much as normal.

There’s another sleight of hand you’ll see in the tables showing what social distancing measures Sweden imposed. Both the table in Report 13 and the new paper have “School closure ordered” in Sweden on March 18th even though Sweden never closed its schools. Yes, it closed high schools, which in Sweden means schools for children aged 15 and older. But all schools for those aged 15 and under remained open. So in addition to not really banning social gatherings, Sweden didn’t really close schools either. But you wouldn’t know that from looking at Extended Data Fig.4 in Imperial’s latest paper.

Are there any lessons we can usefully draw from Imperial’s latest paper? I can think of at least two possibilities:

  • If there’s another pandemic, there’ll be no need to close bars, restaurants and high streets and place entire populations under virtual house arrest – merely banning gatherings of over 50 people will have exactly the same effect; or
  • Imperial College’s epidemiological model is no more reliable than a crystal ball.

Of course, both of the above could be true.

Government Does U-Turn; Schools Won’t Reopen Until September, If Then

Depressing news which I expect most of you have seen. At Monday’s daily briefing, Matt Hancock hinted that secondary schools may not reopen in September and yesterday Education Secretary Gavin Williamson told MPs that he doesn’t now think all primary school children can return for a few weeks before the summer holidays.

As Robert Halfon, the Chaiman of the Education Select Committee, put it:

I think we’re a strange country in which we turn a blind eye to mass demonstrations all over in every city, we campaign for pubs and cafes to open and yet we say to open schools before September is too risky.

Amen, Brother.

As a father of four school-age children as well as the co-founder of four schools, I’m pretty angry about this. The reason for this almighty cock-up is that the Government is insisting that children be taught in “protective bubbles” of no more than 15.

But who on earth are they protecting, given that the risk coronavirus poses to children is virtually zero and, according to the Royal College of Paediatricians and Child Health, there hasn’t been a single case of a child passing on the virus to an adult?

What’s particularly galling, as Halfon pointed out, is that the very same virtue-signalling politicians who are praising teenagers for pouring onto our streets in their tens of thousands to protest about racial injustice are also claiming it’s far too dangerous for them to go back to school. Yesterday, Rebecca Long-Bailey, the Shadow Education Secretary, “welcomed” this Government’s U-turn on reopening schools – forgetting, perhaps, that those who are suffering the most from the continuing closure of schools are the 700,000 disadvantaged children who aren’t doing any work at home.

I’ve written about this for today’s Telegraph. Here are the opening paragraphs:

The reaction of various organs of the state to the ongoing coronavirus crisis – Downing Street, the Department of Health, local authorities, the police, the BBC – has left me profoundly shocked.

I didn’t have a particularly high opinion of our ruling elites to begin with, but the lack of political courage, the failure to put the interests of the country above their own sectarian self-interest, the staggering incompetence of agencies like PHE, the lack of integrity of our leading scientists… it’s all a bit much. I hadn’t realised just how dysfunctional the British state is. But the absolute nadir has been the closure of our schools and the failure to reopen them.

It beggars belief that virtually all ‘non-essential’ businesses will be open again within a matter of weeks, including Alton Towers, but schools will remain closed until September – and, according to Matt Hancock, may not reopen even then. Thanks to the intransigence of the teaching unions and the Government’s ludicrously over-the-top social distancing guidance, we have blighted the lives of millions of children.

As a lockdown sceptic, I don’t think the Government should have closed schools in the first place. In Sweden, schools for those aged 5 to 15 have remained open throughout the pandemic and it has seen fewer COVID-19 deaths per capita than the UK. Sweden is often contrasted unfavourably with Norway, which has an even lower death toll, but the Norwegian Prime Minister recently appeared on television to apologise for over-reacting to the crisis and said she regretted closing schools.

Worth reading in full if you can get past the paywall. And worth reading these letters from incandescent Telegraph readers, too.

Independent Schools Won’t Reopen Either

There doesn’t seem to be much hope that independent schools will reopen either, partly because their insurers won’t allow it. Bit short-sighted, considering that more than 30 have already gone bust thanks to the crisis. Allison Pearson set out the problem in her Telegraph column today:

Private schools, which have provided full timetables and Zoom lessons for their paying customers, are desperate to open. No wonder. As many as 30 are preparing to shut altogether due to the pandemic with parents struggling to pay the fees. But the Government wants independents to stay in snail-like lockstep with state schools, presumably to spare its blushes. One head told me that they were being deliberately denied insurance to prevent private schools “proving that it is perfectly possible to open a whole school safely”.

I got an email from a reader with an interesting suggestion about how independent schools might get round this problem.

How about independent schools clubbing together to do what the hospitality industry has done?

A pressure group, HIGA, was founded during the lockdown by the litigation PR specialists Bell Yard Communications and they are working alongside Mishcon de Reya to bring a big group action against Aviva and QBE (the biggest insurers of restaurant businesses) to force them to compensate hospitality businesses for losses suffered during the coronavirus crisis.

Couldn’t independent schools do something similar?

Worth looking into.

Avoid Rocks – Could be Infectious

Amusing email from a despairing reader, although, in truth, it’s not all that funny.

If it is your want to collect COVID-19 memorabilia, this one might interest you. As an expression of manipulated mass delusion, it really is quite extraordinary. I found it in Tunbridge Wells on April 23rd. While it is apparently OK to walk on the footpaths and the grass, sitting on a park-bench or stepping on the rocks it’s anchored to puts one at risk of becoming infected.

On what possible basis, one might ask? Uninterrupted sunlight was raining down as I stood there.

I have come across a plague village on my travels, even a plague carpark and a plague public footpath. But a plague park-bench? Yes, I found a notice on one in East Marden in West Sussex claiming that COVID-19 can survive on wood for four hours, making it far too dangerous to put one’s bottom there. But infectious rocks?!? The 17th century witch-hunts had nothing on this madness.

An Englishman Writes

Henny Penny to replace dragon-slaying St George as the patron saint of England

And here’s an email I got from an English reader. I think this will resonate with many:

I am neither a scientist or a statistician, but in my view, the R-number is a concocted fiction designed for crowd control rather than public safety.

Logically, In order to accurately calculate the R-number you would need to identify every single case of COVID-19 at or just after the moment of infection. Collected over a reasonable time (maybe the two-week assumed incubation period), these data could reliably extrapolate an R-number under prevailing conditions as long as those conditions remained rigidly unchanged. Clearly nigh on impossible, and if ever achieved, of very little value in a situation with so many other variables.

Most of our (incomplete and time-lagged) information comes from people presenting to GPs and hospitals as sick or from the slowly expanding testing regime. Surely the R-number calculated from this data is historic, reflecting all the variables as they were at the times of the patients’ infection and may or may not have some limited value in the ongoing decision making processes.

But we’ve all observed the beginnings of a slavish fascination with the mythical ‘R’. People in the north are expressing concern about their safety because they’ve been told that the R-number for their region is 1.1 whereas in other regions it’s 0.9 and for some lucky bastard southerners it’s 0.7.

Now, assume that observation has also been made by a Government struggling to control a country lurching towards widespread civil unrest. Imagine the temptation to make the R number 1.3 or better yet, 1.5. It’s not difficult, it simply needs to be uttered to be “true”. The squealing media will obligingly ramp up their shrill chorus of alarm and lockdown will be automatically tightened, with peer pressure once more serving as our implacable gaoler. Because you’d have to be a Cov-idiot to risk everybody’s lives by going outside when the R is bigger than one… bigger than one, I tell you!

When this is all over, which I’m beginning to doubt, I will be suggesting that we remove the noble, dragon-slaying St George as our patron saint and replace him with Henny Penny, depicted forever gazing skyward with a grimace of hysterical paranoia transfixing her beaky face…

Round-Up

And on to the round-up of all the stories I’ve noticed, or which have been been brought to my attention, in the last 24 hours:

Small Businesses That Have Reopened

A few weeks ago, Lockdown Sceptics launched a searchable directory of open businesses across the UK. The idea is to celebrate those retail and hospitality businesses that have reopened, as well as help people find out what has opened in their area. But we need your help to build it, so we’ve created a form you can fill out to tell us about those businesses that have opened near you. Please visit the page and let us know about those brave folk who are doing their bit to get our country back on its feet.

Shameless Begging Bit

Thanks as always to those of you who made a donation in the last 24 hours to pay for the upkeep of this site. It takes me about nine hours to do on a day like this, which doesn’t leave much time for other work. If you feel like donating, however small the amount, please click here. And if you want to flag up any stories or links I should include in future updates, email me here.

And Finally…

Matt Hancock accidentally blurts out the truth at the Downing Street press briefing

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HawkAnalyst
HawkAnalyst
5 years ago

Toby,
 
Another great post today.
 
Best regards
 
Mitesh

LGDTLK
LGDTLK
5 years ago

Tonight’s bubble announcement is surely the death knell for lockdown. I find it alnost impossible to believe that sentient intelligent beings sat around a table and concocted this fatuous bubble shit believing a pliant population would swallow it. Today the science officially jumped the shark.

Nic
Nic
5 years ago
Reply to  LGDTLK

They live in a bubble and are detached from the real world they haven’t a clue about how ordinary people live and truly believe we are a idiots.
How can bojo keep s straight face when he delivers this bull sh , but he is destroying this country and must be stopped .

Bart Simpson
Bart Simpson
5 years ago
Reply to  LGDTLK

Goes to show that they absolutely have no clue and don’t have to cojones to admit that they got this wrong and tell the public that we should go back to how it was before March.

smileymiley
5 years ago
Reply to  LGDTLK

Watched for the first time in a number of weeks, Wish I hadn’t. They just don’t understand, they haven’t a clue. We are just decimating our economy, our kids future & our history. Someone please get a grip on this government. I never thought in my 63rd year that Conservative and Unionist party would do such an heinous assault on our oncegreat country. I hang my head in shame.

Jonathan Castro
Jonathan Castro
5 years ago
Reply to  smileymiley

I’ve never watched it, and I’m not starting now!

Bella Donna
5 years ago
Reply to  smileymiley

Well don’t hang your head in shame you didn’t instigate these crazy policies. The real problem is there is no one on the horizon with the leadership qualities we need to get us out of this. And that is shameful!

BobT
5 years ago
Reply to  LGDTLK

I think I can hear the conversation…..
Boris:
“Neil, I have a deal for you…You make up some more numbers to make me look good…..like I saved millions of lives …..and then I will change the rules so that you can go ahead and shag your girlfriend without getting hassle from the press.”

Bella Donna
5 years ago
Reply to  BobT

LOL yes obviously the no sleepover rules are playing havoc with their extramarital leg overs hence the relaxing of rules. Similarly the one where nannies and cleaners could get back to work which funnily enough coincided with Boris jnr arrival.

JohnB
JohnB
5 years ago
Reply to  LGDTLK

Pliant population swallow bubble shit ? Some people would pay to watch that video …

Andrew Fish
Andrew Fish
5 years ago
Reply to  LGDTLK

It’s not clear – is it a 1:n thing or an m:n thing? i.e. can dozens of single people attach themselves to the same family. If so, can they all visit at the same time?

A leaf
A leaf
5 years ago
Reply to  LGDTLK

Sadly there are millions out and about still walking at night with masks, wearing gloves and avoiding people like dog shit. So they will believe this oh man they will believe it very much.. 🙁

AidanR
AidanR
5 years ago
Reply to  A leaf

Point and laugh at them. They’ll soon re-evaluate their choices.

Lms2
Lms2
5 years ago

COVID-19: Doctors’ Bring Legal Challenge Over PPE Shortages

Relatives should be bringing a legal case against the PHE and health minister over the decision to transfer patients from hospitals to care homes, without ensuring they d have CV19.

Where is everyone today? Too depressed about the current dire state of our politicians and other supine leadership.

Lms2
Lms2
5 years ago
Reply to  Lms2

P.S.: I couldn’t bring myself to read much of the news here today. It’s just too predictable and dire.

Nic
Nic
5 years ago
Reply to  Lms2

Yes after 3 months I’m just kind of numb now nothing to look forward to possibly loose my business when I see Johnston I just feel real anger and I’m a very placid person but he induces real anxiety in me.

Lms2
Lms2
5 years ago
Reply to  Nic

I don’t feel anger. It’s more contempt.
Maybe the serious CV19 infection he had has affected him more than we or he realizes.
Or maybe he was never really suited to the job.

Barney McGrew
Barney McGrew
5 years ago
Reply to  Lms2

Or maybe it wasn’t CV19 but a ‘stress-related’ illness.

Bella Donna
5 years ago
Reply to  Lms2

Both I think.

matt
5 years ago
Reply to  Lms2

Yes

Peter Thompson
Peter Thompson
5 years ago

Having been on the ” front line ” since day 1 and not cowering in the wardrobe like Britain’s dentists I look forward to receiving my ” Corona ” medal from the hands of Boris.
 
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8396039/Coronavirus-medal-rolled-early-September.html
 
As I presume it will be too difficult to distinguish between those who deserve it and those who don’t ( mentioned in dispatches? ) in the NHS I imagine it will be like ” service medals ” given to all NHS workers from Prof Whittey down to the ward cleaner., along with all those who registered as NHS volunteers and heard nothing more.
 
Apparently it will be coming out in September presumably when the unemployment numbers will be reaching 4 million. I am really not sure what I will do with it if I get one , it really does sum up the insanity of the whole saga, probably put it on ebay.

Bella
Bella
5 years ago
Reply to  Peter Thompson

You won’t get 10p for it 🙂

DJ Dod
DJ Dod
5 years ago
Reply to  Peter Thompson

Perhaps ‘VC’ day will be a national holiday?
 
There’s nothing like a big parade to boost morale before the coming recession – I can see it now – massed ranks of nurses marching down the Mall… Carry on Matron!

matt
5 years ago
Reply to  Peter Thompson

Two thoughts.

1) dear god. Really?
2) 4 million? It not often you meet an optimist ‘round here.

Bella
Bella
5 years ago

I’ve had it now and I will declare my bona fides. I resigned from the Labour Party after the last leadership election, hopes dashed that politics might take a different direction with Corbyn. Experiment over and I didn’t want a Blair Mark 2. But I still had a tendency towards soft left politics. But when I see Long Bailey coming out against kids going back to school. Starmer on his knees on a Twitter photo politicking the right thing to do and Jeremy Corbyn urging everyone to take a fucking knee at 6 pm I now know that every fucker on both sides of the House is trying to coerce me and they can all go to hell. This is utter, utter madness. A plague on both your houses. No ALL your houses. SNP, Lib Dems and Greens included. ‘Love thy neighbour as thy self’ is all we need and I don’t have a religious bone in my body.

mark baker
mark baker
5 years ago
Reply to  Bella

I was a Corbynite as well. Resigned my Labour membership over their Lockdown support. Sickened by the things you mention.

Judith Day
5 years ago
Reply to  mark baker

I was a committed Labour supporter and local candidate until the day of the ‘Blair’!

Farinances
Farinances
5 years ago
Reply to  Bella

*standing ovation*

FrankiiB
FrankiiB
5 years ago
Reply to  Bella

I was a centrist but became horrified by all the left wing and centre Lid Dem positions.
I feel the ‘Lockdown Left’ as I call them are going to be punished harshly by the people when the tide turns. Most left/centre voters tend to be young and will be affected badly by the lockdown. Young entrepreneurs, most important to the economy, most of all. As the truth gets exposed, the lie of lockdown, and the terrible economic consequences become apparent, the left’s championing of lockdown could destroy its core vote.

paulito
paulito
5 years ago
Reply to  Bella

Same here Bella. What the left has become absolutely terrifies me. It is totally bereft of ideas and offer nothing other than identity politics bullshit, censorship and authoritarianism. I’m disgusted by all of them.

Awkward Git
Awkward Git
5 years ago
Reply to  paulito

And the new leader of the Labour party is the man who as head of the CPS refused to prosecute Jimmy Saville and the grooming gangs so he is just another part of the Establishment right down to his core.
 
From now on either spoilt ballot paper or a vote for a true independent individual or party – none of the existing parties will ever again be voted for by me.

HawkAnalyst
HawkAnalyst
5 years ago

Coronavirus: Facemask plans mired in confusion
 
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/coronavirus-facemask-plans-mired-in-confusion-wlsq7qf82
 
 
Plans for compulsory face coverings on public transport risk being thrown into disarray after operators raised serious doubts over the enforcement of the policy.
 
 
BTP, which polices the railway, said it had “no powers regarding the national rail conditions of travel, which is a contract between the train operators and the passenger”. Officers could merely “engage with passengers and encourage them to comply”, it said in a statement.
 
The Times has also spoken to rail and bus operators who said they were concerned about enforcing the policy themselves.
 
It is understood that the DfT is now considering dropping plans to enforce them through the “conditions of travel”. Instead they could be enshrined under the Public Health Act 1984 which was used to introduce fines for people who flout the lockdown rules. It would mean transport staff would not be held responsible for enforcement.
 
One industry source said that the powers may not be in place before Monday.
 

Bart Simpson
Bart Simpson
5 years ago
Reply to  HawkAnalyst

This doesn’t surprise me as I’ve pointed out in this blog over the past few days – antisocial distancing and muzzle wearing won’t work especially when reality hits – rain, signalling problems and “customer incidents”. When all of this hits, people who are running late for work or important appointments won’t take kindly to being berated for not following the 2m rule or wearing a muzzle.

arfurmo
arfurmo
5 years ago
Reply to  Bart Simpson

I’m still waiting for the “breathing difficulties” get out fine print . I won’t get away with the first one and wouldn’t even attempt the second one-but stick a muzzle on me and it isn’t pleasant-
 
Some passengers will be exempt from the new rules:

  • Young children
  • Disabled people
  • Those with breathing difficulties

 

Bart Simpson
Bart Simpson
5 years ago
Reply to  arfurmo

Don’t forget:

  • asthma
  • agoraphobia or some other kind of phobia
  • anxiety/ies

 
Why not try saying you get headaches and dizzy spells from wearing one? Which is a legitimate point as you’re not getting oxygen into your brain when being muzzled up.

matt
5 years ago
Reply to  Bart Simpson

With a bit of luck, I’m off to meet an actual friend (as opposed to someone I happen to know, who lives nearby) next week. It’s nearly 7 miles away, so walking there and back isn’t realistic and I intend to have a beer, so nor is driving.

I will be brandishing an inhaler. I don’t really need it, but nonetheless.

Annie
Annie
5 years ago
Reply to  arfurmo
  • And those who breathe, either through their mouths or through their noses.
Carrie
Carrie
5 years ago
Reply to  HawkAnalyst

Seen the new stations posters re mask-wearing? The old ones did say ‘please’ wear a mask – there is no ‘please’ on the new ones.. See Peter Hitchens’ Twitter account for pictures..

Farinances
Farinances
5 years ago
Reply to  HawkAnalyst

yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaas

Julian
Julian
5 years ago
Reply to  HawkAnalyst

I would also like to see how they reword the relevant sections of the law to cover this bubble nonsense. I like to think I am quick on the uptake but it had me baffled.

swedenborg
swedenborg
5 years ago

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/big-pharma-criminal-influence-research-exposed-secret-recording-lancet-and-nejm-editors
 
Perhaps a further explanation that Richard Horton Chief Editor Lancet has “changed” side? A video leaked, where both editors of Lancet and New Eng J Med admitted that Big Pharma controlled them.
Big Pharma just don’t control only them, they control the whole handling of this pandemic from the beginning. And most ironically, the biggest cheerleaders have been the supposedly left wingers, but might that change now?

paulito
paulito
5 years ago
Reply to  swedenborg

One of many post on this subject from Dr Kendrick’s blog. “science has taken a turn towards darkness” Richard Horton.
https://drmalcolmkendrick.org/2015/06/18/conflict-of-interest-not-just-about-money/

FrankiiB
5 years ago

Excellent piece on schools, thank you.
If the government really can’t organise full time schooling for all students then they should give parents a tax credit for us to buy our own or top up with private tuition and private education. Just giving up on our children’s schooling is not good enough.

AllieT
AllieT
5 years ago

Thanks for this daily dose of sanity!

Ianric
Ianric
5 years ago

This is another question I would like to ask anyone with medical and scientific expertise. When implementing a draconian lockdown and so much media hysteria created over coronavirus, the impression is given that coronavirus is a highly infectious disease which justifies drastic measures. I am curious as to how infectious coronavirus is and the factors which affect how infectious coronavirus is. We are told coronavirus is spread when a person coughs or sneezes and the droplets enters another person’s mouth, nose or eyes. If droplets land on a surface and someone touches a surface and then touches their face they can become infected. I have some questions * If someone coughs or sneezes, how close would someone have to be for the droplets to be dangerous. * Can droplets still be dangerous outdoors . * If someone sneezes indoors, can factors such as temperature and ventilation affect how dangerous the droplets are. * How long would you have to exposed to droplets to be dangerous. * If someone touches a contaminated surface, would their hands have a dangerous level of virus even if they only touched a surface very briefly. * If someone touches a contaminated surface, how long would… Read more »

Rosemary Patterson
Rosemary Patterson
5 years ago
Reply to  Ianric

The droplets would only be dangerous if you had a weakened immune system which for some reason couldn’t fight off the virus – but wash your hands and avoid touching your face and you’ll be fine

Riffman
Riffman
5 years ago
Reply to  Ianric

Perhaps if you didn’t use the word ‘dangerous ‘ five times in your post you might get a better response. Covid is only a ‘risk’ to ….etc.etc. 😴

djaustin
djaustin
5 years ago
Reply to  Ianric

It’s about as contagious as influenza and rhinovirus (cold). Nursing homes show that indoors it’s very easy to transmit. Outside, much harder. It persists on surfaces for longer than these two viruses according to a NEJM paper. Yes you can contaminate your hands sufficiently to infect yourself, but washing your hands is very effective (with any soap).
 
Paper here https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2004973
 
If this virus had been as pathogenic as SARS-COV-1 and as transmissible as it is, then I would not be typing this, and nobody would be arguing that the lockdown was not a good idea.

Annie
Annie
5 years ago
Reply to  djaustin

Bear in mind that nursing homes doo not contain a representative sample if the population.
(Not to mention that they are always as stuffy as a broom cupboard and as not as Hades.)

Rob Tyson
5 years ago

So, question for you fellow sceptics…
 
I make a point of arguing the toss with several different people on Twitter every day. I do this deliberately to spread the word about the insanity of ‘lockdown’ and the C19 response generally.
 
I realise that I will probably never win over the original poster as the very act of arguing with them tends to make them more entrenched (known as the ‘backfire effect’).
 
The idea is more to appeal to the ‘watchers’, to let them know there is an alternative view and maybe win THEM over to a greater or less extent.
 
Are my efforts best spent:
a) trying to win over ‘floating voters’, e.g. Daily Mail, that kind of audience where it’s 50/50?
b) going into ‘The Lion’s Mouth’ and taking on people following e.g. The Guardian, Channel 4 news, Labour MPs, sowing a bit of doubt and blunt their certainty?

Julian
Julian
5 years ago
Reply to  Rob Tyson

Ah well that’s a good question. Goodness only knows – it’s hard to fathom what goes through people’s heads.   You’d imagine the floaters would be easier to bring round, as you have a few more “ins” in terms of the economic reality possibly. On the other hand, there may be some on the other side who are more open to arguments regarding the morality of saving lives at all costs and the doubtless disparate impact on the poor.   Go with your gut, pick the fights that interest you. Try to have some fun with it – God knows we need a bit of fun at present.   I tend to try and keep it very neutral and get people to explain what THEIR exit strategy is, how long they think we can carry on with the new normal and what they think the long term impact might be, and back it up with some stats from well-known sources such as the CDC about the true IFR, point out other reputable scientific bodies have differing views, and point out the lack of correlation between “lockdown” severity and outcomes, across the world, and the lack of any sign of a… Read more »

Tom Blackburn
5 years ago
Reply to  Julian

Instead of aiming for full conversion, try asking what it would take for someone to reconsider their position on a certain point.

Julian
Julian
5 years ago
Reply to  Tom Blackburn

Good idea, thanks

Carrie
Carrie
5 years ago
Reply to  Rob Tyson

Maybe post links to Francis Hoar’s or Simon Dolan’s Twitter pages, or to a suitable post that appears in one of their accounts? Or a page from Hector Drummond’s website where there are loads of official ONS statistics? Or the swprs website https://swprs.org/a-swiss-doctor-on-covid-19/

djaustin
djaustin
5 years ago
Reply to  Rob Tyson

Well I’m here, and I’m not a skeptic (or a zealot for that matter). As a scientist I have to be skeptical of both the science and the counter position. Anyone who is certain of anything about a pathogen with which we have about six months human experience, is likely to be wrong. How wrong? – we will see. If you have made up your mind then how will you recognise if you are wrong (Richard Feynmann). There is enough variability in the data within and across countries to start to draw conclusions.
 
But in essence, the UK situation is coming down to a failure to protect those in nursing homes due to a lack of testing and suitable quarantine of patients when admitted from and discharged back to nursing homes. Plus community transmission in densely populated areas like London, which responded to contact reduction.
 
Nobody wins on the internet 🙂

OKUK
OKUK
5 years ago
Reply to  djaustin

Hang on…you were a “modeller” yesterday and today you’re a “scientist”. Congrats. That’s a step up I would say. Tomorrow you may be a “Nobel Prize Winner”.

djaustin
djaustin
5 years ago
Reply to  OKUK

I believe I said I model for a living, that’s part of science I do 😉 . I won’t be winning any Nobel prizes, although my PhD supervisor was denied one unjustly in my opinion (and many others).

OKUK
OKUK
5 years ago
Reply to  djaustin

I don’t know. You could win a Nobel Prize for BSing here. In particular not admitting that early lockdown Belgium has the worst Covid death rate in the world after you claimed early lockdown would have saved huge numbers of lives in the UK.

guy153
5 years ago
Reply to  djaustin

You are right to be skeptical of everything including skepticism itself, and that there is always plenty of uncertainty. But I can’t see that lockdown in the UK is a solution to anything for a generous range of plausible values of all these uncertain variables (the key ones being the IFR for each age band and where we are in the life-cycle of the epidemic).
 
There might have been a case for a three-week lockdown at the peak to slow things down a bit, make life easier for the NHS, and to sneak up on the herd immunity threshold without overshooting it. But that’s it. Otherwise what’s the plan? Wait for a vaccine? Make TTT work?
 
I don’t think there is going to be a second wave in the UK. But I could be wrong about that and I think it’s an interesting thing to discuss. But am I considerably more certain that a second lockdown would be a terrible idea.

djaustin
djaustin
5 years ago
Reply to  guy153

On that I don’t disagree at all. It’s a once only intervention. I don’t think there will be a second wave because I think Sweden have helpfully shown what endemic state looks like (to the consternation of many).

I’m not hopeful for a vaccine, but there will be treatments and better management of infections which will help provide prophylactic protection for those most at risk.

It could be a bumpy 12 months.

guy153
5 years ago
Reply to  djaustin

I am a bit concerned about the vaccines being rushed through as similar vaccines (especially to the two leading Chinese ones) for similar viruses (SARS1 and MERS) have a history of “enhancement”– making the disease worse. There’s a risk of a competition between the autocratic regimes of China and the UK to tear up safety procedures as quickly as possible and win the race to sell billions of doses.   Antibody treatments look the most promising, and they will also help to validate the vaccines– if they do show any enhancement it’s time to take a step back on the vaccines.   Not sure if HCQ and Remdesivir will do much although I would be interested to see what you could achieve with Remdesivir as an inhaler.   People have already figured out better ways to treat people, in particular to go easy on the intubation and try blood thinners in the cases where blood clotting is more the problem than traditional pneumonia.   I am wondering if COVID-19 has significantly higher fatality in the elderly and vulnerable compared to flu but quite a bit lower fatality in everybody else (compared to most flus). Early observations of severe disease in… Read more »

djaustin
djaustin
5 years ago
Reply to  guy153

Remdsivir will look like tamiflu. Useful in mild/moderate infections when used early to bring more rapid resolution. Anti-IL6 has shown results in the most severe infections and other cytlokine blockers may also help (GMCSF). Hydroxychloroquine as monotherapy is not at all efficacious. It may be that treating early with O2 to prevent hypoxia may lead to better resolution. Hence the infection hospitals and Nightingale could serve a purpose beyond mechanical ventilation of the most sick.
 
Your observation on fatality is very reasonable and fits with my own feeling. And no, it was not obvious at the start. People are vary keen to use hindsight, but don’t recall the young healthy Chinese doctor treating COVID patients who then died.

Barney McGrew
Barney McGrew
5 years ago
Reply to  djaustin

“Anyone who is certain of anything about a pathogen with which we have about six months human experience, is likely to be wrong. How wrong? – we will see.”
 
I don’t think we will see. What I am taking away from this fiasco is that we don’t even know very much about pathogens that have always been with us. We don’t even understand influenza it seems (antibody studies don’t match the suggested ‘R0’ values for those viruses, even though there’s no lockdown or social distancing).
 
Epidemiology is pseudoscience as described by Karl Popper. It can create a superficially plausible (wrong) explanation for everything retrospectively, but it has no predictive power.

djaustin
djaustin
5 years ago
Reply to  Barney McGrew

I’m a great believer in classic epidemiology, contact tracing, seroprevalence, fundamental genetic studies with PCR. Whilst I enjoy modelling, during the early phase of an exponential epidemic, very little can be estimated beyond growth rate. I don’t put much say in R – useful to explain concepts, but not really a policy tool. The epidemic is shrining at about 3-5% per day. That’s a policy tool. R = 0.7 to 0.9 is not.

Barney McGrew
Barney McGrew
5 years ago
Reply to  djaustin

“I’m a great believer in classic epidemiology”
 
I can tell. Here’s a question: if immunity is not binary, but a person can be resistant, or partially immune, or can build up resistance over time due to exposure of low doses of a virus or similar viruses, what does the ‘R’ number mean? If a person with Covid breathes on another person and they fight off the infection without developing antibodies, were they ‘infected’ or not?
 
To me the whole idea of ‘classic epidemiology’ is about as useful as ‘classic phrenology’. Epidemiology always seems to get it wrong, I suspect because it cannot get past the idea of the SIR model. Without SIR (and its variants), there is no ‘R0’, or ‘Rt’, so epidemiology cannot move on. If it had to admit that R0 was a nonsense it would be laughed at even more than it currently is.

guy153
5 years ago
Reply to  Barney McGrew

R0 and R are just averages. If some of your population has partial immunity already, or some of them catch the disease but are less infectious, then it averages out– basically it just makes R a bit smaller than it would have been.

R0 and R(t) are perfectly meaningful terms (they’re just how many other people each person infects on average at the start and at some other time respectively). This epidemic has followed the curves predicted by SIR and similar models very well.

The difficulty with R0 and R comes with trying to actually estimate what they are at a particular time in a particular place.

Ferguson’s controversial model was completely different. He was trying to model the effect of individual interventions using a mixture of uncertain assumptions, assumptions that were actually far from their known values, and lousy code. That isn’t “classic epidemiology” but just what you get when a few students learn how to code badly and are given a computer to play around with.

Barney McGrew
Barney McGrew
5 years ago
Reply to  guy153

Nobody seems capable of thinking it through. R0 has become ‘iconic’ but it is purely an artefact of a particular ‘classic’ i.e. over-simplistic model. If the immune system doesn’t work as the model suggests, the model can never predict anything.   For a start, R0 isn’t supposed to change throughout the ‘classic’ epidemic. If the population changes its behaviour half way through the epidemic, then ‘R0’ no longer means anything because it is supposed to represent the virus’s potential to infect the uninfected population. Not only has the population’s behaviour changed, but a proportion of it has already been infected.   Next, the population’s susceptibility changes as time goes on, not just the proportion of uninfected. We can find this out if we talk to immunologists who know about this T-cell stuff etc., and they can tell you how a low exposure can act as a vaccine, etc. R0 means nothing if the population’s resistance changes dynamically with exposure.   We can delude ourselves that we are calculating a dynamic ‘R’, but not if we can’t even define ‘infection’. If a positive PCR doesn’t correspond to subsequent antibody results, then whether a person is ‘infected’ is anybody’s guess, and it… Read more »

djaustin
djaustin
5 years ago
Reply to  Barney McGrew

Classic epidemiology engages in well-controlled observations such as case controlled trials. For example, follow 100 heathcare workers and 100 matched controls, and see who will catch the infection (you are about 8x more likely if the former). Description of these phenomenon by models are helpful – when they disagree it can inform on the error of assumptions. For example if the model assumes all cases and deaths are in the community, but fails to capture heterogeneity in nursing homes, it will not predict the wider population. It might still describe case numbers.
 
The concepts are all sound. Their application and interpretation
 
Phrenology?
 

Farinances
Farinances
5 years ago
Reply to  Rob Tyson

50/50, certainly. Simply because they’re less certain.
 
Good on you, I can’t be bothered. I find it too exhausting screaming into a virtual brick wall.
 
I will however, argue til I’m blue in the face with someone in person. That to me is always more effective.

Mark Hunter
Mark Hunter
5 years ago
Reply to  Farinances

I find the most effective route is to over-agree with their position and then double down.

They say: “Wear a mask!”

I say: “Yes! I even wear one indoors and I won’t be leaving my house for at least another 6 months or until it’s safe. And neither will my children, whom I haven’t hugged in 3 months.”

Awkward Git
Awkward Git
5 years ago
Reply to  Rob Tyson

I just quote facts, figures, dates, actual events and so on. When they ask where I got all the information I say “official Government websites like the ONS, daily briefings, euromomo etc”.   Really stumps them that the facts do not tally up with the pronouncements.   They either go into cognitive dissonance or ask “why are they lying to us?” or “tell me more where I can find out for myself?”.   You cannot change a person’s mind for them so no amount of arguing will work, they have to change their mind themselves and that only works if you can give enough information to them to start them down the road of discovery for themselves.   Keep chipping way one person at a time. I’ve noticed that when talking to someone others earwigs in the background and listens in even if they do not join in. Normally it is another unbeliever who will join the conversation and back you up which helps.   My son has actually realised this works – he was posting some of my stuff on his Facebook page, he would get slagged off, he would post some facts and the other person would either… Read more »

guy153
5 years ago
Reply to  Rob Tyson

The best thing is to start with some common ground– something everyone can agree on. The statement that Boris Johnson is an idiot is good one. Practically a tautology I know but it still gets a sympathetic response. Once you’re on their side you just need to pick a good time to mention how many people under 60 with no pre-existing conditions have died in the UK out of millions of infections (it’s fewer than 300).

HawkAnalyst
HawkAnalyst
5 years ago

Scrap social distancing in schools to save our children’s education
 
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/10/scrap-social-distancing-schools-save-childrens-education/
 
Johnson’s luck has temporarily run out. The scientists gave him the wrong advice at the start, the bureaucracy let the country down appallingly, he and his top team caught the virus and he is now making his own, unforced errors, as he struggles to push through the unlocking of Britain. Even his staunchest supporters are baffled: what is going on? Tory MPs are panicking, and for once have a point. Why is our crisis dragging on so much longer than that in France, Italy, Spain or Germany? Can we have the old Boris back please, and some of his buccaneering, can-do spirit?
 
Yet all is far from lost, and it would be an act of extreme stupidity for the Tories to turn on Johnson now. The OECD forecast that the UK will suffer worse economically than its rivals is the product of a typically useless technocratic spreadsheet, ready to be refuted by reality. Britain’s daily deaths and infections continue to slide, and the economy is reopening. But if he is to capitalise on this, Johnson needs to start gambling again. Nowhere is this more true than with schools.

Back To Normal
Back To Normal
5 years ago
Reply to  HawkAnalyst

Scrap social distancing everywhere – to save our country!

Julian
Julian
5 years ago
Reply to  HawkAnalyst

Johnson’s luck has temporarily run out.” In so far as he had to deal with a really serious challenge, and screwed it up big-time, yes it has.
 
Yet all is far from lost,” For now, all is lost. We need to repeal the Coronavirus Act, end lockdown, admit the whole thing was a huge mistake, and completely abandon the “new normal”. Don’t see much sign of that, at present.
 
” and it would be an act of extreme stupidity for the Tories to turn on Johnson now.” Well, it’s hard to know who’d be much better, but his blunder is so monumental that he needs to go as soon as possible, and never be allowed anywhere near high office, ever again.
 

Mark
5 years ago
Reply to  HawkAnalyst

Johnson’s luck has temporarily run out. The scientists gave him the wrong advice at the start,”
 
This is not a matter of luck, the decision to enact lockdown was an unforced error on Johnson’s part reflecting poor judgement and weak character. He chose to take advice from a far too restricted pool of scientists and he chose not to properly consider the costs of lockdown, and he allowed himself panic and fail to maintain self-discipline in the face of scaremongering (probably) from Cummings about bad NHS publicity.

Tyneside Tigress
Tyneside Tigress
5 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Agree completely. I like Allister Heath but I think he more than pulled his punches in the article. Johnson admitted in front of the scrutiny committee a couple of weeks ago that he only looked at a ‘summary’ of the SAGE meetings. Gobsmacking. You are PM in charge of locking the country down and all you consider is a ‘summary’. Further, nobody in their right mind in a senior position in industry would rely on a modelled ‘guestimate’ from a supposed scientist who has systematically overestimated outcomes of an order of double digit magnitude. Who on earth is responsible for deciding who is on the SAGE committee – is it the Cabinet Secretary or Mr Cummings? They all need to go now, before they do any more damage.

paulito
paulito
5 years ago
Reply to  HawkAnalyst

I wouldn’t put much in store in Spain’s example. Yes, they have eased restrictions but are still firmly on the path to social and economic ruin.

paulito
paulito
5 years ago
Reply to  paulito

“put much store by Sapin’s example”

Will Jones
5 years ago

Great analysis of the Imperial failures on Sweden. What about all the other countries though? They predicted the UK would have max 20,000 deaths given the lockdown we implemented – it’s more like 40,000. And where is the steep drop off in infections they predicted in countries which locked down? Where is it in Italy, Spain, Belgium, France, here? Where are any of their predictions validated? Where are the signals in the death data for any of their measures at all? Why is no one making them prove their recommendations actually work?

Nic
Nic
5 years ago
Reply to  Will Jones

I can remember italy and spain locked down hard but deaths and infections continued to climb for weeks afterwards yet people were strictly imprisoned in their homes strange if lockdowns are supposed to work so well.
N

Will Jones
5 years ago
Reply to  Nic

Exactly. But for some reason no one is asking them these fundamental questions.

djaustin
djaustin
5 years ago
Reply to  Nic

Rate of decline in Spain has been markedly faster than other countries. Italy has also declined faster than the U.K. and Sweden has barely declined at all. Lockdown has the effect on the way down too but this effect is often overlooked by the vast majority. People are looking for a switch off then on but the effect is blunted by the dynamics of the process.

There is no evidence of herd immunity leading to a lack of supply of new people to infect. There is debate about whether people may have some natural immunity to restrict infections and how many can be infected. But we know that about 6% of the U.K. population have had it, and at least 25% could catch it based on closed population studies.

OKUK
OKUK
5 years ago
Reply to  djaustin

You’re such a BSer. Italy’s outbreak was highly regionalised, highly concentrated in the north. Anyone interested in this sort of analysis wouldn’t make sweeping generalisations about “Italy” and “Spain”.
 
“we know that about 6% of the U.K. population have had it”
 
“Had it” is a very scientific term for a “scientist” like you djaustin. How do you define “had it”?
 
And where do you get the BS 6% figure from?

Barney McGrew
Barney McGrew
5 years ago
Reply to  OKUK

“Trust the data…”
 
If you start looking behind the neat table of figures, who knows what you’ll find. And then you’ll have to somehow incorporate the distortions into your statistical analysis which is impossible.
 
No, it’s best to simply plot the graphs and then start speculating about those as though you know nothing else about the situation.

Barney McGrew
Barney McGrew
5 years ago
Reply to  Barney McGrew

(I’m talking about someone else, not you, OKUK!)

Will Jones
5 years ago
Reply to  djaustin

How do you figure that? Looking at the graphs, Spain took 8 weeks to decline steadily from peak to near zero – there’s certainly no sharp drop-off such as an effective lockdown would create. Italy looks very similar to Spain – about 8 weeks steady decline from peak with no sharp drop-off. UK peaked slightly later but the shape is basically the same and 8 weeks later is back to near zero. Sweden peaked later than UK but looks basically the same as the others and is on the same trajectory. The claim doesn’t stand up to a preliminary look at the graphs so unless you have a proper research paper to point to that claims to demonstrate otherwise I suggest you stop making these false claims.

Carrie
Carrie
5 years ago
Reply to  Will Jones

Except that it is not really 40,000 deaths here – once you take away co-morbidities and look only at deaths from Covid 19, where the patient had none of the known risk factors or other pre-existing illness, the number of deaths is only around 1350..

Will Jones
5 years ago
Reply to  Carrie

Sure, but they meant deaths as per the way we were counting. The point is their predictions were totally wrong, as usual.

djaustin
djaustin
5 years ago
Reply to  Carrie

Did the other 61,000 people slip in the bath? Odd they seemed to remain upright in Norway, no? One could argue that being old is a comorbidity – but then at the extremis, so is being alive. What is noticeable is that about 30,000 more 85+ yo have died so far this year than at the same point in any year since records began. It doesn’t really matter how you count the bodies, we’ve lost a town the size of Paignton.

OKUK
OKUK
5 years ago
Reply to  djaustin

I’m not at all surprised. The only thing that keeps most 85 year olds going is the loving support of close family. Maybe you have no relatives of that age and are unaware of that. You do seem quite ignorant about a lot of “data”. Isolated from their families, a lot of 85 year olds will do what they were going to do soon and…die

djaustin
djaustin
5 years ago
Reply to  OKUK

Average life expectancy in a nursing home last year was about four years, This year it is closer to three and a half.

OKUK
OKUK
5 years ago
Reply to  djaustin

So what? Your claim was that early lockdown saves lives. But early lockdown Belgium has the worst Covid-19 death rate in the world. Why can’t you admit that simple fact? Or do you deny it is a fact?

Farinances
Farinances
5 years ago
Reply to  djaustin

Are you seriously trying to argue that six months of life, even thousands of times, is worth trashing the entire world economy for?!?
 
If not, please stop arguing with people about this nitpicky bullshit.

Barney McGrew
Barney McGrew
5 years ago
Reply to  Farinances

And that’s six months of life in a nursing home. What’s that worth?
 
No, everything to do with deaths in extreme old age is nonlinear. Tipping people over the edge who were due to go anyway is not the same as a proper ‘death’. Attempting to extrapolate wider conclusions from such “data” is a mistake.

Nobody2021
5 years ago
Reply to  Carrie

I linked to an article in DM on yesterday’s thread that included an interactive tool to show deaths in England and Wales by location. I’ve included a screenshot. Note how low the “COVID 19 not mentioned” deaths are relative to the 5 year average in Hospitals. Note also how excess deaths in care homes were already fairly high for non COVID deaths until a sudden jump in COVID deaths.
 
To me it’s highly suggestive that lockdowns increased excess deaths outside of hospitals and then caused people in hospitals and care homes to get infected and die.

Covid deaths.png
swedenborg
swedenborg
5 years ago

https://twitter.com/d_spiegel/status/1270673435874791425/photo/1
 
This is an important Covid-19 risk calculation from David Spiegelhalter
But most important is the explanation for his
“Average Covid risk has been around 50% extra than normal risk for over 45s,much less for under 45s”
The important comment on this
“Isn’t it rather important to note that this is not the extra risk if you get COVID, it is the combined risk of getting it and then dying. The risk is only low (“just” 50% more than normal) because only 6.8% of us got the disease (ONS estimate).”
Spiegelhalters twitter reply confirms this “You are right, it said risks to the population but could have been clearer. Tricky to give all caveats in 280 characters, but should have put them in image”
 
So with this little warning on the phrase below on the table,a remarkable view of the actual risk of Covid-19

djaustin
djaustin
5 years ago
Reply to  swedenborg

The point is to extrapolate that increase in risk to a higher prevalence, should more people in that age group become infected. That has yet to happen – it is moot as to whether it will do so. I’ve been doing the same calculations – in fact I posted a plot of these risk a week ago. The risk rises to 200% more for the 85+, but is now heading back to baseline.

OKUK
OKUK
5 years ago
Reply to  djaustin

djaustin – You can moot all you like – you are sounding like a BSer because you refuse to address salient points. Please explain, as you have consistently refused to up till now, why Belgium has such an appallingly high death rate from Covid-19….despite an early lockdown.

Farinances
Farinances
5 years ago
Reply to  swedenborg

I had to explain this to someone today – I would recommend it, because his face was a picture of relief. Personally I can’t believe some people are looking at these risk rates, even with that assumption, and being scared of them!
 
Maybe I should get a motorbike, clearly I think I’m indestructible.

Bart Simpson
Bart Simpson
5 years ago

Longtime readers on this site might remember that I did a take on Emile Zola’s J’Accuse a few weeks’ back.   I’ve updated it a bit to include something of what has happened over the past few day:   I accuse the Prime Minister Boris Johnson of cowardice and for caving in to the hysterical ramblings of the media and the flawed advice of the scientists. For not showing true leadership to lead us out of this crisis.   I accuse the mainstream media both print and television for the barrage of apocalyptic headiness and scare stories that have cowed the populace into submission and pushed us in to this disastrous situation that we are now in.   I accuse Neil Ferguson for his flawed model which has caused misery and untold damage to this country. Not only once but twice, even thrice.   I accuse our elected and unelected representatives also of cowardice like the Prime Minister for allowing our civil liberties to be restricted all in the name of health.   I accuse the police, local government and judiciary for their abuse of power and trampling on the rights of innocent people who are unable to fight back… Read more »

matt
5 years ago
Reply to  Bart Simpson

Bart, that’s brilliant.

But it hasn’t cheered me up at all.

Tyneside Tigress
Tyneside Tigress
5 years ago
Reply to  matt

Matt, I hope you are ok. We can all take comfort from each other on here. Did you message your friend who knows the Cabinet minister?

matt
5 years ago

I did that yesterday. Yesterday I felt like there was some kind of way out and things were moving. Today doesn’t feel that way. I have dependents (which makes it worse, but I have responsibilities). If I didn’t, I think I’d just swallow a bottle of paracetamol and then drink beer till I didn’t wake up.

Tyneside Tigress
Tyneside Tigress
5 years ago
Reply to  matt

Please stay strong, things are moving – the mood in the media has changed and Johnson is starting to panic. Can you talk to your partner or does she not share the same views on lockdown. Can you see one of your mates?

JohnB
JohnB
5 years ago
Reply to  matt

Nah, leave out the pills. Then you can drink beer again tomorrow ! 🙂

Bart Simpson
Bart Simpson
5 years ago
Reply to  matt

I hope you are OK. LIke you there are days I feel like this isn’t going to end but we have this wonderful site and it does feel like the tide is turning.

HawkAnalyst
HawkAnalyst
5 years ago

Telegraph cartoon 11 June 2020
 comment image?imwidth=450

Back To Normal
Back To Normal
5 years ago

I’ve just made a complaint to npower over the use of the term “new normal” in an email they sent me today. I find this phrase offensive.
I suggest that all sceptics start complaining to companies that promote any of this rubbish – “keeping you safe” etc.

Kath Andrews
Kath Andrews
5 years ago
Reply to  Back To Normal

In terms of these horrid new phrases that have been used throughout this, it is ‘new normal’ that scares me the most.

Julian
Julian
5 years ago
Reply to  Kath Andrews

I am trying to drop it into conversation with colleagues and acquaintances, making it clear I think it’s revolting, and quickly move on (unless they seem to want to pick up the point). I think it’s it’s important people regularly hear others around them questioning it and suggesting there is a CHOICE. We can do behavioural insights, too…

skipper
skipper
5 years ago
Reply to  Back To Normal

I’d like if they called it “The Abnormal”, at least then it would give us some hope of returning to normality.

free radical
free radical
5 years ago
Reply to  skipper

That’s how I only ever refer to it. Also “anti-social distancing”, “coronaflu”, “covid 1984” etc.

HawkAnalyst
HawkAnalyst
5 years ago

Coronavirus: 700,000 children ‘doing no school work’   https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/coronavirus-700-000-children-doing-no-school-work-qprsc9z23   The response in Europe France All nursery, primary and lower-secondary schools have reopened. Lycées, or sixth-form schools, are reopening this month but not in the Paris region. Jean-Michel Blanquer, the education minister, and scientific advisers want restrictions in schools to be eased because children do not spread the virus as much as first thought. Germany The country is a patchwork of regional rules but most pupils are back in classes at least once a week. The northern state of Schleswig-Holstein has suspended its minimum-distance requirement so that all primary pupils can come back. All states aim to resume face-to-face teaching for every age group before the holidays. Portugal Secondary school students in their final two years and pre-school toddlers were allowed back on May 18. Sweden All schools for under-16s stayed open but universities and the equivalent of sixth-form colleges switched to online teaching in March. Officials recommended spacing out desks and staggering schedules to avoid pupils congregating in large numbers. Denmark The first European country to reopen its primary schools in April after a lockdown. Its R number increased in the following fortnight but remained below 1. Children were… Read more »

Bella
Bella
5 years ago
Reply to  HawkAnalyst

Interesting about Belgium since their deaths per million are way higher than ours.Dear me, we are so weak and pathetic

Ambwozere
Ambwozere
5 years ago

The whole issue around schools reopening or not is so strange. I work in an FE (further education) college and had to attend an all day meeting actually on the College campus. It was so exciting I saw real live human beings and sat in a room with them for 6 whole hours. We had to meet to discuss how the College will run in terms of teaching delivery next year. And as one of the timetablers it is somewhat vital I have some idea of what the curriculum are looking to achieve. So from what I gathered it will be a mix of online learning and some fave to face teaching on college sites. To comply with anti social distancing there will be a limit to how many students can be in a room. Plus if a different set of students goes into the room it has to be cleaned in between sets of students. A whole raft of issues from allowing students to eat food in classrooms, social spaces to be patrolled for 2m rule compliance, online enrolment (If they ever get the app built and working!), plus issues around rooms with air conditioning which have no windows… Read more »

DoubtingDave
5 years ago
Reply to  Ambwozere

@Ambwozere Open from September, but still following social distancing?

Ambwozere
Ambwozere
5 years ago
Reply to  DoubtingDave

Yes sadly, we’ve got lovely round markers on the corridors for the one way system 🤦‍♀️

Farinances
Farinances
5 years ago
Reply to  Ambwozere

I really, really hope our educational management/admin have some bollocks and fire the bedwetters who refuse to go back to work.

Threepartslogan
Threepartslogan
5 years ago

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/articles/analysisofdeathregistrationsnotinvolvingcoronaviruscovid19englandandwales28december2019to1may2020/technicalannex – released on 5 June.
 
In particular, Section 7: Possible explanations for non-COVID-19 excess deaths.
Figures 14&15 – These bar charts are shocking!! I don’t recall seeing anything about this reported on the MSM!!

HawkAnalyst
HawkAnalyst
5 years ago

Little Britain: where the two-metre rule came from and why it is not actually a rule at all
 
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/little-britain-two-metre-rule-came-not-actually-rule/
 
Government’s official website: “Keep your distance if you go out – 2 metres apart where possible”.
And here it it is laid out by the Department for Business in its official Covid “guidance” for employers and employees: “Maintain two-metre social distancing, where possible. 
 
The fact that the two-metre rule is not a rule and only a bit of (sensible) guidance, probably explains why the chief medical officer Professor Chris Whitty looks like he might bash his head against the lectern every time he is asked about it.
 
This is a British disease. We make up rules where none exist. If we are to survive this pandemic as a nation we have got to stop painting by numbers and engage our brains.

OKUK
OKUK
5 years ago

The “educide” of a whole generation who are at virtually no risk from the virus cannot be justified.
 
The government should have stated quite clearly that primary schools would be returning to normal functioning and that secondary schools would return with some social distancing and protection for the vulnerable – the obese and the diabetic for instance.
 
Any teachers not wishing to serve in schools in such circumstances would be given a year’s salary to retrain for something else. Otherwise only valid medical certification would be accepted as a reason to absent from school. Any gaps to be plugged by volunteer teachers (ex teachers, persons with relevant experience etc.) If the teaching unions try to sabotage the plan, organise an Emergency Referendum on the matter.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Anonymous
Anonymous
5 years ago
Reply to  OKUK

Why not a month’s notice?! A year’s notice is far too generous to teachers who don’t understand that they’re probably more at risk from a career length exposure to the annual flu, even if they’ve had the vaccine.

OKUK
OKUK
5 years ago

Where is djaustin tonight? Never responded to my challenge for him/her to explain why full on early lockdown Belgium has done so badly (a third more deaths per million than the UK).
 
I’ve seen that pattern of behaviour before on forums. It’s a typical Remainiac tactic in the Brexit debates. Fly in, make some assertions that sounds plausibly factual and then fly out quickly without responding in detail to counter-arguments. It’s also a tactic used by the notorious Maxincony at Biased BBC.
 
The aim is to demoralise, to confuse and to sow division. Also, the claim to expertise (in this case mathematical modelling) was a classic trope.
 
 
 

OKUK
OKUK
5 years ago
Reply to  OKUK

He seems to have similar hours to Maxincony….

OKUK
OKUK
5 years ago
Reply to  OKUK

Or she I should say…or ze even.

djaustin
djaustin
5 years ago
Reply to  OKUK

Largely the same reasons as the UK. Incapacity to test, coupled with a failure to contain in the nursing home sector. Belgium locked down a week before the UK. The plot I;ve attached shows mortality in the 65+ age group and that the decline in mortality in Belgium has been more rapid than the UK. Denmark by contrast seems to be even more of an outlier they locked down a week earlier than Belgium.
 
BE 1219 cases 10 deaths at lockdown – 11.5M – 0.86 deaths/M
UK 6650 cases 359 deaths at lockdown – 66M – 5.4 deaths/M
DE 804 cases 0 deaths at lockdown – 5.8M – 0 deaths/M
 
Deaths lag behind cases and are the signal of what is to follow on a geometric progression.
 

Capture.JPG
OKUK
OKUK
5 years ago
Reply to  djaustin

Yep you really are a BSer aren’t you?
 
Your claim was that failure to impose and early lockdown created the UK’s death toll from Covid.
 
That claim is pure BS as shown by the fact that early lockdown Belgium has the worst Covid death rate in the world.
 
You refuse to acknowledge that fact and instead treat us to irrelevant mood music data that might convince Mail and Mirror readers but here you’re up against people with a bit more nouse, so sorry mate doesn’t work. You didn’t make a claim about deaths in over 65s, you made a claim about deaths in all age groups.
 
Stop the BS and admit that Belgium – that had an early lockdown – has the worst death rate in the world from Covid.

A Reader
A Reader
5 years ago
Reply to  OKUK

Not sure why you are focused with Belgium is but as has been widely reported the way they record care home deaths is different to most other countries and leads to a higher number. Here is the first link I found on it:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/coronavirus-belgium-death-toll-lockdown-trump-who-uk-spain-italy-a9494186.html
 
I don’t personally think that the lockdown makes much different to overall deaths for several reasons, but Belgium is not a good example to use.

djaustin
djaustin
5 years ago
Reply to  OKUK

And Norway? Finland? Denmark? Germany? Greece? As I stated Belgium has largely suffered the same fate as the U.K. an epidemic of the elderly spread via nursing home and hospitals. Belgium have counted covid19 deaths differently to the U.K. and elsewhere (their official data explicitly includes COVID19 deaths in nursing homes and hospitals and ours and others does not include nursing homes – about 50% of our deaths). The plot of excess mortality is one means of adjusting for this difference.

Based on that scale, on the 65+ age group, who account for 90% of all excess mortality, the U.K. has the largest deviation from the normal expected number of deaths in Europe. Do you know how extraordinary a Z-score of 40 is? Or the likelihood of such a finding by chance (known as a P value)? How do you account for the same lack of signal in other countries? Are there any common features that may explain a lack of mortality in Finland, Norway and Denmark, but a significant increase in their neighbor Sweden?

swedenborg
swedenborg
5 years ago
Reply to  djaustin

I think I will answer this question the last time about death rate Covid-19 in Sweden compared to their neighbours. We all agree that the deaths are mainly in care homes not in the community. Sweden has a larger often double size care homes than the other countries Sweden has a “dedicated” home care for elderly but more visits than 4 times daily usually places the clients in their terminal life in care homes where the survival time is average 6 months Sweden has accelerated the privatization and other measure to rationalize the care of the elderly i.e reducing the resources for the elderly much more than the other countries Sweden has seen an enormous loss of trained nurses to Norway where they are paid three times the wages in Sweden Sweden has the largest immigrant community in the Nordic countries and the worst integrated. Sweden has, especially in the large cities, a badly paid care staff, often not well trained, sometimes semi illiterate, barely understanding Swedish, and a changing of staff all the time. Sweden instituted a late prohibition, 1st April, of visits to care homes.   Naturally, everybody knows about the problem, but political correctness means you are… Read more »

djaustin
djaustin
5 years ago
Reply to  swedenborg

The separation of health and social care in he UK has had largely the same effect. That some nursing home workers might move between homes seems to have been neglected. Not having testing capacity has exacerbated the problem.

Annie
Annie
5 years ago
Reply to  OKUK

Don’t sorry. We are neither demoralised nor confused. We are sceptics, remember?

grammarschoolman
grammarschoolman
5 years ago
Reply to  OKUK

That’s a question you should be putting to Ferguson, rather urgently.

Peter Thompson
Peter Thompson
5 years ago

This is from Professor Fergusson’s testimony today before the science and technology select committee.
 
” we didn’t anticipate that it’s very common for [care home] staff to work in more than one facility, and that accelerated the spread of the infection from one care home to another.”
 
This to me summarises in a nutshell the ivory tower existence of these SAGE members. Most medics could have told him many carers especially overseas ones work ” bank ” shifts and you will often see the same smiling Phillipino or Romanian faces working in several local care homes.
 
Because of such stupid ignorance we have ruined the well being of millions in this nation.

OKUK
OKUK
5 years ago
Reply to  Peter Thompson

Yes – unforgiveable ignorance.
 
And many are Vietnamese slave labourers who pay the bulk of their salary to the gang master just as do nail bar workers. But no one cares about our labour laws being trampled on.

mjr
mjr
5 years ago
Reply to  OKUK

mmm – slavery; it still exists but as the narrative is not 200 year old whites enslaving blacks the BLM movement and inparticularly the woke snowflake white middle class youth that ignorantly follow this movement ignore modern day slavery… and no doubt are avid users of the nail bars or happly smoke the cannabis tended by vietnamese kids in suburban cultivation houses

Tom Blackburn
5 years ago
Reply to  Peter Thompson

Didn’t anticipate the VERY COMMON incidence that people come in and out of care homes. Why is nobody in MSM asking these very simple questions?

Invunche
Invunche
5 years ago
Reply to  Peter Thompson

Ferguson is as thick as two very short planks.

It’s evident in every absurd statement or prediction that he makes.

It’s not unusual for the odd thicko to make waves in academia but it is odd to do it in a place that has (had?) the prestige of Imperial.

I can only assume that he is a grant winning machine, because he sure isn’t there for his insight.

Invunche
Invunche
5 years ago
Reply to  Invunche

Ha, scrolled down and Kendrick has also indicated that this is the case

https://drmalcolmkendrick.org/2015/06/18/conflict-of-interest-not-just-about-money/

See, this is the problem when you introduce fees into academia and turn them essentially into businesses. You need to balance the books and need more investment to keep students paying those fees.

Then you get bad scientists with bad science doing dubious work for external “donors” but hey! They pays the bills!

This is all aside. Ferguson is clearly a fool and the government should never have had him anywhere near Sage.

matt
5 years ago

Can anybody help here? Google and Wikipedia are not really working for me. I’m trying to get a timeline of when lockdown started in Italy, Spain, France, Germany and when relaxations happened and what was relaxed.

Mark
5 years ago
Reply to  matt

I have the following list in my notes from when I was researching lockdown dates versus death peaks a while back. Unfortunately I didn’t record the source, so it’s perhaps of little use. I’ll see if I can find where I got them from.
 
Mandatory national lockdowns
 
Spain 14/3
 
UK 23/3
 
Hungary 28/3
 
Singapore 7/4
 
Belgium 17/3
 
Germany 20/3 bavaria variable by state
 
Czech Republic 16/3
 
France 16/3
 
Ireland 27/3
 
Norway 12/3
 
Denmark 11/3
 
Italy 10/3 (local from Feb)

OKUK
OKUK
5 years ago
Reply to  Mark

So my recollection was right that Belgium was a pretty early lockdown – six days before the UK. And they have the highest death rate in the world.

JohnB
JohnB
5 years ago
Reply to  OKUK

Does anyone know the state of 5G rollout in Belgium ?

Awkward Git
Awkward Git
5 years ago
Reply to  JohnB

Have look at this website:
 
https://www.speedtest.net/ookla-5g-map
 
A while back I received this with the coronavirus hotspots superimposed on it and there was about a 85% correlation match. Deleted it though when I cleared out my e-mails though.
 
Princess Cruises are also the leader in 5G at sea and have major networks on their ships – I think the Diamond Princess has over 1500 wi-fi access points on it.
 
Read some of the articles on State of the Nation, Radiation Dangers, Arthur Firstenberg, bibliotecapleyades, Von Pohl, the US embassies in Moscow (1950s) and Cuba (2016), the DARPA Area Denial Weapon System and so on if you are interested in EMFs and their adverse effects on humans. It;s a dark, deep rabbit hole.

Awkward Git
Awkward Git
5 years ago
Reply to  JohnB

John B,
 
You ever noticed whenever you try to mention 5G out come the thumbs down, bad reviews etc almost instantly and in the MSM it won’t get posted even on the unmoderated common boards?
 
Put a complaint into OFCOM about the censorship of and discussion on 5G but no reply, as expected.
 
Trolls, social media censorship and 77th working to stop any meaningful debate so it must be hitting a raw nerve.
 
Truth Passes Through Three Stages: First, It Is Ridiculed. Second, It Is Violently Opposed. Third, It Is Accepted As Self-Evident 
 
 

JohnB
JohnB
5 years ago
Reply to  Awkward Git

Yep, probably the 77th earning some dosh via ‘industry sponsorship’ or somesuch.

Farinances
Farinances
5 years ago
Reply to  OKUK

This is very interesting to me, and tickles that part of my brain that makes me think lockdowns actually lead to a worse death rate.

Saved To Death
Saved To Death
5 years ago
Reply to  OKUK

That’s if you presume their death with covid figures to have any real meaning and to be comparable. In terms of excess all cause mortality at least the UK and Spain are worse https://www.euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps/
 
Maybe they did happen to have deaths from all other causes dip substantially as everybody started dying from covid – or perhaps the covid associated death counts are essentially meaningless.

matt
5 years ago
Reply to  Mark

So my recollection is right. We’re a couple -to-three weeks behind going in and everyone else is coming out. And we’re still here.

?

Mark
5 years ago
Reply to  matt

I’d suggest that compared to most other countries we Brits currently have a particularly dysfunctional political, social and cultural elite.

matt
5 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Having lived in two other European countries, I’m not sure I completely agree with you. Maybe I just wasn’t paying enough attention at the time.

Mark
5 years ago
Reply to  matt

I probably wouldn’t have agreed with myself on this a year ago, but at the moment it looks to me as though we are markedly lacking in coronapanic dissent and in recovering common sense compared to other countries, but it might be just as matter of perspective.

Saved To Death
Saved To Death
5 years ago
Reply to  Mark

I am not sure the general public are any better. Out of a population of 60 million there is really only a handful of people here. Considering how few places there are for lockdown sceptics to discuss things that does not seem to bode to well.
 
The hardest part of this for me to accept is not the actions of government but how the British public has been so eager to liver in tyranny and violate each others natural rights.

Awkward Git
Awkward Git
5 years ago
Reply to  Saved To Death

Speaking to people when out and about the ones who are most likely coming to be unbelievers do not know there is a sceptic community out in interweb land.
 
I try and point them in the right direction and to real independent news sites.
 
It’s never mentioned in the MSM, searching the interweb turns up all sorts of things but only specific phrases etc leads to sceptic land, other than that you get directed to act-checkers who have been thoroughly debunked over their abilities and independence, BBC and other MSM, pro-lockdown crap and idiots on twatter and farcebook.

paulito
paulito
5 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Spain is effectively being run by a gang of crusty SJWs who won 35 seats at the last election. Imagine having BLM zealots at the heart of government to get an idea where Spain’s at.

Awkward Git
Awkward Git
5 years ago
Reply to  Mark

After living around the world working on all 5 continents over 33 years I’ll say all governments are dysfunctional.
 
Our’s is just a bit ahead of the rest.

Poppy
Poppy
5 years ago
Reply to  matt

Yes, I’m just as confused as you. Our lockdown also wasn’t as strict as places like Spain/Italy, where exercise was banned and police enforced it a lot more vigorously, so I would assume that, based on the original justification for lockdown (slowing the spread) with a less-strict lockdown like the UK, the virus would have spread more quickly in the community and we would have caught up with Italy, but the MSM have repeatedly said that we’ve somehow fallen behind Italy. Obviously we know that isn’t true – as has been stated by numerous commenters on this forum, the virus has become pretty much nosocomial now which is why the UK daily death toll remained stubbornly higher than other countries.

OKUK
OKUK
5 years ago
Reply to  matt

Could be a life’s work. Italy, Spain and Germany have strong regional or federal states which as in Scotland influence timings. I know in Northern Italy it was a very patchwork lockdown that started with individual cities and grew larger and more severe.

Mark
5 years ago
Reply to  matt

Looks like I got most of the information from this page, but it seems to be a constantly updating “current situation” page unfortunately so a lot of the info is gone:
 
https://www.businessinsider.com/countries-on-lockdown-coronavirus-italy-2020-3?r=US&IR=T

OKUK
OKUK
5 years ago
Reply to  Mark

The most interesting thing for me was how Southern Italy was hardly touched by the virus but in North Italy it was absolute hell – probably the worst part of Europe, worse than Belgium. We hear fatuous stuff about tourists. Don’t Chinese and other tourists go to Rome or Naples?   What was the real driver here?   Some people said it was poor air quality. Well yes the region is bad for that. But then, so is Athens, very similar. Greece has very little incidence.   Some said it was the mixing of elderly and young in the same household – but you get that in Greece as well.   I think we can’t discount the illegal Chinese work gang theory because many of those workers come from the Wuhan region, ,they are working illegally and won’t be known to the authorities if they have only mild symptoms. That then fits in with Spain which had a bad dose of it whereas Greece doesn’t.   The other interesting theory is BCG vaccination. John Hopkins University in the USA found a strong connection between low incidence and national BCG vaccination, which seemed to afford heightened protection. Greece does still have… Read more »

Bella
Bella
5 years ago
Reply to  OKUK

If I remember right Lombardy was the centre of Italy’s asbestos industry until quite recently so a lot of people there were already compromised in their breathing

OKUK
OKUK
5 years ago
Reply to  Bella

Maybe, maybe…but Poland had a lot of coal miners and their rate is low…
 
I’d be interested to know but I think with other pandemics like flu you don’t get such a huge – I do mean huge – variation in deaths per million. But I may be wrong.

jrsm
jrsm
5 years ago
Reply to  OKUK

Probably people in Greece and Southern Italy have a much higher exposure to the sun, and therefore higher vitamin D levels? I heard there were several 30º+ degree days in Greece in the Spring.

OKUK
OKUK
5 years ago
Reply to  jrsm

Vitamin D (or rather its absence) is definitely a relevant co-factor I think. But I am not sure you can read it across like that…after all Athens is pretty much at the same latitude as Madrid and Barcelona.

Mark
5 years ago
Reply to  jrsm

Early on I assumed this but it turns out vitamin d levels are not straightforwardly correlated with latitude, probably because of supplements and behavioural issues:
 
When mortality per million is plotted against latitude it can be seen that all countries that lie below 35 degrees North have relatively low mortality. Thirty-five degrees North also happens to be the latitude above which people do not receive sufficient sunlight to retain adequate vitamin D levels during winter. This suggests a possible role for vitamin D in determining outcomes from COVID-19.
There are outliers of course – mortality is relatively low in Nordic countries – but there vitamin D deficiency is relatively uncommon, probably due to widespread use of supplements. Italy and Spain, perhaps surprisingly, have relatively high prevalence of vitamin D deficiency. Vitamin D deficiency has also been shown to correlate with hypertension, diabetes, obesity, and ethnicity – all features associated with increased risk of severe COVID-19
 
COVID-19, vitamin D and latitude

Mark
5 years ago
Reply to  OKUK

So many potential variables in these comparisons, it’s pretty hard to form any strongly held opinion imo.

OKUK
OKUK
5 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Which leads to the conclusion: why do epidemiologists have such strong opinions?! lol

Saved To Death
Saved To Death
5 years ago
Reply to  OKUK

I imagine because it pays well.

Farinances
Farinances
5 years ago
Reply to  OKUK

On Greece- there’s a few reasons I think.   1) They spend their entire lives outside, even in winter 2) They don’t really have care homes – the elderly are looked after at home in multigenerational households. You may think that this would be a bad thing, but it must be way better than the care home/hospital environments if we’re going with the strong nocosom…. theory. Italy and Spain have a lot of care homes and sheltered housing for the elderly, even though they also live in multigenerational households a lot. 3) They are a very healthy population – even the old. I think they are way healthier in old age than the Spanish or the Italians. Obviously there’s the diet, but more than that, they are extremely active into old age. There are many people in their 70s and 80s who run businesses on the islands where I regularly visit. (Lesbos and Spetse). These businesses often involve manual labour outdoors – fishing, sheep farming etc. They are less likely to have the old age comorbidities of our elderly or even the Italians or Spanish. And yes, they smoke like chimneys – which could be a positive factor. 4) No… Read more »

Farinances
Farinances
5 years ago
Reply to  Farinances

Also… maybe a distinct lack of Chinese tourism. I have never seen ANY Chinese/Asian tourists outside Athens. There’s definitely no influx of Chinese workers into Greece like there is in Italy for instance.

OKUK
OKUK
5 years ago
Reply to  Farinances

There are no illegal Chinese work gangs for sure. Not sure about a lack of Chinese tourism…I would have thought Athens might be on the intinerary along with Venice….but Venice actually had a much lower incidence than you might expect.

Farinances
Farinances
5 years ago
Reply to  OKUK

I have never in all my years seen an Asian tourist in Greece outside Athens. And I’ve been every year since I was 2. Granted I spent most of time on the islands, but…..

OKUK
OKUK
5 years ago
Reply to  Farinances
  1. No evidence cited.
  2. No evidence cited.
  3. No evidence cited.
  4. How big is Milan? Smaller than Athens. Irrelevant observation.
  5. Low density population? USA has much lower density population than any major European country. Germany has plenty of dense urban settlements. You’re not making sense.
  6. No evidence cited. Are you claiming that Chinese tourists who visit Northern Italy in wintewr don’t visit Rome as well as part of their itinerary?
  7. Most people in Croatia – the vast majority – live on the mainland! But despite being bang next door to Northern Italy they have a v. low incidence.
Farinances
Farinances
5 years ago
Reply to  OKUK

I never said there was evidence. I said it was my opinion.

Annie
Annie
5 years ago
Reply to  Farinances

How about Scotland? Lots of islands, and Highland communities very scattered.
Quite different weather, of course, and maybe more inter-island mobility? And Greece doesn’t have the Scourge of the Sturgeon, which is enough to make anybody ill.

Bart Simpson
Bart Simpson
5 years ago
Reply to  Annie

As far as I know, Scotland’s main problem apart from the generally unhealthy diet is the weather. I lived there for 10 years and the running joke there is that you can get four seasons in one day. The sun barely makes a presence so much so that even in July and August some people would turn the heating on at night because it can get very cold and sometimes even wet!

Squire Western
Squire Western
5 years ago

Boris is not proving to be a great educational hero. His lockdown has already put his old prep school, Ashdown House, out of business and has been widely reported. The journalists all seem to have missed the fact that his daughter Stephanie is a current pupil at the school and will now have to move.

Tom Blackburn
5 years ago

Anyone know anything about cancelling their TV license? Thinking of doing it for a couple of months just to make a point but cannot be bothered if it will result in multiple knocks on the door during that time

OKUK
OKUK
5 years ago
Reply to  Tom Blackburn

I am not a refusenik but from everything I’ve seen online the door knocking doesn’t start for several months. You get the threatening letters first, even if you’ve informed them you don’t want a licence! It’s a good idea though. What if millions of people wrote to them saying “We’re taking a two month break. Hope you don’t mind.” lol Collective organisational nervous breakdown…

JohnB
JohnB
5 years ago
Reply to  Tom Blackburn

Not had a tv licence for over 10 years – never a knock on the door. We are in rural Sussex. Loads and loads of meaningless letters though.
 
Someone else on here (lives in a town/city) did say they had been visited though. Crapita (for it is they) have no powers at all, and can be asked to leave immediately.

JohnB
JohnB
5 years ago
Reply to  JohnB

Wow, a downvote for the above. 🙁 Outraged Capita employee ?

Jonathan Castro
Jonathan Castro
5 years ago
Reply to  Tom Blackburn

It won’t. I cancelled mine a few years ago and haven’t had any knocks.

Kung Flu Lou
Kung Flu Lou
5 years ago
Reply to  Tom Blackburn

I’m in London. Cancelled over 4 years ago. No knock on the door. Too many people to bother.

Farinances
Farinances
5 years ago
Reply to  Tom Blackburn

You can fill in the online form and notify them you don’t want a licence any more.
 
BUT – from wha tI’ve heard it doesn’t matter if you inform them or not, they may still harass you with the letters and apparently this form includes the proviso that they “can turn up at your house and check you really don’t need a licence”.
 
I wouldn’t bother tellling them anything. Just cancel and don’t engage at all with any harassments they may throw at you. They’re just Crapita – they have no legal authority.

DoubtingDave
5 years ago
Reply to  Farinances

Not like the old days when The GPO had vans and could tell if you had a telly, now Capita have to send someone to ask if you have a telly, seems like a backward step.
 
Bit like we’ve lost the technology to send someone to the moon.

Saved To Death
Saved To Death
5 years ago
Reply to  Tom Blackburn

I have not had a license for a long time. The TV licensing bullies may turn up unless you fill out a form
 
https://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/check-if-you-need-one/topics/telling-us-you-dont-need-a-tv-licence
 
At first I did not wish to do this but they really are bullies and would often intimidate my wife and she might even have let them in the house – once I filled this in they send a two year no license license and the bullies dont turn up for two years. They do return quite promptly when it expires so you just fill the form in again.
 
An effort well worth it to not fund the BBC.

CarrieAH
CarrieAH
5 years ago
Reply to  Saved To Death

Thanks for that. I never watch the BBC anyway or any live tv come to that.

Bart Simpson
Bart Simpson
5 years ago
Reply to  Tom Blackburn

Never had one. Never had a knock on the door or letters, used to have the latter when I lived in a hall of residence and we were told just to ignore them as my hall was covered by one TV licence paid by the managing company.

HawkAnalyst
HawkAnalyst
5 years ago

Science behind two-metre rule ‘does not consider economic devastation it brings’
 
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/10/science-behind-two-metre-rule-does-not-consider-economic-devastation/
 
 
Prof Dingwall told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme the study was “problematic” because it did not look at the economic consequences of having a larger distance requirement.
“I think it’s a question of relative risk,” he said. “Even the problematic Lancet study that was published last week was really saying you’re moving from a tiny risk at two metres to a very small risk at one metre.
“You have to set that against all the other harms that are being done by the economic devastation that is wreaked by the two-metre rule, the deaths that will be attributable to the lockdown itself, and the social and economic disruption that is causing.”

OKUK
OKUK
5 years ago
Reply to  HawkAnalyst

A risk of what? Getting the virus, which is a two day sniffle if you are healthy. If you are vulnerable then you should perhaps not be out and about anyway.

Farinances
Farinances
5 years ago
Reply to  OKUK

Now the tide is beginning to turn, I’m getting this a lot from people I talk to.
 
“B-B-b-b-b-b-b-b-but, but there’s STILL A RISK!”
 
Yes indeed. There’s also a risk an asteroid will drop from the sky tomorrow and kill us all. How annoyed would you be if that happened and you’d spent the past six months cowering in your basement, afraid of the common cold?

jrsm
jrsm
5 years ago
Reply to  Farinances

Well, people have been hit by meteorites, and being inside didn’t help them:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylacauga_(meteorite)

Farinances
Farinances
5 years ago
Reply to  jrsm

Yeah that’s why noone cowers in their house trying to protect themselves from a natural phenomena we are virtually powerless to avoid.
 
Oh.

Saved To Death
Saved To Death
5 years ago
Reply to  OKUK

Also getting a virus helps keep your immune system prepared to fight different viruses in the future. Has anyone considered the risk of not getting the virus?

Farinances
Farinances
5 years ago
Reply to  Saved To Death

Yes. Not that I’ve been actively ‘trying’ to get it, but I’ve definitely been hoping I’ve already had it, and I’m certainly exposing myself to all physical contact with fellow humans I can possibly indulge in. It is better to get it in the long run, and it’s better to get it mildly with some passing exposure to a friendly stranger.

CarrieAH
CarrieAH
5 years ago
Reply to  Saved To Death

Precisely. I keep my immune system fed everyday as I work with animals, muck, dirt and their poo on my smallholding. Outdoors – lots of vitamin D. It’s likely why I rarely get a cold, last had real flu 18 years ago and aren’t even registered with a GP.

TJS123
TJS123
5 years ago

Has everyone seen the release from Musgrave Park Hospital in Somerset – there was a “spike” in numbers causing people to panic about the R number. The cause was a faulty machine giving false positives and 78 people who tested positive are being contacted and retested. How many other machines? https://somersetft.nhs.uk/?news=issue-affecting-some-covid-19-test-results-for-some-inpatients-at-musgrove-park-hospital&fbclid=IwAR0SFMT11wLi7Tta1npuWajOx7JBjnAefCVMiZE5LAKQ_6v5L1iKoOSiuEA

OKUK
OKUK
5 years ago

So djaustin you’re out and about again. Do you want to engage in meaningful discussion or just spray all over the forum?
 
Can you explain Belgium’s much higher death rate from Covid compared with the UK – something like a third higher, despite having an earlier lockdown?